Which dragon?

[Nanami Touko]

look through the gamefaqs and that will become pretty clear .

And suddenly no one cares about your opinion any more.

[uguu]

Now you insult my intelligence . I've have lite never had my comprehension insulted in my entire life until for some reason I signed up for this stupid board filled with pretentious dicks .I'm not even exaggerating the only times in my entire life once recently in an fe4 debate where I immediately was wrong and this topic. Oh and elison maybe you don't remember but I read pretty far back in the forum. you have been told on a few occasions that your spelling sucked . Auto corrects a bitch it can really morph what yourre trying to say .Obviously you've gotten better but im still not use to the cramp keyboard . And you're one to talk about spelling errors and reading skills R1you still dont seem to understand the main idea of my first post , and I counted a few spelling/ grammar errors in you're own post . You hypocrite. Also generally my opinion is shared by most casuals look through the gamefaqs and that will become pretty clear .

What did I not answer? Also, I don't know what spelling errors you're talking about except the two clearly misspelled words which I took from one of your posts as parody, but yes my grammar is kind of a mess because I try to simultaneously be a super wordy smug elitist etc (and fail) while also trying to compress what I say. The difference is that my posts are legitimately legible. Additionally, I specified spelling, because that was what is horrid about your posts.

Hmm it seems this community can't understand what a casual describes as a good unit :(.. you guys just don't seem to understand we really don't care how much effort it takes as long as the unit turns out good at the end.

I answered this.

"Also, no Purple Knight, Est characters are not sby deffention kickass, trained up or otherwise. Or, at least, they aren't relative to most other people. There is a huge list of units you could use and they would be exactly as effective as Est and Tiki, specifically, at 20/20 even."

I wasted 60,000 gold, 4 seraph robes and a growth potion training up est and tiki in hardmode in fe12 and i don't regret at all. I dont care if they didn't really contirbute to the team until about chapter 20 it was fun to train them up . You guys obviuosly ether can't comprehend or don't accept the casual playstyle and that's fine.It's just all of you are kinda kinda beating a dead horse youll have as much sucess convincing a "casual" like myself to stop screwing around with est as a casual has trying to conivnce one of you efficency junkies to stop wrecking house with seth or titania . Its not gonna happen .

Answered.

"Really, no one is telling you to stop using bad characters that you like, they're saying to stop saying that they're good when they aren't and yelling at people for "SUPPRESSING MY CHOICE OF UNIT SELECTION WAAAAAAH" or whatever it is you're doing when they just say that you're wrong, which I think is a whole lot more reasonable."

why can't we all agree to disagree because i'm sick of seeing the same disscusion happen in practically any topic thats longer then two pages.

Answered above, but I'm just going to point out that you're the one who's refusing to agree to disagree. You refuse to accept the existence of objectivity, and refuse to simply leave it at disagreeing on who we like to use.

[Parrhesia]

The tier players... they wish to... CONSUME ME!

You know, needling you would be fun if you weren't taking this so seriously. It's kinda sad by this point. Oh, well.

When you say Est is a good unit you are objectively wrong, except by standards that do not make any sense whatsoever. (Or, I guess, Wi-Fi, but w/e) You cannot rank units otherwise. You can use them, sure. You can enjoy using them. I like seeing green numbers, too. I first saw them on a 16/16 Hero Gerik. I saw them on Gerik because he was busy KILLING EVERYONE while Amelia and Ewan were dropped for FAILING at LIFE. (Interesting sidenote: 20/20 Amelia doesn't really have any notable advantages over anyone else. Including Seth, who has incredibly good growths.)

And by the fucking by you still haven't explained who made you spokesman of the casuals. A few outdated character reviews on GameFAQs has somehow convinced you that Nino > Marcus is anything more than a paedophile's wet dream. Use who you want, but don't feed me this line of bullshit calling it a cold, logical choice. And don't pretend that it's natural for a first time player's first thought to be "I SHALL DITCH ALL THE STRONG PEOPLE AND INSTEAD USE ALL THESE SHITTY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY MIGHT GET BETTER LEVELS." Because, you know, growths are hidden. Bases aren't. Results aren't, either, and bases will always get results.

Why are there underscores in your display name?

[The_Purple_Knight]

You still don't get and I'm not explaining it . I enjoy you're sarcasm though Im also a fan of dry humor . You're right though I am being a hypocrite so I'm done . Namaste..

[Parrhesia]

NAMASTE TO YOU AS WELL STRANGE MAN

psst someone what the fuck does that mean

I HAVE DISCOVERED WHAT NAMASTE MEANS

it is very long

Edited March 18, 2012 by Furetchen

[uguu]

NAMASTE TO YOU AS WELL STRANGE MAN

psst someone what the fuck does that mean

Namaste (English: /ˈnɑːməsteɪ/ NAH-məs-tay; Devanagari: नमस्ते; formal: Namaskar/Namaskaram) is a common spoken valediction or salutation originating from the Indian subcontinent. It is a customary greeting when individuals meet, and a valediction upon their parting. A non-contact form of salutation is traditionally preferred in India and Namaste is the most common form of such a salutation. In Nepal, younger persons usually initiate the exchange with their elders. Initiating the exchange is seen as a sign of respect in other hierarchical settings.

When spoken to another person, it is commonly accompanied by a slight bow made with hands pressed together, palms touching and fingers pointed upwards, in front of the chest. This gesture, called,[1] Añjali Mudrā or Pranamasana, can also be performed wordlessly and carries the same meaning.

Where is my bow, Purple Knight?

[The_Purple_Knight]

Bow... but take note ,R-1 X Valhawk while irrationality exists in men's hearts .... I will return ! You've been warned ! Gaaahhh... *rumble* *rumble* *flap of wings * VICTORY MUSIC!! Duh-duh-da-da-duh-da-duh

[General Horace]

Why are there underscores in your display name?

hey hey hey underscores are legit

only because i had one when i first came here

and who cares if he thinks ests are better really, he's the one that's at a loss.

[Othin]

You two seem to be confusing the difference between "I like to use x unit" and "x unit is good".

You like to use those characters? That's great; have all the fun you want with them. There is much fun to be had with using ineffective characters. But that doesn't change the fact that they are ineffective.

[Integrity]

You two seem to be confusing the difference between "I like to use x unit" and "x unit is good".

You like to use those characters? That's great; have all the fun you want with them. There is much fun to be had with using ineffective characters. But that doesn't change the fact that they are ineffective.

Goddammit, Othin. I was going to post that just now.

Case in point: I like to use Neimi. Put that one together.

[MacLovin]

If your units are already awesome when Tiki appears, then there is no point working on them so you can train Tiki a lot to be even more awesome.

Even if you don't arena abuse, you're units should be strong by the time you get her. If you don't want to train her, then don't train her, but she is a very fun unit to use.

Training a lvl 1 unit with mediocre bases is not my idea of fun.

Fa and Myyrh weren't fun to use IMO.

also, try having something to back your statements-other than personal experience.

Since PEMN.

[Integrity]

Training a lvl 1 unit with mediocre bases is not my idea of fun.

Fa and Myyrh weren't fun to use IMO.

also, try having something to back your statements-other than personal experience.

Since PEMN.

Uh, except Myrrh does a metric shit-ton of damage thanks to effective MT, does a regular old Imperial shit-ton of damage to humans (the dragonstone is +12 str and 16 mt), is actually pretty durable, levels like a truck (and actually does something with those levels unlike Tiki), flies, and is all-around pretty useful?

EDIT: AND Myrrh comes at a part of the game where a whole lot of enemies are *not* between you and the objective (16, 17, arguably 19) or are routs (18) making her absolutely trivial to train while maintaining any level of efficiency you want to.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Integrity

[MacLovin]

Uh, except Myrrh does a metric shit-ton of damage thanks to effective MT, does a regular old Imperial shit-ton of damage to humans (the dragonstone is +12 str and 16 mt), is actually pretty durable, levels like a truck (and actually does something with those levels unlike Tiki), flies, and is all-around pretty useful?

EDIT: AND Myrrh comes at a part of the game where a whole lot of enemies are *not* between you and the objective (16, 17, arguably 19) or are routs (18) making her absolutely trivial to train while maintaining any level of efficiency you want to.

I'm going under my rock now, just put those other guys in a hole after you're done repeatedly shooting them.

Yeah, but dragonstone is limited, and I always seem to run out when I need her the most.

And, she has to kill promoted enemies to lvl up, I believe

[Darros]

That would be personal experience speaking, Harpoon. Myrrhs dragonstone can easily last her until the end of the game (she'll reach max level before it breaks). And IIRC she gets shittons of EXP from pretty much everything she kills when she joins.

Anywhoo, I'll cease the offtopic discussion now.

[rexcalibur]

The argument was pointless. Some people believed Tiki was bad and could not be conviced. Others believed she was good and could not be convinced.

It really depends on the difficulty and playthrough style.

[Just call me AL]

The argument was pointless. Some people believed Tiki was bad and could not be conviced. Others believed she was good and could not be convinced. It really depends on the difficulty and playthrough style.

Most of the forum's most frequent members = some people, and one member = some people now?

You can't really discuss "good" with no context. And contexts such as 20/20 stats and personal experience have so many blurred lines that discussing "good" under those contexts would be virtually meaningless. Basing a unit's performance under low turn playthroughs on the other hand, has no blurred lines. Especially since a unit's statistics, availability, and effectiveness per chapter can all be broken down to determine a unit's usefulness for the whole game, and by extension, how good a unit is overall. (The more useful a unit is, the better a unit is.) It's not the final destination that counts, it's the journey along the way. You like using Tiki? Go ahead and use her. No one's forcing you to do otherwise. Just keep in mind that her join time and her base stats are what makes her bad in the first place, seeing as she's nigh unsalvageable without excessive babying.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Little Al

[Othin]

LTC is just one of many ways to set a clear standard. No need to ignore the rest.

[rexcalibur]

Most of the forum's most frequent members = some people, and one member = some people now?

You can't really discuss "good" with no context. And contexts such as 20/20 stats and personal experience have so many blurred lines that discussing "good" under those contexts would be virtually meaningless. Basing a unit's performance under low turn playthroughs on the other hand, has no blurred lines. Especially since a unit's statistics, availability, and effectiveness per chapter can all be broken down to determine a unit's usefulness for the whole game, and by extension, how good a unit is overall. (The more useful a unit is, the better a unit is.) It's not the final destination that counts, it's the journey along the way. You like using Tiki? Go ahead and use her. No one's forcing you to do otherwise. Just keep in mind that her join time and her base stats are what makes her bad in the first place, seeing as she's nigh unsalvageable without excessive babying.

I was talking about fire emblem fans in general and you can't convince me that she is bad.

[Just call me AL]

LTC is just one of many ways to set a clear standard. No need to ignore the rest.

But how many other ways are there? The only ones I can think of where "Your Milage May Vary" doesn't have much influence if any influence at all anywhere are in-game ranks which FEs 4-7 and FE12 all have, and max BEXP which FEs 9 & 10 have. In the case of the former, there's the matter of not selling many items to contribute towards the funds rank, and there's the EXP rank which kinda makes you use non-promoted units more often, no matter how good or bad they are objectively. Both are seen as kinda hindering, generally. And the latter basically almost overlaps with LTC. The rest of the FEs don't have stuff like that last I checked.

I was talking about Fire Emblem fans in general and you can't convince me that she is bad.

We're not forcing playstyles here though. Just trying to correct objectively wrong assertions. If a unit's useful, that unit is good. If a unit is useless, that unit is bad. I don't see what's hard to understand about that. Playstyles don't mean a thing when it comes to that. We've already explained why she's not particularly useful many times. If that isn't enough, then I don't know what to tell you. I could suggest looking at a certain thread on here, but I don't know how useful you'd find the information on it, and I don't think that this topic is the place for suggesting such threads in the first place.

[Othin]

But how many other ways are there? The only ones I can think of where "Your Milage May Vary" doesn't have much influence if any influence at all anywhere are in-game ranks which FEs 4-7 and FE12 all have, and max BEXP which FEs 9 & 10 have. In the case of the former, there's the matter of not selling many items to contribute towards the funds rank, and there's the EXP rank which kinda makes you use non-promoted units more often, no matter how good or bad they are objectively. Both are seen as kinda hindering, generally. And the latter basically almost overlaps with LTC. The rest of the FEs don't have stuff like that last I checked.

The bolded aren't issues. If a character is good for the Exp rank because of being low leveled, then if ranks are being considered, they are objectively good.

Now, those are just more examples of the unlimited number of concrete rankings. Just as LTC is often applied to games without a Tactics ranking, those rankings can be applied to games without rankings. And they don't necessarily need to be the rankings the way the games rate them, either. For example, if funds acquired is preferred, one could go with that. Resets could be another interesting thing to rank.

We can also come up with ways to consider the value of one rank with regard to another. So for an overall score, we could do something like this:

1. Take the final turn count

2. For every reset, add 10

3. For every character dead or not recruited, add 4 (barring Harken/Karel situations)

4. For every 1,000 gold saved up at the end, subtract 1

5. Goal is to get the lowest score

It should be feasible to apply this to any FE game except FE2 and FE4, although some of the numbers might need to be calibrated for different games. This seems like it should offer a simple enough way to measure things just as objectively as LTC, while quantifying the value of reliability and adding more secondary objectives to focus on to help keep the game from stagnating.

[arvilino]

Rule 2 might be a bit bad for some of them. If you're playing FE7 you can encounter character death and insta-reset penalties you have no control over, such as NPC Jaffar or Wallace placing themselves in instant death situations(as well as Jaffar's death losing you out a gaiden chapter with alot of gold), or Pent getting killed by Wyverns Riders on turn 1 on the desert chapter giving you an auto reset.

[Othin]

Well, those could be addressed by additional rules, I'm sure, perhaps pertaining specifically to those chapters.

[Dark Sage]

aren't characters usually ranked assuming no to minimum restarts anyway?

Edited March 18, 2012 by Dark Sage

[Othin]

aren't characters usually ranked assuming no to minimum restarts anyway?

I don't keep up with most rankings here, but it's my understanding that they don't have a quantified penalty for those resets, and I know most of them lack the secondary recruitment and funds objectives that could get messed up by having optional characters die.

However, for tier lists rather than actual competitions, it seems to me that there wouldn't be any real impact from considering unavoidable resets regardless, if they wouldn't affect strategy.

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, a lot of them want to go with what could be called E(X) = expected number of turns for a given strategy. For example, if a strategy takes 2 turns and has a 50% chance of working, there is a 50% chance of taking 2 turns, a 25% chance of taking 4 turns, a 12.5% chance of taking 6 turns, a 6.25% chance of taking 8 turns, etc etc which comes out to an expected value of 4 turns. Also turns/probability of it working. This is further complicated by strategies which, on a failure, result in merely +1 turn instead of death followed by a reset. It is also complicated by strategies which may fail before the last turn, like a 3 turn that can fail on turn 2. However, if you had enough math skills (and time) you could actually calculate the expected number of turns for any strategy.

As I said in another topic, however, I don't like it because it assigns no penalty to a reset, as if there is no additional cost to going through all that reloading stuff aside from just the turns spent before reloading. However, I think a 10 turn penalty per reset (minus the number of turns spent getting to the reset, as your formula doesn't include failed turns) is a little much since most chapters in many of these games can be done in 6 turns reliably, making a minimum penalty of 4 turns and a widely varied penalty per reset in reality.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Narga_Rocks