Green Poet

Wow, I forgot I could still post in this game after dying in Training for some reason. Anyway. . . @Shinori - when you get the chance, could you explain the reasoning behind your lynch priority? Like I can sort of understand why you want to lynch me because you expressed suspicion at me not voting FFM in ED1, but that's the last you've talked of me or my content and it's unclear to me if you still think that way? But the only time you've mentioned FFM prior to this was ED1 when you said FFM's claim suited his meta, so I assumed you had a nullread on him? But now apparently he's the only other person on your two-person lynch priority, and I don't see where this is coming from. Really? Not even according to your reads throughout all of D1 did you ever believe Junko was likely to be town, much less doctor. He and I were your only reads D1, both of them being scumreads, so acting as though you would have been against a Junko lynch just looks scummy. You even said that my interactions with Junko would reveal a lot upon one of our flips. . .? And you're talking as though his flip means nothing. If associative reads are as important to your reads as you say they are, I would've thought that the townie you disliked so much for buddying with me would straighten you out by actually flipping town. But your reaction to his flip is just a bitter "we should've lynched actual scum instead," instead of anything to do with Junko's associative reads. Are you going to ignore Refa's reads on me, or on anyone else, if he flips town? FFM's? BBM's? If you're only going to selectively consider scum flips in your "associative reads," what you have aren't reads at all. What you have is bias, and that's scummy. It should be familiar. Your Shin case is Marth's own. Euklyd, I don't understand how what's elapsed since your last post in D1 and now has managed to do absolutely nothing on your read on me. Your only "reads" are associative and all of them depend on me being scum, yet you ignore the one reliable, dead associative read source in front of you pointing to me being town. Make up your mind.

first time getting NKed :o gl town and all that jazz. -end bah post-

##Vote: Shin Eury flipping town makes me somewhat less sure about my Euklyd read, be as it may that he's likely to call this reconsideration scummy. The fact that at least half my wagon was composed of proven townies might also indicate something about the alignments of the remainder? I'll reread BBM and Euklyd once they've posted reads, but nothing's changed as far as Shin is concerned.

##Vote: Dudeaga Forget it. It's tied right now, no time.

Really sorry for spam posting. I can only get these out incrementally. Meant to say that we can lynch either with a majority > 4, which we have

4 is required to lynch, not 7.

Wasn't Vashiane online?

Yes, I'll be free for some time in the next 50 minutes.

No, we had one hour. That, and I had just voted for Dudeaga, so we had a consolidation. Your reaction is something I'll have to consider later, though.

##Unvote Why so frantic, Terrador?

##Vote: Dudeaga Busy.

I'm not recognizing crumbs from Poly nor Makaze. "Close to softclaiming" isn't at all precise in describing what Dudeaga thinks they're doing. Have they actually softclaimed, or do you get the feeling they're going to? And with neither of them under pressure to claim, why would doing so be scummy at all? But why are you not scum? This doesn't read like a defense. I doubt it. The whole point of bussing is to gain towncred, and that can only gained if the wagon is built on an actual case, which RVS votes lack. Even now, I don't feel as though Blyvern and ZM have contributed strong cases enough cases against Dudeaga that I would consider them town if Dudeaga flips scum. I think Dudeaga has been playing more like scum than Ciraxis. Going to reread the thread and see if I really would still be willing to consolidate on Ciraxis, because I'm not so certain anymore.

I'm still not sold on a Dudeaga lynch. If certain PRs flip tomorrow and Dudeaga is still alive, it might be more feasible that doctor is simply Dudeaga's assigned safe fakeclaim, hence a lack of CC. I would vote either Xehanort or Vashiane, but doing so is pointless as far as achieving popular lynches go. I'm assuming they've already been prodded, and they are more than eligible for policy vigging now, imo. The only other wagons are Ciraxis and Dudeaga, the former of which I think is likely town, and the latter of which I do not want to hammer now. I'll wait to see if consolidation against Ciraxis is viable. I believe we have a little less than four hours till phase end and I should be around for most of that time.

@Refa Euk > Shin >>> BBM = Eury > Junko >>> Cam = Refa = Poly > Shinori > FFM >>> Marth I'll try to be around at phase end. I've said my piece, and might vote Junko if there's no other recourse.

Yay for unhealthy posting habits. I just wanted to point out that Dudeaga not dying tonight if we don't lynch him today does not definitively incriminate him. Mafia can choose someone else to kill in the hopes of making Dudeaga seem scummy by virtue of not dying, thus causing us to waste our D2 lynch on him (and probably our D1 lynch as well, unless amazing cases spring up on someone else in the next 16 hours).Granted, this is somewhat reliant on WIFOM in assuming that doc!Dudeaga isn't the most attractive target for scum tonight, but what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't default to the assumption that Dudeaga is scum if he's alive tomorrow. Last thing to note - if we decide not to lynch Dudeaga, I will be willing to consolidate against Ciraxis despite my townread on him, solely because even a likely mislynch outweighs no lynch.

Wait, Prims. Don't tell me that was actually your mentor post? :/

First, I apologize for my relative inactivity in this game. I've been busier than I thought I would be when I signed up for this game, and Almost OC has been terribly trying, as anyone who's been following it will know. That said, I am here, now, so I'll try and make sense of the developments. Dudeaga should out crumbs, if he placed any. Leave it to clipsey to throw out the most potent claim. I don't know exactly what my mentor (Prims) is about to post, but I'm going to start by saying that I do not believe the claim. Unless Dudeaga provides crumbs that would show that he is the doctor, there's a very slim chance that he is, going simply by setup odds. In a 12-player game, exactly one doctor is most likely to be present. So, ignoring the popular thought that he is scum, since this can't be quantified, there's a one in twelve chance that Dudeaga rolled doctor. I expect that clipsey wouldn't fakeclaim doctor in order to avoid a town!Dudeaga mislynch, as it's not worth the loss against town incurred by legit CC. Thus, Dudeaga is either scum, which for this setup I would hazard a guess at a 3-4 person scumteam, or he really is the doctor. Numbers-wise, Dudeaga is more likely to be scum than not. As for what I personally think of Dudeaga. . . I didn't like this post. I discussed how Ciraxis' vote was, by definition, not sheepy - there was no case on ZM to sheep. Dudeaga saying that it's scummy to "vote and unvote" is fine, but when the first vote is an RVS. . . no, that's not scummy at all. That's basic, constructive scumhunting because it moves your random vote to one you have a case on. He says that he would vote for people "reading into things too deeply" because it's a sign of scuminess, which I suppose can be true, but he doesn't explain how Ciraxis is being too nosy or overly interpretive. To Dudeaga's merit, calling out Blyvern and ZM for sheeping was a good post. Their votes didn't seem terribly committal, though that's to be expected with a playerlist of relatively new players. I don't think the two of them are scum, but the point is, Dudeaga's suspicions are more agreeable there. I'm not going to hammer Dudeaga, and anyone that does at this time should be considered scum by policy. But we definitely need to hear him explain himself, especially if he has crumbed doc anywhere in his previous posts.

. . .Yep, looks like I missed Cam. Sorry, I don't have the energy to remedy that. If it actually matters, right now I'm reading Cam null, but I haven't ISO'd him yet. That's (probably) all from me this phase. Good luck, town.

[spoiler=lots of words]Well, this is disheartening. I'm at L-2, I think? With less than 24 hours in the phase, and me being unable to post until at least 24 hours from now, I'm going to consider this my last post of the phase and probably the game. I'm not going to be arguing why I'm not scum anymore; I've been a broken record for longer than necessary and people are actually asking why I'm doing nothing other than putting out defensive walls. . . So let's compromise; I'm going to stop wasting my effort trying to make it any clearer why my actions have been town-motivated and instead give a listpost so that my lynch will at least incur some benefit to town, however small. First, I'm going to claim now, because I probably won't get the chance to later on. I'm a VT, simple as that. That a sample VT PM was provided to everyone made me slightly more inclined earlier on that FFM was telling the truth because there would be several VTs in the game. I'm not going to say if and whom I have OC with, since no one can nor should try to vouch for me, as it's obviously impossible for me to have definitively proved that I'm a VT to any potential neighbors. Anyone whom I declare to have OC with would become a better nightkill candidate after I flip, so I won't. Call me scummy for it if you like; I see it as the most beneficial effort I can still make even if others would deny it. Listpost time. I won't be discussing Euklyd or BBM because you all already know what I think of them. I previously stated I had townreads on Shinori and Marth. The former is more of a null read now. Shinori has taken initiative on questioning Junko, who's his main read that Shinori's pursued from the beginning. So, to his credit, he didn't jump on the Junko wagon; he started it. The reasoning itself is solid, too. Junko avoided giving reads on me and seemed to think I was town, or if not, many seemed to think he was sheeping my case on Euklyd inadequately. So cases began to spring up on Junko from Shinori's initial suspicion as to whether or not he's my scumbuddy and such. So this is all very much to Shinori's merit/towniness, etc. What I don't like about Shinori is how he exclusively focuses on Junko. With the obvious exception of his RVS vote on Refa, each of his directly game-related posts are about Junko and questioning him. The one post where Shinori talks about someone else is wrt myself, but Shinori actually avoids stating what his read on me is. He vaguely says that he's "not required to vote his #1 scumread" when asked why he isn't voting me. . . so are you saying I'm your top scumread but you feel like questioning Junko more? Why would that be? You say that others are already putting pressure on me so you don't need to, but that means that others are asking the same questions and making the same cases against me that you would, which shouldn't be happening unless you have OC with a majority of everyone else on my wagon, or you're distributing questions to be asked in scumchat. Were there really no issues with my cases and situation that you felt deserved a mention? Shinori TL;DR - makes a good case on Junko and sticks with it, but is ambiguous on all of his other reads and is too tunnelly for me to call him solid town. Marth has been asking good questions and was the first to call out Cam for spreading out questions to everyone without actually stating his (Cam's) own reads. His observation that Cam is voteparking is good in that it (1) caused Cam to start giving his reads and (2) elaborate on a Poly case that had seen no light since RVS. That Marth decides to vote Shin for lazy/inactive scumhunting (the case is in his previous post) is what makes me most confident about his towniness, as it draws to include an otherwise unnoticed player into contention. He doesn't ignore the more prominent/popular wagons like my own, isn't tunnely, and has had good consistent play. FFM I feel I have discussed more than enough. His early play has been poor, no question, but I've given reasons as to why "poor play" isn't the same as "scummy play." I don't really like how his subsequent posts after the initial drama have been largely passive. This "I can still vote you, you know" bit is unsettling because it feels like a poorly hidden threat; it's beyond obvious that anyone's votes are subject to change and this sort of language is easily employed by scum in order to give the impression of suspecting someone while not committing to it, especially so in the case of a scumbuddy. That said, the rest of his interactions with Cam contextualize this because it's clear he does feel hesitant about Cam. This and this feel particularly organic and he's not trying to distance himself from any players. I would say that FFM's play is still townie, if not as consistent as it could be. Refa has been lazy. This vote, which I won't be arguing against, cites the same reasons that comprise every other vote on me. He states suspicion against Cam because of voteparking. . . which was initially brought up by Marth. He states suspicion against Shin for lazy scumhunting. . . again, Marth's case. I see no original cases nor reads. This post is largely filler. It comments on part of a Eury wall, then immediately qualifies the statement with a "oh, I just read something that makes my previous opinion now inapplicable." This even skims over the fact that I explained far before Refa's post why ED1 votes are logistically more likely than not to be on town than scum, which is highly suspect because the entire notion of ED1 votes being on town was introduced in the exact same post. The inattentiveness, or selective quoting, is suspect. His initial FFM case is good, and I don't see why people like Shinori felt it necessary to call it too hasty, much less scummy. Everyone agrees that FFM shouldn't have claimed, and it's practically a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario in which Refa voted FFM and I didn't, both of us pointing out the same flaw in his post, and yet everyone still had something to say about both behaviors that indicated scuminess. This post defending Cam was great, but I don't understand why you'd go and say "I'm still bothered by Cam" at the end of the post, right after having written a wall as to why Cam's questions are helping him make reads, how he'll present those reads later, etc. Later he says that Cam is doing "objectively scummy things" though, so I'm still uncertain as to what Refa's actual opinion on Cam is. Do you think he's scum or not? He has a moderately high position on your lynch priority, so elaborate on it. TL;DR - I feel that Refa's reads are inconsistent but interesting, and I'm not getting any decisively townie/scummy reads from him. A flat null. Eury is someone who I think will become easier to read once associative reads are in the air. For a while I've been wondering if she and Euklyd are scumbuddies, and naturally her most recent post caught my attention. She thinks that Junko, FFM and myself are scum. . . what's the commonality between us? We are all voting Euklyd. Can I say this means anything about Eury's alignment without flips or night actions? No, but it's worth keeping in mind after I flip town. Otherwise, it's difficult to parse between the voice of the usual, wall-assembling Eury and scum!Eury. Eury has predictably guessed my alignment correctly in her first listpost wall of each of the four (?) games we've played in which I was town, and vice-versa when she was scum. While it's not anything that's reliable or telling evidence, I find it unlikely that the intuition behind those previous reads would be wrong this time. I don't like how her listpost commits so little to Euklyd. It restates my reasons for voting him while wording them to appear trivial, then restates Euklyd's case on me form a clearly partial standpoint. Is the scarcity of content he's produced so convincing as to gain your confidence? The support for Euklyd and subtle attacks on anyone voting him is suspicious to me, but I'm sure town will consider this more once I flip town, and even more so if either Euklyd or Eury flips. TL;DR - leaning conditionally scum based on yet-unconfirmed association. Eury is inherently difficult to read, and has a way of presenting listposts such that they appear logical regardless of alignment. Shin has little content for me to really consider. I can see why Marth and the people sheeping his Shin case would think that he's been lazy, but only in the capacity that Shin simply has few posts. I said before that he was worth keeping an eye on solely because of this, but by the very issue of his infrequent posts it's difficult to do. He lacks interactions with the rest of the players that one could judge (with the exception of some very brief exchanges with Cam), which doesn't help either. This post is poor in that it points out issues with FFM and Cam thoroughly but opts to vote Junko based on a two-line reason that was already asserted by Shinori. I don't understand why Shin's lynch priority runs in such a way that doesn't reflect what his reads are saying. His criticism of Poly was addressed so long ago that it shouldn't have been brought up at all unless Shin didn't believe Poly's explanation. . . but from what I'm reading of Shin's post, it doesn't appear as though he realizes the explanation exists. I would say Shin's been playing like how scum would, though inattentiveness only incriminates you so far. If he had more interactions, I wouldn't be opposed to lynching him at this time, if that was hypothetically possible. Polydeuces has been tentative in his reads, I feel. Note that the following link quotes are my paraphrase of Poly's words, not copied word-for-word. His interactions with Cam feel like he doesn't want to call Cam scum for all of the questioning that's being tossed his (Poly's) way, and this "I actually think you're town because of all of your questions" and "despite disagreeing with your play I think you're probably town" feels like appeasement more than anything to get Cam off his case. Asking things like "why are we even still discussing my attack on someone else? It's not relevant anymore" read like he would rather avoid the questions than answer them, though he hasn't shied away from actually giving the answers to Cam. The interactions feel hesitant when there shouldn't be a need to, put simply. Also, this and this promise later cases on me. None are given, but a vote is. There's his initial "I'll give a case on GP soon" and the "here's a vote on GP, I'll explain why later" 11 hours later. Yeah, I understand it's fashionable to sheep the case on me now, but it'd help immensely to discern your intentions if you would state that you simply are sheeping. Otherwise, placing a vote on someone and not explaining why implies that you are informed, that you already know who an ideal lynch for your faction is, with the only issue being that you can't assemble a townie-looking case to support it. Last qualm with Poly is his indecisiveness on his Refa read. Initially, he says he's not sure about Refa, which makes sense because he presents varying aspects of Refa's play that aren't indicative of alignment. But he eventually cedes that Refa's looking better because he's. . . dropped an issue? Isn't that an indication of scuminess, suddenly not continuing to pursue reasoning that you had believed in before? TL;DR - confused by Poly's Cam interactions and what his current reads are, and I'm not satisfied by his effortless and still-unexplained jump onto my wagon. Not decisively scummy play, but I wouldn't call him a townie by any respects. Junko hasn't had the strongest original cases, but I'm naturally biased because he was one of the few that actually supported my Euklyd case. His later unvote isn't even founded in truth, though; Euklyd still believes I am scum and vice-versa, and so Junko's explanation doesn't make sense, which is odd given how defensive he had been earlier that we were on the right track. Junko feels too passive for my taste, and the unvote feels motivated by the pressure he's getting for believing in his Euklyd case than because he actually feels Euklyd's unlikely to be scum. And this is just lazy reading. As with many others, I still don't know who Junko's scumreads are. After his unvote, there's no one I could say "this is someone that Junko stated strong suspicion against before." This might be explained by how he hasn't had very much time to play mafia of late, but later clarification would help his case a lot. If I've missed anyone. . . that's too bad. Time to sleep. On the off-chance that I am alive during the next day phase, I should disclaim that this much efforting shouldn't be expected again, because this is an attempt to contribute as much as I can in one go before I won't be able to do so again. If I'm lynched, all I can say is that I apologize to town for playing in such a way that this has happened.

No more efforting from me for now. Going to get caught up in the other game running. Still not convinced about Euklyd. Poly's looking better. If somehow I get time to post about things that aren't more responses to cases on myself, I'll start by reading some of the more prominent people like Eury and Cam. Last thing: Huh? I'm not scumreading Shin. I said it was worth looking out for more posts from him because he hadn't posted very much then. Like, that's actually a closer reason to why I think he's worth watching than because I think he's scummy. I haven't even yet closely read the rest of this quoted post that I just cut out.

1. No one's asking for a wall. What would have helped was any explanation as to how I'm scummiest out of those that you read, because you hadn't offered reads on anyone else. You say you read the thread, and not just my ISO, so why did you only present one read and leave? 2. How was I avoiding giving reads? I made note of plays from Shinori, FFM and Poly that I found issues with, and disclaimed that I didn't feel any of those merited a vote. That doesn't detract from the fact that I had opinions on people, and expressed them. 3. Sure, that's reasonable. But what you're saying doesn't contextualizes or otherwise warrant how Poly decided to present my words. 4. Not true. Both of our cases aim to demonstrate why it's likely that the other is scum; I don't know where this "assume X is scum in order to prove that X is scum" falsehood comes from. Where am I saying that "If we start by assuming Euklyd is scum, so-and-so about his post affirms that he is indeed scum?" Also, what do you have to say about my actual reasons for voting you? You think it's OMGUS and reactionary, sure. But what are actual faults in the case? Will you discredit the logic of the case because of its timing? 5. Yes, there's arguably scum intent in not committing to reads. But since I didn't think Poly, Shinori nor FFM were scum, not voting them isn't contradicting my reads. 6. Of course not. 1. Makes sense wrt Shinori. I thought it fit chainsaw because he voted Refa, potentially in defense of FFM. That happened on page one, and Shinori doesn't feel scummy to me now. But how was I twisting Poly's question? He asked me why I wasn't voting FFM, so I asked in turn if he thought the he and I should. I didn't restate Poly's question itself, much less with a twisted meaning. 2. Half of this addressed above, to Euklyd. Sure, I suppose I could have used it as a pressure vote? It might strike others as bad or scummy play that I chose not to, but I had a reason for doing so that I thought was expressed openly enough. If my one vote had mattered more that early on, then I'd have been more inclined to cast it. Right now it feels as though people are blowing my behavior out of proportion and matching my not voting with all sorts of assumptions like not committing to reads or trying to avoid openly stating who I thought was scum - none of this happened; my reads just didn't merit a vote at the time. 3. I see where you're coming from; I could have been more concise. Sorry, I hadn't thought about everyone thoroughly. 4. This post has a lot to do with it. You seemed fine to me until you rephrased Euklyd's case and followed it, which got my attention. You've only just now replied to my questions regarding your own aspects of your case (how Shinori/Poly stuff was insubstantial, how my Euklyd vote is poor, calling FFM my top scumread), and I thought it was highly scummy that you seemed to ignore all of the things I'd pointed out were ambiguous or factually incorrect about your last post in lieu of restating it. It helps significantly now that you have addressed these.

Agreed. Xehanort has hardly posted, and shouldn't be voted for a lack of explanation behind his vote when there are others that haven't at all. By "feeling good about Makaze," do you mean that you simply think he's playing well, or playing townie? Being cautious is fine by itself, but if you're noticing that a newbie "knows what he's doing" and is playing in order to avoid being "potentially baited later on," it seems like more reason for concern than congratulation to me, as far as the actual game goes. It may not indicate anything about his alignment, but perhaps he's being coached to avoid being committal in answering Terrador? Most importantly, I do not agree with this Ciraxis wagon. This post in particular makes me feel better about him; he's clearly explaining his thought process and admitting that his reads this early on may not be the best. Is it sheeping for Ciraxis to vote someone who had one RVS vote on them? Junko's vote on ZM had no reasoning behind it; Ciraxis' new vote did, so I don't see what the issue is. Essentially, Ciraxis unvoted from an RVS vote to something he thought was actually worth pursuing. I don't consider this bad.

-Yes, thanks >.< -I don't have good scumreads on anyone other than Euklyd and BBM, though I'd note that Shin is worth keeping an eye on only by virtue of not having posted very much. Cam and Eury are null to me; it's difficult to parse between any objective scum intent they may have in their posts, and their cases on me that I don't like because of my bias. Their posts and many questions do very clearly look for scum, at least. Marth and Shinori read solidly town. I disagree with some of the points Poly has raised but I don't think it says much about his alignment.

1. I had issues with the plays from Poly and FFM. I didn't feel either were scummy enough to merit being voted; I just didn't think their posts were particularly good. They are the two that comprise my "anyone." 2. The votes on me say otherwise, though. 3. How so? What's odd to you about the timing? I think FFM's bad play doesn't merit a vote, but I think Euklyd's is comparatively worse and more likely motivated by scum intent, so I voted for him. 4. What/whose filler gameplay are we talking about? 5. Sure, I understand; there's no real weight behind a claim like "I could've made [insert bad play/OMGUS in this case] if I wanted to," and I apologize if my saying it caused confusion. Does it detract from, or give a different meaning to, my case on Euklyd to you? Looking for your comments on my BBM case. I want to get to rereading Shinori and Cam sometime, though, since they have a lot of content out.

D1 doctor lynches seem too mainstream here; we should get in the habit of going for more beloveds.