(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

2 hours ago, BBM said:

 

@WeaponsofMassConstruction you said you had trouble following prims's snike case. why? what made it weird and what's your opinion on snike? quick ctrl+f can't find anything else from you but this about him. also i'm trying to read your last post but it's so stream of consciousness that i can't tell where one thought ends and the next one starts between rapier and j00. are you saying that you don't like that j00 is just prodding, or are you responding in some way to her vote against you?

@Makaze i mean tells don't have to be universally correct all the time but that doesnt mean there isn't a specific tell in that moment.

weapons's last post didn't make him less suspicious to me but he did make a good point about rapier. so i'm trying to figure out how i feel about that dichotomy via his non-rapier thoughts. also weapons and rapier are prooobably #2 and #3 for me right now but like I said they don't really fit together as scum so I don't feel comfortable with that state of affairs. will re-read rapier after eating

are you asking me who I think is town or who I think is scum?

I think I touched on it a little above but it was interesting to me cause he made these points on Makaze where I could really see where they were coming from, and it was perfectly easy to read, but then his actual vote went on Snike and my brain was just refusing to process the why. So it was like, you can make a really clean point here, but then why not so for your actual vote? Maybe in particular though because I felt Snike's entrance was pretty town. Lemme go back and reread though.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Yeah ok I went back to reread that and Snike's post. Yeah I don't particularly agree with listposting 3 hours in as a bad thing, but I think that would be a really weird main reason to knowingly falsely commit to as scum. I feel like if scum Snike felt this was usable reasoning, then it would be on the basis that town Snike would too (clearly he's aware of meta), so it's not really AI imo. So I think Prims jumping on it is relatively weird.

[Bluedoom]

Ok so I read the thread since I last went off and the things pinging me are mostly rapier and makaze related:

-I think of all the suspicions on Makaze, Cam's has to be the worst. A lot of words on him without a vote, I'm still waiting on him to actually come back in with a good vote, and maybe a full reads list noting interactions in the game. Barring which I think he's a fine lynch today. I guess I disagree with prims on his suspicion of Makaze, because it honestly looks like a culture clash. I think prims' snike case was good but makaze feels like a scumread off of disagreement in play. @Prims do you think this is out of range for town makaze?

- On that note my own gripes with Makaze are that he's admitting that he's trying to convince people of his reads but failing miserably. My main thing about makaze thinking of his personality is as town he'd think that he's obvious and his results will show, part of his ego will show vs scum where he knows that he needs to manipulate people and pocket them so he doesn't try to go as much against the grain and might even try to appease people, I'm p sure he tried that on me the last time we played. I haven't seen anyone engage me on this and I think this is a good talking point, because this is one thing I'm unsure about.

-I have this weird feeling about the rapier cases where...I know that they're logically sound but I also know that its the convenient time to case him. Unsure about Weapons dropping Boron for rapier, I'd have to reread that, because @WeaponsofMassConstruction would you be willing to elaborate on meta points that Boron has shown that lead you to vote rapier here instead?

But I think mulling over it more charlie's is probably the sketchy one? I think a townread of me/boron/snike lends itself to an avenue where rapier can be cased safely

[Bluedoom]

Although I'm basing this off of rapier's meta. And I think rapier making illogical arguments is within his town range, would be fine engaging in discussion about this

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

ok i think i'm completely wrong about rapier's posts lacking doubt lol, that's what i get for trying to do everything from memory

 

[Bluedoom]

I really want to vote snike here but I can conceive a world where he goes down the tunnel and confirmation bias as town so that gives me a pause.

Refa hasn't posted since I went off last but I'm willing to elaborate a read on him after his response to j00 and BT's votes, but for now I don't feel different about him and agree with j00 and BT's votes.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

ok i have no idea where that sentiment came from then im sorry, im very much reconsidering my rapier read now then

[Prims]

@BBM Makaze's PBPA is... mixed, I guess? The characterization of you as waffling and not stating actual reads is inaccurate IMO, I'm not sure if it's the result of playstyle clash causing us to interpret posts differently. I can understand the point of view about you treating Makaze's alignment as a foregone conclusion while voting me but I don't actually agree with it, I don't think Makaze's alignment would have been crucial to your read on me there, hence it not being brought up.

I guess the back-and-forth with Makaze made me feel a bit better about him, but there is still a submissiveness to his posts that I can't shake off as feeling unnatural. Marth cut me explaining a similar issue, I think. @Bluedoom I don't think the obtrusiveness is out of range for town!Makaze but I think town!Makaze handles things more pro-actively in terms of figuring out what he thinks town is supposed to do.

I'm increasingly worried about Refa as I realize their vote has been parked all game on somebody I think is town and I can't remember much of anything else they've done, despite my initial read on them being town. Not sure if this is the result of them being busy or what. I'm feeling tired and haven't really made a comprehensive case in my head but I would be willing to vote them.

@Snike j00 has read tonally town to me, mostly in her handling of Makaze seeming like a genuine evolving response to a weird player. If there's a case to be made on her I'll consider it but looking in her direction isn't a conclusion I'd come to naturally. I need another post from Cam to figure out where I land on him, I think. I can't tell if the lack of vote is stalling or lack of confidence or just being inebriated/behind while posting or what.

Weapons keeps mischaracterizing my vote on Snike which is weird. The crux of it wasn't just "Snike voted Bluedoom" but "I thought that Snike's suspicions on you and me looked stronger and he was going for the easier target for reasons I don't understand". Comparing Snike to other people who made catch-up posts around the same time doesn't make sense to me because... I didn't vote Snike for making a catch-up post?

Feels like I'm waiting on a bunch of people (Percy, Refa, Elie, maybe more from Rapier, votes from Cam and Marth). I don't really want to lynch Snike anymore but if he turns out to be scum later I will still take credit for catching him D1 for the sake of my ego.
I read Rapier's ISO and nothing stuck out to me as scummy. At worst his tone can be read as stilted and potentially over-explaining when voting Makaze early on, but I do think this is believable as coming from an enthusiastic townie with a specific personality. I do want to hear updated thoughts from him though.
I have been really lazy about reading SB for whatever reason.

[Bluedoom]

6 minutes ago, Prims said:

 

I guess the back-and-forth with Makaze made me feel a bit better about him, but there is still a submissiveness to his posts that I can't shake off as feeling unnatural. Marth cut me explaining a similar issue, I think. @Bluedoom I don't think the obtrusiveness is out of range for town!Makaze but I think town!Makaze handles things more pro-actively in terms of figuring out what he thinks town is supposed to do.

 

Can you quote posts that show him being submissive? Because that's concerning and a tell imo.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

hmm well ok guess I'll share some more thoughts about other players cause fuck it:

- Elie I feel like had the weakest thread entry. Yeah more posts though before worth wagoning

- Cam's few posts I really liked, the not voting thing is interesting, but not enough to shift it away from the strength of the rest of his posts imo

- j00 I'm pretty null on, feel like she's making good points but I'm not picking up on alignment pings either way

- SB I think is good, I remember their first post pinged me as off tonally but iirc I've agreed with what they've been about since

cut by prims:

well no you didn't vote him for making a catch up post but there were others around then that you didn't address. actually fair though that was more your point, alright well i'm sitting here struggling to explain why but i felt the case was a bit artificial and that's why it pinged me. can you see why i would think that?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

is everyone lurking trying to figure out wtf i am doing

i would like help as well

[Prims]

11 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

Can you quote posts that show him being submissive? Because that's concerning and a tell imo.

I hate using quotes now, but what stuck out to me to solidify this impression was that he is ambivalent about me in a way where he doesn't want a repeat of arguments from past games, because from my point of view my interactions with him in this game haven't been the same as in previous games? For one I wasn't really suspicious of him until he said that me not starting conflict with him was tilting, which was oddly self-conscious on his part. Like, there is this weird push-and-pull where he acts conflict avoidant with people then is pinged when they don't start conflict with him (I've pointed out him doing this with BBM and Snike in my past posts). Also even though I'm in his PoE, his responses to me seem more focused on shaking me off.
My read on this leans toward self-conscious scum, but I'm not sure if something happened to change his personality in the last however many years. I do admit it is difficult to tell where "Makaze the human being" and "Makaze the player with an alignment" begins and ends wrt responding to attacks on his play.

[Prims]

A way to put it is that when he's dialoguing with people in his PoE who are going after him he responds as if their intentions are pure and he needs to appease them. I would expect town to be more guarded in that situation?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

43 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

-I have this weird feeling about the rapier cases where...I know that they're logically sound but I also know that its the convenient time to case him. Unsure about Weapons dropping Boron for rapier, I'd have to reread that, because @WeaponsofMassConstruction would you be willing to elaborate on meta points that Boron has shown that lead you to vote rapier here instead?

oh yeah, you mean why am I less suspicious of Boron? Really mostly because she's been more active and I think has resumed how she was playing ED1. I'm trying to reevaluate my read on Rapier, I am wary now that I might just be paranoid, mainly cause of the PB game. Probably gonna have to iso atp but I don't wanna :(. Why do we feel the way we feel

[Prims]

3 minutes ago, Prims said:

Like, there is this weird push-and-pull where he acts conflict avoidant with people then is pinged when they don't start conflict with him (I've pointed out him doing this with BBM and Snike in my past posts)

Though I worded this poorly because it generally happens in the opposite order.

[Bluedoom]

I think I wanna go with this though: ##Vote: @charlie_

 

So where my head's at, I think if you are mafia you are in a good position to case rapier here. I can agree that Rapier criticising Shinori's rebuttal of you and then saying that the content changed his view of Shinori isn't logically consistent, but I don't think its very alignment indicative either. My main thing about your rapier vote is that in the second quote Rapier admits that he didn't read the back and forth between you and Shinori very well, which means its conceivable that upon reread he changed his mind, I don't think the change is that suspicious. If anything the second quote admits that whatever was in the first quote was wrong, but I don't find the switch to be far fetched here. That said, talk to me more about about your Rapier read, because I'm less interested in the logical inconsistencies that he's making and more interested in what scum-motivated actions that he's taking.

[Bluedoom]

oh shit, cut by prims and weapons, I'll check it out

[Sunwoo]

7 minutes ago, Prims said:

I hate using quotes now, but what stuck out to me to solidify this impression was that he is ambivalent about me in a way where he doesn't want a repeat of arguments from past games, because from my point of view my interactions with him in this game haven't been the same as in previous games? For one I wasn't really suspicious of him until he said that me not starting conflict with him was tilting, which was oddly self-conscious on his part. Like, there is this weird push-and-pull where he acts conflict avoidant with people then is pinged when they don't start conflict with him (I've pointed out him doing this with BBM and Snike in my past posts). Also even though I'm in his PoE, his responses to me seem more focused on shaking me off.
My read on this leans toward self-conscious scum, but I'm not sure if something happened to change his personality in the last however many years. I do admit it is difficult to tell where "Makaze the human being" and "Makaze the player with an alignment" begins and ends wrt responding to attacks on his play.

I would like to add that on page 10, he said he was willing to table his BBM suspicions "for now" when I told him that I felt he was tunneling and I didn't think the basis of his BBM vote was good. Not sure if you'd consider it "submissive", but it still rubs me the wrong way that his immediate reaction was to drop the topic after a single post callout.

[Prims]

If there's a specific weird thing from SB I can pinpoint it's that I can't follow the progression of their Shinori read, if it changed from their back-and-forth with him, then why they removed him from their list and moved to Rapier. I think there is the possibility of scum not wanting to look like their content ran dry, but there is also the indication their read on Shinori just changed and they never explained it? (to my knowledge) Also odd that I never saw them dropping Shinori addressed when Rapier's thoughts on Shinori are the crux of their Rapier vote.

Been thinking about mafia too much so I'll try to cut it here for the night.

[Bluedoom]

17 minutes ago, Prims said:

I hate using quotes now, but what stuck out to me to solidify this impression was that he is ambivalent about me in a way where he doesn't want a repeat of arguments from past games, because from my point of view my interactions with him in this game haven't been the same as in previous games? For one I wasn't really suspicious of him until he said that me not starting conflict with him was tilting, which was oddly self-conscious on his part. Like, there is this weird push-and-pull where he acts conflict avoidant with people then is pinged when they don't start conflict with him (I've pointed out him doing this with BBM and Snike in my past posts). Also even though I'm in his PoE, his responses to me seem more focused on shaking me off.
My read on this leans toward self-conscious scum, but I'm not sure if something happened to change his personality in the last however many years. I do admit it is difficult to tell where "Makaze the human being" and "Makaze the player with an alignment" begins and ends wrt responding to attacks on his play.

I think what's bugging me in the first post is that he's saying that you're in the list of people he's confident eliminating, then he says that he's not confident in reading you, and then says you're useful in the lategame if town. Then...why are you in the list of people he's comfortable eliminating?

That's a very weird logical inconsistency that I wouldn't expect from him. Fuck, this is a pretty good lead too actually.

[Percivalé]

hi everybody I'm home, sorry again for being absent this game unfortunately started at an inconvenient time for me, not that that's anybody's fault but I know it's frustrating when there are players who aren't posting. I'm really tired but if I don't sit down and read tonight I'm gonna have no time tomorrow and then D1 is over so uh give me some time I'll go through the thread... I have been lurking a lot in case there was anything I needed to address directly but I haven't read a lot of anything since last night lol. I'm here now though. I'm very behind so bear with me. hi everybody btw 

[Makaze]

  The more I express my thought process, the more confused everyone gets

two of my places in the PoE were in movement while I making that list that I posted, and I explained why I was moving them while I was writing. Prims was at the bottom and still not able to be moved out of my PoE, and Weapons was being moved back in because of how flimsy Rapier case and how weasely they were being

15 minutes ago, Prims said:

I hate using quotes now, but what stuck out to me to solidify this impression was that he is ambivalent about me in a way where he doesn't want a repeat of arguments from past games, because from my point of view my interactions with him in this game haven't been the same as in previous games? For one I wasn't really suspicious of him until he said that me not starting conflict with him was tilting, which was oddly self-conscious on his part. Like, there is this weird push-and-pull where he acts conflict avoidant with people then is pinged when they don't start conflict with him (I've pointed out him doing this with BBM and Snike in my past posts). Also even though I'm in his PoE, his responses to me seem more focused on shaking me off.
My read on this leans toward self-conscious scum, but I'm not sure if something happened to change his personality in the last however many years. I do admit it is difficult to tell where "Makaze the human being" and "Makaze the player with an alignment" begins and ends wrt responding to attacks on his play.

I am not sure how to read you, but the way you've been attacking me feels like in past games, and you have been in every one of those games iirc, that's what I was saying

You are spot on with that analysis, but I don't think there's anything wrong with relating to people better when they are scum reading me

[Refa]

  

11 hours ago, charlie_ said:

(Refa):

Basically, whiplash from how fast it came. Nothing else Marth has posted has really bothered me though so I'm not reading into it too much, and idt your alignment or Boron's plays into it because of how early in the game it was. Even if Marth was maf there he wouldn't really care much since ED1 is kind of an afterthought for most people beyond the first 24 hours or so.

@charlie_ Is whiplash scummy though? I can buy it coming from scum, but I don't think it's alignment indicative.

@Makaze I like your new BBM read. I don't have a strong read on the slot, but it definitely did read as him waffling early on. I'm not really bothered by him not engaging with you though after his response. After that, it reads to me as you tunneling into him for the sake of it? You're framing all of his actions as scummy when uh I do not think that's the case; it doesn't read as a natural reaction. But let's say you're right here, it also bothers me that you're only pursuing BBM over choosing to pursue your other reads in your PoE.

@CT075 Sure, you forgetting to vote Makaze is fine. But you kind of did it again with Snike in your comeback post (I know you later said you weren't confident enough to vote him)? I liked your thought progression overall, but I think it's your approach that's bothering me. If Boron/Snike are who bother you the most, why aren't you voting either of them?

@Rapier In addition to your Shinori stance being kind of wack (I don't get why their stance on Shinori changed, I get that you didn't read the back & forth but also like...how could you make a read in that case), I haven't really liked your responses to me. It reads like you're refusing to engage with me, which is weird because he mentioned being bothered by me earlier. In your latest posts, it seems like your main push is Weapons? But I'm not really vibing with it

@BT. I felt strongly about Boron...I've already stated my opinion on 2 members of the Makaze wagon previously, and I'm not really bothered by those two people. So I don't think them giving up on Makaze is really alignment indicative, but it's kind of lazy to just give such a contentious slot a pass. I don't think you're reading my Boron unvote (well, I didn't really unvote but I implied I was planning on switching when I got back) in good faith. Why would I need to give up as scum? If anything, it makes me look worse because it was my strongest read (as you've pointed out before, I don't have a lot of strong reads which is fair).

@BBM I don't think Boron/Marth are scumbuddies. Therefore, I didn't really see the scum benefit in Boron changing from me to an entirely new wagon instead of going for one of the preexisting wagons. As scum, it makes more sense to me that if she felt her push on me wasn't working, she'd switch off to one of those. It's not really enough for a town read but she's back to null instead of being scummy. EDIT Probably a townlean now, I liked her reads in her last post. I also uh don't get your Via townread but admittedly I have never played with Scum!Via. For me, Via's been fine so far but I need more from that slot. WRT your Snike read, I get where you're coming from but I'm not really reading scum intent from these actions. Why is this coming from Scum!Snike? What about Weapons' other content are you not vibing with?

@Snike Oh sorry, I thought you did scumread Makaze. That Shinori post did mean I felt worse about him than a pure random at the time (BBM), but it wasn't something I felt bad enough to push. What's bothering you about j00? I've thought her progression of reads has been fine enough but don't really have a strong opinion on the slot.

@j00 First post was just a quick update because I got blindsided with the Boron post (and implying my read on her changed), second one kind of fair? The Makaze comment was more me prodding at you guys to read the slot, because associative reads will be a bitch if half of the playerbase is like this. Otherwise, it's just me trying to get into SB's head on Elie, because hmmm...I didn't really like Elie's first post, but I'm not getting where people are seeing scum intent in that.

Kinda felt middling on Weapons until his recent post, I like his BBM response and his Rapier vote so he's leaning town for me. One weird thing is I don't get the Boron read progression. People didn't get why I unvoted Boron but @WeaponsofMassConstruction your reasoning doesn't really uh...exist. What about Boron made you feel better? Curious about your Prims suspicion. I was pretty middling on him until his most recent post, but I kind of vibed with a lot of that so I'm unsure what's bothering you. Well, I get why you were bothered by his Snike case, but is anything else pinging you? You mentioned Snike/Cam/SB being weird reads coming from him because he played similarly, but I don't think Cam/SB were his top reads and Snike has played pretty differently from Prims.

@Prims Agreed about Makaze. Fine with your Snike progression, I don't get why Weapons looks worse to you. The Boron thing bothered me but overall his last post made me read him as more townie. I feel scattershot because my main scumreads (Boron and Marth) at the time I'm not really feeling anymore. Here are my reads.

Town

Bluedoom- I'm fine with the slot. I think what's making me feel better is that I don't agree with the wagon over his actual actions of late, but I imagine I'll get a few more posts out of him soon to improve my read on him there. I also am scumreading two of the people on his wagon.

Boron- Besides the vote swap, I think I vibed with her recent reads posts more than previous ones and it felt like she was more actively pushing which was what I initially took issue with (or rather, the lack of doing that).

Snike- I've just generally vibed with his content and I think you and BBM have had perfectly cromulent arguments against him but I'm not really buying it from his end. I think as scum being belligerent or him just tunneling an easy read (more BBM's case than yours), it'd come across differently. What did you mean by "Question: What do people think about the 1-2 of Rapier's RVS triple?"

Weapons- I thought his last post was neat. Probably the town read I have the least to go off of, but I'll have a better handle on him with more posts.

Null

BBM- I agree w/Makaze that he waffled earlier on and didn't really commit which reads bad. His later content I've been fine with (in particular, I like the thought progression behind his Weapons and Rapier reads), but it's too Makaze focused ATM for me to get a better handle on him. 

Shinori- I think I'm leaning town on his tone, but it's hard to get a read on his play and my read at least would benefit from him looking at other people who aren't casing him. Imma be honest, I don't really get his SB case or why he finds SB scummy rather than disagreeable.

Elieson- I get people feeling bad about him but I really have nothing to go off here and don't feel comfortable moving him down until I do.

Scum

CT075- I think Cam would be further down the list for avoiding pushing his reads but I can get where his thought process is coming from so I'm not as bothered by that as I would be otherwise

Rapier- I've progressively feeling worse about Rapier the more time has gone on, and in the past 24 hours it feels like he's been there but not actually contributing.

Makaze- I honestly thought his new BBM case was good but I really don't like the followups and him only engaging with BBM despite having many other reads. I wrote more above.

##Unvote

##Vote: @Makaze

[Refa]

@Snike Uh, this was directed at you. What did you mean by "Question: What do people think about the 1-2 of Rapier's RVS triple?"

[Refa]

Oh, I forgot to finish my Rapier thought process but after I'm not really vibing it, it was supposed to say "The problem with this is that this is Rapier's only real push of late, and otherwise he is not really contributing".