The Last Promise

[deranger]

Forcing promotion is ASM, but at least Blazer knows how to do that. Anakin's promotion was forced.

I thought that only applys to eliwood's replacement.

Edited February 14, 2012 by deranger

[Nanami Touko]

I thought that only applies to eliwood's replacement.

I'm sure that it's an ASM code that he could apply to any character. I could be wrong, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I am.

[Anouleth]

Forcing promotion is ASM, but at least Blazer knows how to do that. Anakin's promotion was forced. So, if he could somehow predict people getting Shon to level ten by a certain chapter, he could force a promotion. Alas, giving them an item for Shon would prolly be better.

It would also leave open the possibility of promoting him later if he's not level 10 yet and the player wants to continue to train him, as well as be easier to hack in. That's what FE8 did, anyway.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Anouleth

[Crimson Red]

Alright, thanks for all your suggestions. The one thing I can guarantee you is that Shon will not suck completely.

@Anouleth whether you think the plot is good or not is irrelevant, since I'm mainly making the hack for my own enjoyment. I share the hack because I figure some people might like it as it is, not to ensure that fans like it and it's popular. This is much like how somehow who writes a program for their own project might share said program but that doesn't mean they should or want to make it better so other people can use it better. It may seem silly to pass up a chance to do something that will make a project more popular and in the eyes of some people better but I have never been into doing that stuff, at least not intentionally.

That being said I am not opposed to taking suggestions so if it's something good, fits, isn't hard, and is something that I might want to implement for my own benefit/enjoyment, then yeah, but I am not into working to make things purely so other people can benefit. Shon, as he is in my version of the patch (note: not the latest one which has many flaws that have been brought up so many times it sickens me, but can't be helped yet), is a fun character to play as, neither stupidly hard to use and useless, nor overpowered or a tank. He goes from below average/bad -> average early on, then average -> good on chapter 22, possibly average-> very good depending on how smart the player is, and by end-game he'll be good.

main characters should never be bad.

I hate this philosophy SOOOOOOOOOO much. You're pretty much saying "AUTOMATIC PLOT BOOST FTW" in my book. As one who enjoys writing and loves tearing apart (secretly) flawed characters and flawed plots (including my own, I've torn apart so many of my own ideas and characters you'd think I had no self-esteem) I don't think I should say anymore before I lose my cool and start swearing...

if you're trying to show him growing through the game, show it through his GROWTHS. if he suppose to be going from novice to a man, a soldier equal to everyone around him, then let him mature through gameplay AND story. think of all the people who are just like him in FE. ross who's like, 10. he matured through gameplay you saw him grow and become on par ( better in fact ) than his father garcia. ike who's was had almost no training at the start of POR. only trained occasionally with wooden swords ( sound familiar ? ) the tutorial was his first real battle. all the things had to overcome ( father dying, the war, the mad king etc. ) molded him into real soldier. why? cause he had potential. at first he was average.

[spoiler=PlotSpoilers]Shon doesn't fit into this category. By the end of the story Shon is still not very strong. He's stronger, but he's still not extremely strong. He's not like Ike or Ross who grow into huge tanks. Shon, by the end of the game, becomes stronger in mind, and somewhat stronger in body, but is not some extreme war hero. He is a "main character" but he is also a support character. He supports Siegfried, Anakin, and Kelik all game. He is never the sole leader, cannot seize, is not a commander... in other words, he doesn't fit into the cliche "start off weak and hating war and then grow strong and be able to tolerate it and follow your ideals" guy. Without having completed the finished game or me spoiling you, you can't have known that, which is why you should take into account that I'm not a complete dumbass and actually have reasons for almost every single thing I do. It's one thing to suggest but you're like, insist on making a change to the game as if though you were the director. You have a good point that he's terrible right now but you should stick to that point instead of saying things that could be considered rude and offensive to me and the plot (except I don't care enough to actually take offense... sorry). This still isn't the full story so if you could please save your suggestions for later, after I can't say "I've hidden some details" or "the game isn't finished", then that'd be great, because then I can just STFU and take suggestions without having to worry about all the details (though I still might not accept your suggestion just due to time/work/lack of want & desire), because you would have taken them all into account before making said suggestion. And that would be nice, because it's a pain to always have to defend the choices I have and will make with "secret reasoning" that probably just sounds like stubborn bullshit, and I don't like to have to ignore people because then I just seem unreasonable. :\ Hopefully we can settle it with this, at the

EDIT: I have this feeling I contradicted myself once or twice in this topic just by going on tangents. Oh well. gtg

[The Blind Archer]

I hate this philosophy SOOOOOOOOOO much. You're pretty much saying "AUTOMATIC PLOT BOOST FTW" in my book.

Now hold on a ramalama ding-dongin' second here. He didn't say overpowered, great, etc. He said "never be bad". As in "doesn't have to be a game-breaker or able to sweep entire enemies by him/herself, but should not fall under the category of dead-weight, forced to use because the plot demands it". Think Eliwood vs. Micaiah in terms of their usability. I can't numbers to save my life, so I'll use their classes and what I perceive as decent compared to the rest of the cast. Eliwood has combat function and uses both lances and swords, and even gets a horse. Not to mention he can take a few hits. Is he by any means the most OP character in FE7? No, but he's not exactly dead-weight either. Really, his only flaw as a class is that Durandal outweighs him. Micaiah, on the other hand, is made of paper, slow as molasses at the peak of winter, and pretty much shafted in combat unless you dump all of your stat boosters on her or spam Sacrifice. Which, by the way, gets put on the wayside the second she gets healing staves. She becomes a stave lord rather than a magic lord. And she's still made of paper and slower than a boulder going uphill. And that's terrible.

We're talking "able to survive" as opposed to "hope you get lucky with the growths".

Really, this whole thing leads me to believe that this...

The one thing I can guarantee you is that Shon will not suck completely.

...translates to "yeah, nah, I'm gonna stick with giving him the prf weapon and not doing anything else".

Edited February 14, 2012 by The Blind Archer

[Anouleth]

Alright, thanks for all your suggestions. The one thing I can guarantee you is that Shon will not suck completely.

@Anouleth whether you think the plot is good or not is irrelevant, since I'm mainly making the hack for my own enjoyment. I share the hack because I figure some people might like it as it is, not to ensure that fans like it and it's popular. This is much like how somehow who writes a program for their own project might share said program but that doesn't mean they should or want to make it better so other people can use it better. It may seem silly to pass up a chance to do something that will make a project more popular and in the eyes of some people better but I have never been into doing that stuff, at least not intentionally.

Of course, this is your project. You can do what you like with it, and I never said that you had to fix it. I think you should, but if you don't want to, you don't have to.

I hate this philosophy SOOOOOOOOOO much. You're pretty much saying "AUTOMATIC PLOT BOOST FTW" in my book. As one who enjoys writing and loves tearing apart (secretly) flawed characters and flawed plots (including my own, I've torn apart so many of my own ideas and characters you'd think I had no self-esteem) I don't think I should say anymore before I lose my cool and start swearing...

I don't think he's saying that you have to make every main character into a Mary Sue. It's more that if you're going to be forced to use a character, they shouldn't be Vyland.

Shon doesn't fit into this category. By the end of the story Shon is still not very strong. He's stronger, but he's still not extremely strong. He's not like Ike or Ross who grow into huge tanks.

Except that Ross actually has below average growth rates and doesn't end up particularly good?

Without having completed the finished game or me spoiling you, you can't have known that, which is why you should take into account that I'm not a complete dumbass and actually have reasons for almost every single thing I do.

It's not that people don't think you have reasons, it's more that people don't think your reasons are good enough.

Now hold on a ramalama ding-dongin' second here. He didn't say overpowered, great, etc. He said "never be bad". As in "doesn't have to be a game-breaker or able to sweep entire enemies by him/herself, but should not fall under the category of dead-weight, forced to use because the plot demands it". Think Eliwood vs. Micaiah in terms of their usability. I can't numbers to save my life, so I'll use their classes and what I perceive as decent compared to the rest of the cast. Eliwood has combat function and uses both lances and swords, and even gets a horse. Not to mention he can take a few hits. Is he by any means the most OP character in FE7? No, but he's not exactly dead-weight either. Really, his only flaw as a class is that Durandal outweighs him. Micaiah, on the other hand, is made of paper, slow as molasses at the peak of winter, and pretty much shafted in combat unless you dump all of your stat boosters on her or spam Sacrifice. Which, by the way, gets put on the wayside the second she gets healing staves. She becomes a stave lord rather than a magic lord. And she's still made of paper and slower than a boulder going uphill. And that's terrible.

I don't have any qualms about the game forcing me to use Micaiah: her chip damage is always good and a staff user is always desirable, and while she's not the best character, she is useful and usable. A better comparison is Roy, who starts out way inferior to his contemporaries Alan and Lance and only gets worse as the game goes along due to his underwhelming growth rates, poor move and late promotion. Or being forced to bring Kurthnaga into 4-E.

[Crimson Red]

...translates to "yeah, nah, I'm gonna stick with giving him the prf weapon and not doing anything else".

No, I made adjustments to Shon a long time ago. He's less useless but the foundation of his stats and growths are still generally the same. You could say that despite the fact that he "changes tier" throughout the entire game, he's been upped one level as a whole. (Instead of being terrible, he's just bad, and instead of being average, he's good). Again, nothing I can say can really prove this so I guess you'll have to wait for the release (assuming you care enough and aren't just replying for arguments sake).

I don't think he's saying that you have to make every main character into a Mary Sue. It's more that if you're going to be forced to use a character, they shouldn't be Vyland.

Mhm, I do limit his forced-ness though. I think that his plot relevance might suggest that you HAVE to use him, but really, you can keep him in the back lines and he will never be so bad that you are forced to protect him all the time through a circle formation with Shon in the middle on the 2-3 chapters you ARE forced to use him. I've never used Shon as a main unit on any of my playthroughs but one, IIRC, in which he could always handle his own but not much more than that (I consider that being "not good, but not a dead-weight").

It's not that people don't think you have reasons, it's more that people don't think your reasons are good enough.

Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying that. Then... I guess my reasons aren't strong enough. Well, I'd be foolish(er?--assuming people already think I'm foolish, which is likely <3) if I expected them to. The creators and the users rarely ever see eye to eye unless the (majority of) users force the creators to do their bidding/make it how they want. But since I'm only doing this for fun and not for money or some other purpose, I don't have any motivation for that. XD

I also hate changing characters and story, especially characters. If you throw a character out-of-character for even a second in a script, I'll freak out. It's an issue I need to deal with... it's like being OCD about precedence with my own ideas/creations. I could never make a book and have it be made into the movie, it would never work out. Though I don't have enough talent to write a book anyway XD

But yeah back to the point... Shon has a reason for not being overpowered from the start, and he will not be super bad like he is now. If it makes anyone feel any better, I'm sorry that v4.6 is flawed and has an overbearingly terrible Shon with no counter-measures to his suckiness, and I don't deny that he's terrible because I've made fun of it in videos several times now IIRC. Since I admitted the current version is bad, explained how I'm going to only make it slightly better but bearable in the next version and WHY it's only a slight change and not a rehaul of Shon, and explained why I think the way I do, as well as why I can't explain things in more detail (though I don't know why anyone would care about my shitty plot anyway, right? XD), am I done? Or are my explanations still insufficient and should I just roll over and die? XD

[charlie_]

If you're on about not being out of character have you removed the over 9000 part?

[izanagi61]

wait wait wait. you say you've only used shon once. and in this playthrough, it was in a patch after you had already improved him. so how do you really know how bad he is? i'm sorry if i'm beating a dead horse here, but i'm not sure you understand level of terribleness that is shon. i mean level 14 6 strength. wtf. i mean last i checked on the main site ( probably outdated ) that 4.6 patch only goes to chapter 21 ( i hope to god i'm wrong ). which mean we're stuck with BS shon. i mean if he's only able to handle himself promoted with silvans, then that means you're judging with special circumstances. imagine if every sword user had a silvans. by comparison, he's still shitty.

and of course we care. if we didn't, we'd have let this topic/hack die. its not that your reasons weren't good enough, its just that when you consider what we said, your argument doesn't make sense. basically what you said was silvans makes him good and i don't like change.

[CT075]

It seems that hacking the game to make one unit super-powerful is not a very good gauge of how good the rest of the cast is when it comes to balance.

or maybe not. I dunno.

EDIT:

Although, to be fair, if I have Edward in FE10 with base speed at level 20/20/20, does that mean that Eddie's speed growth sucks? Just because your Shon got screwed in a creator-admitted flawed version does not mean that he will always be awful.

Not to mention that first you say that Shon sucks and needs change and then turn around and say "I don't like change". Might be something to think about...

Edited February 15, 2012 by Camtech

[Nanami Touko]

and of course we care. if we didn't, we'd have let this topic/hack die. its not that your reasons weren't good enough, its just that when you consider what we said, your argument doesn't make sense. basically what you said was silvans makes him good and i don't like change.

Did you... skim over everything he said? He admitted that Shon sucks in 4.6 He said he's going to be making him better so that he doesn't have to rely on just that weapon, although it won't be a massive overhaul. And Shon isn't even a forced character. So if your Shon does get screwed over, which says nothing to the character himself, just to your luck at RNG; if your Shon gets screwed over you can just bench him.

So... I don't what you are saying here, since Blazer already said he was going to fix it :/

In fact, he didn't say he was going to fix it, he said he'd already fixed it. He just hasn't released anything yet because he wants to finish it first ;/

Edited February 15, 2012 by seph1212

[izanagi61]

1. double post ran out of space. when was i rude? i didn't mean for it to be but i apologise if it seemed that way. and you dont have to change him. its not that i'm insisting but that your reasons for not changing him just dont click in my brain. i honestly want the best for this game. which is why i state my opinion so persistently. buffing shon won't necessarily make the game better, but it won't make it worse. it has nowhere to go but up. and stop putting yourself down so much. this game is something to be proud of. sure it has flaws but nothing is perfect.

[Nanami Touko]

i honestly want the best for this game. which is why i state my opinion so persistently.

Blazer already addressed this point too, and while I don't necessarily agree with him not taking the public's views into account over his I think that a product should be made for people and to be enjoyed by people more than the person making it, it's his choice to make the game based on what he wants. So... maybe you should take the time to re-read what he posted, because you seem to have missed a lot of what he said.

[izanagi61]

Did you... skim over everything he said? He admitted that Shon sucks in 4.6 He said he's going to be making him better so that he doesn't have to rely on just that weapon, although it won't be a massive overhaul. And Shon isn't even a forced character. So if your Shon does get screwed over, which says nothing to the character himself, just to your luck at RNG; if your Shon gets screwed over you can just bench him.

So... I don't what you are saying here, since Blazer already said he was going to fix it

he implyed that the change to shon was gonna be so minor that it'll barely matter. he literally said that shon will still be bad, just not terrible, and thats not really reassuring. i guess i'm starting to sound like a dbag even though i'm trying not to be. i'll stop talking about shon accept his destiny as low tier. but can i ask a question? why are there such a shortage of axe users?

[Jubby]

Thing is it's like, why would Blazer be making it for the people? It's his project, really I think he should be able to make it anyway he wants :P If he were getting paid for it, different story, but whatever :P Also that's cause it started out as a commmunity project, people submitted their growths, stats, portraits, classes, etc. That's also why there're so many blond, black haired and brunette people, self portraits :3

Edit: Nobody wanted to be an axe user, basically

Edited February 15, 2012 by Jubby

[Nanami Touko]

he implyed that the change to shon was gonna be so minor that it'll barely matter. he literally said that shon will still be bad, just not terrible, and thats not really reassuring. i guess i'm starting to sound like a dbag even though i'm trying not to be. i'll stop talking about shon accept his destiny as low tier. but can i ask a question? why are there such a shortage of axe users?

Yes, but why does Shon have to be super terrific? Why does he even have to be good? He's not a forced unit and he can hold his own, so... what's wrong with him being mediocre?

[Jubby]

Exactly. I train people that suck occasionally just cause I like them :P Maybe Shon's like that :3

[FalconVegeta1986]

Not to mention that first you say that Shon sucks and needs change and then turn around and say "I don't like change". Might be something to think about...

I believe he may have been implying that blazer doesn't like change, not himself.

And with all this talk about Shon being bad, i'm starting to think i'm the only person who's never gotten screwed in level-ups with him. Now, maybe i've missed something along the way, but i'd have to say you've just been getting trolled by the RNG, izanagi61.

And since when has a characters age ever determined their fighting ability?

Edited February 15, 2012 by FalconVegeta1986

[The Blind Archer]

And since when has a characters age ever determined their fighting ability?

Let's have an experiment. Start by putting a 14-year-old and a 30-year-old in a boxing ring. Let the rest sort itself out.

Edited February 15, 2012 by The Blind Archer

[CT075]

five bucks I could win that fight

There's a mild difference between "you got screwed because my guy is awesome" and "I got blessed". Mostly that the former makes no sense whatsoever.

[FalconVegeta1986]

Let's have an experiment. Start by putting a 14-year-old and a 30-year-old in a boxing ring. Let the rest sort itself out.

Yes, this totally has to do with the mechanics in a video game. How did I miss that?

Even then, what are the statistics of each of the fighters? Are you talking some 30 year old who's never exercised a day in his life? Is the 14 year old one of those kids who has a huge growth spurt and is 6 feet tall by high school? Honestly, it looks like you just pulled that statement out of your ass to make me look bad.

@Cam: Even blazer said he was getting RNG screwed, and that's all he should have ever had to say, after all, it keeps being said that it's his hack despite people still wanting to rip apart his characters and argue for no good reason. No amount of arguing will make him change his mind if he doesn't see a problem with it and has reasons for why things are the way they are. And have you even looked at the stats that izanagi61 posted? Yeah, there's getting blessed/screwed, and forcing a character to be good or bad, and then there's just completely unrealistic. Not to mention, his stats don't match up from one post to the other.

[The Blind Archer]

Ah, right, silly me. How dare I respond to a comment about age with a hypothetical situation involving age. How embarrassing.

Carry on, then.

[FalconVegeta1986]

Ah, right, silly me. How dare I respond to a comment about age with a hypothetical situation involving age. How embarrassing.

Carry on, then.

Never said it was wrong, just that my comment was more aimed towards all the kids you see in video games wielding swords twice their size and using magic. I guess I could have been more clear, but it's over now.

[CT075]

...what

I honestly don't even know what you just said. "The age of the character shouldn't translate into their numbers-" Fuck yes it should, it's not realistic to have this 14-year-old kid fighting on-par or better than 20-year veterans. It just defies logic, numbers be damned.

EDIT: Ah, yes. Respond to a comment on realism by saying "WELL THESE THINGS AREN'T REALISTIC EITHER". That's... just... no, no, no.

And yes, it's his hack. Nobody can make him change it, fine. That tends not to sit to well with "good PR", just saying. although ignoring crit is a thing that he and his staff Nayr have been known for anyway so...

Edited February 15, 2012 by Camtech

[FalconVegeta1986]

...what

I honestly don't even know what you just said. "The age of the character shouldn't translate into their numbers-" Fuck yes it should, it's not realistic to have this 14-year-old kid fighting on-par or better than 20-year veterans. It just defies logic, numbers be damned.

EDIT: Ah, yes. Respond to a comment on realism by saying "WELL THESE THINGS AREN'T REALISTIC EITHER". That's... just... no, no, no.

Again, I was talking about the logic in a video game, where 14 year old kids can beat 30 year olds. And as far as your edit, yeah, I suck at things like that. Sounded good in my head though!

And yes, it's his hack. Nobody can make him change it, fine. That tends not to sit to well with "good PR", just saying. although ignoring crit is a thing that he and his staff Nayr have been known for anyway so...

Ignoring crit is never a good thing. Even if you don't feel like something should be changed/added/etc., you should always consider that it does affect the game in some way if multiple people are complaining about it, even if you're not going to change it. And then there's things that people don't change, perhaps because it's something they really want to have in the game, a particular set-up/event, or just an idea that was brewing for a few months/years and it became a part of the hack before it was ever implemented. Not to mention he did say the current version is flawed, so why argue something that's likely going to be changed anyway?

I hope I actually make sense this time.