Rewjeo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Anyways, I thought we settled this months ago in the last "great Malliesia debate." Hilarious to see people still causing a fuss. Just let the translators do their jobs, they're all trust-worthy people. It was never settled so much as people realized that there was no way to make any headway. Life is only as simple as people make it, and people would much rather throw their 2 cents in and make a fuss about something if they feel it's an "injustice", no matter how small or inconsequential. Being "trust-worthy" is probably not the problem in the eyes of the people who are arguing names... or else I'm wrong and I need to be corrected. Anyway, if people feel something isn't properly done for whatever reason, then they'll generally speak up against it or take some kind of action so long as 1) there is no fear of being punished for it, 2) there are no major requirements for doing so such as but not limited to money or status, 3) they have the free time to go out of their way to do so, and 4) they think they might have some sort of foreseeable impact by taking said action. For the small portion of people here, they don't think they're going to get punished for speaking out (and they'd probably try to argue against said punishment anyway), they have the time and means (typing a post is pretty easy or else lazy people like me wouldn't do it), and they think they might have some sort of impact because we'll either respond or seem like ignorant people who don't want to do things the right way if we don't respond, and I'd love to feign ignorance of the entire situation itself but it's not in me to be such a blatant coward. You say this like trying to do things to make yourself happier is bad. Certainly people tend to go just a wee bit overboard, but, well, it is the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 @dondon151 if only I saw your post 6 minutes later it would have been the funniest post of the day. and the only nominee at that nothing funny about it, because everyone knows that it's true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Around how long is it going to take for the translation to be complete :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nflchamp Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Life is only as simple as people make it, and people would much rather throw their 2 cents in and make a fuss about something if they feel it's an "injustice", no matter how small or inconsequential. Being "trust-worthy" is probably not the problem in the eyes of the people who are arguing names... or else I'm wrong and I need to be corrected. Anyway, if people feel something isn't properly done for whatever reason, then they'll generally speak up against it or take some kind of action so long as 1) there is no fear of being punished for it, I'm going to go ahead and shoot you down on this idea. I don't raise issues, and I'd go out on a limb to say most critics of you in this thread are the same, because I don't feel I'll be "punished" (though the idea of being punished by you while I'm doing nothing wrong is hilarious) but rather because I fear I'll be "punished" by not doing so int the from of a lower quality translation that I have a vested interest. I fear that you may err, either becoming too zealous with changes or losing the passion required to make needed ones, if you aren't criticized for questionable decisions. I hope that you face your critics not by ignoring them, but by resolving to be able to explain and defend why the choices you made are the correct ones. For example, in this entire Malliesia debate you've actually moved from Malliesia is a "bad" name to Malliesia would be difficult for English speakers to deal with (phonetically) and Malicia may reinforce her characterization. Obviously the latter is better explanation for a change than the former. I can even go so far as accept the change even if there are outstanding arguments. Where the problems lie are changes like Belf to Vergil. I can tell you now, this character and everything about him will have a slightly different tinge as Vergil than as Belf and it might not be a tinge that's supposed to be there. Yet the only reason I know of for why the change occurred is "Belf is a stupid name." You're confirming my biggest fears, you'll liberally make changes that may change the story from what it was intended to be. And you might not even realize you did it. Through the lens that is your life and your opinions you may think your changes and translations are in agreement with the intended story, even if they're not. What I hope is that, through criticism and the knowledge you will be criticized, you'll avoid falling into such mishaps. I feel I have to apologize for only taking actions I can actually take, that I feel may be worthwhile as far as future returns are concerned, in the time I can actually spend to take them, though. You aren't important enough for me to waste non-free time and extreme amount of effort on - probably because you don't have nor are in a position to receive a power over my life, at the basest level, I don't want you to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm going to go ahead and shoot you down on this idea. I don't raise issues, and I'd go out on a limb to say most critics of you in this thread are the same, because I don't feel I'll be "punished" (though the idea of being punished by you while I'm doing nothing wrong is hilarious) but rather because I fear I'll be "punished" by not doing so int the from of a lower quality translation that I have a vested interest. I fear that you may err, either becoming too zealous with changes or losing the passion required to make needed ones, if you aren't criticized for questionable decisions. I hope that you face your critics not by ignoring them, but by resolving to be able to explain and defend why the choices you made are the correct ones. For example, in this entire Malliesia debate you've actually moved from Malliesia is a "bad" name to Malliesia would be difficult for English speakers to deal with (phonetically) and Malicia may reinforce her characterization. Obviously the latter is better explanation for a change than the former. I can even go so far as accept the change even if there are outstanding arguments. Where the problems lie are changes like Belf to Vergil. I can tell you now, this character and everything about him will have a slightly different tinge as Vergil than as Belf and it might not be a tinge that's supposed to be there. Yet the only reason I know of for why the change occurred is "Belf is a stupid name." You're confirming my biggest fears, you'll liberally make changes that may change the story from what it was intended to be. And you might not even realize you did it. Through the lens that is your life and your opinions you may think your changes and translations are in agreement with the intended story, even if they're not. What I hope is that, through criticism and the knowledge you will be criticized, you'll avoid falling into such mishaps. I feel I have to apologize for only taking actions I can actually take, that I feel may be worthwhile as far as future returns are concerned, in the time I can actually spend to take them, though. You aren't important enough for me to waste non-free time and extreme amount of effort on - probably because you don't have nor are in a position to receive a power over my life, at the basest level, I don't want you to have. This perspective--so welcomed unfortunately it can succumb to "I dun care" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Red Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Around how long is it going to take for the translation to be complete :) Sorry, we don't have any ETA in mind. @nflchamp sorry, I don't have time to read and respond to your post, but thank you for your feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think I'll take a risk in saying this... Some people may not agree with me here, but since we took on the task of translating this game, we did so because we believed that we're the ones most capable enough to handle it (not counting a professional translation, which isn't happening). When we make decisions, whether simple name changes, we'll do our best to make what we believe is the best choice--sometimes our reasons for making a choice are pretty straightforward or trivial. We have to make many choices throughout the translation and we don't expect to have to explain and defend our every choice--sure, we appreciate fan feedback, but we can't always please everybody and at the end of the day, we're the ones making the calls and so we ask that you trust us. I'm happy that people seem keen on how we're translating, but the discussion about name changes is getting really boring for me. It's already coming to the time when the localisation process is gathering speed and the final names are being etched. Even if we wanted to, there's no time to change any names now... and honestly, I don't remember having to ever defend my slightly dubious FE3 translation or people questioning Shaya for using "Hero" instead of "Mercenary" or Eaichu using the name "Tate". I'm not trying to blame anybody and this is a rather flawed example, but every second I'm typing out a defence for a choice we made, I could have been, you know, working on the actual translation. I sort of understand if people are worried about out translation practices when we become "liberal" with name changes, but you need to understand there are several people on our team, each with their own very different roles. This means we've got our own internal feedback system that prevents people from implementing a liberal idea that won't work. Additionally, the people who suggested the name changes aren't always the same people translating or localising. In fact, I think the translators would probably lop off heads if they found their script to be changed too liberally. In any case, apologies for the rant. TL;DR version: Guys, don't sweat the name changes, seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think I'll take a risk in saying this... Some people may not agree with me here, but since we took on the task of translating this game, we did so because we believed that we're the ones most capable enough to handle it (not counting a professional translation, which isn't happening). When we make decisions, whether simple name changes, we'll do our best to make what we believe is the best choice--sometimes our reasons for making a choice are pretty straightforward or trivial. We have to make many choices throughout the translation and we don't expect to have to explain and defend our every choice--sure, we appreciate fan feedback, but we can't always please everybody and at the end of the day, we're the ones making the calls and so we ask that you trust us. I'm happy that people seem keen on how we're translating, but the discussion about name changes is getting really boring for me. It's already coming to the time when the localisation process is gathering speed and the final names are being etched. Even if we wanted to, there's no time to change any names now... and honestly, I don't remember having to ever defend my slightly dubious FE3 translation or people questioning Shaya for using "Hero" instead of "Mercenary" or Eaichu using the name "Tate". I'm not trying to blame anybody and this is a rather flawed example, but every second I'm typing out a defence for a choice we made, I could have been, you know, working on the actual translation. I sort of understand if people are worried about out translation practices when we become "liberal" with name changes, but you need to understand there are several people on our team, each with their own very different roles. This means we've got our own internal feedback system that prevents people from implementing a liberal idea that won't work. Additionally, the people who suggested the name changes aren't always the same people translating or localising. In fact, I think the translators would probably lop off heads if they found their script to be changed too liberally. In any case, apologies for the rant. TL;DR version: Guys, don't sweat the name changes, seriously. This is exactly why you should be the ones explaining shit about the translation patch instead of Blazer. Thank you for taking the time to write out a polite and thoughtful explanation on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeaderR Elliot Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This is exactly why you should be the ones explaining shit about the translation patch instead of Blazer. Thank you for taking the time to write out a polite and thoughtful explanation on the subject. That is no explanation for excuse the Belf name change. That only explains that they are so tired of these small complains about names and still won´t care. I have to say it really affects me to read "Vergil" instead of Belf because he First patch if IIRC had Belf name. And if IIRC in the Poll about Belf name (the one in the translation site), Belf was not an option. So it is not fair. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Some members reeeeeally hated the name Belf, it seems. But as Vincent said, you shouldn't sweat it. He's a pretty minor character, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeaderR Elliot Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Some members reeeeeally hated the name Belf, it seems. But as Vincent said, you shouldn't sweat it. He's a pretty minor character, after all. No, every character is important. Really? hate?... To the point to say... like: "If we do not change Malliesa Belf name we won´t continue with the translation!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 No, every character is important. Really? hate?... To the point to say... like: "If we do not change Malliesa Belf name we won´t continue with the translation!!!" Some characters are more important than others, though. I wasn't around when that discussion happened, so I can't say if it went that far... (also, Malicia is actually a valid reading of マリーシア/Mariishia. In fact, it's on of the most straightforward readings you can make of it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Red Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Most people don't respond well to politeness and take it as a reason to be even more pushy, and even if I explained the translator's choices for people (note: I am not a translator and don't decide the names, thankfully--if I did this translation would not be very good and the rest of the team can testify to that) that wouldn't stop them from arguing back and getting even more furious once they found out that our reasons are "bad" or "weak" or whatever (because people, once they get angry about something, will usually not be mature enough to step back and admit they were wrong due to pride/egos, with rare exceptions). Anyway, I'm not polite but neither are most of you so I don't see any problem with treating others the way they treat us, even if it means being condescending smart-asses. I won't be completely unreasonable though, if anyone wants an explanation and not a blown-up argument, I can chuck out explanations like I do baseballs, give me a portrait of the character and I'll tell you the name and why they were named it unless we haven't decided on a name yet. The hard part is not being a douchebag after we give the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Most people don't respond well to politeness and take it as a reason to be even more pushy, do you honestly think people respond better to inflammatory retorts see this is why everyone is skeptical that a person of your maturity is leading this project Edited February 10, 2012 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I have to say it really affects me to read "Vergil" instead of Belf because he First patch if IIRC had Belf name. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Most people don't respond well to politeness and take it as a reason to be even more pushy Anyway, I'm not polite but neither are most of you so I don't see any problem with treating others the way they treat us, even if it means being condescending smart-asses. Tell me, how often are you punched in the face in real life? Because from what I'm gathering here, I'd be amazed if it hasn't happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Red Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 see this is why everyone is skeptical that a person of your maturity is leading this project 1) you and 10 other people isn't everyone 2) I'm not leading this project 3) if you have personal issues that's what personal messages are for, bro, though what you need is a personal massage Tell me, how often are you punched in the face in real life? Because from what I'm gathering here, I'd be amazed if it hasn't happened. 1) this is off-topic 2) I am like a completely different person offline, and for good reasons, the internet is not the real world, and I can't treat it like it is :\ I offered to explain things to you guys in a normal manner but so far I've only received rejections which seems to me like you guys really intend to just cause conflict. Which means I'm done since I tried being reasonable and I don't have anymore time to play with you kids. I should have quit a while ago but I'm a hopeless idealist who believes in trying to bring out the smallest ounce of goodness in people ;) (or am I?). I'm tired of being a hypocrite though, as it is now I'm as much of a part of the problem as the rest of you. Be sure to take your anger out on me, I'll absorb your hate like a lovely little sponge, then squeeze myself dry and let it fall through the sink to the abyss. <3 if anyone has any actual questions about the project do PM me, I will be working hard hacking and managing stuff in the background to try and keep up with TheEnd's insane translation speed >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) The fact that you continually refer to "you guys" suggests you have this strange, self-projected image of certain people... of which, even if dondon were one of them, only ONE has appeared. You're posting against phantom images... which belies a sense of suspicion on your part. Especially with your projected motives you seem to understand about these "guys" you're on about. Why? For the same reasons Marth being changed to Kerry might be a bit startling to some players. Edited February 10, 2012 by Celice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Most people don't respond well to politeness and take it as a reason to be even more pushy, and even if I explained the translator's choices for people (note: I am not a translator and don't decide the names, thankfully--if I did this translation would not be very good and the rest of the team can testify to that) that wouldn't stop them from arguing back and getting even more furious once they found out that our reasons are "bad" or "weak" or whatever (because people, once they get angry about something, will usually not be mature enough to step back and admit they were wrong due to pride/egos, with rare exceptions). Anyway, I'm not polite but neither are most of you so I don't see any problem with treating others the way they treat us, even if it means being condescending smart-asses. I won't be completely unreasonable though, if anyone wants an explanation and not a blown-up argument, I can chuck out explanations like I do baseballs, give me a portrait of the character and I'll tell you the name and why they were named it unless we haven't decided on a name yet. The hard part is not being a douchebag after we give the explanation. I'd suggest attempting to be polite first and foremost. The reaction I saw from Vincent's post wasn't a bunch of people arguing with him. Argue with the idiots via PM or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I will be working hard hacking and managing stuff in the background to try and keep up with TheEnd's insane translation speed >_> What, I've been rather sluggish lately For the same reasons Marth being changed to Kerry might be a bit startling to some players. That example sounds like comparing the destruction of an actual building and that of a lego model, but whatever. The reaction I saw from Vincent's post wasn't a bunch of people arguing with him. Nobody can argue with Vincent Edited February 10, 2012 by TheEnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Or how about we all recognize that Vincent was right in the first place and there's nothing more to say. He says he'll take care of it; let him take care of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That example sounds like comparing the destruction of an actual building and that of a lego model, but whatever. No, other than how much you've become used to it, and it being used in localized versions of the game, it's the exact same thing. They're both names being subjected to the same thing--the role of Marth and how long he's been known has nothing to do with his name being changed. It may affect how you perceive the change, but it doesn't actually have any difference between Belf becoming Vergil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 No, other than how much you've become used to it, and it being used in localized versions of the game, it's the exact same thing. They're both names being subjected to the same thing--the role of Marth and how long he's been known has nothing to do with his name being changed. It may affect how you perceive the change, but it doesn't actually have any difference between Belf becoming Vergil. They're only the same as far as they're both name changes. Just like the lego and real buildings are both being destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) They're only the same as far as they're both name changes. Just like the lego and real buildings are both being destroyed. Exactly. Your impression of their worth doesn't have anything to do with the names being changed. It only makes it easier for one to accept a name change carelessly here, yet staunchly defend it there. Selective translations are generally frowned upon, then again, I'm speaking from academics. Its concept, though, extends to any act of translation. Edited February 10, 2012 by Celice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Preconceptions should not be ignored. In Marth's case, anyone likely to be familiar with FE will know him as Marth, and for good reason. For characters such as Vergil, however, who have never had any importance in any localized game, the impact of such preconceptions on the overall group of people who would be playing FE12 would be far smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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