Percivalé Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 as often as mods want them to exist eh eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 but when has that happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 i too think that being the only visitor on a kill is able to be bullshitted out of. kirsche pls They can and if you don't even consider the possibility then you're really leaving yourself open to be screwed over. The whole hook thing doesn't happen much but is a legit use of watcher. Again, not saying watcher is useless but it's not amazing, excellent or the best thing since sliced bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) They can and if you don't even consider the possibility then you're really leaving yourself open to be screwed over. The whole hook thing doesn't happen much but is a legit use of watcher. Again, not saying watcher is useless but it's not amazing, excellent or the best thing since sliced bread. These seem like esoteric nitpickings that have little effect on actual games. Which non-Cop Town informative role would you rate as the best and on what grounds? Edited January 2, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) how often do roles like that exist though well it could also be a ninja lol edit which generally do exist when there is a town watcher, i'm pretty sure? Edited January 2, 2015 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 well it could also be a ninja lol edit which generally do exist when there is a town watcher, i'm pretty sure? Never seen one before. Do they just proc before other roles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Never seen one before. Do they just proc before other roles? No, Ninjas simply don't show up on Watcher/Tracker/Follower/Voyeur reports. They still have normal priority though and can be roleblocked, redirected etc. as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No, Ninjas simply don't show up on Watcher/Tracker/Follower/Voyeur reports. They still have normal priority though and can be roleblocked, redirected etc. as a result. Aha, thanks. A Mafia Ninja would make a Watcher useless until the Ninja died, wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Aha, thanks. A Mafia Ninja would make a Watcher useless until the Ninja died, wouldn't it? Who's to say a watcher wouldn't be able to catch other things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 These seem like esoteric nitpickings that have little effect on actual games. Which non-Cop Town informative role would you rate as the best and on what grounds? Question asker obviously ;/ so excluding that... It'll be setup dependant probably, though generally Oracle is pretty sweet but risky (could just out a town role, but if you hit scum, ie you have good reads, the info is reliable which is very nice). If you include them as an info role friendly neighbours are pretty cool, and coroner can be really important with unlimited janitors but you don't get a lot of them here compared to other places. Some places have cool spy variants where you see everyone that the mafia targetted. None of those roles are really used much here though. Tracker is like watcher but is more player controlled which can be argued either way. Cops are a really huge bracket of investigation role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Don't forget Sensor. Fuck Sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Who's to say a watcher wouldn't be able to catch other things? Unless it's also a Follower, it won't be much help. The chances of Mafia using a shot and a role on the same person in a night are unlikely, and if a person doesn't die you can't know that the action taken was by Mafia or even what the action was. I'm assuming that if it doesn't help catch scum, it's more of a detriment than a boon. Correct me if I'm wrong. Edited January 2, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) A Mafia Ninja would make a Watcher useless until the Ninja died, wouldn't it? If there are no limits placed on the Ninja, yes, as long as the mafia sends the Ninja to perform the kills. Who's to say a watcher wouldn't be able to catch other things? The point is that they can't watch the killer which seemed to have been the main point of discussion. Edited January 2, 2015 by Kaoz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Question asker obviously ;/ so excluding that... It'll be setup dependant probably, though generally Oracle is pretty sweet but risky (could just out a town role, but if you hit scum, ie you have good reads, the info is reliable which is very nice). If you include them as an info role friendly neighbours are pretty cool, and coroner can be really important with unlimited janitors but you don't get a lot of them here compared to other places. Some places have cool spy variants where you see everyone that the mafia targetted. None of those roles are really used much here though. Tracker is like watcher but is more player controlled which can be argued either way. Cops are a really huge bracket of investigation role. Unfortunately I am only familiar with the roles on MafiaScum and have only played seven or so games. Conventional roles outside of the classics are unknown to me. Asking is the only way to learn them. Am I wrong to say that Tracker is fairly worthless as a Town role unless you already know not only who scum are but which of them will take what action that night? Edited January 2, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Not really; you just target people you find suspicious and if they visit the nightkill or perform actions that don't match with their claim you vote them. As for the delayed-kill watcher thing, almost the exact same thing happened to me in Golden Sun. I watched Manix, the claimed Reviver, and 4 people visited him and he didn't die. I watched him again the next cycle and nobody visited me and he died. I was like wtf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Don't forget Sensor. Fuck Sensor. Well I was skipping downright op roles after question asker (because lol question asker, lol sensor) Unfortunately I am only familiar with the roles on MafiaScum and have only played seven or so games. Conventional roles outside of the classics are unknown to me. Asking is the only way to learn them. I can explain then if you like: Question asker: Ask hosts a question, gets an honest answer in non-bastard games. Sensor: Gets tolds how many mafia votes were on the main lynch wagon (alternatively on a wagon of their choice) Oracle: Targets a player each night. If the oracle dies the target's full role pm will be announced. Friendly Neighbour: Whoever visits them is told that their alignment is town. Coroner: If a janitor hides a kill flip, coroner can find out what the kill flip was. Spy: Is given the names of everyone that the mafia targetted. Am I wrong to say that Tracker is fairly worthless as a Town role unless you already know not only who scum are but which of them will take what action that night? Tracker is definitely more appreciated as a scum role than a town one, but I wouldn't say it's worthless for the same reason watcher isn't worthless as it can help catch scum in a lie (though that usually doesn't happen). I don't really think of either watcher or tracker to be particularly strong when it comes to investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Not really; you just target people you find suspicious and if they visit the nightkill or perform actions that don't match with their claim you vote them. I'm assuming that they haven't claimed and asking them to is bad (based on rebukes I've gotten in the past). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Question asker: Ask hosts a question, gets an honest answer in non-bastard games. Sensor: Gets tolds how many mafia votes were on the main lynch wagon (alternatively on a wagon of their choice) Oracle: Targets a player each night. If the oracle dies the target's full role pm will be announced. Friendly Neighbour: Whoever visits them is told that their alignment is town. Coroner: If a janitor hides a kill flip, coroner can find out what the kill flip was. Spy: Is given the names of everyone that the mafia targetted. The variation of Spy I've heard of is where they can see the whole Mafia Nightchat but with the names removed. I guess that's not very common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 well, like... with Tracker and Watcher, results aren't as easy as they are with Cop and Rolecop. With Tracker, you might target someone who hasn't claimed yet, and the info may not be immediately useful, but then later if that person does claim for whatever reason, you can potentially catch them in a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Pretty weak, then. Thanks for explaining. Edited January 2, 2015 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The variation of Spy I've heard of is where they can see the whole Mafia Nightchat but with the names removed. I guess that's not very common? Well in forum mafia that doesn't really happen as easily. It makes sense in epicmafia, but considering mafia members here will probably communicate through skype, quicktopics and pms it's difficult to implement. Tbh none of the roles listed there are very common and often dropped in favour of the more standard cop variants. Cop is just that solid a role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 just saying that provided optimal play you can BS your way out of a cop guilty that doesn't make cop any less powerful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) It's a lot harder to go "but tailer" than "but ninja" though in the SF meta. And it kinda does tbh, the more untrustworthy an investigation result, the less useful it is to have. Edited January 2, 2015 by kirsche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 just my onion but i feel like the best way to incorporate a miller in a mafia game as an actual anti-cop measure would be to RNG the miller randomly out of the townies, not tell them, then tell the cop "there is a single, randomly picked townie who you will scan as Guilty, you will be informed who this townie was when they die" would only work if there was a single cop tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (the actual best idea is just to not use a miller or framer or whatever because a GF teamed up with one of roleblocker/strongman is all the anti-cop you need. false positives are 100000x better than false negatives) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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