Rate the Units, FE9 Edition: Endgame

[ZemZem]

Snowy. Really.

Astrid > Titania? Ilyana > Reyson? That's just...

[Sunwoo]

There is a LOT of crying in FE9's RTU specifically, more so than the others I think. I have to wonder why.

Also, Orange, this might be a lot of extra work for you (and I'll help), but we should add in an unbiased tally list as well so that people can STOP CRYING already.

[ZemZem]

Righto. I shall begin that tomorrow. We already have a few scores, so that's good progress.

[Sunwoo]

Since retallying all the scores is a hassle, how about this: I'll tally everyone who scored below a 5, and you tally everyone above that?

[Snowy_One]

I've never valued dancers all that highly. As I said in the topic, if it were completely up to me, Reyson would have gotten something like a 4/10, but I realize that he has uses that I simply do not value, so I gave him a 7.

Also, Titania is just another paladin and ends up being kinda meh later on. Since I don't usually play for turncounts her early game is worth less and I'm willing to put the extra time and effort into raising Oscar and the other units in the early game rather than using Titania to blast through the levels. Besides, look who I did put over her. Rhys aside (who I admitted I really overrated) all are good units and only Astrid is questionable and most are within one point of her.

[ZemZem]

Alright. Just PM me what you got and I'll put them all up in a new list.

[Sunwoo]

I've never valued dancers all that highly. As I said in the topic, if it were completely up to me, Reyson would have gotten something like a 4/10, but I realize that he has uses that I simply do not value, so I gave him a 7.

Also, Titania is just another paladin and ends up being kinda meh later on. Since I don't usually play for turncounts her early game is worth less and I'm willing to put the extra time and effort into raising Oscar and the other units in the early game rather than using Titania to blast through the levels. Besides, look who I did put over her. Rhys aside (who I admitted I really overrated) all are good units and only Astrid is questionable and most are within one point of her.

Snowy, I know it's difficult to rate according to other people's play styles. I don't play for efficiency or LTC either. I use Rhys and Ilyana and rig level-ups on random mode. I give Tormod massive amounts of favoritism. I rarely use Titania. The problem is, where does it end? There has to be some sort of a standard.

Even if I never use Titania, I acknowledge that she could easily wipe out earlygame if she wanted to. That she requires little resources in comparison to other units that must be raised. That while she does eventually slow, that her stats aren't still terrible and still endgame material (even if not as much as the other paladins).

And as such, I admit that as much as I like using Rhys and Ilyana, on average their growths and/or bases are lacking in certain areas so that they aren't "good". That they do require resources.

And Reyson is helpful not only because he lets you go faster, but because he lets 1-4 characters get another turn to do something. Have a boss who has a good chance to kill you on the counter? Need just - one - more person to hit him before he dies? All characters have already moved? Reyson hasn't? Reyson refresh, kill boss, save possible loss of character.

I know that there is no problem on rating units based on your personal play style. But you cannot JUST ignore everyone else's either. And you have to take into account what certain characters can and cannot do, even if you never use them.

[Lord Raven]

I've never valued dancers all that highly. As I said in the topic, if it were completely up to me, Reyson would have gotten something like a 4/10, but I realize that he has uses that I simply do not value, so I gave him a 7.

Also, Titania is just another paladin and ends up being kinda meh later on. Since I don't usually play for turncounts her early game is worth less and I'm willing to put the extra time and effort into raising Oscar and the other units in the early game rather than using Titania to blast through the levels. Besides, look who I did put over her. Rhys aside (who I admitted I really overrated) all are good units and only Astrid is questionable and most are within one point of her.

she's not "meh" later on, she's just not outstand, which is true of every unit that doesnt fly

shut up snowy

[Refa]

she's not "meh" later on, she's just not outstand, which is true of every unit that doesnt fly

shut up snowy

apparently not being as good as the best endgame combat units = meh

yeah i don't get it either

[Shadow Mir]

*sigh* I'm getting the feeling trying to reason with Snowy is like trying to break a brick wall by ramming it - just a waste of time and energy.

[Snowy_One]

Snowy, I know it's difficult to rate according to other people's play styles. I don't play for efficiency or LTC either. I use Rhys and Ilyana and rig level-ups on random mode. I give Tormod massive amounts of favoritism. I rarely use Titania. The problem is, where does it end? There has to be some sort of a standard.

I know that. However, no matter how much people debate on the tier lists, at the end of the day you have to go out and play the game, figure out how you value each and every other character, and develop your own opinions as to who is good and bad. The tier lists are a guide, but they are not the game. They can enlighten a person to a new way to play, show them a way a character could be used that could never be thought of, or encourage you to try something you never attempted before, but at the end of the day, you still need to play the game. I learned that when I started raiding in WoW. For all the formula, theory, and strategy the guides gave me, when you actually played the game things can easily turn out wildly different.

PEMN but PEME as well.

Even if I never use Titania, I acknowledge that she could easily wipe out earlygame if she wanted to. That she requires little resources in comparison to other units that must be raised. That while she does eventually slow, that her stats aren't still terrible and still endgame material (even if not as much as the other paladins).

Look at it this way. I don't consider Titania terribly impressive in the endgame. Maybe she gets chronically screwed with me, maybe I care more about nifty tricks and power-skill-setups, maybe I value support more than I value her movement... I still gave her a very high score which only a few units beat of which all (except for one I admitted I overrated) were ranked very highly.

And Reyson is helpful not only because he lets you go faster, but because he lets 1-4 characters get another turn to do something. Have a boss who has a good chance to kill you on the counter? Need just - one - more person to hit him before he dies? All characters have already moved? Reyson hasn't? Reyson refresh, kill boss, save possible loss of character.

And all I had to do was give up a character slot for Reyson that could have gone to another unit so that I can save one turn while fighting one enemy on the map! Yay!

I know that there is no problem on rating units based on your personal play style. But you cannot JUST ignore everyone else's either. And you have to take into account what certain characters can and cannot do, even if you never use them.

As I said, I DID take it into account. That's why I gave him a 7 instead of a 4. In my own experience I have almost never seen a situation arise that wasn't artificially made where Reyson could refresh three or more units which would have any significant impact on the map. I know some people play for low turn counts and he's probably amazing there, but I don't. Using anything LTC related is utterly meaningless to me.

[Samias]

I dunno. I mean, Tethys in Sacred Stones is one of the more underwhelming refreshers in the series and yet dancers allow you to pull off rescue drop strategies that could never be accomplished with any other unit. Refreshers complete rescue chains and get a character in danger out of danger in a way no other unit can. A 7 isn't totally unreasonable if for some reason a dancer seems unnecessary, like in the case of Sacred Seth, but Reyson ignores terrain and has great refresh capabilities after he transforms. I personally can't see him as less than an 8 for the amazing utility only he can provide. If a dancer like Lalum or Tethys or Ninian is high, Reyson clearly stands out as exceptional.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Samias

[Snowy_One]

Remember, I don't value rescue-drop strategies and try to avoid putting a character into danger in the first place (I'm in no rush after all).

[Colonel M]

Snowy plays for turtle-counts, not turn-counts.

Even ignoring Rescue chain strategies, Reyson does something no other combat unit can do - it can allow your best combatant to move twice and further ahead. That alone is worth more than a 4.

[Hawk King]

Reyson can also allow Mia, Rhys, Illyana, and Lucia to have 2 actions in a single turn!

Snowy would care about this much more since his best combat units sit on the bench...

[Snowy_One]

Sure, he can refresh my best combat unit, but he may also end up with no one to refresh that has any major value or significance (like a foot unit in an area already cleared of enemies) and I could still deploy a unit with actual combat skills instead of Reyson. Plus, since I can't control his shifting really, I can't say with any degree of certainty that his shifting will do too much. I have never liked dancers. Reyson is slightly better, but I would still rather have another combat unit over a dancer. I know other people like dancers, but I do not. I boosted his score because I know other people value him more than me.

[Lord Raven]

or you could use this feature called the "rescue" command that allows you to transport reyson more spaces with a mounted unit

trust me, its worth it

[Snowy_One]

So in order to make him usable and 'good' I have to assign a unit to constantly rescue and drop him just so that he can be used for what he's supposed to do in the first place? That doesn't strike me as good at all.

[BBM]

So in order to make Mia usable and 'good' I have to assign a unit to constantly stand around her and give support bonuses so that she can be used for what she's supposed to do in the first place? That doesn't strike me as good at all.

See how easily I did that? If Reyson + ferrybot are better than the two characters who would otherwise be the worst on the team, it's entirely justified to assign him a ferrybot.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Calill>Soren is funny, and so is Rhy/Geoffrey>Soren.

Funny and sad at the same time. Like some sort of tragically ludicrous thing. Like a clown dying.

On that note, Calill > Soren doesn't really surprise me, but Rhys and Geoff > Soren do. At any rate, it's as you said; Soren got hammered by a lot of negative bias.

It surprises me because despite Calill's better weapon ranks, she cant use staves and that kinda hurts. The only thing shes got on Soren are her base strength and weapon ranks. The rest? Nah man..just nah. And you guys REALLY hate Soren for some reason. Yeah he may be my second favorite character in the entire series, but i do acknowledge the fact his weapon ranks kinda smell and his strength is really low. But he can use siege tomes eventually. (my last normal mode run...he was able to use all of the siege tomes. Even Meteor. And doubled with them despite having a strength stat of like...5...)

I find it easy to just recalculate everything. Also, Snowy also put Mia above Reyson.

lol!! just...lol!!! Sorry Snowy but fuckin' lol!

[PKL]

Mia is really good. I once made her a frontliner and she died. So good, man! Totally better than invinci-tits. Oh and dat rhys. He totally deserves top of top tier. I mean, he doesnt need stats to heal! And is invincible because he always stays behind the amazing mia and never gets attacked!

[Lord Raven]

So in order to make him usable and 'good' I have to assign a unit to constantly rescue and drop him just so that he can be used for what he's supposed to do in the first place? That doesn't strike me as good at all.

so what you are saying is that you lack critical thinking skills

so what you do is you use your four units to do whatever you need them to do. Reyson swoops in and refreshes them and voila, you get 6 moves out of 4 units per turn as opposed to 4 moves out of 4 units.

im sorry i wasnt aware this wasn't good i'll just go crawl back into my hole where i use titania and reyson and give boots to marcia

[Snowy_One]

Flaw. Reyson does not refresh four units anywhere. He refreshes all units immediately adjacent to him while he is shifted. In order for it to be four units two criteria have to be met.

1) Reyson must be shifted.

2) There must be four units who have exhausted themselves positioned in such a way that there is a empty space between them while Reyson is in range.

When we factor in that 1) not all units have canto and 2) not all units will be in the same area of the map this means that I have to effectively have just below half the team (assuming a team of 12) around. Since Reyson starts unshifted and will not be entering into battle due to frailty/lack of counters this means that for the first 5 turns of a map he MUST be unshifted. This means that he can refresh only 1 unit per turn for his first 5 turns.

I don't know what the turn goals for a LTC clear is, but assuming you can clear the map, on average, in about 9 turns he will have only 4 turns shifted. Assuming he refreshes four units every turn while shifted that works out to 2.3333 units refreshed on average at best. If we assume that, on those four turns, he refreshed 1, 2, 3, and 4 units instead of a unanimous 4 that means he refreshed 1.666 units every turn average. Even assuming he refreshed an average of three units every turn while shifted that's only 1.8888 units average.

Reyson is NOT that good when not specifically setting up scenarios for him to shine in. It's as simple as that. And yes, the gems help, but all they do is turn it from a 5/4 to a 3/6 for four chapters (once again, assuming an average of 9 turns per chapter).

[Sunwoo]

For fucking sake, why are we even arguing about this? Who cares what order the units ended up? Does FE9: RTU change how you feel about a certain character. Why should it - bother - you that certain people value a character more than you think s/he deserves? This RTU shouldn't change the way you play or see a character. So stop arguing about it already. This is pointless, all right? So seriously, get a life, all of you who are crying about this.

[Lord Raven]

ever heard of laguz stones

i know there are only 4, but that is plenty of maps for him to be incredibly useful

as for the rest i'm not actually reading much of your argument anymore