Realm of Mirrors - Game Over

[Shin]

my coby vote was irritation and wanting him to actually post, to show that no you can't just sit there and expect to get by in the game. I thought everyone knew it was obvious that i wasn't voting him for scum intent >_>. Didn't really think anything was going to change with shin regardless if i had my vote on him or not.

@shin yes i don't have conviction in my case but who else do you expect me to vote then at that point? Why can't town have a lack of conviction? Also where did you say that you didn't want to advocate a lynch for via since people didn't feel like it? Also if we even assume that coby is scum anyway scumbuddies are perfectly fine letting him not do anything considering no one is paying attention to him lol, i.e the best outcome. There's also a chance he isn't even communicating with his scumbuddies. We could run around with circles in this all day. Also is SB scum? Also I use also a lot.

Another thing that bugs me about shin is that he seems to support me when the oppurtunity looks good (i.e the via trio vote) but then gets cold feet when he knows i'll look bad. The rest of my shin case can be summed up as this. While his reasoning makes sense the way he goes about it feels bad to me. Scum can have perfectly fine cases too otherwise they'd never be townread in games lol.

That's called playing mafia. If something looks fishy, I'll call it out. The initial trio of votes seemed weird so I said something. Then your case looked bad so I also said something. Opinions in mafia can change.

With Coby, it's the context of the vote that looks bad. You're completely ignoring how you made a massive post from me, then leaped across the vote Coby. I'm not saying that we should leave him be, but I think we'd need to be cautious before making a wagon solely on that one post.

I've had suspicions about SB, although I've said that they're not horrendously strong. He's probably somewhere in the middle, leaning slightly more towards scum than town.

[CT075]

"hey let's kill the guy who hasn't played in a year, that'll be a good time! it's not like he wanted to play or anything!"

mafia sucks

(jk ilu all)

Edited December 31, 2015 by CT075

[Sunwoo]

I see. I could have contributed more and pushed Via more, true, if I had taken more time to really look over everything he said later and pick at it.

But I did not, and now Via has subbed out, so I am unable to make up for that. Do you still think that I am avoiding pushing cases, though? I think my recent post is relatively diverse in scumreads, which I'd ask you to take into account if you wish to maintain a case on me.

I … don't think you're quite getting what I mean by not pushing cases, and it's not the same thing as having a diversity of scum reads. When I say you're not pushing scum reads, I mean that once you drop a vote on someone you don't seem to talk about it unless someone else brings it up and wants to discuss it. Your vote's currently on Junko, which means you want him lynched the most, right? What if someone doesn't agree with you, or doesn't think Junko is worth voting before certain other people? How are you going to try to convince them that your case is right? THAT is what I feel I am not seeing, and why I say you aren't pushing your cases.

Also, I really don't like that you seem to come off defensive about my vote on you. Yes, no one wants to be voted, but I'm the only person who thinks you're scum right now or at least sees you as voteworthy. It kind of feels like you put more effort into dissecting my case on you than pushing your strongest scum read(s). Also, the last sentence reads as a threat!

I'm not sure why you felt that Quote would get shot as well. Quote was an end-of-the-day wagon and a very likely lynch possibility, and people suspected them. People who look townie and unlikely to get lynched get shot, not end-of-the-day wagons. The only exception I've seen to this is Prims in Inception mafia, and that's because Prims is Prims.

Overall, I don't like how GP seems more focused on self-preservation more than pushing her reads with more conviction, since only one person is voting her. Vote stays.

I read through Oceanbourne's content, and I figured out what my problem with him is. On the surface, his posts look good, but it also feels like he's not really /going into depth/, if you get what I mean. He does give some thoughts, but on a whole a lot of his posts come off a bit "reporter-ish", like he's summarizing it and giving not-very-in-depth thoughts. Which seems like he is trying to look good but avoid real commitment? He doesn't even have a vote down right now. It makes me uneasy enough, but I'd call it a weaker scum read and wouldn't vote him yet over just that.

@boron err i'm kind of confused with your case. If we look at GP's posts (the serious ones that is) she makes a thoughts posts then votes cam. you respond with your post then she responds back. Then a bunch of posts later she votes via. You say she didn't contribute anything but idk what she could've have contributed?

Regarding her not pushing via much i don't really see it. She says that basically via's posts are a bunch of filler. Why doesn't this apply to shin as well since he pretty much responded with one sentence which i'm guessing is just the same thing GP said just with less words.

[Sunwoo]

Wow, fuck this site. It ate everything after Junko's quote. Give me a bit to rewrite all that shit. Fuck Serenes Forest.

[Sunwoo]

I actually want to cry right now I had so much written after that quote

Okay, you know, what, you're getting the condensed version.

Response to Junko: GP was more concerned with getting into a semantics debate with me than rereading the thread for more or clearer reads, or questioning other people who were present about not-semantics stuff. While I'm partially at fault for the argument starting, I made an effort to question her about other things (such as an explanation for her read on you), and I'm kind of irritated at both you and her for not being able to understand something everyone else did and make a big deal about it. I'd say it's scummy misrep if I weren't convinced you two just have BBM-level reading skills.

Also, Shin may not have pushed his case on Quote as much as he should've, but he was at least actively engaging other people and contributing more than GP when she was around. GP's other major content in D1 was an argument with Izuhark over the whole "policy" vig thing, which was more defense against his vote on her and less actual scum hunting. Seems to have a priority of self-preservation over pushing scum reads.

Izuhark's meltdown is non-alignment indicative. I say this as someone who has had an embarrassingly big meltdown as scum. I have a problem with the stuff that came before the meltdown, the sheer lack of trying. This isn't necessarily townie, either, I had Shin exploit this for all its worth when we rolled scum together.

Zerosabers, good to see that you showed up, but you're going to need a lot more than that. What are some explanations for your reasonings?

Paper and SB role stuff: what I'm getting is that both Paper and SB targeted me, and Cam likely did too. Guys, I'm really not that interesting! If the options we get from this are SB is scum or there is a ninja, I'm more inclined to believe there is a ninja. SB does not read as scum. Also, Paperblade feels townie now that he's actually giving a fuck about the game.

Still reading Quoteslot/Refa as town, but Refa why is Zerosaber worse than everyone else over just his one post? How was that scummier than whatever everyone else had done?

Almost forget Elieson was in this game. He's hard to read due to sheer lack of doing much, but I'd put him as leaning scum due to sheer lack of doing much.

If there was anything else I said, then fuck it. I'm going to go file a complaint.

GP ≥ Junko >> Oceanbourne/Elieson >>> some people >>> SB > Paperblade = Cam

[Zerosabers]

Quick post sorry I can't be more active right now but I'm going out for New Years so I won't be around for today and probably some of tomorrow morning.

[Refa]

Still reading Quoteslot/Refa as town, but Refa why is Zerosaber worse than everyone else over just his one post? How was that scummier than whatever everyone else had done?

The slot wasn't scummier than Junk's at the time, I just wanted to push it because Junk had enough pressure on his end (and now I'm reading Junk as town so it all just kind of worked out in the end). Honestly, I'm not sure if Zerosabers is actually scummier than Oceanbourne (I'm more confident in the case but that's because I've analyzed all of the content that the slot has put out) but I'd feel comfortable voting either. The only other people I have issues with (Elie, Coby, Shin) haven't done enough to make me feel comfortable voting them or are Shin who is very hard to read! That said, going to change my vote because...

Quick post sorry I can't be more active right now but I'm going out for New Years so I won't be around for today and probably some of tomorrow morning.

It's useless where it is right now.

It's nice to know that you're unwilling to lynch Cam.

##Unvote

##Vote: Oceanbourne

[Paperblade]

Izhu was feeling down in his 4th post, where he responded to SB, and this permeates pretty much the rest of his posts. Do you think that mafia would have done that? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like his tone would be different if he was mafia

[Junk]

That's not what i mean shin. It's the fact that you decided to let the clarinets lynch happen when the person you were voting (via) had a decent chance of being lynched but you didn't really mention anything about them during the closing of D1 (unless you mentioned it somewhere, can't find it.) You justify this later on in D2

[Junk]

woops

[Sunwoo]

Izhu was feeling down in his 4th post, where he responded to SB, and this permeates pretty much the rest of his posts. Do you think that mafia would have done that? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like his tone would be different if he was mafia

I mean, I don't think it invalidates the possibility. I don't know Izuhark or Izuhark's meta very well, so as far as I know he could do it as mafia. I also have a problem with the tone of the exact same post you're discussing because it looks like appeal to emotion. I'm not unsympathetic, but why even bother showing up if you really weren't in the mood to play? The "I suck at mafia" spiel looks like an appeal to emotion to get people to back off because he's feeling bad. Which … isn't townie to me.

[Junk]

redo:

That's not what i mean shin. It's the fact that you decided to let the clarinets lynch happen when the person you were voting (via) had a decent chance of being lynched but you didn't really mention anything about them during the closing of D1 (unless you mentioned it somewhere, can't find it.) You justify this later on in D2

with the excuse that "people didn't feel like it". I don't see why you would have at least wanted to mention switching to via since there would be no harm done. If you really were a bit shaky on the clarinets wagon i don't see why not at least throw out a possible via option. What it looks like to me is that you decided to let the clarinets lynch happen then talk about me so that the lynch would happen and i'd look bad because of it. (yes it was fairly likely that the clarinets lynch would happen even if you asked for a via lynch but then that'd be fine since at least you were trying to advocate for the person you found scummy)

Regarding coby what do you suggest we do then? Also i don't really see how you can get noob town from that...

PEDIT: oh wait found the post that you did mention via but you were uncomfortable with how the wagon had built up for them as well. Still though don't see why you didn't ask for switching to them since they were still a read of yours. Same situation applies.

Think boron summarized better the initial feel i had about ocean's content in terms of it being "passive." This also reminds me that ocean had asked for specifics but i forgot! I'd say post 164 is a good pointer. Felt like you were more "conversational" if that makes any sense. I do feel that you when you voted via this feeling went away and it felt like you were actually pushing something.

@boron okay that makes more sense. I can see what you mean but just not really feeling it myself.

[Paperblade]

I think it's possible that someone could do that, but he continued on it until he subbed out, which means that at some point he decided it wasn't working and subbed? Or subbed for other reasons and kept up the facade. He wasn't under a ton of pressure so it's not like he chickened out, idk.

I also have to disagree that Shin was pushing his reads harder than GP. I've felt like Shin's changing of opinions don't really flow well. The individual posts look alright but when looked at together I don't like it. He says weird stuff like

I'd really prefer to swap to a Junko lynch, I know it's a massive turnaround but his reads have been pretty absent and seem to revolve entirely around survival. I'm not going to obstruct the Clarinets lynch (mostly because I'm not able to) but hopefully it'll provide a little information.

Which on its own looks okay... except Junko has been #2 on his scumreads if you look at who he's saying looks bad (#1 is Via/Refa). While he did post a list shortly after Junko first got wagoned early game, two of the people he listed as scummy (Elie/myself) he never pressured beyond asking me to elaborate on my SB read

Then today Refa subs in for Via who he wanted to lynch pretty badly, Refa just always look townie to him but hasn't done enough to quell his suspicions... and then he just forgets about that slot.

This actually bugs the fuck out of me

##Unvote, ##Vote: Shin

[Shin]

I'm up late, neat.

I've driven for about 4 hours straight and was woken up by a fire alarm, so I'm not necessarily going to posting super well. Paper, neither you or Eli have been particularly high profile, I can't really say much else.

I'll word more tomorrow!

[Sunwoo]

I'm going to a New Year's Eve party, so don't expect me to post again for the rest of today. See you all in 2016.

[Elieson]

hey guys promisign that I'll return tomorrow.

Happy 2016!

[Grace]

Need a sub for Coby. Contact me if you want the spot.

[Grace]

Freyjadour subs in for Coby, effective immediately. Edited January 1, 2016 by Curly Brace

[Green Poet]

Uh, GP? I'm pretty sure Via claimed.

Well shit. I just checked, and you're right. I'm going to take a bit to consider this. Content post coming within the next two hours as usual.

[Shin]

That's not what i mean shin. It's the fact that you decided to let the clarinets lynch happen when the person you were voting (via) had a decent chance of being lynched but you didn't really mention anything about them during the closing of D1 (unless you mentioned it somewhere, can't find it.) You justify this later on in D2

I'd gotten back from visiting family and had about 15 minutes to post before phase end. With ten minutes before deadline and nobody really willing to swap from Clarinets to Via/you. When I say I can't do anything to change the lynch, it's 7 minutes before phase end. Unless you're expecting everyone to suddenly obey me, I don't think much would have happened.

[Green Poet]

Zerosabers has a particular fixation on not putting people at L-1. Ocean vote is bad because putting someone at L-1 is not necessarily scummy and Zero doesn't look at the context of Ocean's vote or try to examine his intent when he did so

It's easy to find someone who made an L-1 vote and vote them on an arbitrary policy. It doesn't sit well with me at all that Zero is factually wrong in saying that Ocean didn't tell anyone his vote was L-1; his vote candidly says "THIS IS L-1" in caps

Too many of her reads are null/"they're too hard to read" while some of them translate into scumreads for unexplained reasons, while her townreads are unsupported by quotes and feel like they could have easily just as been arbitrarily picked. Feels like Zerosabers just wanted to fill up a listpost on the playerlist, and chose easy scumreads while repeating others' pre-established cases on said scumreads.

Paper points out in #410 that scum killing Cam does not necessarily implicate Junko, but rather could have been motivated by the lack of general suspicion on Cam. I see the logic in that. ofc that also may not matter if Cam and Boron were driven by not-mafia and Cam's NK was unintentional, or if Cam was vigged and NK was ???

In other words, the crumb trail of Cam's death is more tenuous to draw conclusions from than I originally assumed when casing Junko over it

Refa informing me that Via actually did claim prompts me to revise my previous statement: scum did not have an incentive to prioritize Via over Cam for the NK, which makes Cam's NK less unnatural and less likely to be because of Cam's posting.

Responding to Boron's case is losing purpose. I am only able to, and have been repeatedly responding in, one of two ways:

"no, I don't feel that I actually did X scummy thing"

"yes, I did do that because I am uninformed town and not a perfect scumhunter."

This has only led to either misleading town!Boron to tunnel more, or feeding scum!Boron more to misconstrue

Paper has been pretty sporadic on SB reads but town!Paper is likely due to increased activity and read elaboration

If Cam and Boron were driven then SB is less likely to be Cam's killer than a scum ninja. Town!SB is likely by virtue of this.

Coby subbing out makes me believe town!Coby due to the likelihood of force sub and consequential unlikelihood of scum!Coby active lurking.

Reading Ocean's ISO gives me scum vibes because he looks like he's attributing much of his behavior to the necessity of end-of-day consolidation rather than voluntarily pushing people for cases of his own or showing much initiative/desire to lynch scumreads

e.g. this unvote is scummy because it tosses control of his vote to the circumstances of the deadline wagons and disavows responsibility for voting/discussing his own scumreads

##Unvote

##Vote: Zerosabers

[Shin]

I think it's possible that someone could do that, but he continued on it until he subbed out, which means that at some point he decided it wasn't working and subbed? Or subbed for other reasons and kept up the facade. He wasn't under a ton of pressure so it's not like he chickened out, idk.

I also have to disagree that Shin was pushing his reads harder than GP. I've felt like Shin's changing of opinions don't really flow well. The individual posts look alright but when looked at together I don't like it. He says weird stuff like

Which on its own looks okay... except Junko has been #2 on his scumreads if you look at who he's saying looks bad (#1 is Via/Refa). While he did post a list shortly after Junko first got wagoned early game, two of the people he listed as scummy (Elie/myself) he never pressured beyond asking me to elaborate on my SB read

Then today Refa subs in for Via who he wanted to lynch pretty badly, Refa just always look townie to him but hasn't done enough to quell his suspicions... and then he just forgets about that slot.

This actually bugs the fuck out of me

##Unvote, ##Vote: Shin

Refa plays vastly different to Via and I always misread Refa. There have been games where he'd been scum all along and he'd been my strongest townread! A Via lynch wasn't going to happen, for some reason people felt like listening to Via when they begged not to be lynched. I'm still forming an opinion on Refa, I don't see scum making a mistake like that with regards to SB's role. I can totally see how I've not really paid much attention to people, but it's more through having other stuff to focus on rather than outright ignoring.

[SB.]

Don't have much time this morning (he says at 12:11) so I'm just skimming, will read more closely once I get back.

Junko, elaborate on GP's meta please?

I was thinking "ok Elieson is a maflord" literally right before he saw his post. I'm fine with giving him the rest of the day to get in gear but I want him dead before *YLO if he doesn't step it up soon.

Paperblade's Shin case on looks good at a glance. Shin, what's your opinion on Refa right now?

Manix pls post votals and time check

[Grace]

Votals 2.1

Oceanbourne (3): SB, Zerosabers, Refa

Shin (3): Freyjadour, commie scum, Paperblade

Green Poet (1): Sunwoo

commie scum (1): Shin

Zerosabers (1): Green Poet

Not Voting (2): Oceanbourne, Elieson

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to hammer and 3 to lynch at deadline. There are about 34 hours left in the phase.

also re-fixed the end of D1 votals. again.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Curly Brace

[solrocknroll]

Alright, so here's what I've got reads wise:

Shin is really hard to read as always. He jokes around and plays in a way where you can't tell what his alignment could possibly be. I'll put him under undetermined. I don't really see Shin as either yet.

Elieson has been justifiably busy, but that makes it nearly impossible to pass any judgement due to a lack of any evidence.

I would say that based on how Junko has acted thus far, that they are town. I can sort of tell based on how they seemed rather quick to change votes in the first round, which has been mentioned before, but also that they never acted like scum when they were under fire in the first day before everyone changed their votes to Clarinets.

GP is Mayor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a guaranteed town slot? If so, then they're automatically town for me.

Refa acts completely different to Via. That's certain. But Via tended to beg people not to lynch them. I'm not really understanding why. Granted, it never turned into a OMGUS, but it certainly looked vaguely suspicious. It could just have easily been desperation or inexperience, but it also could have been a scum begging against lynch. I don't think Refa has too many tells either way, but because she shares a role with Via, I'll put her as looking slightly scummy right now.

Zerosabers seemed like they had rather flimsy reasoning for their reads. I don't really think that could mean anything, but they haven't posted all too much. I think that scum is probably a good place to place them.

Paperblade has very strong reasonings and tends to make logical decisions. Their vote for Shin can be easily justified based in how he acts, and their explanations have been overall sound. They seem to read as town to me thanks to this.

I don't have any big impressions on Sunwoo yet. I couldn't justify any choice without more analysing, so they go into the middle.

SB doesn't seem very suspicious. He has solid justifications and accusations. For instance, I certainly agree that Elieson could have been Mafia due to the infrequent updating. He hasn't really made unjust reads for the most part.

Oceanborne has the strongest scum vibe for me. He tends to not provide very good reasoning and is prone to jumping on a bandwagon at the last second. He has posted regularly, but hasn't justified really anything. He hasn't even voted for this round yet, implying that he could just be waiting to find an easy lynch target. Either way, I don't feel anything but scummy vibes from him.

Scummy: Refa, Oceanborne, Zerosabers

Null: Shin, Elieson, Sunwoo

Town: GP, Paperblade, Junko, SB

I honestly feel that voting Shin is too premature. Oceanborne also has the strongest scum read to me. As such, I'll change my vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: Oceanborne