Void Mafia - Game Over

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

If his memory is awful, he pretty much lied about every single point up there anyway

[MancerNecro]

If his memory is awful, he pretty much lied about every single point up there anyway

I'm talking about my memory and not his, though.

[Rapier]

I'll join the baldrick wagon I guess but one thing I feel like stating.

We don't know if Rein was actually killed because he was the stone holder or if it was for another reason.

I can think of a few off the type of my head from MY perspective.

Rein being killed for some other reason than the stone is a big coincidence. I'd rather work with hypothesis that are not coincidences.

Now, Baldrick certainly seems scummy. I've been thinking about the possibility of an item cop verifying Rein's item somehow, and my theory evolved into this: Rein had interactions with Scorri (confirmed by Elie) -> Scorri told Baldrick to check Rein's items and got all the materials as the result (they could've used Scorri's magical clock to act twice and figure out who had the components, since both me and Sho were clearly alchemists) -> They killed him on D2.

Either way, should Baldrick turn out to be scum, the possibility of Scorri also being scum is pretty high. Elie -could- have sold Rein to the Mafia, but I think it'd be hard to guess he was the holder of all the components. It's not hard if you have a hutch and an item cop with you, however. Seeing how Baldrick was too opportunistic to place a vote on anyone in D1 as long as he had an excuse for it, I have no objections really.

##Vote: Baldrick

[scorri]

##Unvote

I'm liking some of the reactions I'm getting here (Baldrick) and not liking some of the others (Sho). Sho: Why do you assume that everyone automatically needs to tell you everything? It's OC. Things are going to get hidden. You're not confirmed town and have never been confirmed town. I voted Baldrick largely to get a reaction. I did and I got one I liked. Now, lets talk some about this case you've built up.

True, Baldrick withheld information from you. But uh... since when is that a crime? And so you claim that because he did that and the fact that he knew my item means that we're both automatically scum. Now, sure. We should be looking for who killed Rein. I agree. But, I don't see the jump you make here in logic. I briefly talk to rein about alchemy and all of a sudden that makes it so I knew that Rein had the stone? Lets look at my logs.

[spoiler=Rein]Jan 12 13:36:25 <timaeusTestified> what do you know about alchemy

Jan 12 13:36:36 <scorri> nothing except sho is looking for it

Jan 12 13:36:42 <timaeusTestified> k

Jan 12 13:36:51 <timaeusTestified> sounds like everybody else

Jan 12 13:37:18 <scorri> yeah

Jan 12 13:37:28 <scorri> i've been asking some people about it too

Jan 12 13:37:35 <scorri> and they all just say sho is looking for it

Jan 12 13:38:28 <timaeusTestified> same here

Jan 12 13:38:39 <scorri> yeah, i dunno

Jan 12 13:39:35 <timaeusTestified> i don't think we've ever played OC together

Jan 12 13:39:53 <scorri> i don't think so

Jan 12 13:40:04 <timaeusTestified> well, homestuck sort of

Jan 12 13:40:06 <scorri> the only oc games i've played were psych games

Jan 12 13:40:07 <timaeusTestified> but we never talked

Jan 12 13:40:08 <scorri> so

Jan 12 13:40:09 <scorri> yeah

Jan 12 13:43:24 <scorri> anyways

Jan 12 13:43:26 <scorri> claimtome

Jan 12 13:43:27 <scorri> :P

Jan 12 13:43:31 <scorri> in reality

Jan 12 13:43:36 <scorri> have you had any interesting convos?

Jan 12 13:43:52 <timaeusTestified> all of my conversations so far have been about alchemy

Jan 12 13:43:57 <scorri> ok

Jan 12 13:44:12 <scorri> i'm assuming you're looking for the items that sho's looking for then?

Jan 12 13:44:38 <timaeusTestified> he asked me so I was curious

Jan 12 13:44:52 <scorri> ok

Jan 12 13:45:11 <timaeusTestified> won't say anything more than that :P

Jan 12 13:45:15 <scorri> heh

Jan 12 13:45:16 <scorri> fair

Now. That's the extent of the private conversation I had with Rein. Period. It'd be a pretty big leap for me to jump to the fact that Rein had a component, especially when I'd talked to quite a few more people about alchemy, all who seemed more interested in it. But, I guess it's just about as big of a leap and the assumption that Baldrick and I are buddies because Baldrick didn't tell Sho everything he did right away and I talked to Rein. Actually, that one still seems like a bigger leap. So, now, I have a question for Baldrick and a question for everyone else.

Baldrick: You say that you got a N1 result that BBM has a bolt left. Is this true and if so, why aren't you yelling at him for lying about his item?

Everyone voting Baldrick: Besides role spec, point me to anything scummy that Baldrick has done. No really, please. And I'm not really counting D1 vote hops because he's explained himself pretty well there and if we're going after that, there are worse offenders I'd like to look at.

[BBM]

>_> That Mancer thing was a reaction test that I never took back because I'm dumb, okay? It was really stupid on my part, and I apologize for this not being a very good game for me. It's the first OC game I've played where I actually tried, and my mistakes were a lot greater because of that. I know it probably screwed up a lot of people's reads, but ugh, it made sense to me at the time. Hopefully I'll be able to explain it better after the game is done and everything is less confusing.

I think the Baldrick and Scorri are scumbuddies idea is a bit of a stretch, but Scorri, Baldrick forgetting the only action he'd had to send in at that point isn't really rolespec. TBH, it seems more likely to me that one of the people who Scorri told about her item is scum, or let it slip to scum, and Baldrick cited that as his N0 action when his real N0 action was item-copping Rein.

[Elieson]

Bal's claim of ItemCop matches with what I have, and unless he and scorri are a scumteam (which I call a stretch at best right now), I think Sho's grasping and/or trying to draw attention elsewhere. He's obviously a suspect due to the whole Alchemy nonsense, and Rapier is too.

And to confirm, that's the information that I recieved from scorri about her conversation with Rein. She just had it prior to me. I think I had about the same amount of conversation (10 minutes worth of uselessness), and to call that an assumption that he has an alchemy item means that everyone who talked to him thought the same. I had no idea he did, and when Rein told me "sho was asking around so it got me curious", I figured I'd ask around as well.

And scorri, I tore into BBM already for this, as soon as I found out of the situation. I'd like to see why Bal didn't though.

---

Building on my concern about this sho thing though.

Mafia was aware of Rein holding the stone: They likely killed him for it.

Mafia was not aware of Rein holding the stone: They likely killed him for a no info kill or whatever other reason.

Sho told Shinori that Rapier and Baldrick knew about it, but Bal claimed (pretty accurately too), scorri's item. For Rein to be killed for the stone, either:

-Sho spilled the beans. He didn't tell me anything so i dunno who else he hid it from

-Rapier spilled the beans. Rapier already told me about his component (and Sho can verify that since I approached sho about it), but he didn't tell me about Rein

-Baldrick found the stone n0 (according to my intel, not completely possible) and informed scum (by either slipping or being scum himself)

Considering Sho was the mastermind behind the entire situation, I can see him not being aware of Cult!Rein, but I can see him being scum due to such forceful coordination of the stone. A plan to hide the materials with a suspected safe player is fine and dandy, but the one who coordinated it all was Sho, and it seems too coincidential that the one who coordinated everything also ended up having one of his more or less unknown "partners" killed. It's a more logical assumption than scum!scorri and scum!baldrick are sharing information and scanning others, anyway.

##Vote Sho.M

I'm still finding culprits for cult, and think that when we weed out cult, town can focus on scumhunting much much easier.

[BBM]

Sho can't be both cult and scum though. If he got culted, he couldn't have been the reason behind Rein's death, since mafia can't be culted. And honestly I don't think Rein would cult someone who had such absolute trust in him anyways. I know this is contradictory to what I said early in the phase, but my outlook on Sho has improved quite a bit. His attitude in my OC chats with him hasn't really said scum to me.

If we're not lynching Baldrick for being a derp and somehow not mentioning he'd already targeted Scorri, I still wouldn't mind a Cam lynch because all those reasons are still valid. However I won't be here this evening and I might not be here for phase end either, so unless something major comes up in the next few hours my vote will probably stay where it is.

Also, Elie, other than Baldrick knowing Scorri's item, do you have proof that he targeted Scorri N0? Unless I'm missing something, the only roles in the game that could have proven that (Tracker and Voyeur) did not target either of the parties in question.

[Xinnidy]

Maaan what the heck happpened lately.

I don't really buy scorri and baldrick being scumbuddies, considering baldrick let her item slip incorrectly and scorri just outed about it to some people anyways, that'd be really uncoordinated if true.

On the other hand, I really have no clue on who to vote, too much going on in my mind right now.

I'd like for cam to make an effort when he shows up, he may be busy but it'd be nice to get some clearing up about this.

[Helios]

@Baldrick: Your contradiction is that you said you were gonna target Scorri N1 even though you already did N0 and seemed to just "forget" about it. It reminds me of Mancer in Pokemon Adventures Mafia screwing up his fake. That's personally the reason why I'm voting for you.

I finally got a chance to read Shinori's conversation with Sho and I see where Shinori is coming from. I don't really like Sho's logic at all (a lot of assumptions and not a lot of evidence for his claims, some of his theories seem a bit farfetched, etc) but I do agree with what he said about Baldrick, which is why I'm keeping my vote on him over Sho.

[Helios]

Also I don't agree with scorri/baldrick scumbuddies since I've talked to scorri and I really believe she's town. If scum!Baldrick, chances are someone let Scorri's item slip (pretty much what someone else already said, I just agree with it).

[Shinori]

##Unvote:

##Vote: Baldrick

I pretty much figured that baldrick would be the lynch for the day, but I still think we should keep an eye on Sho no matter what baldrick flips.

[scorri]

Number of people who knew what my item did: Two. And I highly doubt either of them are scum and I highly doubt either of them let it slip. Thus why I believe Baldrick scanned me.

[Paperblade]

Sho: Baldrick, Elieson

Baldrick: BBM, Sho, Bluedoom, Helios, Mancer, Loocy, Rapier, Shinori

[13th]

##Vote: Baldrick

I trust Sho more than you right now. Too many contradictions have been mentioned for my taste.

[scorri]

Guys, what contradictions are there except for the fact that Baldrick didn't tell someone everything that he knew? It's OC. Sharing everything would be stupid. And since it's been stated that BBM does in fact have the bolt, I'm more inclined to believe Baldrick's not lying, since there's no way for him to know my item unless one of two people slipped. Plus, actually no. I'm wrong. There was no way for him to know the name of my item unless he did in fact scan me. Because I told *no one* my item name until others already knew it.

[scorri]

##Vote:Sho

Your jumps in logic are shaky and this reeks of trying to push a mislynch.

[BBM]

Also I don't agree with scorri/baldrick scumbuddies since I've talked to scorri and I really believe she's town. If scum!Baldrick, chances are someone let Scorri's item slip (pretty much what someone else already said, I just agree with it).

These are basically my feelings on the matter. I've talked to Scorri quite a bit over the last few days and she just hasn't been giving me many scumvibes. But Baldrick has, and this last thing is kind of just what pushed it overboard.

[Rapier]

Guys, what contradictions are there except for the fact that Baldrick didn't tell someone everything that he knew? It's OC. Sharing everything would be stupid. And since it's been stated that BBM does in fact have the bolt, I'm more inclined to believe Baldrick's not lying, since there's no way for him to know my item unless one of two people slipped. Plus, actually no. I'm wrong. There was no way for him to know the name of my item unless he did in fact scan me. Because I told *no one* my item name until others already knew it.

The problem is, why would he lie about targetting you on N0, and then tell Sho he was going to target you on N1 while choosing to target BBM? He didn't need to go that far. All he needed was to say "sorry, I don't trust you enough to tell you who I'm targetting this Night/who I targetted last Night".

Now, why is it illogical that you and Baldrick are scumbuddies? If your item really helps him act twice during the Night, he could've easily targetted two of us three and found out who has the ingredients. Either way, the Item Cop is suspicious of lying when he did not need to.

[scorri]

a) Item passing is last so no he couldn't have. He could have seen who had items, but not who ended up with them. So, yeah.

b) He didn't quite lie. He omitted truth which is not the same in OC. There's a cult. Of course you're not going to tell someone everything you know.

c) He didn't lie about targeting me on N0. I've told no one my item name until Sho asked me this day phase. I believe Baldrick targeted me.

d) Since I know I'm not scumbuddies with Baldrick and at least a handful of other people agree that I'm town, then that leaves only him targeting me.

Here's what I see. He knew BBM still had his bolt. Check for that. He knew the name of my item which I had told no one. Check for that. Seems to me like he wasn't lying about either of his night actions. Now, I suppose he could still be scum. But, I'm not ok with lynching him just because he hid the fact that he'd already targeted me.

[Paperblade]

Hey guys. 13th hammered, if my math is right.

[Paperblade]

Okay apparently I didn't include that in the rules (I blame Kaoz). That's kind of annoying.

[Paperblade]

Since I didn't include that in the rules I'm not gonna end this phase early, but I added Rules 7.1 and 7.2 to mechanics.

[Elieson]

wait so Bal isn't lynched? Can we at least get votals?

[Elieson]

well nevermind it was only a vote on Sho and a vote on Bal since your votals from earlier.

[Elieson]

Sho can't be both cult and scum though. If he got culted, he couldn't have been the reason behind Rein's death, since mafia can't be culted. And honestly I don't think Rein would cult someone who had such absolute trust in him anyways. I know this is contradictory to what I said early in the phase, but my outlook on Sho has improved quite a bit. His attitude in my OC chats with him hasn't really said scum to me.

If we're not lynching Baldrick for being a derp and somehow not mentioning he'd already targeted Scorri, I still wouldn't mind a Cam lynch because all those reasons are still valid. However I won't be here this evening and I might not be here for phase end either, so unless something major comes up in the next few hours my vote will probably stay where it is.

Also, Elie, other than Baldrick knowing Scorri's item, do you have proof that he targeted Scorri N0? Unless I'm missing something, the only roles in the game that could have proven that (Tracker and Voyeur) did not target either of the parties in question.

Working from bottom, up. The only thing I have is Baldrick's claim, which makes sense with what scorri's item is claimed to be. SO i guess I don't have actual proof that Bal targetted scorri, but then again I don't have actual proof that Bal and scorri are same-aligned.

Supporting the awesome Cam lynch over the weird Bal lynch, but it's probably because I just genuinely think Bal was misunderstood, and was hiding information because he didn't want to claim his investigative role outright and early.

Cult needs to remove scum from the game, because it lessens their chances of winning, as they can only recruit town. If Sho was indeed culted by Rein, then it makes logical sense that Rapier /COULD/ be scum. Vice Versa applies. Got anything else that Rein could be linked to, in order to find the possible cult backup? If you do, you have more than I.

If Sho is scum: Mafia has a 100% chance of getting the stone.

If Sho was culted: Rein dying means that cult has lost the stone, and therefore, Sho has lost the stone himself. Sho couldn't have been responsible for Rein dying, and is therefore still 100% likely to stress over the lost stone/components. Being as the stone required N1 to even be assembled, it's likely that Sho (unless scum) has no idea what it's actually capable of. Which explains his concern and obvious reaction at the beginning of the day. It doesn't clear him worth a fuck, and sadly, even if he was "cultproof" N1, he didn't even ask for my item until D1 (in which time he could've already been culted, and wanted to protect himself from a potential nightkilling on N1).

Plus, Sho is the one trying to control the lynch, just as he was the one trying to control the stone and control my crafting.

FMPOV, It's a fair possibility, and I honestly don't have much else on other players that points to them being more likely cultORscum than town. That's my reasoning.