Caliban of Sycorax Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Rules (Borrowed from whomever made them first with modifications) - Ratings to be assumed from when a unit is first available. - Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted (unless they fall into the general parameters of the average rating, but reasoning is still strongly encouraged on those even if you just wanna quote people) — incredibly low scores or high scores without proper justification will not be counted. Don't put in some random text thinking it'd count as justification. Put in at least a little thought and give REAL reasoning. - Numbers for votes, please - not something like "Sigurd/10", etc. - Personality / Appearance may be taken into account, but only +/- 1 point at the most. - Votes out of 10, or something proportional to it, please! - Make votes easily visible, please and thank you! - Every ranking phase will end on the next day at approximately 10:00 PM (or 22:00), EST. Units and Ranking (Least to Greatest) Diadora: 1.19 Ardan: 1.39 Tiltyu: 2.00 Briggid: 3.71 Claude: 4.42 Azel: 4.63 Jamka: 5.25 Midir: 5.47 Dew: 5.68 Holyn: 5.90 Lachesis: 6.13 Noish: 6.15 Alec: 6.17 Beowulf: 6.40 Aideen: 6.57 Ayra: 6.79 Levin: 7.87 Fin (First Generation): 7.88 Fury: 8.25 Cuan: 8.41 Lex: 8.83 Ethlin: 9.15 Sylvia: 9.50 Sigurd: 9.96 DAY 25: CELICE _ Second Generation gogogo So, Celice. He can inherit a shitton of good items from Daddy. Usually a 50+ kill Hero Sword, 50+ Kill Silver Sword, the Elite, Leg, Knight, and statbooster rings. He has Pursuit from Sigurd, so he doubles. With the Leg Ring, he's got the movement equivalent of a Horse. With 50+ kill swords, he's also getting a fair amount of Criticals. With the Elite Ring, he can promote before Chapter 7, and then really wreck shit. On a horse, 12 movement is pretty awesome. Since he shaves the shit out of turns, no point in giving it to anyone else, unless your dancer gets it. Oh, and then he gets the Tyrfing, and really wrecks shit. 9.75/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 The only correct rating for Celice in my mind is a ten. He's just Sigurd again, with better weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Existent Member Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Celice can inherit anything from his father, such as Silver Sword, Hero Sword, Elite Ring, and so on. He starts out weak but should be easy to train if he inherited the Elite Ring and the map is full axe-users. I once leveled him up to 30 by boss-abusing, then I promoted him in the next chapter. 10/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 The only thing that stopped me from giving Celice 10 was the fact that he doesn't start on a horse, like Sigurd, and the off chance he doesn't have the leg ring hinders him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Starwind Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 He's pretty much Sigurd but doesn't start on a horse. Honesty people without horses don't bother me. Most of the time I give Celice a leg ring anyways. Unlike Sigurd he's able to choose his wife. I'm sure most peoples Celices start with the 50 kill silver sword too. Anywho yeah. 10/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frat_tastic Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I think we should split this into 1st and 2nd generation lists. The units are all basically mutually exclusive and never exist at the same time so it doesn't make much sense to me to try and compare, say Beowulf to Johan, to me. First and Second generations are almost like 2 different games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Sigurd but with a slightly slower start. He has a bad habit of getting speed screwed but he's still the man. 9.5/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 9.75/10 I think he's not AS dominant as Sigurd, but the best way to use him is to try and make him be Sigurd++, so he's still ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I think we should split this into 1st and 2nd generation lists. The units are all basically mutually exclusive and never exist at the same time so it doesn't make much sense to me to try and compare, say Beowulf to Johan, to me. First and Second generations are almost like 2 different games. qft this I can't see a reason for anything lower than a 10/10 for Celice. He's not as amazing as Sigurd (debatable: sigurd has a horse but celice 1rkos his entire joining map unsupported and then gets a horse) but he's the king of Gen 2 when Sigurd is unfortunately dead and Sigurd is the king of Gen 1 when Celice is unfortunately a baby. And even then, there's the point that I like Celice more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 The only correct rating for Celice in my mind is a ten. He's just Sigurd again, with better weapons. This, as his ehhh... worthy start is only a big problem in drafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biabarr Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 9.75/10 He is Sigurd with a bit worse stats because he is Diadora's son. He has better weapons, but no horse until after promotion, which is a real bummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 celice 1rkos his entire joining map unsupported And by unsupported you mean "with 500 rings and powerful weapons", right? Everyone on that map can ORKO everything they face with ease as long as they get the amount of resources Celice gets. He isn't all that special in that regard. Of course, the fact that he can save turns with those resources means he's the best user of those, but I think Sigurd's dominance is more impressive considering who your next best units are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) And by unsupported you mean "with 500 rings and powerful weapons", right? Oh, sure. I only meant without the assistance of other units which, thanks to those resources not initially existing for Sigurd, isn't a choice for him. Yes, it's jinky logic at best and I know that. EDIT: also this is why gen 1 units shouldn't be compared to gen 2 units and vice versa Edited March 6, 2012 by Integrity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) I'm going to compartmentalize scoring relative to the situation units find themselves in, but come comparisons between generations are inevitable. Anyway, Celice... He's not his father. Eventually, he's better than his father; how can he not be? He has all his father's growths plus half his mom's shitty ones and Minor Heim to go with his Major Baldo. However, Sigurd-tier is not the way he starts. Thus he doesn't deserve the same score as Sigurd did because, relatively speaking, he's not as good from start to finish as Sigurd was start to finish. It also doesn't help him as much that, despite being just about as godly, he's hanging out with friends who are nearly as godly. No scrubs like Ardan and Alec for Celice; no, he's hanging out with kills-everything-instantly Swordtwins, Charisma-and-Horse Delmud, I'm Actually Good Oifaye, and Atomic Bowman Lester, and that's not even counting the bevy of other OP characters he'll be recruiting like Shanan, Aless, Arthur, Leaf, Sety, etc. In the Second Generation, "kills everything" is nowhere near as impressive as it was in the First Generation, and "never dies" is a much higher bar that is only really reached by characters who aren't Celice (except when he has the Tyrfing, anyway). That's not to say Celice is likely to die, with his beefy 45% DEF and 30% RES growths (30% RES is a shitton in FE4, especially for melee units and people not fathered by Claude) and 140% HP. However, there's things he's not as suited to fight as Shanan or Aless or your Holsety wielder. Those guys are clearing the way for him, he's just tough enough to ensure their efforts aren't wasted. Granted, he can become incredible in very short order, and the more resources he's given the faster he hits that point. You need him to seize, so it becomes readily apparent that he's worth the resources. So yeah, he gets favored... and that's usually okay. Maybe not "solo Chapter 6" favored, but hell, it does work. That said, the fact that he doesn't start with a horse and his perpetual swordlock and late Holy Weapon are hurtful things. It's just that, well, screw it: he'll get a horse soon enough, and the swords he's "stuck" with are only the Sigurd Sword, Hero Sword, and God knows what else, so who gives a crap? But I have to think that needing that favoritism can suck at times, even if he obviously yields lower turncounts if you do it. Not everybody plays for turncounts, after all, in which case Celice doesn't hit his stride quite as fast as he could. It's still a good idea, but you have to be mindful of what it cost you. In his generation, Sigurd needed nothing more than the Silver Sword Alvis shoved into his hands. Celice wants that... and the Leg Ring, and the Elite Ring, and any stat boosting rings you can spare, and as many kills as you can permit him in Chapter 6, and... so on and so on. The fact that he's worth it doesn't change that a 10/10 character shouldn't need it. Sigurd didn't and Celice does, ergo Celice can't rank as highly. Factor in the competition being stiffer and the enemies being tougher, and he's just not as good as his dad, even if he eventually matures into Sigurd++. I'm going to go with 9/10. There are just some characters that I feel deserve better than Celice, and I need to leave scoring room for them. Edited March 6, 2012 by Renall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Sigurd but with a slightly slower start. He has a bad habit of getting speed screwed but he's still the man. 9.5/10 I'll second this for my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 I think we should split this into 1st and 2nd generation lists. The units are all basically mutually exclusive and never exist at the same time so it doesn't make much sense to me to try and compare, say Beowulf to Johan, to me. First and Second generations are almost like 2 different games. I'll separate the lists, then. I'm going to keep the First Generation List as reference, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'll separate the lists, then. I'm going to keep the First Generation List as reference, however. I think it's viable in terms of a relative comparison. Like, there's no point comparing Lester to Midir in terms of "who's better?" because Lester is 90% of the time going to be better than Midir is no matter what. But that doesn't necessarily mean Lester outscores Midir; it depends on who is, relatively speaking, the better character in their generation. Lester is generally accepted to be more useful than Midir in most circumstances, primarily due to bow inheritance. However, "is better than Midir" may or may not get him the same score as Midir did, because in the First Generation a lot of people were pretty bad. That was my justification for Celice, anyway; there's little question that Celice is a better unit both in potential and in actuality than Sigurd (better growths, better inheritance, access to more and better items from the start), but that doesn't make him an 11/10 automatically just because Sigurd was 10/10. Sigurd was a slightly worse unit in a vastly worse generation. Celice is a slightly better unit in a vastly better generation. Things change a bit when "only Sigurd, Cuan, and Lex can kill these guys quickly" shifts to "pretty much anybody is going to one-round these guys, and practically anybody who can ride a horse is a combat god." To say nothing of the much harder boss characters in Gen Two, many of whom are not Celice's best match the way the few in Gen One often were for Sigurd. But obviously if I think that, say, Oifaye is an average character for the generation, I'll want to reference the Gen One list for characters I considered to be "average" then and rate Oifaye along similar lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esaka Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 8.5/10 He's good, like real good. -1 point because he looks too generic for me, plus he's kinda a pansy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Needs Elite and Leg to become Sigurd but otherwise really good and he pretty much owns these rings in efficient play except maybe Leg to Layleen at times or something 9/10. -1 from Sigurd's score due to needing resources to achieve what Sigurd did without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 9.9/10 The only reason Celice won't solo Ch6, is if you're chilling and taking it slow. There's still more than enough XP for ranking all the rest of your characters in the rest of gen 2, so that can't rightly be held against him. Still, he does need resources, despite using them very very well. Sigurd earned everything he needed himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'll second this for my vote. 3rd this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Sage Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 9/10 needs resources, but once he promotes hes just like sigurd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 And to kick off the Second Generation, Celice gets 9.54. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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