(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Snike]

Back from the cleanse.  Spoilering this stuff for the sake of the thread because I've been drug into walling.

Spoiler

5 hours ago, Shinori said:

I wanted to see if Makaze would react more or less.  I kind of have a slight feeling on my Makaze read and I wanted to see what he would do to me saying they were outed.

Lame. I was hoping for an Athena moment to happen or some other brilliant hook.

5 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

What's wrong with a reads list 5 pages into the game? Do you think there's enough content at that point to write big cases? Or are you saying its too much? The alternative there would be to just...not post.

 

I didn't get the feeling that he's being solvey tbh; Yeah he states his reads and opinions but only when asked, and that's called being reactive not proactive. You could disagree with me on whether that comes from town or scum but, I wouldn't call that game solvey.

I don't think there's enough content to make cases but that early into the game (It wasn't 5 pages in btw, the game only started on page 2 so the middle of page 5 is about 3.5 pages) it's better to just yap and discuss at that point rather than listpost. This inquiry reads to me as loaded.

4 hours ago, charlie_ said:

What part of the game did you not think he was playing like town!Weapons? I tend to passively townread Weapons but I'm kind of lost on if this is just a hard meta read aside from the last part. And what's bad about their undecided reads to you atm?

From the start? Specifically, what pinged me on both of the scumreads I'm not voting right now was top of page 4. What's throwing me off is the explaining thoughts bit when I very much have a mental image of town!Weapons being very witty and concise in a way that's not replicated here. The vibes posting felt a little closer to that but I'm not over the self-concern I was reading into it.

4 hours ago, Prims said:

Gonna Get This Post Out Here before bed,
re: BBM Post 1 (and @Shinori by consequence): At the time I found Shinori more suspicious than Makaze, so naturally I would want to keep voting Shinori. I was also curious how Shinori would handle my vote since even though it wasn't super strong it was a serious vote, and I got the vibe he was trying to wait it out without responding directly which I didn't feel great about. I would say though that now that there's more to read him on, nothing of his more recent content really bugs me enough for me to consider him a priority (at worst I feel like he's not really doing that much), but it was what I felt the strongest about at the time I left the thread. I also didn't really feel much of a need to press Makaze early on because he somebody who is automatically talking nonstop by default and I didn't actually feel that badly about him.
re: BBM Post 2: Scum still doesn't want the townie who gets shot to draw attention to them while alive! I think this makes sense.

THAT SAID I have not liked Makaze's more recent posts. "automatically talking nonstop by default" is starting to bubble over into active lurking territory for me. bravado around BBM off an ED1 gut read and "X and Y are unaligned" is nonsensical this early to the point it comes off as trying to establish himself as a Guy Who Is Looking Into Stuff without actually approaching the game in a productive or inquisitive manner. Like, okay, you claim to be trying to get your thoughts out and solve the game out loud, but why is it presented with a high manner of confidence for reads that you don't even treat as warranting of explanation? Combined with general lack of pursuit of anything it starts to look like a replacement for scumhunting instead of something you're doing alongside it. I disagree with BBM here that scum!Makaze would be boxing himself in with the one-liners - general scum play is to just go "guess I was wrong lol" if your old reads don't benefit you anymore (because townies also change their mind, this is actually extremely easy to get away with later in the game as the townies who are more likely to needle you over it get killed off).

One thing I find really weird and tbh is what initially changed my read on him is that what pings Makaze the most about people (me, BBM) is... when they're not scumreading him?? This is such an unintuive way for town, who knows they are town, to scumhunt, especially when both BBM and I had made posts indicating we WERE trying to read your alignment and were still trying to make heads or tails of you but weren't suspicious yet. It's not the same as if BBM and I had forced-looking townreads or something. I can't help but read some bizarre self-consciousness here because I think town's natural takeaway is "well obviously people aren't scumreading me, I'm town posting like a townie" whereas scum is more naturally concerned about how people perceive them.

##Unvote
##Vote: @Snike

This is more immediately pressing, though. The way Snike handles his suspicions on the return post he just made doesn't settle right with me:
- Of his three targets, he's going for the guy who seems like the target least likely to result in backlash given Weapons and I are known to be capricious at times.
- Of his three targets, he's going for the guy who is the one where I can least tell why he thinks the posts are coming from a scum PoV. Snike, is there a conclusion I'm just not reading between the lines to see regarding the Bluedoom case? Like yeah you don't like the Refa vote, but why do you think Bluedoom is scummy as opposed to just not seeing eye-to-eye with you? There was also another vote on Refa (from Boron, who also made a reads post) and a vote switch from Bluedoom moving to Boron, which you didn't mention even though I would think these are contextually relevant to your vote, especially with Boron as the most recent wagon at the time. You contrast Boron with me later but her overall positions in this game have been closer to the guy you're voting, I think. Your post also makes it a little ambiguous whether you were fully caught up or not; had you read the most recent pages as of your post?

While IMO there is a chance Makaze is just continuing to be Weird because he is a Weird player, Snike's post pings me as a very safe thread entrance with a vote that doesn't read as fully explained, so I want to pursue this right now.

I was kind of like... huh on this Boron post from a Mafia 101 perspective because it doesn't actually go into specifics about any of her scumreads' actions or why she feels how she feels, and is generally indecisive. But then I think her posts since then have been OK though and basically give the explanation I would expect from a townie who wrote that post. Basically, an understandable wagon but I don't feel passionate about it myself at all. ftr @ Boron the obvious explanation for scum!Makaze posting things that don't necessarily benefit scum is that he wants to be around and fake content to look townie and those things come out while he's posting.

Personally I myself don't really have any issues with Refa or Bluedoom at this point. Refa has generally come off as townie motivated since my question to them, and idk Marth's thread entrance was to say he was having trouble getting a feel for the game and then he wrote a post that seemed consistent with that, which makes sense? I haven't really had any issues with his lines of inquiry in his following posts even though I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions.

I really wanted to immediately vote eclipse for being a member of the moderating class but then she didn't join the game. She could have told the admins to stop this probably

I had read all the posts up to that point and I typically do that while I'm hacking away at my own yapping. For example, j00 called my post a list post again when I quibbled with that earlier, without being interactive with it. Thanks. I can see someone making a  "blessed homeland vs barborous wastelands" argument  about them but to not even really acknowledge it makes me 😞 .

I don't think you want the discussion about safety when you have a post like this on the books. Makaze's reads are Weird, but not sure if it's scummy. Boron's entrance would happen regardless. SK hunting could be privileged info leaking but different people have different perspectives. Remain on Shinori over wolf larp/refuge in audacity. Hedge, hedge, hedge into a fairly safe vote park given Shinori's early posting. Feel free to argue with me about this framing.

Beyond that I'm taking stances against what I'd argue is the will of the thread, especially given how there's multiple people (SB, Refa off top of head) firmly opposed to that.

Not crazy about the Makaze reads because again this reads very similar to a game where there was a Yolo/Makaze thunderdome for like 3-4 phases straight. I believe they were both town, but this is what I mean about not following the slot over a cliff. 

On Marth:

I think I covered this a bit more when I was addressing the "list post" claim by j00, I think that it's way too early for that sort of thing given context of the game; we were barely out of RVS at that point so it comes across as content generation for the sake of it rather than a genuine position.

Like, it would make more sense to have a read post about now, rather than the whole game length of pages 2-4.5 that was being worked with. Just engage in the convo and go from there. Boron had done this, pushed on Weapons after the entrance onto Prims, and threw that reads post out when leaving the thread for a bit, rather than as an opening offering of content. There's a world of difference, even though I disagree with a lot of what's been said.

The vote switch doesn't make me feel better; it makes me feel worse, especially with the number of questions posed between that vote post and the one in reaction to my early morning discussion. I believe one of the bases for the original vote on Refa was, and I quote "too many questions with a lack of conclusion."  How are later posts meaningfully different from the above?
 

3 hours ago, BBM said:

Can we please stop doing this thing where if someone leaves the thread for a few hours people start getting mad about it? This is specifically directed at Boron for being snippy that people voted her and left, but people were doing that about me earlier too. I know it's frustrating to not get to defend yourself or pursue your scumread more right away,  but we all have more stuff to do now than 5 years ago. So this is a warning that I won't be back after this for a few hours

Prims' post is fine I guess. I feel like we've had this argument before about how easy/hard it is for scum to change their minds later but idk I think it's hard to do in a way that seems natural so I don't agree with that part of it. I do agree about the part about it being weird that Makaze finds it scummier that we don't scumread him back though. I'm just not quite feeling Makaze yet though.

However @Makaze we're literally like 12 hours into the game. Why did you see it necessary to vote Marth to "consolidate"? I get the part about not wanting to vote me for now, but after all your posts to that point, voting Marth there sucked. Consolidating on pure RVS wagons is one thing but I think once wagons become real, doing it for the sake of it sucks. Not all townies are cool under pressure and just piling on votes is more likely to lead to confirmation bias where they start acting more erratic under the pressure and then you feel more confident about it

Snike vote is good. I really don't understand why people find Marth to be scummy. I'm not town reading him or anything but it's just whatever to me. Out of all the Marth votes, Snike's is by far the worst. In addition to what Prims said about Snike picking the easiest target, yes making a full reads post this early is useless, but Marth was hardly the only one doing it. Almost everyone in the thread at that point was giving a bunch of "leaning X" posts off small vibes. Also he's scummier for not being waffly and for trying to solve the game? How does that make any sense?

##Unvote, ##vote: @Snike

 

 

You can make leaning x posts all you want; that's not the same as jumping in with a list post generalizing the pl into groups,  then voting someone in a way that I do not view as 'genuine'. Practically everyone else present was involved in conversation at the time, and as I've mentioned above Boron was playing the game before making the reads post as an exit. These are not the same thing.

Also, the solving them game bit/not being waffly was referring to Refa, not Marth. Marth came in with the struggling to form reads bit, remember.

2 hours ago, Shinori said:

Oh yeh I forgot about them.  I'm kind of null on them.  If I had any grievances it would be that their entry into the thread gave me the heebie jeebies and gave me a flashback of EO3.  But that was like 6 years ago and I think it was just a like random PTSD thing about seeing snike in a mafia game so I'm not trying to bite into that too much at the moment.

You talk about that game a lot from what I remember. I must've really done a number.

2 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

I'm personally fine with snike votes but I want to know why he thinks refa is town who is solving because I didn't get the sense of that at all. Because right now it feels like he's scumreading me for...doing something when I shouldn't have done anything?

Cam's entrance I could see as bad but he also prefaced it as not complete and I want to reserve judgement for when he's able to read the thread fully and collect his thoughts.

I'm scumreading you for generating content in a fairly easy way (listposting) at a point in the game that I can and will argue is egregiously early for such reads.  As I've said I would've liked for you to just start talking rather than force yourself to bucket people. Your followups have only strengthened my read, especially as this framing of my reasoning is not generous.

But now that it's been brought up, I'm going to talk about Refa, for a second, quoting top of page 7.

12 hours ago, Refa said:

Looks like my tilt game is online.

It's how you're reading people, not really your reads themselves.

Ooooh, I see what you're saying. It's not that his reasoning is bad, but the conclusion from the reasoning doesn't seem like what he'd land on. Sure, I can buy that.

Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good...

What makes Marth's posts safe to you (compared to people you're townleaning)?

His initial vote didn't ping me TBH, but I'm curious where it progresses from here (actually, his response to you in general). I think what's bothering me most here is that his post reads like Refa > BBM > Prims but his reasoning reads like Refa > Prims > BBM which is uhhhhh...I like his Prims reasoning though which is where I'm conflicted.

@Bluedoom Above, why was this your voting priority?

I can't speak for other people, but for me it's been "I think I'd rather shoot this guy than someone I know nothing about" which comes from not having a positive feeling on you.

Refa reads like they're engaged in discussion with the thread and their questions have a purpose behind them; I want to say from memory Scum!Refa is typically more  ???? about things, especially early, and ends up being good vibes early on but otherwise relatively unhelpful. Here I can see the lines of the questions and comments (asking Boron to clarify Marth stance, the priority read into inquiry about it, providing the scumread on Shinori. It really does feel like the work is shown, is what I'd summarize it as.

This took way too long to do.

 

[Refa]

@CT075 Who are you scumreading? My impression from your initial post was that you were scumreading Makaze, but then you didn't vote them which is uh kinda sus.

@Makaze I don't get your BBM reasoning. I'm not talking about the vibes part, or the logic itself, but rather what are you getting out of your vote? If you're just voting someone and you don't think anyone will follow you on it, what exactly is it achieving? Why is Bluedoom bothering you?

@Snike I don't get the logic behind your Makaze read. You mentioned you don't know his meta, but then metaread him anyways. Why? Also you're good about the gender thing, no worries.

@Shinori Regarding your content, it reads as reflexive over defensive to me. It doesn't feel like you post unless it's about you, even though you're not being defensive. I am not scumreading you, but I can get where Charlie's case is coming from. If you think Charlie is terrible for attacking Marth, what about all of the other people (AKA the Marth wagon and then some) who are attacking him for his reason?

@charlie_ Why does the Marth change bother you? I don't believe you've mentioned your thoughts on me/Boron, how does that play into it?

@Prims I get why you'd vote Shinori there, that part doesn't bother me. I don't get how your Makaze read was "this is kinda sus" but ended up NAI. Otherwise I'm vibing with your Makaze reasoning. I don't get why Snike's Marth case pinged you when it reads similar to Charlie's and Boron's to me. This question goes for @BBM too.

@Percivalé I don't get your thought process. You said Town!Weapons is an easy vote for scum and then later say you were about to vote Weapons. I don't really get why you're bothered by Marth too. 

Boron (because she asked not to be pinged) - I don't know what you were expecting. Since I've last posted, all you've done is vote me, with your reasoning being that I'm forgettable and that you didn't like my vote on you, and defend your vote on me. You have not done anything else to make think I voted wrong. I think you having reads on me/Marth in isolation is fine. What's bothering me there is more the lack of self awareness. You're agreeing with Marth's case on me, but you're scumreading him because his cases are lackluster. 

I'm in a weird position where I don't feel great about Marth but I don't vibe with any of the cases on him. I don't think I'd vote him.

Didn't read past Via because I have to go but wanted to post this now to get it out there.

[Snike]

Just now, Refa said:

@CT075 Who are you scumreading? My impression from your initial post was that you were scumreading Makaze, but then you didn't vote them which is uh kinda sus.

@Makaze I don't get your BBM reasoning. I'm not talking about the vibes part, or the logic itself, but rather what are you getting out of your vote? If you're just voting someone and you don't think anyone will follow you on it, what exactly is it achieving? Why is Bluedoom bothering you?

@Snike I don't get the logic behind your Makaze read. You mentioned you don't know his meta, but then metaread him anyways. Why? Also you're good about the gender thing, no worries.

@Shinori Regarding your content, it reads as reflexive over defensive to me. It doesn't feel like you post unless it's about you, even though you're not being defensive. I am not scumreading you, but I can get where Charlie's case is coming from. If you think Charlie is terrible for attacking Marth, what about all of the other people (AKA the Marth wagon and then some) who are attacking him for his reason?

@charlie_ Why does the Marth change bother you? I don't believe you've mentioned your thoughts on me/Boron, how does that play into it?

@Prims I get why you'd vote Shinori there, that part doesn't bother me. I don't get how your Makaze read was "this is kinda sus" but ended up NAI. Otherwise I'm vibing with your Makaze reasoning. I don't get why Snike's Marth case pinged you when it reads similar to Charlie's and Boron's to me. This question goes for @BBM too.

@Percivalé I don't get your thought process. You said Town!Weapons is an easy vote for scum and then later say you were about to vote Weapons. I don't really get why you're bothered by Marth too. 

Boron (because she asked not to be pinged) - I don't know what you were expecting. Since I've last posted, all you've done is vote me, with your reasoning being that I'm forgettable and that you didn't like my vote on you, and defend your vote on me. You have not done anything else to make think I voted wrong. I think you having reads on me/Marth in isolation is fine. What's bothering me there is more the lack of self awareness. You're agreeing with Marth's case on me, but you're scumreading him because his cases are lackluster. 

I'm in a weird position where I don't feel great about Marth but I don't vibe with any of the cases on him. I don't think I'd vote him.

Didn't read past Via because I have to go but wanted to post this now to get it out there.

I believe I said I don't know scummeta. If I misspoke then that's on me. Town meta-wise, this reads 1 to 1 with what I  remember from the aforementioned thunderdome game. Where I believe town lost. Also, thanks, I'm trying to do my best and didn't see the tag.

[Sunwoo]

Cam's one content post is okay for coming into the game inebriated, but now that he's (hopefully) sober I'd like for him to give updated reads on things that have happened since then and put down a vote. I'm assuming that his biggest scum read at the time was Makaze and his main town read was Rapier, so it'll be nice to see if/how his thoughts have changed.

Like, it's not amazing but considering his claimed circumstances it's passable and I feel good about him for actually trying to produce a post rather than being all "lol I'm drunk real post later".

I don't have too much issue with Snike, although I'd like to ask why you put Makaze in "neutral weird" despite saying earlier in the same post that he feels like he's playing to his town meta. I can understand why he feels the way he does about Prims, I just don't really agree with it. Don't have a problem with him voting Marth, don't necessarily agree with his reasoning regarding Marth's vote on Refa though. I, uh, also see that he walled since my writing this post, so I will get to that later. His pre-page 13 doesn't strike me as off, so if you asked me to make a snap decision read on him I'd say he feels town more than he doesn't.

Shinori returns with a vengeance. This is a major META ALERT, but from what I remember of Shinori he a tendency as town to aggressively pursue players whom he feels case him for bad reasons as scum. It's, um, a little sus that a single post by Rapier was enough to "flip my read on you", but purely meta-wise this is in line with town Shinori. I hate that I can't explain it besides meta, but Shinori just reads as his town self.

When you get back Shinori, please explain why your vote is still on Weapons if Rapier is now a scum read for you.

I have no issues with Percivale and j00.

I wish Prims had a stronger presence in this game. Like, I don't have an actual issue with his posts. Even if I don't always agree with his points, I can understand where he's coming from and it doesn't feel scummy, just that we have different opinions. If there's anything about Prims that feels scummy, it's that his presence in the game is weak. But I'm not comfortable saying that his lack of presence comes from scum this early on. Will tentatively categorize him as "no issues with content, but not a definite town read due to weak presence".

Also, Prims, pls. I've explained repeatedly that the post in question was meant to be a quick "this is where my reads are now" for you guys to work with before I left the thread for a bit. I'm not going to make a long post with lots of explanations when my eyes hurt from staring at the screen for too long.

This post is getting too long, will have to make another one. MY APOLOGIES.

[Bluedoom]

tbh Boron I acknowledge your explanation but I also stated that I wasn't buying it. And my main thing all this time is that your scumread on me is very hypocritical, even if you internally don't feel so you have to admit that it looks that way.

I don't have any defence or argument to you saying that you don't like my phrasing because at that point I can't really argue about subectivity. I think we'll be talking in circles at this point

 

 

[Sunwoo]

1 minute ago, Bluedoom said:

tbh Boron I acknowledge your explanation but I also stated that I wasn't buying it. And my main thing all this time is that your scumread on me is very hypocritical, even if you internally don't feel so you have to admit that it looks that way.

Hard disagree. I'll accept my scum read on you being called weak or poorly justified, but I will not accept "hypocritical". And I don't have to admit it looks that way because it doesn't.

I also think at this point you're just continuing to hold this vote for bad reasons. Whether it's because I've somehow tilted you personally to the point where you just want to believe I'm scummy no matter what or because you're scum trying to give a reason to not update reads, your insistence that the only reasonable explanation to you is that I'm scum is shite.

[Snike]

Just now, Sunwoo said:

I don't have too much issue with Snike, although I'd like to ask why you put Makaze in "neutral weird" despite saying earlier in the same post that he feels like he's playing to his town meta. I can understand why he feels the way he does about Prims, I just don't really agree with it. Don't have a problem with him voting Marth, don't necessarily agree with his reasoning regarding Marth's vote on Refa though. I, uh, also see that he walled since my writing this post, so I will get to that later. His pre-page 13 doesn't strike me as off, so if you asked me to make a snap decision read on him I'd say he feels town more than he doesn't.

That wasn't me. Those were Prims positions. Just to be specific:
 

Quote

Makaze's reads are Weird, but not sure if it's scummy. Boron's entrance would happen regardless. SK hunting could be privileged info leaking but different people have different perspectives. Remain on Shinori over wolf larp/refuge in audacity. Hedge, hedge, hedge into a fairly safe vote park given Shinori's early posting. Feel free to argue with me about this framing.

These are the reads I gathered from the post I linked. Bold is my emphasis.

and then I read the rest of the blurb and realized you were most likely talking about this bit:
 

Quote

[..] Outside of the Shinori gut read what is there? Neutral defensive on Weapons, neutral on Boron, Neutral Weird on Makaze attributed to playstyle differences.  [...]

Again, this is a distilled summary of what I understood of Prims reads at that time.

Will get back to you once the wall gets broken down.

I'm not seeing the Rapier case. The slot's usually easy to pick up on wrt alignment and I can tell you I've been pleasantly surprised with contributions so far. My big criticism, and this isn't related to scumreading, is the harping on the fluffposting because I don't think  larping is alignment indicative. I don't think my vibe opinion will change but I will look again.

Aside: This text editor + Grammarly = miserable experience.

[Sunwoo]

1 minute ago, Snike said:

That wasn't me. Those were Prims positions. Just to be specific:
 

These are the reads I gathered from the post I linked. Bold is my emphasis.

and then I read the rest of the blurb and realized you were most likely talking about this bit:
 

Again, this is a distilled summary of what I understood of Prims reads at that time.

Will get back to you once the wall gets broken down.

Ah fuck, I've completely misread your post then. Sorry about that. I'll read through your stuff again, but it'll be a while later. I have this one extra post I'm trying to get out, and after I do that I'm going to do something else not mafia-related.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

@Bluedoom what do you think you'd be doing differently if you were scum?

[Makaze]

52 minutes ago, Refa said:

@CT075 Who are you scumreading? My impression from your initial post was that you were scumreading Makaze, but then you didn't vote them which is uh kinda sus.

@Makaze I don't get your BBM reasoning. I'm not talking about the vibes part, or the logic itself, but rather what are you getting out of your vote? If you're just voting someone and you don't think anyone will follow you on it, what exactly is it achieving? Why is Bluedoom bothering you?

@Snike I don't get the logic behind your Makaze read. You mentioned you don't know his meta, but then metaread him anyways. Why? Also you're good about the gender thing, no worries.

@Shinori Regarding your content, it reads as reflexive over defensive to me. It doesn't feel like you post unless it's about you, even though you're not being defensive. I am not scumreading you, but I can get where Charlie's case is coming from. If you think Charlie is terrible for attacking Marth, what about all of the other people (AKA the Marth wagon and then some) who are attacking him for his reason?

@charlie_ Why does the Marth change bother you? I don't believe you've mentioned your thoughts on me/Boron, how does that play into it?

@Prims I get why you'd vote Shinori there, that part doesn't bother me. I don't get how your Makaze read was "this is kinda sus" but ended up NAI. Otherwise I'm vibing with your Makaze reasoning. I don't get why Snike's Marth case pinged you when it reads similar to Charlie's and Boron's to me. This question goes for @BBM too.

@Percivalé I don't get your thought process. You said Town!Weapons is an easy vote for scum and then later say you were about to vote Weapons. I don't really get why you're bothered by Marth too. 

Boron (because she asked not to be pinged) - I don't know what you were expecting. Since I've last posted, all you've done is vote me, with your reasoning being that I'm forgettable and that you didn't like my vote on you, and defend your vote on me. You have not done anything else to make think I voted wrong. I think you having reads on me/Marth in isolation is fine. What's bothering me there is more the lack of self awareness. You're agreeing with Marth's case on me, but you're scumreading him because his cases are lackluster. 

I'm in a weird position where I don't feel great about Marth but I don't vibe with any of the cases on him. I don't think I'd vote him.

Didn't read past Via because I have to go but wanted to post this now to get it out there.

Do you have a specific question would help you understand, or are you just saying you don't get things? You've said you don't get things multiple times, but I'd like to see the conclusions you draw from not getting something, and expect some fruition after getting some answers.

I don't have any solid reasoning for BBM, but I do have a gut feeling, and it is actually based on their first post. They still do not seem to be making any moves and are holding off judgment for later, which while objectively NAI, I would expect some kind of read of how I reacted to their RVS and how I have been tunneling them to have formed. I'm currently reading their distancing from me as recognizing that I cannot be pocketed easily and refusing to engage with an impossible situation, which makes sense as a preservation strategy, but it doesn't explain why they can't form a read on me on top of it.

Snike's opinion on me feels like it could be an attempt to pocket, but he is right about my meta. If anything it feels too easy, like he isn't seriously considering me. Pocket denied, but he could just be right about me, and we'll see if his reads make sense otherwise.

I'm too lazy to explain why I'm scumreading Bluedoom, but I've been getting weird vibes and felt that their reads were not genuine since they first posted, and they have felt like an opportunist who is making moves rather than forming opinions

That's all I've got for the time being, ping me if i'm missing something

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

@Bluedoom what do you think you'd be doing differently if you were scum?

Has this question ever led to anything?
 

Spoiler

Going to go on about a pet peeve for a minute.

IME this kind of question is just a buffer that is used for interactions between scumbuddies or just as commonly a bad question from a town that lets someone opine about their own meta for free, and leads to more neutral reads based on philosophy instead of stuff about this game.

Pretty much the only answer that could be helpful here is a really bad sounding "I wouldn't do anything different as scum because this is how I play", and only the dumbest of players will fall for that even on their worst day.

I'm not saying that asking this has anything to do with your alignment, but I don't think you should take this kind of question as mattering to your opinion, and I think you should try to pin them down on actions they are actually taking.

 

[Sunwoo]

I wasn't sure what to think about Makaze earlier in the game because the one game I remember playing with him, he did a bunch of things that felt scummy to me and was actually town. Reading back on his content though has made me realize how little substance he's actually had. The only thing he really seems to have committed to is "BBM is scum" for ... /reasons/, I suppose? His Marth vote also feels like it wants to be a BBM vote. His reasons for voting Marth are "all kinds of weirdness" (like what?) and "could be scum buddies with BBM". Yeah, uh, I could see Makaze being scum.

The BBM stuff also doesn't really contribute to the game and move it along either, because there are no actual reasons for it that someone else can go look at and decide for themselves whether they agree or not, but it can /look/ like they're contributing because they're still technically posting stuff about the game and its players.

You know what, it's definitely worse than I initially thought.

##Unvote

##Vote: @Makaze

Not contributing is one thing. But making it look like you are when you're not is a whole other thing.

PEDIT: Makaze's post above me kinda reinforces why I'm voting him, so.

Still have a scum read on Refa, they haven't really done anything to change my mind. I have no idea what their actual scum reads are currently besides still parking a vote on me. Their last post doesn't really give any actual thoughts except justifying their vote on me and that they wouldn't vote Marth despite not feeling great about him and not scum reading Shinori. I realize they haven't read everything, but even so it bothers me that I literally have no idea how they feel about other people they've asked questions/replied to.

Getting massively annoyed with Marth, so I think I'm going to step back from this until I'm less irritated. More interesting stuff has happened now that more people have posted, and considering that my biggest issue with him now is the tunnel vision and abrupt flip on me I think it's best if I look at that at a time when I'm less cranky.

I'm not gonna lie, I've got nothing for Elie and SB because I've been trying to reply to other stuff and their posts never really stuck in my brain. Throwing Elie and SB into the "read later" pile with Snike.

[Snike]

Wow i hate this editor. Yes I definitely want to reload my previous post.

I have a family dinner coming up, will be back after that. But first,

Makaze, it's less trying to gloss over you as much as I'm not willing to get into it with you yet on your reads. I specifically think the Prims/weapons one is wrong/ too hasty as an example.

See you all later.

[Refa]

@Bluedoom @j00 I keep reading that I’m active lurking, I think you should link posts where I’m not actively pressuring people or working on a read. It should be easy to do if you’re right and there’s no reason not too! 

@Rapier You never answered my question from before. Also I never voted Shinori nor have I even scumread Shinori (Snike mentioned this too, very confusing) so not sure where you’re getting that from. I feel like you’re not really reading my posts. What makes Elieson’s Makaze read stuck in RVS compared to your Makaze read?

@Makaze I literally asked you the question right after said I don’t get it. That means I don’t understand the thought process and want an answer to determine if there’s scum intent or not. If I stop pushing someone or am satisfied with their responses, you should know where my read is at without me explicitly saying it. My problem with you is not your reads themselves but how you’re going about pursuing them. Its fine to gutread people but your interactions do not read like you pursuing those reads.

Boron, I don’t like how all of your scumreads are because people lack presence. Im fine with your town/null reads but your actual pressure this game doesn’t feel genuine to me. Itd be one thing if you were struggling to get reads but Im not getting that impression from you.

Had to do some soul searching here because I feel like most of j00s content has also been town/null reads but the actual scumreads themselves I can understand more. So I think that’s what differentiates a player who bothers me and a player who doesn’t.

Here’s where my head is at the moment:

-I’m feeling better about Bluedoom. Earlier it felt like all of his content was laser focused on a specific interaction and his other reads since then have been deece.

-Cam’s one post was fine but I really don’t like the Makaze scumread into not voting Makaze

-Makaze is sus. He has reads but he’s not pushing them or really meaningfully interacting besides explaining his reads.

-Shinori I get the cases on but I am not reading scum intent there? It feels like his earlier actions are scummy but not his thought process. I like his Rapier case honestly. I probably have to reread Rapier because of it though so thanks for nothing Shinori. Wouldn’t vote.

-I don’t think Snike is scum. The things people are calling him out for are things like three other people have done in this thread and everyone is fine with those. I’d like to know the difference between these reads and what makes Snike look worse.

-I’m not bothered by Boron not voting me initially, I think that’s a weak point.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

I wasn't sure what to think about Makaze earlier in the game because the one game I remember playing with him, he did a bunch of things that felt scummy to me and was actually town. Reading back on his content though has made me realize how little substance he's actually had. The only thing he really seems to have committed to is "BBM is scum" for ... /reasons/, I suppose? His Marth vote also feels like it wants to be a BBM vote. His reasons for voting Marth are "all kinds of weirdness" (like what?) and "could be scum buddies with BBM". Yeah, uh, I could see Makaze being scum.

The BBM stuff also doesn't really contribute to the game and move it along either, because there are no actual reasons for it that someone else can go look at and decide for themselves whether they agree or not, but it can /look/ like they're contributing because they're still technically posting stuff about the game and its players.

You know what, it's definitely worse than I initially thought.

##Unvote

##Vote: @Makaze

Not contributing is one thing. But making it look like you are when you're not is a whole other thing.

PEDIT: Makaze's post above me kinda reinforces why I'm voting him, so.

Still have a scum read on Refa, they haven't really done anything to change my mind. I have no idea what their actual scum reads are currently besides still parking a vote on me. Their last post doesn't really give any actual thoughts except justifying their vote on me and that they wouldn't vote Marth despite not feeling great about him and not scum reading Shinori. I realize they haven't read everything, but even so it bothers me that I literally have no idea how they feel about other people they've asked questions/replied to.

Getting massively annoyed with Marth, so I think I'm going to step back from this until I'm less irritated. More interesting stuff has happened now that more people have posted, and considering that my biggest issue with him now is the tunnel vision and abrupt flip on me I think it's best if I look at that at a time when I'm less cranky.

I'm not gonna lie, I've got nothing for Elie and SB because I've been trying to reply to other stuff and their posts never really stuck in my brain. Throwing Elie and SB into the "read later" pile with Snike.

Is there a specific type of content that would help you relate to me?

[Refa]

cut to me immediately being proven wrong

okay gimme a sec

[Bluedoom]

Tbh I have a hard time believing that none of the people sus of me are mafia but if someone asked me who is likelier to flip mafia I'd have a tough time answering that question.

 

-I think Rapier's logic for voting me isn't good. You don't think its concerning that the reasons I'm being voted/sussed for are voting refa/a list post on page 5 instead of my vote on Boron? Are you not concerned that this could be the scenario where scum are either defending their buddy boron/refa or are chainsaw defending them to pocket them? You say that I make sense, then in the event where I am town, from your perspective this would be a major concern. Why would flipping me be useful, its actually worse. That said I don't want to pursue this line because I genuinely think you're town and the last time I cased you on bad logic that ended up in a mislynch, pretty paranoid of that happening again.

-I think charlie's is the closest I can get behind, but also, not sure what to say because at that point in time I felt like calling out the hypocrisy was merited.

-I don't really have an answer to Makaze's vote on me and have no idea what I'd even have to say there. I think bringing me up as consolidation is bad but as I noted earlier I don't see him trying to convince anyone of his reads...and I feel like scum!Makaze would want to do that more.

-Gun to head I'd vote Snike here because I think ignoring my boron vote until it was pointed out and then doubling down on the reasoning saying that my handling of the vote justifies his read on my listpost looks pretty bad.

-I'm frustrated with Boron because it feels like I'm just being told that everything I said is bad when its like. Dude. Even if I'm wrong about you think from the other side lol. Doubling down and saying that everything I said sucked all along isn't conducive to discussion if that is your intention. That said I'm going to ##Unvote Because I'm not interested in continuing this and am aware that I'm tunneling at this point.

[BT.]

Apologies, 3 AM start time + full day of work.

 

17 hours ago, Rapier said:

Prims is now an undefined fantastic object, which is coincidentally one of my favorite of the series despite not enjoying bullet hells that much.

☝️💯

 

17 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

If someone could be so absolutely certain of someone's alignment based off a single post, that person would either be a far better player than me.

Makaze being so certain that I'm town based off two (or one) post(s) is really odd. I'd say it's scummy, but I have no idea what the scum intent of buddying up to me is.

Kinda weird, why wouldn't there be scum intent in buddying anyone? Why is it scum buddying vs scum placing down a free town read?

 

re: page 4: prims' early proactivity seems good to me, not sure why people got on his case for this

 

16 hours ago, Rapier said:

hi!!

...

I also feel that my vote is a way of raising the stakes on earlygame D1 discussion, so I feel correct on bidding double despite my read not being that good.

I do like this as an early vote, but don't like the last part feeling the need to add in more justification

 

16 hours ago, Rapier said:

I don't understand this reasoning at all, or what [Weapons'] vote tries to accomplish. ...

Weapons would be my second pick for a vote.

ignores that maka (scumread #1) immediately casted doubt on weapons as well - would have at least expected a comment on that

refa also seems pretty passive here, being around and asking questions but mostly null/townreading people

 

15 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

I don't need to question Refa if I think he's just having a background presence, like what am I supposed to say, "Hey yeah dude I noticed that you didn't go anywhere with your reads, explain" isn't getting me anywhere, just vote the guy and make him come up with stuff when there's a wagon on him.

I don't hate marth's initial post but agree w/ the lack of followup on it, no comment on refa explaining their reads / lack thereof, this keeps happening even later on

 

15 hours ago, Rapier said:

...

I agree with the last part, it's hard to get concrete reads on people right on early D1 and it makes sense to read some reactions going both ways. I could just have been grasping at straws due to lack of D1 content solidity. But I still find your lack of pursuit on Refa strange for the aforementioned reasons.

another case of feeling the need to justify behavior, I see people saying it's in-character, I guess I'm willing to buy it because the vibe in the rest of the posts is far from timid

 

15 hours ago, Shinori said:

Apparently this post didn't load before I just sent that post.

But to answer your question, no idea. I'd have to recheck the people that have posted against me.  I thought prims was fine, seemed like just a reaching RVS vote.  Everything afterthat was weird because so many people seemed to jump to talk about me or comment on me.

Which could mean I'm town and there is scum intent behind the weird posts talking about me, or I'm scum and everyone is mind melding perfectly to catch me day 1!

don't like this joker energy, and the "weird posts talking about me" feels like a boogieman - it wasn't that weird that people mentioned you at that point, is this theatrics or do you actually think it's scum minded?

gonna put this here for now + shower + finish reading

[Refa]

Boron’s Makaze vote is throwing me for a loop. It’s not uh…what I’d expect Scum!Boron to place her vote on. I hate it here.

Im currently kinda busy at the moment. Boron, you mentioned Elie/SB. Can you get those rereads done when you get back? I’m pretty sure I need to reevaluate things and that would definitely help.

[Bluedoom]

18 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

@Bluedoom what do you think you'd be doing differently if you were scum?

Well I wouldn't vote boron because I'm aware of the fact that people will use level 1 logic and be like "oh he voted someone who scumread him that looks bad"

I probably wouldn't enter the thread during rvs and hop in maybe 16 hours into the game because I don't think I've ever come out of an RVS without being wagoned as town.

 

[charlie_]

 

Rapier's re-entrance is preeetty weird with the Shinori interaction with the Shinori push without uh, actually apparently reading the interaction I had with him which was what he was criticised I think. Rapier do you have any thoughts on recent Marth posts btw or is it kind of just the same?

Elie's intro's kinda iffy wrt reasons for Makaze vote just being quoted stuff and the BBM scumread's kinda just there? I don't think that you can't share a scumread with another one of your scumreads, but using the Makaze post to reference their BBM is kind of throwing me a bit. Asking for gutread explanations is kind of pointless but I would like to know at what point (roughly) your gutread developed even if you can't explain it.

(Snike):

From the start? Specifically, what pinged me on both of the scumreads I'm not voting right now was top of page 4. What's throwing me off is the explaining thoughts bit when I very much have a mental image of town!Weapons being very witty and concise in a way that's not replicated here. The vibes posting felt a little closer to that but I'm not over the self-concern I was reading into it.

Mmk, thanks. I don't really feel confident to fly with the meta read but I get what you're trying to say.

In general I think this response post is townier, ftr. It reads like stubborn town standing their ground more than anything (especially the fire back at Prims feels like he's confident he's right). 

(Refa):

Why does the Marth change bother you? I don't believe you've mentioned your thoughts on me/Boron, how does that play into it?

Basically, whiplash from how fast it came. Nothing else Marth has posted has really bothered me though so I'm not reading into it too much, and idt your alignment or Boron's plays into it because of how early in the game it was. Even if Marth was maf there he wouldn't really care much since ED1 is kind of an afterthought for most people beyond the first 24 hours or so.

I still read Boron as null because I think they're capable of making the posts they've done as either alignment. My opinion on your is "iffy" because I think being inquisitive is fine but I struggled to actually understand your opinions until the latest post, which is admittedly better.

This is getting long so I'm going to cut this and continue in a new post.

[charlie_]

Btw if anyone knows how to actually put the text back in quote headers so they don't look horrendous after copypasting them out to notepad I would be eternally grateful.

[Makaze]

  

 

18 minutes ago, Refa said:

@Bluedoom @j00 I keep reading that I’m active lurking, I think you should link posts where I’m not actively pressuring people or working on a read. It should be easy to do if you’re right and there’s no reason not too! 

@Rapier You never answered my question from before. Also I never voted Shinori nor have I even scumread Shinori (Snike mentioned this too, very confusing) so not sure where you’re getting that from. I feel like you’re not really reading my posts. What makes Elieson’s Makaze read stuck in RVS compared to your Makaze read?

@Makaze I literally asked you the question right after said I don’t get it. That means I don’t understand the thought process and want an answer to determine if there’s scum intent or not. If I stop pushing someone or am satisfied with their responses, you should know where my read is at without me explicitly saying it. My problem with you is not your reads themselves but how you’re going about pursuing them. Its fine to gutread people but your interactions do not read like you pursuing those reads.

Boron, I don’t like how all of your scumreads are because people lack presence. Im fine with your town/null reads but your actual pressure this game doesn’t feel genuine to me. Itd be one thing if you were struggling to get reads but Im not getting that impression from you.

Had to do some soul searching here because I feel like most of j00s content has also been town/null reads but the actual scumreads themselves I can understand more. So I think that’s what differentiates a player who bothers me and a player who doesn’t.

Here’s where my head is at the moment:

-I’m feeling better about Bluedoom. Earlier it felt like all of his content was laser focused on a specific interaction and his other reads since then have been deece.

-Cam’s one post was fine but I really don’t like the Makaze scumread into not voting Makaze

-Makaze is sus. He has reads but he’s not pushing them or really meaningfully interacting besides explaining his reads.

-Shinori I get the cases on but I am not reading scum intent there? It feels like his earlier actions are scummy but not his thought process. I like his Rapier case honestly. I probably have to reread Rapier because of it though so thanks for nothing Shinori. Wouldn’t vote.

-I don’t think Snike is scum. The things people are calling him out for are things like three other people have done in this thread and everyone is fine with those. I’d like to know the difference between these reads and what makes Snike look worse.

-I’m not bothered by Boron not voting me initially, I think that’s a weak point.

I do not feel a need to pressure my scum reads, because I do not believe that will reveal anything if they have not already. It should be clear by now, including to me, that none of my claims about having strong reads are being taken seriously, so I'd rather try to find the town while the rest of you catch up to me since I am probably right anyway.

I think there might be a disconnect between how I approach and how literally anyone else approaches it, and this is one of things I have to improve on compared to the last game too, and that's that when I decide to scum read someone, I write off all of their actions and focus on convincing everyone else, instead of challenging my scumread directly.

Now that you mention it I have had a habit of not interacting with people unless I am town reading them

I am not sure how to approach this game, but I am going to start interacting, so thanks for prodding

[Makaze]

2 hours ago, Elieson said:

Good morning. I started reading the game when it was at 5 pages. Took my dog out for a walk, then dozed off when i got back in. It's been a long two weeks filled with moving and back pain. Feeling good today.

IDK why my post lost the Makaze post that was talking about an SK but this one stuck so i'm just rolling with it. Makaze bringing up an SK this early and actually considering a read or more around it seems weird. Sounds like fear-mongering. I'm with Prims here; feels weird. Noting for later.

I'm actually agreeing with Rapier here too. It piggybacks Prims' point about Makaze producing content that feels off/forced.

I WAS NOT ACTUALLY TYPING BTW, I was just in here.

See, I'm vibing BBM Mafia; something just feels off but I haven't ISO'd him because I'm waiting until the day is about 1/2 done before I start doing ISOs (also because I am lazy/tired and haven't set up the ISO script yet).

I don't remember why this was multi-quoted but I'm not deleting it because I wanna come back to it and reference it later.

 

##Vote @Makaze

 

I admittedly have not read pages 10/11 because this light-mode interface is murdering my eyes, but out of everything I've read thus far, Makaze feels more forced in what they're putting out. Casual Townread on Prims and Boron and Refa. Scum vibes on BBM. Rapier, I can't figure out, because if my old man memory serves correct, every read I've had on Rapier in my lifetime has been backwards and I'm not interested in trying to make sense of that later. Shinori being sarcastic reeks of town too; There's attitude sarcasm and there's complaining sarcasm; Shinori's exhibiting the latter, and I don't see that as scummy.

Which posts stuck out to you as forced, and/or who helped convinced that they were?

[Bluedoom]

Oh yeah since there's been a lot of talk about Shinori, no I don't think he's mafia. I can agree with him being defensive but that isn't alignment indicative and I'm p sure he's using perception of himself on some level for the reads which is fine honestly. I don't think I've seen anything to warrant a scumread and think his approach to his reads has been fine, actually a lot better than I remember playing with him.

I'm going to sleep this one off and drop by later, think I've said my piece for now, want to see how the thread develops for the time being.