Blademaster!

If Basilio is paired with Flavia, he either has the same or one point less speed depending on if they have a C support or not when compared with Flavia paired with Basilio(the example Redwall used).

And Basilio can't do the same without needing an arms scroll paired with Flavia why?

I did, since I was able to, and it let him be able to pretty much ORKO anything, and OHKO any flying unit I came across. Considering I just had that arms scroll for those last few chapters, it was actually pretty well used and I was happy with the results. It's just more reasoning to say why he should be above Flavia.

So the conclusion of my poorly explained run with Nowi/Donnel/Tharja (Please remember that I didn't use rescue to speed up clears, with the exception of two chapters : Severa and Tiki: Conclusions: Tharja: Since I didn't really do much with Tharja this run, as far as Nostanking went she could die occasionally, but for the most part could just lure in enemies and deal chip damage for some extra kills. I'm unsure about how well she can kill magic units later on. Frankly, Manakete tanking > Nos tanking, since Manakete's are cheaper and just don't take damage/ever have to worry about dying. Nowi: Interceptor will probably get better results than me, but frankly, depending on what is considered brisk runs, the only things holding Nowi back are a kinda slow start for what I argue is just two chapters (8/9), the need to give her tonics in early chapters, and the fact that she has 6 mov/can't fly, however this last point can be fixed by giving her a second seal to make her a griffon rider later in the game. By the time you reach chapter 12, she can have an A support with Gregor, and with consistent leveling, she just won't take damage for the rest of the game, and any damage she does take is negligible due to how high her HP is. She'll arguably be the best mage killer in the game due to her high res and lack of wind weakness, and really only has trouble killing Swordmasters, Generals, and Aegis Paladins on rare occasions without proper dual support. The ability to reclass back into Manakete is just slightly less broken than Veteran, as she'll gain a tremendous amount of exp since Manakete is counted as an unpromoted class (as you can see, I reclassed her back into the class twice due to how much exp she can get). I don't think any unit other than Avatar and Tiki can hope to come close to matching her statwise in No grind, just because of how much exp she'll gain, and honestly, if Panne and Avatar Lucina can be considered S tier, I'd argue Nowi can as well, solely because she just can't die and gains so much exp without ever having to worry about any kind of weakness (I only remember encountering one wyrmslayer hero in chp 23, and Nowi only took 7 damage from him in a chapter where nothing else could hurt her). As a quick sum up of Nowi: Pros: -Fast Gregor Support (can reach A by chapter 12) -Arguably has the second fastest level up speed in the game -The best mage killer in the game -Becomes pretty much invincible around chapter 12, definitely becoming invincible by around chapter 18. -Can reliably kill almost all enemies without dual support attack; only Aegis Paladins, Generals, and Swordmasters give her some trouble -Always has 1-2 range Cons: -Slow start (Really only for two chapters imo and it isn't even hard to train her) -Needs Tonics for the first few chapters of use -Might need one of the four second seals before chapter 16 if she reaches level 30 -slightly expensive due to the cost of dragonstones (still cheaper than nostanking) -6mov/no flying for most of the game I can honestly see her as S tier material, but at the least she belongs in A. She just can't die. Additionally, I'd argue Tiki could go back up to B, unless the only thing that's keeping her in C is join time, since she's just a slightly less broken version of Nowi, except she has no downtime and a higher speed cap. Donnel: As far as making Donnel a Mercenary goes, this is a mistake: Fighter is better since it is more durable and can get hammers and axes with just one arms scroll. Donnel, while indeed helpful at times in late game (mine was a bit RNG screwed in most stats by ~3 points in str and res, 1 in skl and spd but had +3 hp), ultimately has terrible early game, decent midgame, and doesn't really do anything super special in late game when compared to your other units for the most part due to low weapon levels. Apptitude is nice, but it is nothing compared to the rate at which Manakete gain exp, and even after training Donnel so much, Tiki was still vastly superior as far as tanking and killing stuff went IMO. Ultimately, I don't think Donnel will ever become a unit better than Tiki even with training him, though perhaps comparing him to Tiki is unfair. The main reason for this is because Donnel, even with aptitude, still has subpar resistance, and Sol still isn't helping him out all that much. To sum up Donnel: Pros: -Aptitude -Stronger than most units by lategame -Can get Sol Cons: -Horrific earlygame -Need of one of the contested second seals (arguably the primary candidate for one of the first two when used though) -Never really becomes better than Tiki -Terrible resistance (barely better than most other units) makes him a bit on the more difficult side to tank with when compared to the Manaketes tl;dr Nowi is broken and should at least be in A, could probably be in S. Can't say much about Tharja atm. Donnel should stay where he is. Unexpected side notes: Tiki should go back to B unless join time is the only thing keeping her out of it since she's incredible as a unit. Basilo is definitely better than Flavia (rally str/armsscroll+yewfelle) imo.

In your playthrough, I suggest making Donnel a fighter. Making him a merc in mine gave less than favorable results in my run, and honestly I think he is better off as a Fighter just for more durability. Also, have fun with Nowi. She pretty much becomes unkillable by chapter 16 by anything that isn't a counter warrior.

But there's already a thread for that.

Cherche is really slow. Nowi has great Growths. Libra using Axes doesn't really hurt him since he can still use hammers, and he's probably just using almost every player phase rescuing, healing, or rallying. I don't see any problems with the turn counts you posted.

So... like any ordinary LTC run. Just set Brisk as less than 10 turns per chapter...

In my Lunatic run, Fred never dropped off as a viable unit for me, though that wasn't strictly LTC, just no grind. Then again, I had Avatar solo the rest of the game starting at chapter 23...

In my current run, Frederick is a level 3 Griffon Rider with 23 speed, and that's supposedly +1 over average for him at lvl 15 reclass from GK to GR. That's enough to let him not be doubled by anything on chapter 16, where the fastest enemies are Falco knights with 27 speed if they get speed +2. With Sumia, who gives him +8 speed at the moment, he still doubles the map, except Falco knights on the off chance they get spd+2. Hero's only have ~22 speed.

Costing less money has already been taken into account in the list... Anyway, @inui and Legault, if you guys really want to argue your point, just do a run using Donnel, post your turn counts, explain what you did with them and how they contributed to your run like I did. It's that simple, and yet neither of you had bothered to do so, even after I tried to help your point(since you guys clearly know what to do with Donnel if he's so amazing, you should get better results). If you're worried about your turn counts being too high, just take the turn counts I did and add+1 to them at most, and assume that as your goal for each chapter. For the chapters I haven't done yet, just look at turn counts found in draft runs and add +1/2 to each of those, since that's what I tried to do in general anyway. If really necessary, I'll draft up a required turn count max for each chapter, and we can proceed to argue about whether that is too high or too low and go from there. There's no need to get upset. There's no need to be mad. There is a simple and easy way to solve the problem. And honestly, I'm curious to see your results.

The entire franchise can be argued to be subjective and luck based, and all tiers, let alone character ratings or any difficulty about the game in general, can be said to be in theory pointless. Just like there is a chance Virion could get a glass bow, there is also the chance that I can have Marty get a level, have every stat grow (even movement), and proceed to do this every level up for the rest of the game, not to mention I always send him into combat and he kills everything he fights in one hit thanks to critical hits. Barracks and event tiles don't exist because tiers attempt to remove the RNG as much as possible, otherwise there is nothing to argue or discuss since it isn't even subjective, but rather luck based. Risen challenges don't exist for the same reason grinding doesn't exist in other tiers, not to mention that if you can beat the game without grinding easily with X group of characters, then why bother using Y group of characters when they only become good if you grind them? Additionally, what makes the in game rankings of FE4/5/6/7/12 any different than the terms and conditions set here? In one case, you have IS telling you how to play the game and what to do. In another, you have the conditions outlined in this tier. There is ultimately no difference between the two. In fact, just like how you don't like the conditions in this tier, I could argue I don't like the conditions set in FE7 since it's too easy. Then prove as much and mention that such is actually the case like I did with Nowi. I mentioned that using her on chapter 8 to become a god cost me a turn, and that was the only real negative I found in using her. You haven't even provided anything to help Donnel's case in early game which is why he is so low. Also, there is nothing difficult to understand about a brisk paced run. It's just a LTC run that doesn't only look at the absolute minimum TC, but still tries to get in that range by about 1 or 2 turns. The whole reason SDS even mentioned that in the first place is probably so that you can't argue that Anna and Libra don't go up to S tier just because they can allow us to rescue chain and clear chapters in single turns.

These are Donnel's stats on Average: Lvl 10 Villager ~25.45 Hp ~10.75 str ~8.75 skl ~9.30 spd 20 lck ~8.85 def ~3.60 res Lvl 1 Merc ~27.45 Hp ~14.75 str ~15.75 skl ~15.30 spd 20 lck ~12.85 def ~3.60 res Lvl 1 Fighter ~34.45 Hp ~17.75 str ~12.75 skl ~13.30 spd 20 lck ~11.85 def ~3.60 res 13 base speed with a good pair up and a speed tonic is enough for Donnel to still double most enemies for awhile, and he is stronger and more durable as a fighter thanks to Hp+5. As far as growths go, he trades +5% str for -5% skl and spd, and all of them are still over 80% regardless. Additionally, we can give Donnel an Arms scroll giving him access to D rank axes, letting him use hand axes and hammers. As a Mercenary, dumping an arms scroll on Donnel isn't as useful. The only D rank swords we are likely to get are the Wyrmslayer and Iron Sword. Since Donnel does have Armsthrift, the Wyrmslayer makes for a nice subpar steel sword, but as far as the midgame chapters I've done go, there aren't many wyverns (Morgan and Owain's(can't do it since I didn't pair Lissa...) have some, but Kjelle, Laurent(can't do it since I didn't pair Miriel...), chp 12-16 I'm pretty sure don't. Don't recall the others) so the effective bonus isn't super great. Conversely, the hand axe gives 1-2 range and the hammer is arguably one of the best and most useful weapons in the game. Also, class changing to Fighter doesn't mean he can't get Sol since Fighters can also promote to Hero. To be perfectly honest, although I am mostly talking about how bad Donnel's early game and early mid game is (as a Merc, which I argue is his worse class option) his late midgame and late game are still yet to be seen, and by then he is definitely going to be a beast. Most other units can't really compare with his stats there, and if I had made him a fighter and gave him an arms scroll, he'd be on his way to being a better version of Vaike by now. The most important thing to remember though is that, although difficult, Donnel certainly isn't impossible to train, and his good remaining portion of the game may still outclass other units in some ways that they can't compare with him. Regardless, Donnel should only reach the very bottom of B tier in a best case scenario. As for making Nowi a wyvern rider, it is all experimental, so I will see how it goes. The main idea behind making her a wyvern rider is because Chapter 16 and up enters the "Kill the boss ASAP" phase of the game, so the extra move and flying utility may prove more useful since there is less of a focus on tanking tons of enemies at once. From my lunatic run, this was a bad idea, but in hard mode, maybe not so much. Griffon Rider->Wyvern Rider->Wyvern Lord->Manakete may be a better idea though. Also, Nowi's avoid is actually pretty decent as a Manakete thanks to her high luck and decent speed.

I used one on Donnel, and then another on Fred to make him a Griffon Rider. I don't think I've used any other ones yet, but I plan on making Nowi a Wyvern rider for the extra leveling speed and Tanvity, Chrom to become a Cavalier (he's been majorly RNG screwed this run), and maybe have Sumia become a Knight. I'm able to complete chapter 16, so I'll be able to buy second seals soon. IIRC you can get four before chapter 16: One from Renown awards, one from a village in chapter 8, 1 from a Bow Knight in chapter 12, and the last from a village in chapter 15. Maybe if you were good at the game you'd realize how bad Mercenary is for Donnel in no grind

So since Inui won't actually post any turncount numbers using Donnel, I decided to try and see how useful Donnel actually is, along with an attempt at looking at Tharja and Nowi, since the former has been brought up a lot and I honestly think Nowi might be able to go in A tier, but that remains to be seen. I will also mention some of my impressions on Fred, since he has also just been brought up and he's played an extremely useful roll in my run. I'm sorry that I don't have any stats atm to see if anyone has been blessed or screwed by the RNG. Then again, we aren't even sure about the growth rates on the website anyway so... Turn count for Prologue through chapter 3: From what I've seen in draft runs, these are either the same or one turn above what most people get for these chapters, so I assume this should hopefully still be in the range of brisk. For the most part, I've pretty much only been using Fred up to this point and he's been his typical awesome self. Now we get to Donnel's paralogue. Before starting, I got a maxed attack Bronze Lance for Donnel since I wanted to try and get maximum use out of him and level him up ASAP. As far as doing his paralogue went, I had Sumia chip the archer near the starting point and Donnel+Fred finished him off. IIRC, a +3 Bronze Lance would have killed him as well. Doing this gave Donnel 40 exp. On the enemy phase, the Thief decided to attack Sumia (he couldn't kill donnel anyway) and then the following player phase, Donnel killed the Thief allowing him to level up. I tried to get some more kills in for Donnel after that, but ultimately it proved a bit detrimental to do so, and I ended up completing the Paralogue in 9 turns with Donnel at Level 2. From here until Nowi showed up, my turn counts were as follows: All in all, Donnel was nothing but a pain to bring to all these chapters. There are much better units than him I could've brought, and he could pretty much never stand on the front lines. Fred was still awesome of course thanks to Sumia. Now we reach chapter 8, where Nowi and Tharja join, so the following turn counts are from here to the end of early game (aka Chapter 11) Nowi is no where near as difficult to use as Donnel, and can actually one round (with dual attack) and take hits on her starting chapter. In Chapter 8, Nowi should focus on the enemies by the master seal village. She has a 20% chance of killing the dark mage closest to her thanks to Gregor, and if she fails she kills him next turn. She can survive about 3 attacks from mages and the cavalier closest to her, so with proper strategy, she can easily gain 2 levels. I will say that it is possibly somewhat crucial she either gets +1 def or +1 res from her first level up, and that you can very likely save a turn not getting her to level 5. What's most important to note about Nowi is that she gains 47 exp per kill at level 3 and pretty much has a guaranteed C support with Gregor. On chapter 9, I just did my best to feed both of them kills while Fred, Sumia, Cordelia, and Chrom killed everything else. Paralogue 4 is what really allows Nowi to get going as a unit and deal some damage. She can essentially handle the right side of the map herself. With a speed tonic, it is possible that she can already double some enemy mages, and has a decent chance of OHKOing them with Gregor. She can also get in range of Archers from the other side of the wall, and has fairly decent durability, even without the Seraph robe. She should reach B support with Gregor at the end of this chapter. Since she was still gaining 40+ exp per kill, I managed to get her to level 10 by the end very easily. For chapter 10, I couldn't do much with her since her Dragon stone was running low, but on Chapter 11, she once again proved extremely useful. By using ward on the first turn and dancing her down far enough, she can solo the mage side of the map effortlessly while taking 0~2 damage from them depending on whether they have Mag+2 or not. She also deals about 20 damage to Gangrel, and it's highly recommended she either gets the kill or can get the dragon stone traded to her when he dies since she has a chance of running out of dragon stone uses. As far as Tharja goes, at base I was able to have her, when paired with Kellam, get some kills on chapter 10. I didn't try using her the same way I did Nowi, but the main concern I have about her is whether she can get started as fast as Nowi with the same effort. Main thing I see between them right now is that Tharja will ultimately be more costly (100 uses of Nosferatu > 100 uses of dragon stone), having less set in stone requirements (Nowi needs Gregor to be good), and may not be able to kill mages as well at the beginning in exchange for possibly being easier to train. I'll have to try again giving Tharja the same benefits I did Nowi and see how that turns out. Donnel ultimately could only do what Inui has suggested so far: Poke things and hope for kills. He provides absolutely no positive use to being brought, and is a negative for being used at all. Also, promoting him to Mercenary is definitely a mistake. Dropping an arms scroll and having access to hand axes and hammers is much more useful than armsthrift and and being stuck with E rank swords. Fred, needless to say, is amazing the whole way through. As far as early game goes, I would say Nowi >= Tharja >>>>>> Donnel. Tharja may definitely be better than Nowi, but I'd have to try again and see. As far as mid game goes (AKA the Valm arc, chapters 12-20, Morgan, Owain, Kjelle, Laurent, Cynthia, Brady, Severa, Tiki, and Yarne's paralogue's I'd imagine) I've only done chapters 12-15 and paralogue 8 (aka Kjelle's chapter) so far, so I will note my opinions on how far I've gotten. Turn counts and levels: Nowi is a tank for chapters 12, 15, and p8. At 12, she should have reached A support with Gregor right now, doubles everything that isn't promoted, takes barely any damage at all (only the silver weapon paladins deal over 5 damage to her) and doesn't have to worry about any kind of weapon weakness either. The only enemies she has some trouble dealing with are promoted units (since she can't ORKO them without a crit) and armors which she needs Gregor to help her kill. However, she'll gain levels so fast that she'll quickly overcome that weakness, and may even be able to double the enemy paladins and boss with a speed tonic. Chapter 13 involved no rescue, so I had Nowi and Fred rush the boss on turn 2. Nowi could double the boss without a tonic. She married Gregor at the end of chapter 13. None of them helped on chapter 14 at all since that's just fliers going to kill the boss. I could've had Nowi tank the left ship giving her more levels (along with everyone else) and finish in 2 turns, but I just decided to end it on turn 1. Chapter 15 had Nowi essentially solo (Fred took care of some left over armors) the upper deck of the map, and the main thing that hurt my turn count here was not being able to handle the beach enemies very well as a result of Donnel's crap move, lock to E rank swords, and no 2 range. Kjelle's paralogue is a mess. You get a lot of enemy reinforcements from turn 2-5, and on turn 5 you get a ton of generals and sorcerers with 2 range weapons thrown at you. It's kind of difficult to take care of all that and still reach the boss without letting Kjelle die if she isn't strong enough. From these chapters here, Nowi was like a second Fred (only slower and with 1 less move) Tharja was still usable and provided some very helpful backup in Paralogue 8 (even without Nostanking thanks to her high def and Kellam support), and Donnel still proved to be nothing but a negative with less durability than both of them, especially in terms of his res. From here, Nowi > Tharja >>>>>>> Donnel still, but I'm maybe halfway through the game right now, so I'll just have to wait and see what turns out. At this point in time, Fred is still useful as well and has continued to be nothing but a huge boon thanks to Sumia, though he may start to slow down soon. I'll probably promote her to dark flier and let her use tomes since enemies don't seem to have good res in this game.

What kind of input do you want? Turn counts trying to get her up to par(since if we're going over the maximum allowed for Brisk that's bad)? What resources she needs? What the strategy is using her? How much exp she gets per kill? Who to pair her with? I could post my hard mode log of using her, where her stats are pretty average for the most part (the most important of which is speed), that has my turn counts, but that is a low tier log where I didn't use rescue or forging, and tried to avoid using high tier characters.

So by what chapter is he reaching this C swords D axes then? If he can't do it by chapter 11, let alone chapter 12, then the argument is over and he doesn't even deserve to go above Nowi.

Frankly, with the amount of effort it seems to get Donnel up to par, I'd honestly rather use Nowi. She's pretty much always guaranteed to have 1-2 range, doesn't even need Sol since nothing can even hurt her, and requires much fewer resources to get up to par. Even if he does become this godly unit, I can still use Nowi to get the job done just fine regardless. Honestly, making Donnel a Mercenary seems stupid IMO just because of being stuck to 1 range for so long.

Tiki > Nowi > Nah

If Nowi is going to be in B-Tier, I can't see Tharja going above her, even with Nostanking. I haven't really ever tried using Tharja, but from my current playthrough, I'm actually curious as to whether she can even get started as fast as Nowi can, and I wouldn't even be able to baby Tharja the same way I could Nowi since Nosferatu only has 20 uses available for 2 1/2 chapters, not to mention it's more expensive than a Dragon Stone when accounting for weapon use in the long run anyway. Edit: @Inui If you're going to argue for Donnel going up, please give an explanation on how you even plan on getting him started. I'm actually curious to see them.

What would it take to show that Nowi can go in B tier? I'm doing a run based on the rules in the OP, and while my turn counts aren't exactly the lowest, they're still pretty decent to an extent, and Nowi pretty much stopped taking damage at chapter 12 with a Def tonic and was still able to kill almost everything thrown at her as well with average speed... She probably takes a bit more money than other units to use, but the game gives you so much money that it's honestly negligible...

All the children characters do.

She gains over 40 exp per kill in her joining chapter, and is likely to keep getting 40+exp per kill for the next chapter and maybe chapter after that. With Gregor, she has a little over 20% chance of ORKOing all the dark mages and Myrmidon's (occasionally fighters too) in her joining chapter, the former of which 3HKO her. She has an auto C support with Gregor, gets doubled by nothing on Chapter 9 when paired up with him, and again OHKO's all the mages/darkmages and archers in the map with Gregor support while already being pretty tanky, especially if she was given the seraph rob. The only difficult thing about training Nowi is her low HP and speed, the former of which is fixed with a seraph rob and the latter is resolved with a fast Gregor support and the ability to buy speed tonics after completing her joining chapter. Out of all the units in the game you have to baby to get going, she's certainly one of the easier ones.

For the whole Child paralogue argument, I think it might be best to just do them when enemy levels of the current chapter equal those of the child paralogue chapter. The order of enemy level is something like this IIRC: Still have unpromoted enemies/easiest to do: Morgan, Owain, Kjelle, Laurent Level 3 Promoted: Cynthia Level 5 Promoted: Brady, Yarne?(may actually be lvl 6) Level 6 Promoted: Severa Level 7 Promoted: Noire Level 8 Promoted: Gerome, Inigo, Nah I feel like I posted this before? Anyway, this seems like the easiest way to decide when to do them if you ask me.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I also just realized my Kellam was spd and str blessed and currently has 17 str and 12 spd at lvl 13 which is enough to double most enemies in chapter 6. His defense is average so far though and that's enough to take no damage from practically anything even with a shitty donnel support. His movement was a non-issue as far as paralogue 2 and chapter 6 go. If he gets worse long term, then I'll just have to wait and see. It's really a shame he can't support Sumia... Also, looking at drafts, my turn counts are all pretty shitty. Probably what happens when you don't use any high tier characters for anything but support and no forges either.