(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Percivalé]

I'm up and I have to go out like Now so no time to read the thread yet but wanted to answer the ping from @Refa , I was stream of consciousness-ing as I read the thread so just giving off my observations as they came to me. I don't like leaving giant posts without a vote and weapons was feeling like a vote I should make only once I got the entire context of the thread. my statement that he'd be an easy early scum vote was made as like a, if my assumption is wrong and he is town I'm gonna keep that in mind for later because a couple people switched to voting for him in succession p fast and it gave me Vibes.  hope that makes sense

[charlie_]

Ftr I was thinking while I was catching up that it was weird how basically nobody had Makaze as town but only one person voted for them but I guess that's out of the window now. 

I will say I'm not super sure on why Boron is shifting off of Refa now when their read sorta seems the same. Can you explain why Makaze is higher priority for you now because it feels like a bit of a toss-up.

Makaze, are you caught up? If so I would like to hear what your latest BBM thoughts are, and also do you have any opinion on the rest of Snike's content? (Particularly the post where you think he could've tried to pocket you, which without looking I am guessing was the spoilered wallpost?)

[Refa]

I can’t speak for anyone else bothered by him but I’m interested where Makaze’s posts go from here, so he’d be my lowest priority read. A lot of the Makaze scumreads seem to be “I don’t like Makaze’s posts but I never read him well so I’m not going to start trying now” which is kind of defeatist? Don’t like that thought process (I think I saw this from BBM, j00, and Snike).

That’s fair Via (uh lemme know ifI should call you something else). It initially read like a weird contradiction but I’m fine with it now.

@charlie_ What are your thoughts on Elie? I don’t think I got any reads off of his one post myself. TBH, my reads list didn’t really have any new thoughts, I just summarized things for myself/other people. 

[charlie_]

5 minutes ago, Refa said:

@charlie_ What are your thoughts on Elie? I don’t think I got any reads off of his one post myself. TBH, my reads list didn’t really have any new thoughts, I just summarized things for myself/other people. 

Kind of scummy. The Makaze read in a vacuum is alright but the lack of any original reasoning is rough and the way they brought up their BBM scumread is confusing.

Voting for one post though on Page 14 doesn’t feel like it’s it.

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

Ftr I was thinking while I was catching up that it was weird how basically nobody had Makaze as town but only one person voted for them but I guess that's out of the window now. 

I will say I'm not super sure on why Boron is shifting off of Refa now when their read sorta seems the same. Can you explain why Makaze is higher priority for you now because it feels like a bit of a toss-up.

Makaze, are you caught up? If so I would like to hear what your latest BBM thoughts are, and also do you have any opinion on the rest of Snike's content? (Particularly the post where you think he could've tried to pocket you, which without looking I am guessing was the spoilered wallpost?)

I am not able to read anything but scum from BBM, but I am still not able to articulate why, and I feel like any case that I make will be tuned out in the noise and written off as tunneling.

A brief summary, I'll just post his entire ISO, and explain what I'm seeing (or not seeing).

GDI I hate this website

Can't multiquote if my life depeneded on it

BBM opened with a nonsense vote, innocent enough.
Followed with asking why I think he's scum. I replied, he didn't.
Next action was a vote on Prims for how they pushed me for my SK hunting. They didn't comment on whether my SK hunting was weird directly. The way they've treated me alignment as unimportant or a given was pinging from post 1. More of that here.
Next he's fine with my posting random alignment claims. Noncommittal on Shinori.
After Prims vote is "fine ig", switches to Snike. In the middle of the Snike post, where he votes for Snike, it's actually just a defense of Marth. All the while, BBM has not talked to or interacted directly with Marth. Associative pings.
On the Snike vote, it feels toothless. No talking to Snike, unlike me and Prims. Are these pressure votes? Is there any actual pressure before he recants it? What is "fine"? How real was this interaction?
Otherwise, a lot of the complaints leveled at me also apply to BBM, and while it seems dumb to say that it's only okay when I do it, I'm feeling like BBM is saying he doesn't like certain posts instead of stating his actual reads of the players.

Overall, he's waffling hard.

@BBM Who did you mean by "on the marth wagon", and which votes do you find the most suspect?

 

18 hours ago, BBM said:

##vote: @Makaze for having a bad vote script that put rapier as voting undefined

  

18 hours ago, BBM said:

Why do you think I'm scum makaze?

 

15 hours ago, BBM said:

i went to watch like two episodes of tv and you guys put up 5 pages of posts... sf mafia is BACK

##Unvote, ##Vote: @Prims

this is what I feel most strongly about atm. we're all rusty blah blah blah but I just don't feel like Prims was trying to make anything happen. If Prims found makaze randomly bringing up SK a bit weird, I would expect Prims to try and push him a bit more about it just to try get more of a reaction, even if he didn't actually find makaze's actions that scummy. instead, Prims chose to just restate an RVS reason for voting Shinori multiple times. feels lazy to me and like he was posting for the sake of it

I'm not gonna lie a lot of the other posts in the interim just blended together other than makaze voting me so I'll reread them to try and pick some more opinions out. my first thought is that a slightly smaller game might have been better to ease back into things lmao

@Makaze your list of people who aren't aligned, does that include that those people aren't town/town, or are you specifically looking for whether or not they're scum/scum?

 

14 hours ago, BBM said:

that's fair i did not pay attention to a single second of champs 😌 but lol for all of prims's posts about shinori being scum with refuge in audacity it seems he's the one doing it... i don't really think this is leading anywhere fruitful for now though since prims seems committed to waiting for other people before posting anymore content, so i'm going to sleep and try to figure out makaze's iso script tomorrow once other people have posted more.

with makaze i think im fine with him posting the random alignment declarations off random one liners. not that reads can't change but if he's scum it'll be hard to keep that up for more than a day or two

 

7 hours ago, BBM said:

Can we please stop doing this thing where if someone leaves the thread for a few hours people start getting mad about it? This is specifically directed at Boron for being snippy that people voted her and left, but people were doing that about me earlier too. I know it's frustrating to not get to defend yourself or pursue your scumread more right away,  but we all have more stuff to do now than 5 years ago. So this is a warning that I won't be back after this for a few hours

Prims' post is fine I guess. I feel like we've had this argument before about how easy/hard it is for scum to change their minds later but idk I think it's hard to do in a way that seems natural so I don't agree with that part of it. I do agree about the part about it being weird that Makaze finds it scummier that we don't scumread him back though. I'm just not quite feeling Makaze yet though.

However @Makaze we're literally like 12 hours into the game. Why did you see it necessary to vote Marth to "consolidate"? I get the part about not wanting to vote me for now, but after all your posts to that point, voting Marth there sucked. Consolidating on pure RVS wagons is one thing but I think once wagons become real, doing it for the sake of it sucks. Not all townies are cool under pressure and just piling on votes is more likely to lead to confirmation bias where they start acting more erratic under the pressure and then you feel more confident about it

Snike vote is good. I really don't understand why people find Marth to be scummy. I'm not town reading him or anything but it's just whatever to me. Out of all the Marth votes, Snike's is by far the worst. In addition to what Prims said about Snike picking the easiest target, yes making a full reads post this early is useless, but Marth was hardly the only one doing it. Almost everyone in the thread at that point was giving a bunch of "leaning X" posts off small vibes. Also he's scummier for not being waffly and for trying to solve the game? How does that make any sense?

##Unvote, ##vote: @Snike

 

 

 

7 hours ago, BBM said:

Some other quick stray thoughts: 

I didn't say this explicitly earlier but the thing that pinged me most early other than Prims was weapons, because I felt his initial reason for voting prims was good and then he backed off it super fast. It gave me vibes of scum distancing themselves early without actually committing to a push. That being said prims has allayed my suspicions, so I don't know if this is alignment indicative if prims is town. Still haven't cared much for his posts though. I would have liked to see him come back to respond to my question before I dropped the prims vote, alas

Didn't like Cam's first post. Felt like a lot of commentary without opinions and no vote. He was drunk so I'll give him a pass for now though I'm not sure if he's legal age to drink...

 

3 hours ago, BBM said:

I do find him kind of suspicious but if I'm being honest I'm giving myself a higher bar for voting Makaze because I don't agree with his style at all and also I want to be sure before getting into a Thunderdome TM. like j00 said I think it will become easier to suss him out with more flipped interactions. I find his marth vote quite bad though because if he just deathtunnelled me on vibes at least I'd respect it a bit more. voting player B cuz they fit with player A being scum when player A hasn't even flipped yet sucks

I tried reading Marth again and still not seeing it. I then read the votes of all the people who were voting him, and I actually find Rapier's kind of bad. his original vote there was fine, but after that I feel like he's been parking it there and hasn't actually posted much about him since then. also reading some of his other stuff more closely, he put out a list post that on everyone in the thread to that point and basically called everyone scum or leaning scum outside of two people who he wanted to be more active. I know I said I liked Rapier earlier but I think I was being too easy cuz I'm used to him flaking and felt that as scum he would be more lurky as opposed to tryhard, but i don't feel that town would be finding so much stuff about everyone

I'll wait for snike to post more but the stuff he chose to cover so far doesn't impress me.

 

2 hours ago, BBM said:

@Rapier i think this is the post I really took issue with where more than half the players were scum/leaning scum/sliding towards scum.

idk tho in hindsight I feel like in my endeavour to find scum on the Marth wagon I've basically found everyone on it scummy, which is equally unlikely

[Sunwoo]

Not actually back, sorry.

Slight negative gutread on SB. It's minor and not something I'm interested in pursuing now, but I think it's because of the amount of times they say someone (or something) is "iffy" or "weird" or "confusing". Like, it feels like they're noting that something bothers them but avoiding a more definite stance so they can go either way based on the thread's general opinion. I guess I just feel slightly worse about them than I feel good about them.

26 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

I will say I'm not super sure on why Boron is shifting off of Refa now when their read sorta seems the same. Can you explain why Makaze is higher priority for you now because it feels like a bit of a toss-up.

In response to this though, it's because I felt that Makaze's faux-contributions just seem worse than what Refa is doing. Like, Makaze just has a higher content-to-noise ratio and gives a stronger illusion of actually contributing, which I thought was a bit worse.

Elie has basically one content post. It seems kinda rushed and feels a bit weak as a result. I'd like them to explain why they feel BBM is scum that's not just vibes. I don't disagree with their case on Makaze though. That said, Elie do you feel that Makaze and BBM interactions are coming from scum/scum or could be scum/town? I'd also just like to hear more from you in general. Overall, I'm not feeling terrible about Elie but I also feel like I don't have enough to work with either. Hope he reads pages 10/11 and comes back with updated thoughts.

1 hour ago, Bluedoom said:

-I'm frustrated with Boron because it feels like I'm just being told that everything I said is bad when its like. Dude. Even if I'm wrong about you think from the other side lol. Doubling down and saying that everything I said sucked all along isn't conducive to discussion if that is your intention.

Do you not see how this could apply to you regarding me though? That this is how I think you're acting towards me? This applies to you just as much.

Don't really feel like analyzing Rapier's more recent stuff yet, will get to that later.

[charlie_]

I do agree that BBM’s Snike suspicion feels less… something than the Prims one. It’s a bit blander ig, but reads fine in context. Def interested now in where his Snike read is.

Hm.

[CT075]

So I went to bed thinking that I voted Makaze and woke up to discover that I hadn’t, but I agree with Rapier that we’re probably not getting much else out of that line of inquiry. I will say that I find it very frustrating to read because it takes up so much space and, like, what am I supposed to do with any of these posts? Without reasoning it’s kind of just sitting there, and while I have upgraded my opinion from “there is a universe where this is just useless town posting” to “actually, this is actively easy to fake”, we have bigger fish to fry. Also, I’m willing to take j00 at their word that Makaze is just like this and that I’m not going to understand even if I did keep pushing.

I don’t think I understand the cases on Refa. I agree that they’ve been doing a bit of noncommittal questioning, but, like, it’s not even halfway through day 1, are we supposed to have strong reads at that point? Via has a, quote, early vibecheck? Boron seems to think that Refa is forgettable, which, like fine comma I guess? I’m not sure how to read “forgettable” justifications in general; without specific highlights of someone making a lot of no-substance posts it just feels really easy to say “yeah X has been posting a lot and I can’t remember what they actually said”. An earlier draft of this post had a vote for Boron here, but her most recent post goes into more detail about Makaze’s lack of substance (although I guess it’s also possible I’m more okay with it because I agree with her? idk) and I think it would have been pretty easy to just leave the vote on Refa as scum even with a bit of a building wagon.

I have flipped my opinion on Shinori like four times while typing this up, so instead of saying something committal I am just going to give the following commentary:

• Chainsaw defense? I can understand if you independely think that charlie and Prims are scum, but do you believe that charlie’s intent here is entirely to take heat off Prims? If anything, I think immediately jumjping to “wait, actually, they’re aligned together, this has to be chainsaw!” kind of, like, presupposes that charlie is also scum and it’s really not clear to me what charlie has done to warrant this? Do you know something about these two players’ alignment that I don’t?
• For what it’s worth, I actually think that the rest of the post is town-coded. The breakdown of why they think charlie’s actual post is weak goes into a reasonable amount of detail (especially on the I’m-not-defensive part) and I feel that it would have been easy to just blow it off instead of posting a screen’s worth of text and drawing even more attention to themselves.

Prims’ Snike vote is very persuasive to me. I did not initially read Snike in this way, but I can see the scum intent when Prims says it out loud.

(written later, you guys add another page to the thread every time I look up from my text editor)

I am severely spooked by Makaze saying that they write off all scumread actions and focus on convincing everyone else after I am not going to try and make up a case, like, my direct complaint is that you aren’t (FMPOV) actually trying to convince anyone of anything, beyond just quintupling down on your tunnels! I considered making good on that Makaze vote after all, but the recent BBM justification is actually kinda good and I’ll have to think about it much more deeply before I can decide whether I think this is scum bullshitting a reason after getting a ton of flak for no reason or an actual attempt at making the town vote for the bad guy, but I’m tentatively willing to take it at face value at the moment.

I would say that I am “caught up” in that I have had every post in the thread pass in front of my eyes, but I would definitely not say that I have been able to process it all; there are almost certainly posts and events that I expect to have opinions about that I just forgot about while writing this.

I am also going to say that I’m not ignoring the Bluedoom wagon, and I want to talk about it, but I have to go and don’t have time to process it all atm.

[CT075]

oh yeah people wanted reads, uhh I'm like hard null reading a lot of people but gun to my head I think I am most suspicious of Boron and Snike (admittedly the Snike thoughts are mostly just because I think I agree with Prims' early statements, this is not nearly as well-thought out)? Not confident enough to vote when I haven't actually had time to digest what's been going on

[CT075]

I think Rapier is probably town, Shinori was kind of dancing a jig in the middle of everyone in a way that I think would be counterproductive as scum, need to think long and hard about Makaze's BBM case and how it influences my Makaze opinion in general

[charlie_]

5 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Slight negative gutread on SB. It's minor and not something I'm interested in pursuing now, but I think it's because of the amount of times they say someone (or something) is "iffy" or "weird" or "confusing". Like, it feels like they're noting that something bothers them but avoiding a more definite stance so they can go either way based on the thread's general opinion. I guess I just feel slightly worse about them than I feel good about them.

For future reference you should probably take “iffy” as synonymous with “kind of scummy” in my posts ftr. It’s just a phrasing thing.

[CT075]

serenes forest why is my font double sized

[j00]

what does "pocketing" mean

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, CT075 said:

serenes forest why is my font double sized

i was having the same question

 

---

Comfortable putting these people as town:

CT075 (Pure tone reads and internal dialogue that makes sense to me)
Boron (Still have no reason to question it, except for one thing: Casual shielding and lack of commitment, gets in the middle of questioning other people like when they said Rapier was likely to forge things)
Rapier (Believable reasoning, some tonal issues but that seems like a Rapier thing)
Weapons (At least one post that felt hard to fake to me)
Percivale (I can't remember exactly why at the moment)

Null but feels pretty good about:
j00

Not convinced about, but have reasons to avoid eliminating:
Refa
Shinori
BT.
Snike

People squarely in the PoE:
BBM
Bluedoom
Elieson
Prims

I'm forgetting like half of the people unless I happened to remember anyone, they are in the PoE by default

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, j00 said:

what does "pocketing" mean

doing something with the express intention of being townread by a specific person, e.g. by having a TMI but well reasoned townread of someone who is in the PoE

[j00]

So "buddying"?

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

i was having the same question

 

---

Comfortable putting these people as town:

CT075 (Pure tone reads and internal dialogue that makes sense to me)
Boron (Still have no reason to question it, except for one thing: Casual shielding and lack of commitment, gets in the middle of questioning other people like when they said Rapier was likely to forge things)
Rapier (Believable reasoning, some tonal issues but that seems like a Rapier thing)
Weapons (At least one post that felt hard to fake to me)
Percivale (I can't remember exactly why at the moment)

Null but feels pretty good about:
j00

Not convinced about, but have reasons to avoid eliminating:
Refa
Shinori
BT.
Snike

People squarely in the PoE:
BBM
Bluedoom
Elieson
Prims

I'm forgetting like half of the people unless I happened to remember anyone, they are in the PoE by default

forget* things, not forge things

[BBM]

snike, do you actually still find marth scummy for things he's done after your first vote for him? best I can tell your reason to vote for him is still about his initial listpost. it felt like everything you wrote about stuff that happened between your posts was either continuing the same point of discussion or responding to votes. just overall i don't like what snike has been prioritizing in terms of his time to post

weapons is probably scum. i think he's trying to imitate his own meta of floating around asking questions, but the questions are too narrow and about just general gameplay theory ("how do you think your meta has evolved since you last played", "what would you be doing differently as scum"), he hasn't committed to anything, and there's not enough questions to be meaningful.

i'm trying to separate out my makaze stuff from everything else because it slows down me getting stuff out about other stuff

[Makaze]

Just now, j00 said:

So "buddying"?

pocketing could also mean agreeing with someone else's reads and refers specifically to mafia trying to get townread by a specific town player, while buddying sounds more to me like scum/scum townreading

[Makaze]

Playing things closer to my chest feels like the play here.

@charlie_ Can you give a quick list of your PoE?

[BBM]

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

I don't have any solid reasoning for BBM, but I do have a gut feeling, and it is actually based on their first post. They still do not seem to be making any moves and are holding off judgment for later, which while objectively NAI, I would expect some kind of read of how I reacted to their RVS and how I have been tunneling them to have formed. I'm currently reading their distancing from me as recognizing that I cannot be pocketed easily and refusing to engage with an impossible situation, which makes sense as a preservation strategy, but it doesn't explain why they can't form a read on me on top of it.

you're essentially correct that I'm refusing to engage with an impossible situation but your conclusion is wrong. until the most recent posts, there was so little you had for me to respond to that I felt like if you were town, the best way for me to actually convince you of anything was to just play my game. your first reason for finding me scum was "vibes but they might change if you solve the game", so uh I tried solving the game. i was hardly the only person to avoid engaging with you or committing to a read on you because there was nothing to say except "that's wack". am I supposed to have more of a read on you because your vibes are wrong? townies are wrong all the time. i was kind of leaning scum on you. i just didn't feel confident enough in it because of your playstyle to get into the situation of spending half my time just on you, but I guess at this point it's going to happen anyways! i will say that seeing your process and also seeing you commit to interacting more with people made me feel significantly better about you so I'm back to a more neutral level. again I really do feel like it will be easier to read you as the game goes on and you have to evolve your reads so I'm not that fussed about it.

i could probably be doing a better job asking questions but the difference between me and you (prior to this post) is I was actually giving reasons for my vibes instead of just stating them for my own benefit. also, if i list stuff i dont like about someone, they're going to respond to it regardless of whether i put a ? at the end, particularly if i vote them

as for me only finding snike scummy via defending marth, that's just... wrong? if i literally vote someone for it how is it toothless? it's also straight up wrong that I never said my feelings about marth. I said at least twice that I tried reading marth and didn't agree with the reasons people gave for voting him, said i wasn't directly townreading but generally found the votes against him more objectionable than anything he did.

i define "marth wagon" as people who voted or expressed strong suspicion for marth. i dont trust any of your votals (sorry) so off the top of my head I believe that's you, rapier, snike, boron, sb (not everyone might have an active vote). i found boron and sb's votes ok though obviously i disagree. i also like the rest of sb's stuff more than other people's, and thought boron's overall tone was townie. other than those, i basically disliked all of your/rapier/snike's votes there. however after I hit send, I took a step back from considering everyone in a vacuum, and realized that it was actually pretty unlikely for 3 scum to all hop on the same wagon that early, so I wanted to disengage and think a bit more about it. i'm kind of waffling on rapier atm, unsure.

also forgot to mention with snike, it turns out I misread part of his vote, but then his initial reason for voting marth is even slimmer. it's really just "oh listread post bad" and nothing else. That's so basic and Snike is still on that.

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, BBM said:

 could probably be doing a better job asking questions but the difference between me and you (prior to this post) is I was actually giving reasons for my vibes instead of just stating them for my own benefit. also, if i list stuff i dont like about someone, they're going to respond to it regardless of whether i put a ? at the end, particularly if i vote them

>looks at how people have treated me
I don't think this is the case

[BBM]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

>looks at how people have treated me
I don't think this is the case

well as soon as you gave reasons for finding me suspicious I responded to them. you said something earlier like "i stop challenging my scumreads and focus on just convincing other people" but it didn't even feel earlier like you were trying to do the latter. if anything you explicitly said you weren't trying to do the latter.

[charlie_]

Tbh I was planning on switching onto Makaze earlier today once they were around to pressure, but their recent posting has been kind of good.

##Vote: @Rapier

Their recent posting around Shinori feels pretty inconsistent. The criticism of Shinori for being defensive vs me and then admitting to have not really read the contents of that post isn't great, and then their stance change feels very abrupt:

6 hours ago, Rapier said:

QED by this rewritting of the Bible, Shinori is still either joking around or focused entirely on defending himself versus going for targets or pressing other people for content/reads. It feels like his game is just drifting through D1, joking and defending himself when flak comes his way. That was ok-ish 12 hours ago, but now I'm honestly seeing this as scum conveniently staying under the radar despite being one of the top posters.

3 hours ago, Rapier said:

My critique was on the abundance of content that was either joking or focused around defending/justifying yourself and addressing people who accused you, versus questioning other people and pursuing reads. I'll admit your more recent content has improved and you've been participating on discussions more productively (your talk with SB, your opinions on the state of the game), which improved me read on you (as far as early D1 reads go, at least).

Shinori didn't post a ton between these two posts, so this feels like a bit of a weird development? I tried looking and couldn't find any other place where Rapier said Shinori's content had improved so this feels kinda like he's appeasing Shinori when they got pushback, because this opinion wasn't really present in their posts before. I'm also scratching my head a bit at Shinori's talk with me improving Rapier's view on him when they were criticising it? It feels like a mess.

32 minutes ago, Makaze said:

@charlie_ Can you give a quick list of your PoE?

I have 5 people I wouldn't vote and everyone else is nulltown-kinda scummy. I definitely don't have a PoE yet.

[Makaze]

Just now, BBM said:

well as soon as you gave reasons for finding me suspicious I responded to them. you said something earlier like "i stop challenging my scumreads and focus on just convincing other people" but it didn't even feel earlier like you were trying to do the latter. if anything you explicitly said you weren't trying to do the latter.

I'm not really following,

But I don't think we are going anywhere with that anyway

I'm more interested in who you find the worst on the marth wagon and who is being the most opportunistic vs starting it