Super Smash Bros Universe Mafia

[Shinori]

Whatever Xbox is turned off let me go read stuff.

[BBM]

Except if the player admits that they are simply trying to elicit a reaction, they are much less likely to elicit that reaction. Look at Blitz. He was just like lol ok whatevs because everyone harping on Marth about his vote made people say that he was reactionfishing. Now, Blitz might have said that either way, but still.

ATM, I am finding Manix/Shinori kinda scummy. For sheeping on the Marth wagon and just overall having bad reasoning there. The whole thing about how Marth saying he was going to keep his reason to himself meant that he was trying to withhold info just didn't make sense. It's highly unlikely his role PM tells him anything about Blitz and if it did, why should he say it anyways? You are withholding info from the town by not telling everyone your role, but that doesn't mean you should do it either. And if it's unlikely that his role PM says anything about it, the other option is that he is reactionfishing, in which case by getting on his case about it and making him explain, you are hindering his effort.

[Grace]

ATM, I am finding Manix/Shinori kinda scummy. For sheeping on the Marth wagon and just overall having bad reasoning there. The whole thing about how Marth saying he was going to keep his reason to himself meant that he was trying to withhold info just didn't make sense. It's highly unlikely his role PM tells him anything about Blitz and if it did, why should he say it anyways? You are withholding info from the town by not telling everyone your role, but that doesn't mean you should do it either. And if it's unlikely that his role PM says anything about it, the other option is that he is reactionfishing, in which case by getting on his case about it and making him explain, you are hindering his effort.

Okay, let's make it clear why I was on there: Marth said something that was in the thread that made Blitz look scummy. He didn't elaborate, and my vote was there because I wanted him to. And now considering that he won't elaborate, there's not really much point in leaving a vote there, right?

@bolded: Apples and Oranges. You're trying to make a comparison between two things that are not linked in any way. While the statement is true, and you shouldn't be waving your role everywhere, it's not the same as something that is clearly in the thread that everyone can see.

[eclipse]

I have come to the conclusion that I'm gonna ask Kaoz to go over to Marth's house and smack him upside the head if he is town. I'm not happy with Marth and his blatant "well get at me" attitude, but I'm far more unhappy with the sheer number of votes he managed to accrue. While that storm was going on, I don't have much to say 'bout Iris/Subieko. I can't tell if that's Iris picking up on something, or two scumbuddies halfheartedly preparing a bus. What caught my attention was the following:

Excellen, RVS doesn't happen for the entirety of D1. Eventually, people begin consolidating on targets by the end of D1, based on what is determined through the RVS.

I still wonder how the heck we're meant to even get anywhere without anything to discuss. I'd like to see you propose some other method, to be honest, if you think RVS is a stupid thing to do.

Also remember that we didn't get a N0 for investigative roles to do anything.

Face facts, town is likely to mislynch D1, and that's just a fact of the D1 start. You can't seriously expect to lynch maf D1, it's just unlikely.

The point of the game is to try to NOT mislynch, and trying to tell the game that they're gonna mislynch is weird.

It's a logistical point. Given what little information we have (ie, none), and the fact that there are more town than scum, means it is likely to be a mislynch. Likely is the key word, and I never said it's impossible to lynch maf D1.

Also, I don't like how abrasive you're being already. It's making me concerned.

Who died and put you in charge of today's lynch?

Okay, so in my absence (had to clean up a lot of stuff, long story), I got to thinking. As much as I don't like what Marth did, the defeatist attitude is kinda telling me that he's just probably town who made a mistake, and it's drawing us away from the real scum. Particularly if he's anything like me (which it does seem that way). Hmmm.

##Unvote for now. Next on my list was SB, so: ##Vote: SB for stuff I said earlier (ie; jumping to conclusions far too quickly).

I hear an echo in the room. I'd prefer if Bananas would get in here and explain why the HELL numbers are so damn important when the game's less than 24 hours in, but this vote seems opportunistic.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

[Shinori]

I see. But consider this: if both Marth and Blitz were scum, why would Marth make such a commotion by voting for Blitz? Drawing a ton of attention himself and a scumbuddy early D1 seems way too risky to me. I'd also like to know why you're not voting for either of them, given that you're suspicious of both (unless you voted somewhere and I missed it).

What if this were plausible as a way for mafia to get town to start infighting. Have one scum say something about random person or another scum for the heck of it, get some scum to throw a few votes on him let the wagon start a bit and then put pressure on the slowest person to join on the wagon? Also marth stated in one of his posts:

Why should town lie this early then? Also 'faking suspicion' can be a cloak for the mafia too. You can 'fake it' then say you were just playing around, and we're all just in more confusion because, you know, that's an easy way to get by. Hell mafia could get away with it.

Which means he is stating that he does have some sort of way of having information that we aren't privy too. <----this is in regards to this

SB, you asked if Marth has some info about Blitz that the rest of us don't. Consider that this is a day start with no outside contact. Unless Marth's role PM told him that Blitz was so-and-so (highly unlikely), he has no way of knowing anything more about Blitz than other people.

Marth basically stated that he did have info on blitz that we don't have. Either that or he was reaction testing and lied about it thus contradicting himself when he said "WHY SHOULD TOWN LIE THIS EARLY THEN?"

He clearly didn't have anything extra. He was trying to get a reaction from Blitz. But it was a dumb way to do it, because everybody is so suspicious of him now that a theoretical scum!Blitz could easily deflect any suspicion on him to Marth.

Theoretical scum!Blitz didn't do much in the one game he was scum in, he was very inactive and didn't play his normal meta at all. Also I refer you once again to what marth stated. It's either he told the truth and he has some sort of info we aren't privy too or he lied, thus contradicting himself from what he stated above and refused to say it was a reaction test, this far into the day phase. Or he's just scum. But I mean, whatever, we don't like to pressure people for doing dumb stuff here.

I still think Marth is Town playing poorly

Probable, most likely, follows meta, but then again if you look at meta I'm known as Scumnori and if I lead something the opposite side always wins, oh and third parties.

I really don't think Marth's vote was based on some kind of private info; as you've pointed out it's unlikely he would have any as Town (only scenario I see is if his role PM said something and that doesn't seem likely), and if he was scum why would he admit to having private info? I assumed he was trying some gambit or something that didn't work. The vote was bad, yeah, but it seems like bad Town play rather than scum play.

Not gonna answer the first part, already have a few times, if he's scum it could be to start in-town fighting easily, which is a gambit.

At this point I think Marth and the wagon on him are likely to be D1 Town infighting, and scum is likely to be avoiding it and thus flying under the radar more. I would like him to post some response to all the discussion about him though.

Wait that's what I said.

Marth's vote was probably a pressure vote. Still, he went about it the wrong way, which is why everyone got on top of him like they did.

Then why didn't he answer this post with the answer of it being for a reaction:

Guys, stop voting for Marth. It's obviously a reaction test, and he obviously doesn't want to say so because what good would a reaction test do if you announced it? Marth, give it up and admit it, poking at Blitzy isn't worth getting lynched over.

Note this, Kay was the first person to start getting attention off of marth and towards me, the slow person, for his scummy action. Once you get a reaction, you tell them after some time that it was a reaction test and you get on with the info you received from said test.

Now to end my post at reference to Kay. ##Vote: Kay

Let's start off, five posts, okay not to bad, assuming they are good quality, quality over quantity as always.

However let's check these posts:

Maybe it would be better not to say where we'll be going, so the mafia can't go to a stage to kill someone in particular?

Mostly it was just taking advantage of the Spear Pillar rule, and there was the one insta-kill, but IIRC that was it.

Any other opinions, Shinori? Or are you just showing up to jump on an easy bandwagon?

Guys, stop voting for Marth. It's obviously a reaction test, and he obviously doesn't want to say so because what good would a reaction test do if you announced it? Marth, give it up and admit it, poking at Blitzy isn't worth getting lynched over.

He never said he wasn't using logic and reasoning. He's just not telling you what it is.

If there's a huge scumtell, it's clearly not that obvious, since no one else mentioned it. If you think there's a scumtell, point it out. How do you expect to lynch scum if you keep this stuff to yourself? I think asking if something is a good idea in that way is a bit scummy, but that's not huge IMO.

Okay, not that I exactly agree with Excellen either, but this really always does seem kind of silly. A "random" vote should be for not much reason, like someone reading the thread but not posting or not commenting on something. Not truly random, at least not at this point. And stating that it's completely random defeats the point, since you're very likely not to keep it there and there's nothing to react to anyway. Not like if scum have to wonder whether they've messed up somewhere. Plus, it's just one of those "don't hold me accountable for my posts" things, and that is scummy.

Also, Excellen, do you not remember how badly that attitude worked for Sho?

Okay so we have 2 posts involving the last SSBB mafia that are definitely not quality posts. One post asking me for more opinions and accusing me of jumping on an easy bandwagon while at the same time attempting to give marth a get-out-of-jail-free card. That post also came with her replying to a small post at naglfar and excellen which are also, not quality. Then a post on the whole random voting stage bullshit argument that happened quite a few pages ago and ended quite a few pages ago. Quality? Oh wait no, that's not. And then finally a smart ass post comparing excellen and Sho.

THESE ARE AMAZING QUALITY POSTS AND SHE HAS OBVIOUSLY GIVEN HER OPINIONS ON OTHERS AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS GAME. AMIRITE? Isn't this something along the lines of a hypocrite? Where you tell someone to do something yet don't do it yourself and all that.

Thus my vote now sits on Kay, if I had noticed this earlier, I would have handled this earlier. That's what I get for not reading.

[Shinori]

also, Shinori should put more effort in the game

I refuse.

[Grace]

What caught my attention was the following:

So what caught your attention was all of my posts, and yet absolutely nothing else aside from Iris/Subieko? I thought you were better than that Clipsey. After all the time you tell me to in other games, and yet you don't do it yourself? Something's up here.

The point of the game is to try to NOT mislynch, and trying to tell the game that they're gonna mislynch is weird.

Well, maybe it's just me that thinks that it's likely then. What do I know? I'm only assuming the worst for D1 with absolutely no information. Call it a flaw of mine, but that's my general theory for D1 pretty much all the time.

Who died and put you in charge of today's lynch?

Hey, I never took control of the lynch at all. Heck, I'm wondering where you even got the idea from.

I hear an echo in the room. I'd prefer if Bananas would get in here and explain why the HELL numbers are so damn important when the game's less than 24 hours in, but this vote seems opportunistic.

Because I can't have an opinion similar to other people, right? Sure, I'll go and be an opinionless scum for the rest of the game then. /sarcasm

Also, opportunistic? It's the second vote on him, not the ninth. The only way it could be remotely opportunistic is if I was trying to get a wagon going on him, and even then, the wagon would actually have to happen first. Which right now, it's not.

[eclipse]

So what caught your attention was all of my posts, and yet absolutely nothing else aside from Iris/Subieko? I thought you were better than that Clipsey. After all the time you tell me to in other games, and yet you don't do it yourself? Something's up here.

Marth is the center/source of a lot of things, and by poking everything around him, I should be able to get a slightly better opinion of him.

Well, maybe it's just me that thinks that it's likely then. What do I know? I'm only assuming the worst for D1 with absolutely no information. Call it a flaw of mine, but that's my general theory for D1 pretty much all the time.

Assume nothing but the rules and your role PM. I wouldn't assume a mislynch, because it sounds like a convenient excuse of "oh well, it happens" if you are scum.

Hey, I never took control of the lynch at all. Heck, I'm wondering where you even got the idea from.

By reading literally, you missed the point. Why should I care about you being uncomfortable over anyone else being uncomfortable? Why should anyone care?

Because I can't have an opinion similar to other people, right? Sure, I'll go and be an opinionless scum for the rest of the game then. /sarcasm

Also, opportunistic? It's the second vote on him, not the ninth. The only way it could be remotely opportunistic is if I was trying to get a wagon going on him, and even then, the wagon would actually have to happen first. Which right now, it's not.

Oddly enough, you were also the second vote on Marth, and look at how that turned out. Bananas looks horrid at the moment, but I'm willing to give him a chance to get in here and explain himself, because he's absolutely amazing at doing precisely what he shouldn't be doing (see: Shining Force Mafia, where it's always wisest to vote for the guy claiming town leader on D1).

My vote stays for now.

[Grace]

By reading literally, you missed the point. Why should I care about you being uncomfortable over anyone else being uncomfortable? Why should anyone care?

I need to call in the "Manix is thick" brigade. Because my thick skull doesn't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Soz. :(

Oddly enough, you were also the second vote on Marth, and look at how that turned out.

Correlation does not imply causation, my dear Clipsey. Yes, it does wink suggestively, but still. I didn't know that the other people were going to vote for him, so, why should that be a point against me?

[eclipse]

I need to call in the "Manix is thick" brigade. Because my thick skull doesn't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Soz. :(

By appending those kinds of statements, you are implying that you are more important than everyone else when it comes to deciding who will be lynched. It's something I take issue with, because the lynch is decided by majority, not one person.

Correlation does not imply causation, my dear Clipsey. Yes, it does wink suggestively, but still. I didn't know that the other people were going to vote for him, so, why should that be a point against me?

This reeks of a scumtell ("I can get other people to vote for him, tee-hee~!") Or, I could be reading too far into a grammatical error. Either way, your reasons for voting Bananas are based off of other people's reasons, which, at best, is lazy. Combine that with your previous behavior, and it comes out scummy instead.

[BBM]

Shinori, where did Marth say that he has info that the rest of the town doesn't? IIRC, he said that he had a reason to vote for Blitz, but that he wasn't going to tell us. Unless I missed a post somewhere, he never said that he has info that we don't. In fact, Manix too said that Marth said that there was something in the thread that made him suspicious of Blitz. So he probably has something minor that makes him suspicious of Blitz, and decided to reactionfish for him based on that. So he's not lying either.

And we actually have no meta (at least not useful/pertinent meta) on scum!Blitz. I was scumbuddies with him in SFM if you remember, and his thought process was that because it was an OC game, he was not going to post in the game thread at all except to vote, a thought process that I think he would have had even if if he was town. This is an NOC game, so he's bound to act differently here even if he's scum.

[eclipse]

If you want to meta Blitz as "scum", check Carnival Phantasm Mafia. Third party isn't quite the same as scum, but his play style was noticeably different.

[Naglfar]

ugh, pages, time for analysis or whatever

[Grace]

By appending those kinds of statements, you are implying that you are more important than everyone else when it comes to deciding who will be lynched. It's something I take issue with, because the lynch is decided by majority, not one person.

If I said that was never my intention, you wouldn't believe me, right? Okay then. I never did intend to imply that I'm more important. Because I'm not at all.

This reeks of a scumtell ("I can get other people to vote for him, tee-hee~!") Or, I could be reading too far into a grammatical error. Either way, your reasons for voting Bananas are based off of other people's reasons, which, at best, is lazy. Combine that with your previous behavior, and it comes out scummy instead.

Probably reading too far into a grammatical error (which is where? I might ask). I only said that I didn't know what the other people were going to do with that situation. I don't know where they will vote, because I'm not a mind-reader.

And again, I'm not allowed to have opinions similar to others? Because if that were the case, we wouldn't get anything done because no one would be safe in banding together to lynch scum. I don't see you berating anyone else in the game for having similar opinions, so why are you applying it only to me?

Whatever. Vote me if you want, if it makes you happy.

[BBM]

Person A: I don't like Person C because she's a girl

Person B: I don't like Person B because she's mean

See how neither of them like Person C, but neither of them are using the other's reason either. It's eprfectly possible to band together for a lynch without all thinking the same thing. Now, all people having different reasons for someone being scummy is going too far (there is a limit to how scummy a person can be, after all), but I can see Eclipse's point. However I agree with you that she should be applying that logic to other people as well.

Also stop the defeatist attitude it's annoying and accomplishes nothing.

[eclipse]

If I said that was never my intention, you wouldn't believe me, right? Okay then. I never did intend to imply that I'm more important. Because I'm not at all.

. . .probably not, because you seem to think that you know more than I do when it comes to such things.

Probably reading too far into a grammatical error (which is where? I might ask). I only said that I didn't know what the other people were going to do with that situation. I don't know where they will vote, because I'm not a mind-reader.

And again, I'm not allowed to have opinions similar to others? Because if that were the case, we wouldn't get anything done because no one would be safe in banding together to lynch scum. I don't see you berating anyone else in the game for having similar opinions, so why are you applying it only to me?

Whatever. Vote me if you want, if it makes you happy.

Tenses are important.

"I don't know why my car isn't starting" - might want to get that checked out.

"I didn't know why my car wasn't starting" - implies that you now know what caused your car to misbehave.

Having similar opinions will happen, but voting someone based off of everyone else's opinion is silly. And now you're doing the exact same thing Marth did - "lolwhatever". However, that's what I needed to get out of you, as reference. It doesn't look good at the moment, but it's not enough to call an early lynch. Now, then. . .who was next. . .

##Unvote

##Vote: Naglfar

[Excellen Browning]

Also, Excellen, do you not remember how badly that attitude worked for Sho?

Yes and fortunately I'm not Sho and I don't get lynched because I behave like an asshole from time to time. Moot point Kay, on a streak of posts I don't consider town at all.

I think Naggy and Excellen were overreacting when they voted for Blues simply because he voted without explaining his reasons. I mean, come on, when you don't explain your reasons for voting for someone, it most likely isn't a situation of scum trying to score a mislynch, because Blues did not even attempt to get others to vote for him but rather, he refused to explain his reasons.

##Vote: Shinori

Voting for him when he had four votes already? Simply because he voted without explaining himself? I find it scummy how you were willing to lynch him for that. Why exactly did you want him to spill his beans?

Huh? Sorry, are you trying to imply I thought bluedoom/marth was scummy? Why are you trying to spread lies? Why are you trying to incriminate me?

[Strawman]

##UnvoteEclipse's response and recent activity was what i was looking for :)

Well, bed time. See you guys tomorrow where I will re-read all this once again.

[Kay]

Well, I think there are both many pros and cons to separating the players. IIRC that is what we did last time and it seemed to work pretty well, but we did have OC. I could see the benefit in it possibly limiting who could be scum based on what stage the person who dies comes from. We would get that info anyways since we will know who went to each stage, but equally splitting people among them(4 on all stages except one stage with 3 people) gives us a very small number of suspects to be the killer. if we leave it up to chance we could get 9 people on one stage and 2 on another which sucks if someone on the 9 people stage dies but it great if the person on the 2 person stage dies. However, there is also the (pretty good imo) chance of a mafia kill ability that can bypass stage limitations. This could cause problems is there is a stage without a mafia on it and they choose to kill someone on that stage. It sets us with the complete wrong targets. This risk rises, I think, if we organize where everyone should go as any form of public in thread organization gives the mafia a chance to participate and try and get things to go the way they want. For now, I think its probably most beneficial to leave stage up to random for day 1, but depending on the information we get and the circumstances later on in the game, it could be useful to organize it in some sense.

Remember that the mafia can very likely choose who to send on the kill, too, so probably they wouldn't kill on a stage with very few people.

As for the subject of RVS(which i participated in extremely late lol) I have begun participating in it for a completely different reason than other. Personally I had been hesitant to vote, especially early on, because of my lack of strong early D1 opinions. In more recent games I have found that if I make a random vote in one of my first couple day posts it eases me into the act of voting and allows me to be much more effective in questioning/pressuring people and expressing my opinion trough votes. SO really I just do it to get over my own personal hesitations.

Fair enough.

Subieko looks a bit townish to me. Eclipse seems to be trying to bully people out of talking, which is always the first thing I notice about her when she's scum.

Shinori, I'm trying to post whenever I'm online. Sometimes this leads to posts that aren't amazingly useful, because I'm tired or in a hurry or something. Would you rather I didn't post more than twice a day or so? Also, I was trying to point out to Excellen that being a jerk to start discussion might not be the best idea, why do you feel the need to insult me over that?

[eclipse]

Subieko looks a bit townish to me. Eclipse seems to be trying to bully people out of talking, which is always the first thing I notice about her when she's scum.

In other words, "get irritated when people don't say what they mean, along with getting a free ride on behavior that should've been called out way back." You can help with this. ;/

[Naglfar]

So Eclipse has voted me

now what

she didn't say why

marth wagon? I don't know

[Kay]

THESE ARE AMAZING QUALITY POSTS AND SHE HAS OBVIOUSLY GIVEN HER OPINIONS ON OTHERS AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS GAME. AMIRITE?

Also, do I not count as having opinions unless I listpost or something? I thought my posts generally made my opinions pretty clear.

[eclipse]

So Eclipse has voted me

now what

she didn't say why

marth wagon? I don't know

Yep. Right down the Marthwagon. I'd like as good a read off of everyone on that wagon as possible, because I honestly can't tell if Marth's actions are because he thinks that's good town play or because he's scum.

[Shinori]

What opinions have you said on other players? I linked your 5 posts in this game Kay. I understand not posting that much, I haven't done so that much in this game but look at the above. Out of your five posts, I was mentioned, not much, Marth was mentioned, you responded to excellen and you responded to naglfar about nothing really involving opinions whatsoever. You haven't stated that much of your 'opinions' on anyone in this game except the bit focused towards marth and myself. A list isn't necessary but I know you are better than this, and you know that as well.

Also I wasn't insulting you at all, I'm just annoyed that people are saying I'm scummy for being the supposed 5th person to vote someone when I didn't see anyone better at the time because I hadn't been around and I hadn't read the thread. Oh and supposedly I was echoing.

So please though how are your opinions clear? You think I'm scum and/or unhelpful and you think marth is town that was just probing for a reaction from people? Because that's all I see from your current posts.

[eclipse]

. . .that's one less person I need to vote for. Thanks, Shinori.