(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Shinori]

Does town!Refa really go Makaze in that situation if they are getting wagon'd?  I kind of don't want Refa lynched personally but I'm gonna think on it more, I'm sitting on close to 20 ish hours of no sleep or something so I maybe in a haze.

[Sunwoo]

Just now, Shinori said:

Does town!Refa really go Makaze in that situation if they are getting wagon'd?  I kind of don't want Refa lynched personally but I'm gonna think on it more, I'm sitting on close to 20 ish hours of no sleep or something so I maybe in a haze.

Go to sleep, dude

[charlie_]

How strongly do you believe in the vote Shinori?

(I see your post Boron but feel like I would need to reread Marth to see how much I agree with it.)

[charlie_]

I've thought "yeah I'll spend 5 more minutes playing mafia" for like half an hour so now I'm actually going to bed. Probably won't be able to post before getting back from work but I'll be back before deadline.

[Shinori]

3 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

You said you were waiting on more from Weapons before but never actually followed up - how do you go from this to voting for Percy with a reason that assumes that Weapons is town?

Because I can admit if I'm wrong and my initial gut reaction was "I don't like this post by Perci, and I don't see the logic behind it from a town perspective."

I can scumread weapons and then still react to something that pings me.  My weapons read has gotten a bit weaker but their reads are kind of weird to me but it looks to me like there is genuine effort there to solve the game.

So at the time that my weapons read is going down in strength, someone comes along and posts something that I gut read as TMI and I decided to test the waters a bit and now I'm currently chewing on that thought process still.

I'm not confident on the read at all at the moment because, like I said, I'm still thinking on the thought on if this was Scum!Perci cracking under a light bit of pressure or if this is just emotional town!perci talking from a town perspective.

Like from a gameplay perspective if I rule out emotion, I leave my vote on Perci like 80-20.  but with emotion in play it becomes really hard for me to say.

[BT.]

@WeaponsofMassConstruction When did you start scumleaning on Refa? Only time you've talked about them is a super early townread.

[BT.]

Nevermind you literally answered it later and I'm blind. That makes sense, and to answer your own question I don't think you're scum after reading your ISO.

[Iris]

 Iris™ Votals: Day 1.5 (~28 hours left)

Refa (5): Bluedoom, BT., j00, Prims, WeaponsofMassConstruction (L-5!)
Makaze (3): Elieson, Refa, Sunwoo
WeaponsofMassConstruction (2): BBM, Rapier
Bluedoom (2): Makaze, Snike
Percivale (1): Shinori
Rapier (1): charlie
Not Voting (2): CT075, Percivale
* Votals are listed by largest wagon and then alphabetically; votes are also listed alphabetically. I will probably change this in future days to chronological voting, if I still have to manually votal. But let's hope the bot is good for tomorrow. You can see the full voting history below. DM me if there are any errors.

The player with the most votes at the end of the Day phase will be Eliminated! With 16 alive, it takes 6 votes minimum to Eliminate a player and 10 votes to Hammer the phase early! Day 1 ends at 8:00 PM EDT on May 28th.

 

VOTING HISTORY - Day 1

Page 2:
Rapier votes for Prims
Snike votes for Rapier
Sunwoo votes for Snike
Shinori votes for Elieson
Prims votes for Snike
Refa votes for Makaze
Prims votes for Shinori

Page 3:
BBM votes for Makaze
Makaze votes for BBM

Page 4:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Prims
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction
Rapier votes for Makaze
Sunwoo votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 5:
Shinori votes for Elieson
Bluedoom votes for Refa
Rapier votes for BBM

Page 6:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Sunwoo
Rapier votes for Bluedoom

Page 7:
Refa votes for Sunwoo
Bluedoom votes for Sunwoo
Sunwoo votes for Refa

Page 8:
BBM votes for Prims

Page 9:
Makaze votes for Bluedoom
Shinori votes for Prims

Page 10:
Snike votes for Bluedoom
charlie votes for Shinori
Prims votes for Snike
BBM votes for Snike
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 11:
Percivale votes for Bluedoom
j00 votes for Refa

Page 12:
Elieson votes for Makaze

Page 13:

Sunwoo votes for Makaze
Bluedoom unvotes

Page 14:
charlie votes for Rapier

Page 15:
BT. votes for Refa
j00 votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 16:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes Rapier
Prims votes Makaze

Page 17:
BBM votes WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 18:
Bluedoom votes charlie
Refa votes Makaze

Page 19:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes Elieson
Prims votes for Refa

Page 20:
j00 votes for Refa
Percivale unvotes

Page 21:
Bluedoom votes for Refa

Page 22:
Rapier votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction
Shinori votes for Percivale

 

Edited May 28 by Iris

[Makaze]

43 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

The votals from the previous page are interesting because aside from null!BT I think I townread the entire Refa wagon and from their last post it didn't look like Refa had problems with most of them either. @Refa Do you have any thoughts on this? Would also like Makaze's take on this because they posted them but I'm not sure how seriously/what to make of their Weapons cfd comment

I am not town reading Bluedoom and I am suspicious of how they switched to them. But I agree. I asked earlier which wagon had the most town (in others opinion).

I'd still like to hear that for anyone who is doing vote analysis

[BT.]

1 hour ago, charlie_ said:

I'm also curious: why is Elieson one of your listed scumreads if you don't want them vigged? They're probably never dying to lynch.

After thinking about it, yeah a vig there is totally fine. My gut reaction was that it's too early but I've been away from mafia for too long to remember that we do in fact use vigs like that.

[Rapier]

2 hours ago, Shinori said:

I have posted drastically less since then, I'm so very confused.

I've actively done less, yet some peoples thoughts on me have improved which is just so weird.

I mean from your first interaction with SB onwards, which was around page 7-9. I recall you went to sleep and that's when your content dropped, but you're still one of the top posters.

1 hour ago, Percivalé said:

last night while I was reading my eyes were so glazed over I'd been reading posts without seeing who the post author was and would be like "this is a scum post" then check back and it was refa who posted it.

this is gold, sorry

I agree with Shinori that Percivale (via?)'s reaction is terrible. At first I assumed they meant "hey, I'm not too sure about Weapons but if they flip then we'd get leads on other people", but I'm skeptical about assuming people who voted him are genuinely scum ganging up on town. Lynching someone who's town doesn't tell the wagon's alignment, people make mistakes and it's more productive to ISO them and look for which reason seems convenient/badly structured/flimsy.

At first I thought Percivale was just late to the party and had a lot to read, which is horrible when you're tired and busy, but this behavior seems convenient for scum to retort to.

1 hour ago, charlie_ said:

This.

Makaze's posting got a bit better when they actually like, dug into BBM's posts - like this is just objectively better than before but the self-admitted gutread => actual reason pipeline on BBM makes actually criticising the read awkward because the criticism has already been preempted.[...]

[...]Wrt Weapons he posted here and here about having misremembered something in your posts before switching off - does this progression affect your read on him at all? And do you have any thoughts about the Refa wagon (which I think is leading atm) because you said the Weapons one would be easy to vote just before voting for him so I'm a bit confused here. Like obviously you won't suspect your own vote on him, but does other people pushing for other wagons when Weapons is supposedly easy bother you at all?

This is getting long so I'm just going to post and continue.

Agree regarding Makaze

Also I think Weapons remembering I had doubts isn't much of a strong reason to flip your read on someone. He said he reread me and then vaguely justified his unvote as he didn't feel like continuing with the wagon, but that was after players called him out for it, which is what feels like self-conscious scum to me. If it at least had some justification other than "it's just how I suddenly feel", I'd feel better with it.

I'm having issues finding the original votes on Weapons (I'm too dumb to use the search engine effectively), but from what I recall, BBM felt he was scum way before voting him but chose to go for Snike at the moment, then agreed with Weapons' reasons for voting me but found him scummy because I "didn't feel scummy but Weapons' actions feel scummy"

I honestly don't remember why Shinori is voting for Weapons and I'd like to ask @Shinori what he thinks so far now that we're 24 hours close to the deadline. Also, is SB still a better vote than Weapons? You said you only voted him temporarily but that you found SB scummier. I don't see how productive it is to vote for Percivale on late D1 when there's so little content and we have too little time to judge their D1 content. They feel like a better vote for D2, imo same as Elie.

For people who voted Weapons then dropped the case, j00 voted him for coasting on the opinions of others, which imo he did twice (both in RVS, which is less bad, and then on my wagon, and then leaving my wagon after being called for it), but iirc it was a vote for gauging a reaction from Weapons and not a lynch vote, and they switched to Refa later. I agree with this, since coasting is not necessarily a scum tell and could be an indecisive townie.

[Rapier]

to be fair, I'm not opposed to voting Percivale but I don't think now is the time for it, what with the deadline being <24 hours and there being so little content from them while many others have shown more concerning contents right now. It's something I expect to see expanded upon on D2, but that's it for D1 imo.

[Rapier]

Not a fan of Weapons' vote on Refa. Not just because it's convenient to vote for a competing wagon, but because his reasons to find Refa scummy are bad imo (he feels Refa is playing as his scum meta (alright, I can't object to that) and that if he were town he'd be towntelling more (what), then admits to not really reading his posts, so ??????

I'm comfortable lynching Weapons for D1, honestly. I'll figure out how to take a look on Refa's wagon as well.

[Percivalé]

I'll be caught up by D2 so if you have questions for me now give em to me I'll expand when I get back. I thought that D1 ended today which is why I was in such a rush

proper reaponsencoming later I promise however im noticing something, shinori & rapier are looking into my semantics too much, no I dont know if weapons is town or not that's why I'm curious about his role flip ?_? cuz I thought he was scum to begin with but his later content got way better. yeah I'm saying IF he is town because I literally don't know. but he's not someone I would want to elim today, I'd want to elim refa. I was just saying IN THE context of the people who might be elimmed today weapons is one of them that I can see, the main wagons have been refa weapons bluedoom so it's possible weapons may be elimmed and I'm curious to see what that role flip is but he's not who I'd vote today. I think what's happening here is I'm trying to use more straightforward language, cuz way back when I was really bad at fluffing everything up with I feel this I feel that I think I so maybe and I'm falling into that pitfall again but the way I worded that was bad yeah. I don't think I'm playing well right now but I legitimately am busy, not that I think that should bar me from being suspect, and I welcome people to press me D2 if they want, but I am overwhelmed and behind at the current moment so keep that in mind. I will play better when I get caught up hopefully.

also yes @ shinori I haven't played in 6 years. I did mention that in my very first content post but I mentioned it in a jokey way so it's ok if you missed it. my maf play has definitely atrophied because I avoided maf altogether cuz it was a serious addiction for me. anyway yeah more when I get home

[BT.]

@Rapier Your ISO has a high ratio of talking about people voting Refa and very little on Refa until 4 hours ago, and even then you still preferred to vote Weapons. Why? Can't tell why you chose one wagon over the other or why you've consistently shown so little attention towards that slot (I know it's a 16 player game and all but as I've said, ctrl+f Refa in your ISO and they're there, but you avoided talking about Refa themselves until just recently). "I recall this is the second time Refa goes with Shinori's opinion without elaborating much further, first time being when I first voted Shinori for the "90% joking and 10% defending himself" accusations during early D1. I don't like how convenient and sidewaved this is." It would have been nice if you said this the first time it happened too. 😅 Saying voting Weapons off is good because of all the associative reads we'd get is pretty awful considering the exact same can be said about the other wagon.

[Percivalé]

I wouldn't be opposed to bluedoom elim either but I am not caught up on his recent content at all

[CT075]

i think i should stop trying to longer posts with tons of quotes and justification because it takes way too long and is exhausting, also compiling quotes is highkey suffering. i now remember why i had a reputation for lurking back in the day

I’m dropping this now because I’m in a rush, it is (still) incomplete, but hopefully will give people a better idea of where I’m at

• On myself:
  • Anyone talking about consolidation is insane, we still have almost a full day left and most of the thread is active (not that I’m contributing to that). It’s hard for me to read this neutrally because I also think that consolidating on me specifically is also insane; why am I worse than any of the actual inactives? I apparently have multiple content posts meaning literally two (and, FMPOV, the second is closer to an empty unvote – I already said that I just forgot to vote in my first post)? Is “not voting” indicative of scum intent, or is it just bad play in general? If the accusation is that I’m playing like shit (regardless of alignment), yeah, I’d agree with that.
  • A few people said that my “yeah ill sheep prims wrt Snike” was lazy, which is, uh, correct! I put that into the post draft intending to come back to it but I never did and should have just not said anything about it because I don’t think I have any independent thoughts about it.
• On Makaze:
  • Took a deeper look at the BBM case. I don’t agree with it, but they seem to generally be making more of an effort to Lynch The Bad Guy (which, you know, is our job here) instead of just stating “yeah they’re scum” in a vacuum. That, plus the lynchproof/gov claim means yeah let’s go elsewhere.
  • I do think that people switching off of Makaze solely citing playstyle differences is a little convenient, but also I basically did that as well so w/e. This will be a good place to go with associative flips later in the game, I think.
• On the Bluedoom wagon:
  • Makaze’s justification is “consolidating there until something better” and “fits in with a BBM scumteam”, which… doesn’t make sense to me? Since there were no prior votes on Marth if these votals are to be believed, so what consolidation is happening, exactly? FWIW I don’t think this is directly scummy because there are more opportunistic wagons to jump on and Makaze has not struck me thus far as the type of player to hard switch to a new target as some kind of scum gambit.
  • Snike comes in with a “list posts are bad” justification. I know I just said that I have no original opinions about this, but I will say that my initial impression of this post was that it was fine comma I guess? Looking back and seeing that this was actually the second vote on the Marth wagon makes me think that it actually doesn’t make as much sense as a “safe” scum park as Prims initially said? Maybe I could see it as an aggressive scum play to start a counterwagon off of Boron (???), but this is a crackpot theory that I will not argue for further.
  • Percy’s post is honestly fine. I find his writing style a little difficult to read (not your fault, I’m just very bad at reading stream-of-consciousness type writing these days).
  • Rapier’s vote is a bit weird? I can’t articulate why and, in service of not delaying this post by another two hours while I figure it out, I’m just going to leave it at that.

(by the way, I realized as I’m hitting post on this and getting up from my computer to leave that all of the above analysis is actually wrong because Rapier was the actual first vote on Marth and the votals didn’t pick it up. I was even townreading Rapier off of that initial vote! That said, there is a POV where others may have been fooled by the same issue, so please keep the errata in mind when re-reading this post)

as for the other wagons:

IMO Weapons is similar to Makaze in that they’ve been making posts that don’t really advance the understanding of the town with regards to why a given person’s actions are alignment-indicative, but gives a bit more of a veneer of justification. I need to stop letting myself get intimidated by decade-old meta and reputation and let myself look at this more objectively. Posts like this one tell me very little about what’s going on in your head, and I don’t like that.

Something about the Refa wagon bugs me. I think I largely agree with the existing arguments that their posts have been very inconsequential, but it doesn’t feel like it (the wagon) formed all that naturally? I’m very annoyed in that Prims and BT both just empty voted for Refa (this strictly isn’t indicative of anything, it just meant that I had to go back farther to find the initial justification).

This elaboration by Prims feels really nitpicky – is the idea that Refa is making an easy prod on me to fake putting pressure on a scumread, or something? And then “Elie is explicitly in null instead of absent entirely” is a stretch IMO.

I wanted to write more but this post has already been delayed by six hours (thanks IRL) so if there is more that you want my thoughts on or if I’m not explaining myself well, please ask

##vote: @WeaponsOfMassConstruction

Weapons – What towntells were you looking for, WRT Refa? Why does Prims’ posts being really well-thought out make him not scum (I’m also townreading Prims, but it feels like a non-sequitur)? Can you go into more detail about how, exactly, you’re eliminating your townreads?

[CT075]

okay the reason my posts are supersized is because i'm typing them up as markdown and rendering to html so i don't have to deal with rich text, deal with it

[CT075]

basically i think the bluedoom wagon feels reasonably natural and refa's does not. I will try to get a post-by-post look in later but in general opinions on Refa are so scattered (as in, they pervade like the entire 24 pages) that it'll take a while and I need to see it in context.

[CT075]

also when i say it is incomplete i mean it is because it does not cover my thoughts on every relevant event in the thread but I also am increasingly convinced that these recap-type posts are too unhelpful for me to write relative to the effort it takes to make them

[BT.]

@Rapier Here are some quotes from you w/ matching post numbers.

#164: Makaze, Weapons: Leaning slightly toward scum. Weapons seems to be leaning slightly more towards town rn because after interacting with him, I'm a bit doubtful if he had scum intent.

#357: Weapons seems like a confused townie but could go either way - I still don't want to judge him for RVS stuff.

#496: I think it'd make more sense for you [BBM] to vote me instead, since we had around 36 hours left when you made this post and you could've pressed me for content, but instead you voted for someone you feel is scummy (although I understand and agree with your [BBM] reasons on Weapons).

#512: BBM I like slightly less, because his reasons against me are ok, but his [BBM's] reasons against Weapons seem way too subjective/"gut feeling" and it has been an easy wagon to push for a while. Of all the reasons from the people voting Weapons, his seem the weakest and most convenient imo.

This just seems like a mess? You can't make a conclusion on Weapons, then you agree w/ BBM on him (and also don't?), all the while establishing you're also fine voting there. I don't know, I'm reading your stated reason for voting Weapons in the recent post and this doesn't feel like a real read. Have you read the slot and got a handle for what his play feels like? Because I did, and I have a conclusion about it, but I'm not getting the feeling that you've done that yourself.

[Elieson]

Holy shit 24 pages

[BT.]

27 minutes ago, CT075 said:

Something about the Refa wagon bugs me. I think I largely agree with the existing arguments that their posts have been very inconsequential, but it doesn’t feel like it (the wagon) formed all that naturally? I’m very annoyed in that Prims and BT both just empty voted for Refa (this strictly isn’t indicative of anything, it just meant that I had to go back farther to find the initial justification).

Sorry, my original vote was right there with the case. I "empty" revoted because the bot didn't pick up on it the first time. I think Prims did the same actually. Sure, though, I'll bite - you say the wagon may have formed unnaturally but can you actually point at what made you think that? Not denying it, rather genuinely curious because I want to have a healthy dose of paranoia about it myself.

[j00]

@Refa You feel disconnected/detached because eg. in your analysis post you don't change your vote from Makaze so I assume you still find them the scummiest, but then don't comment on their latest antics other than replying to their question that was directly aimed at you. Like what do you think about """lynchproof""" crumb or whatever? It just doesn't seem like you're feeling the case much and that's sorta the overall tone I get from your reads.

Uuughh Rapier feels like overeager town being all over the place. I think he had a pretty strong start of the phase, and though I don't agree with most of his reads it feels like genuine intent. Stuff like 

Quote

How isn't Cam pursuing his scumreads? He did lay a vote later after justification, but then he didn't show up again, so I think this is more because he has less posts overall than not pursuing scumreads.

just feels like a genuine mistake (Cam didn't vote until now). Maybe he's sloppy scum but it all feels too careless to me? I don't want to vote him today, the earlier Rapier/Marth/Boron interactions came off as town infighting to me.

@CT075 You say the Refa wagon feels off and mentions Prims and BT, what do you feel about their other reads, do they also feel constructed? Eg. you were willing to sheep Prims on Snike earlier.

[BT.]

I'll also add my dislike towards whoever suggested CT/Cam as a consolidation lynch, not because it was too early (we're 2/3rds of the way there now) but because I find them plenty agreeable.