Fire Emblem 12 ~Heroes~ Translation Project

[The Blind Archer]

Alright, time for me to screw you guys up even more. Hm... how 'bout Colleine?

Variation of the name Colleen while still keeping the last-four-letter thing in mind.

Yes? No? Maybe? Banana?

[Arch]

No harshness was implied nor derived, Blazer. This is one thing I can do to make myself useful at the moment, since I am kinda useless right now.

Anyways, although the "Claine Debates" are sure to rage on, I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinions on naming "Everyone's Conditions." We're trying to come up with a better name for it (since having long names on the prep. screen looks odd with all the other short names). Names we've used so far are "Bonus" (which is kinda bland) and "Check Allies" (which, as I said, looks odd). Let's hear what the fans have for suggestions on this.

My suggestion is just "Conditions," but I feel like that implies something like "conditions about the map" and such instead of checking on your allies' conditions.

[Psych]

What about Crane? Like the bird? That's what Kuraine seems like to me. >_>

Or Craine, if you want to keep the whole Katarina name thing in there.

Everyone's Conditions could be something like Standings. But that seems weird.

Edited August 5, 2011 by The Magnificent Psykini

[eclipse]

Hmmm. . .is "Everyone's Condition" the one that gives a conversation, followed by an item at the end of the chain? If so, perhaps change it to "Info", since it (sorta) functions like the FE9/10 section with the same name.

[Rewjeo]

What about Crane? Like the bird? That's what Kuraine seems like to me. >_>

Or Craine, if you want to keep the whole Katarina name thing in there.

Everyone's Conditions could be something like Standings. But that seems weird.

Except you don't say Crane 'Crine,' which is how KurAIne would be pronounced. FE6's is actually much closer to Crane than FE12's.

Why couldn't you take it seriously if you saw "Aina?"

[Momo]

No harshness was implied nor derived, Blazer. This is one thing I can do to make myself useful at the moment, since I am kinda useless right now.

Anyways, although the "Claine Debates" are sure to rage on, I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinions on naming "Everyone's Conditions." We're trying to come up with a better name for it (since having long names on the prep. screen looks odd with all the other short names). Names we've used so far are "Bonus" (which is kinda bland) and "Check Allies" (which, as I said, looks odd). Let's hear what the fans have for suggestions on this.

My suggestion is just "Conditions," but I feel like that implies something like "conditions about the map" and such instead of checking on your allies' conditions.

You're talking about the psudo support convo menu, right? Call it "Check Morale" or "Unit Morale", something along those lines.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Saloma

[Darros]

Hmmm. . .is "Everyone's Condition" the one that gives a conversation, followed by an item at the end of the chain? If so, perhaps change it to "Info", since it (sorta) functions like the FE9/10 section with the same name.

There already is an info section though, the one above it (unless I'm confused, in which case ignore me)

[Celice]

That's part of the point, I think. The argument against using Kleine for this game is based on a faulty translation and faulty rationalization of a previous game--when you've sorted this out, all you have is, I prefer it this way so I'm going to do it this way.

Also, Claine is a unisex name. Simply because you haven't been exposed to it in your culture/society, does not make it acceptable to brute-force into one gender or the other. Equally, Claine's perceived femininity is based on the bias of the romantic languages, most notable, the addition of an 'e' in some of them to designate femininity (French is the loser on this bit) and the association with the pronunciation as well--and further, the use of a 'C' rather than a 'K' (which is a really bad one to depend on, since... just no).

This makes most of the justifications for choosing one name over the other biased and nonobjective, which sort of ruins the whole attempt at actually translating. What a majority of the suggestions argue is that if the person feels a name should convey something that only they associate with what is being conveyed (they want certain features because to them, not objectively, those features are connoted by 'e' 'C' and pronunciation)--again, that's hardly translating. That's writing. That's ignoring the act of translation and instead overwriting with your own idea of what it should have been. In the grander scheme, it's erasing Marth entirely because, "Well, that's just not what I've read happens" and choosing, what to you alone feel, is a more befitting telling of the occasion. And you never want to just write what you think is being said--you want to write what is being said. You don't justify a choice, you simply make it based on observation. Justification, that isn't observation.

Except you don't say Crane 'Crine,' which is how KurAIne would be pronounced. FE6's is actually much closer to Crane than FE12's.

Looking at the name right now on my DS, I'd pronounce it Crane/Kleine. I think you're attaching an improper pronunciation to that rising kana before the 'n' sound. My familiarity with some basic Kana isn't the best, but I've never pronounced Kain's name 'Kine.' Or Freyr's name 'Fry' ('Frey' if you're ignoring mythological context).

For whatever Arch is talking about, it sounds more like you could get away with Army Conditions or Troop Conditions.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Celice

[Arch]

Jesus Celice, go eat a sandwich. Maybe some good sourdough will calm down that hyperbolic flare? Erasing Marth from the story is being compared to changing two letters in a name? Great joke, great joke indeed. That's all we're doing, changing two letters in a name. The 'c' sound is a softer sound than the 'k,' which makes it sound more feminine (but you don't seem to care about that). There's also the 'e' ending which you outlined, like it or not we do have that bias toward romantic languages. That bias is part of how people view language, it's totally valid. I don't know how we can debate linguistics if you just dismiss the parts that justify the opposing stance. I'd also like to know what Kleine portrays that you seem to think "Claine" doesn't. I don't see us erasing anything by changing those two letters (unlike, say, Soanevalcke -> Stefan, which DID erase an allusion).

Really, prolonging this whole Kleine vs. Claine debate is absolutely absurd. The only change from Claine at this point would be one that goes in a direction further away from Kleine.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Arch

[Tryhard]

ITT: Names are srs business.

[Parrhesia]

Honestly, I'm sure I speak for a silent majority when I say that I'll just take what's given to me, and be happy for it. The community should be grateful we're getting anything at all, and complaining about 'Claine' being used as a name when Maji became Cord to general relief is honestly disgraceful, and reflects badly on the community as a whole.

[Aleph]

So it's クライン?

First way to spell that which comes to mind: this article

I'm assuming the game is being translated into English. What are the ways English speakers here have seen that name spelled in the context of their language?

Klein right?

That said if it's such a big deal just edit the translation yourself after it gets released if it bothers you.

Also if I actually cared I would be perfectly happy if names of people (not items, since it wouldn't really work there) were simply left as romaji for the "debatable" scenarios. At least then I wouldn't be like "wtf how do I say this" like I did with Sacae for like, ever.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Obviam

[Celice]

Jesus Celice, go eat a sandwich. Maybe some good sourdough will calm down that hyperbolic flare? Erasing Marth from the story is being compared to changing two letters in a name? Great joke, great joke indeed.

If you're associating an outer-reaction with my words, you have a funny way of reading. Continue that way and you might as well forget ever something being intended--you'll just read what you think is being said. I'm pointing out very real problems with these arguments--if they sound severe, at least some how you're acknowledging the impact you're committing.

It is a huge difference. That's why I said on the grander scheme. however, that doesn't make it any less true--the impact may differ from players but that's avoiding the fact that you're committing the same fallacy. You're, completely first-hand, choosing to forego what is being expressly shown and try and slip in what you're guessing should be there. Simply because you're doing it on a smaller scale doesn't make it any better nor worse. You're doing the exact same thing regardless. This is probably the larger reason why something like 'Wayu' is changed to 'Mia.' And 'Tina' into 'Terra.' Those are acts of localization which are worthy because they're sticking to translating. They're not choosing words for all the wrong reasons.

like it or not we do have that bias toward romantic languages. That bias is part of how people view language

No one said we didn't. Again, short-cutting based on excuses aren't really part of creating an actual translation. If something were trying to be conveyed by the name or text that otherwise is lost (just look at jokes which have to be entirely rewritten because the new language just doesn't support the joke at all, or even the sayings thread over in the general section of this board), part of translation is to localize the content so the exact same feeling is preserved. Not inject your own feeling.

I'd also like to know what Kleine portrays that you seem to think "Claine" doesn't.

I don't. Both suffice. Your argument for why one should be the other, doesn't. Just like with the example above, it doesn't matter at what scale you're trying to justify your changes or for what reasons--it doesn't change that you're trying to override the game-script--that you're ignoring objectivity completely--to sate your subjective appreciation. Really, FE6's Klein absolutely nothing to do with FE3 DS. As such, it shouldn't be part of the argument whatsoever. It's irrelevant.

So it's クライン?

First way to spell that which comes to mind: this article

I'm assuming the game is being translated into English. What are the ways English speakers here have seen that name spelled in the context of their language?

Klein right?

not to mention IS's love of germanic origins and naming conventions

Edited August 5, 2011 by Celice

[Arch]

So, you admit that Claine vs. Kleine doesn't matter, but you just want to argue it anyways? You definitely need a sandwich. We aren't erasing anything with this change, and if you actually saw want goes on behind-the-scenes, you'd know that we've been quite mindful of original intent. We understand the gravity of changing things that have actual importance. This two-letter change makes no impact on the story or meaning in any way. If there's an actual change that ignores original intent or erases part of the story/meaning, then you can come knocking at our doors with this lecture. But, in the meantime, I'd like to keep a bit of my sanity intact.

Anyways, let's discuss something that does matter and will be changed. There's a poll on Malliesia's name up.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Arch

[Celice]

Again, it's not what the name is being changed to. It's your argument for it... which you're repeating for this character now, and Blazer did for the Rainbow Potion. That is the point which should be addressed. It's not what the name says that is making a difference--it's your opinion of what it should and shouldn't be which is faulty.

The original name, we feel, is unnecessarily bulky and could stand to be changed for the better.

"The object a small group does not like, and decides it can be changed for the masses to accept."

All of the best suggestions will be compiled into a poll to be voted on by the community (and yes, 'Malliesia' will not be an option).

That doesn't seem to be the case considering the poll right next to this thread. You and Blazer have an awful of of "you don't like it too bad" attitude going on with this translation. That's a bit unfitting, considering your lack of actual translation with the project, but attention to technical detail.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Celice

[Arch]

Yeah, Vincent ninja'd me, Celice. That's why I edited the post.

Anyways, it's our opinion that the name should be changed. FE4's translation challenged the masses, as did FE6's. It's not like we're doing anything unprecedented. If you don't like it, you can play the game in Japanese or translate it yourself. We're just trying to put out the best product we can.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Arch

[Crimson Red]

"You don't like it, too bad"? I dunno, considering we could have done what most translations I know do and not ask for community's input... >_>

It's more of "give us your suggestion and live with the outcome".

[Celice]

You have not been part of many fan translation groups these past ten years, apparently.

[Arch]

Yup. The team that allows people to vote on name changes is actually the evil syndicate forcing change down the throat of the community. Someone get this man some sourdough with Swiss cheese, Italian meats and mayo, STAT!

Anyways, we're going to keep doing it our way. Some names are in need of translating (not just spelling Japanese names with English characters), and so we shall change them. We'll always be open to community input, and things will, for the large part, be settled on a democratic basis. But we also reserve the right to stand our ground on certain things (like Claine over Kleine), especially when the community starts wandering angrily in the realms of absurdity (like debating a two-letter name change). This is the direction we feel is appropriate, and any further complaints about that direction will fall on deaf ears, Celice.

[Bryan]

I'd vote for as many FE11 names as possible. Other than that, I don't really care about anything.

Abbreviations suck though. Iron Lnc. <<<<<<<< Iron Lance.

[Celice]

Yup. The team that allows people to vote on name changes is actually the evil syndicate forcing change down the throat of the community.

Thanks for letting us know. It wasn't brought to our attention until you said something. Perchance, it might have never of even been known this team was evil. Though, it would help if you specified what 'team' you're talking about. Many have come and gone throughout those ten years.

hyperbolic flare

[Paperblade]

I don't care that much about how it's translated, I just think it's odd to change the way the names are translated.

[Arch]

I personally find it odd that direct translations based upon the sound of a Japanese name (a.k.a. spelling the Japanese sounds with English characters) were thrust upon the our community and are now heralded as untouchable. However, I'm a bit more supportive of liberal naming than the team as a whole.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Arch

[Crimson Red]

localization > translation, perhaps. It's an issue people don't like to touch. When you give the people the power to talk to the translators directly, it becomes a real issue--otherwise the complaints of localizations (Sheeda->Caeda) generally go unheard and die out sooner than later. just saying.

You have not been part of many fan translation groups these past ten years, apparently.

Yeah, you got me there. I've only seen a few complete translations. The rest died out. None that I've seen got much community input, but as you said, I'm not knowledgeable on the area, and can only speak of my own limited experience...

EDIT: Been doing some graphics with Zak, our new graphics artist.

I'm setting up my flame shields for complaints on the title screen I worked my ass off to insert >_>

Edited August 5, 2011 by Luffy

[FionordeQuester]

Question, do you guys plan on taking liberties with the script the way Fire Emblem translators sometimes did such as in Shadow Dragon and Radiance Dawn? Or is this going to be a mainly literal translation?