FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Legault!]

did you read my entire post? you're not disagreeing with me.

Clearly I don't just seem dumb but am actually dumb because I read your post and didn't get this from it. Glad we agree. So what's your proposed solution for how to handle this? Absolute LTC?

[Florete]

So Panne is awesome, but awesome enough to be in the same tier as Avatar? Less availability, requiring a Second Seal, and needing to work up from E Axes (and the weaknesses) should keep her out of there. She can go above Frederick, but I think Freddy is too high anyway.

[Dark Sage]

E Axes is a non issue for Panne thanks to Strength +2 and Wyvern bases. Taguel bases are such shit that she does more damage with Bronze than a Beaststone lmao, so reclassing her is basically like a free promotion and she has killer growths all across the board.

Second Seal competition is not too much of an issue either. While many units would like a Second Seal, they a)do not see nearly as remarkable improvement from it as Panne does and b)most of them function fine in their original classes. For example, while Gregor likes going Myrmidon or Barbarian, there's definitely good reason to keep him in the Mercenary line because that way he can be a Hero much earlier and get Sol, which is really good (Hero's also a really good class in this game). It's really mostly Vaike and Donnel who come the closest to getting a lot out of it but Donnel is a joke and Vaike can wait for a bit, plus the impact of sealing him isn't nearly as big as sealing Panne.

Second Seals also gradually become more common later on to the point where they're buyable. It's no speedwing in terms of scarcity or competition.

[Interceptor]

Gracious, you take a break for a ballgame, come back to the wreckage of a Category three Shitstorm.

As for changes to the tier list, I think I'm going to be moving Panne into top tier. Not sure about anything else.

Sure would be nice if that came with a reason or seven, considering that Panne has garbage RES and nearly every effective weakness available to the entire playable cast, in a game that bleeds archers and mages. And just for grins, she takes a contested Second Seal, because why not. Why not go for the ultimate absurdity and just put her over Avatar?

Do I come across as a dumb guy? People are explaining this to me like I'm a Fire Emblem toddler.

In your defense, some of the explanations and arguments are legitimately asinine, though at this late hour, I am not even going to attempt to unravel the yarn-ball of degeneracy in the last three pages of thread. It's a duel for another day. Although hopefully you at least understand that following the line of "best" playthrough to its logical conclusion means that this thread is full of tumbleweeds.

[Blademaster!]

So why was Kellam decided to be put in C tier? In the playthrough I'm doing right now, I think he might be able to go in the B tier.

[grandjackal]

So why was Kellam decided to be put in C tier? In the playthrough I'm doing right now, I think he might be able to go in the B tier.

Has no real long term. He offers a pretty neat support to those that wanna go up front and tear faces up when he first shows up (guys like Lonqu or the pegasi think he's pretty fly), but being an armor knight is still a tough deal. He's never going to have an excuse to be on point in a pair, and even if he does he just continues to be mediocre due to a god awful speed stat. The best he could possibly offer is a quick promotion and rush to 5 for Defense Cry, or Great Knight support bonuses.

[Florete]

Who's Kellam? Oh, that Kellam.

Kellam really is just an overall average unit. Fits his character pretty well. He'll hit hard and take hits well, but won't double and therefore won't kill most enemies without someone joining in. His base class is overall kind of average on account of having bad mobility but bonuses that someone is bound to want for at least a few maps, and he can get Rally Defense for further support if you actually take him that far. He's not bad, but he isn't good, so C tier is pretty fitting for him. I'd sooner see him move down as I find Lissa superior.

[Shadow Mir]

.....What is he above Lissa *AND* Maribelle for anyhow? I just can't see it as plausible for him to be above one, let alone both, of them...

Edited March 19, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[grandjackal]

.....What is he above Lissa *AND* Maribelle for anyhow? I just can't see it as plausible for him to be above one, let alone both, of them...

Healers simply don't really have a good role in the fight, especially dedicated healers. What with how one can swap with pair up and heal with an item when convenient, a healer doesn't really give much.

Also, their supports help just about no one. The game also flat out gives you Libra and Anna.

[Blademaster!]

He's never going to have an excuse to be on point in a pair

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I also just realized my Kellam was spd and str blessed and currently has 17 str and 12 spd at lvl 13 which is enough to double most enemies in chapter 6. His defense is average so far though and that's enough to take no damage from practically anything even with a shitty donnel support. His movement was a non-issue as far as paralogue 2 and chapter 6 go. If he gets worse long term, then I'll just have to wait and see. It's really a shame he can't support Sumia...

Also, looking at drafts, my turn counts are all pretty shitty. Probably what happens when you don't use any high tier characters for anything but support and no forges either.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Blademaster!

[bottlegnomes]

Since I'm too tired to actually argue anything, I'll just address Legault's point. Cutting turns is important, but, as you've said, we're not sticking to the absolute LTC. So while it's fine to use a strategy that increases turns, each turn added should increase the reliability of the strategy by a noticeable margin. Pulling numbers out of my ass, like 10-15% per turn. From my, and as far as I can tell, many other people's experiences, nostanking doesn't increase the reliability enough to warrant the increase in turns.

Returning to your example, I'd say yes, increasing the TC by 1 to go from 80% to 100% is definitely acceptable. Increasing by 2 is borderline, but I'd be for it. However, nostanking vs normal strat makes the TC go from 7 to 10 and increases reliability from 85% to 97% (since it's not completely, 110% reliable), so not worth it. Again, I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, but I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

Edited March 19, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Paperblade]

No strategy is ever going to be 100% reliable since you need to get good level ups at some point and not get crit and actually hit enemies, the whole point of reliability is to minimize these risks

[dondon151]

Clearly I don't just seem dumb but am actually dumb because I read your post and didn't get this from it. Glad we agree. So what's your proposed solution for how to handle this? Absolute LTC?

we do as we have always done and let the tier list criteria float in some oddly defined space between lowest TC and casual-ness. it seems that mostly everyone sort of understands the goal of the tier list even if we have huge arguments over how to put it into words.

[eclipse]

On one extreme, there is insane grinding. On the other, there's extreme LTC, where everything is centered around beating maps in the lowest amount of turns as possible. Most people play somewhere in between. A tier list will be closer to the LTC portion of things, but not to the extent where a player would have to reset until they dodged three out of five 70% attacks.

[vento]

panne is so good after reclassing to wyvern rider i feel bad for using her

[Legault!]

So why was Kellam decided to be put in C tier? In the playthrough I'm doing right now, I think he might be able to go in the B tier.

He provides immediate +3 Strength and +5 Defense Pair Up bonuses, which is invaluable on Lunatic but not a particularly big deal on Hard; nice, but often unnecessary.

I don't understand why he's above Lissa myself. She has exclusive staff utility for the first six maps, she'll reach 10 and promote before too long, and she makes a very competent sage. She'll never be better than Anna / Libra, but I feel her contributions are being slighted somewhat.

Lucina (anyone else) might need a bump below Libra and Tiki. Chapter 14 is getting one-turned reliably, but she does make some nice contributions in 15 thanks to the glut of mounted units. She performs competently in 16. 17, and 18. But then you get Tiki, whose base stats are absolutely ridiculous, and you've been using Libra as your main staff wielder (along with Anna) since Chapter 9. Lucina (anyone else) is going to be underleveled and undersupported and I feel her current placement is probably inflated.

[PKL]

He provides immediate +3 Strength and +5 Defense Pair Up bonuses, which is invaluable on Lunatic but not a particularly big deal on Hard; nice, but often unnecessary.

I don't understand why he's above Lissa myself. She has exclusive staff utility for the first six maps, she'll reach 10 and promote before too long, and she makes a very competent sage. She'll never be better than Anna / Libra, but I feel her contributions are being slighted somewhat.

Lucina (anyone else) might need a bump below Libra and Tiki. Chapter 14 is getting one-turned reliably, but she does make some nice contributions in 15 thanks to the glut of mounted units. She performs competently in 16. 17, and 18. But then you get Tiki, whose base stats are absolutely ridiculous, and you've been using Libra as your main staff wielder (along with Anna) since Chapter 9. Lucina (anyone else) is going to be underleveled and undersupported and I feel her current placement is probably inflated.

I dont know about Lissa ever being a competent sage. Her growths just dont act fast enough to fix her bases.

Lucina (Avatar) is probably there because of Veteran. She catches up pretty quick and has pretty nice bases due to her OP parents. I feel like she deserves to be pretty high. Tiki is (imo) not that good. Considering her availability. By the time she joins, all your other dudes are beating her in like, everything. She deserves to be lower.

[Shadow Mir]

So why was Kellam decided to be put in C tier? In the playthrough I'm doing right now, I think he might be able to go in the B tier.

Personally, I think Kellam's already too high as it is.

Healers simply don't really have a good role in the fight, especially dedicated healers. What with how one can swap with pair up and heal with an item when convenient, a healer doesn't really give much.

Also, their supports help just about no one. The game also flat out gives you Libra and Anna.

Maybe, but you're addressing someone who has a firm belief that healers are important, ja?

[Legault!]

I dont know about Lissa ever being a competent sage. Her growths just dont act fast enough to fix her bases.

We still don't have reliable growth rates to my knowledge, and while Lissa's base stats are indeed poor, she has nice approximate growths and really solid promotion bonuses (including +4 mag, +3 speed, and +3 defense). You don't exactly need killer magic to be an effective sage in Fire Emblem, seeing as enemy resistance is almost always low.

Lucina (Avatar)

Wrong Lucina.

Tiki is (imo) not that good. Considering her availability. By the time she joins, all your other dudes are beating her in like, everything. She deserves to be lower.

Tiki's base stats are amazing and most units below her are pretty bad.

A related question I have is how exactly we're supposed to handle children Paralogues. Yes, I'm aware that the OP commits us to doing them ASAP, but when exactly should we expect units to get married? This is important when evaluating units like Tiki, who may in fact be recruited several chapters later than some of us expect. It makes discussing her relative quality impossible.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Legault!

[Shadow Mir]

A related question I have is how exactly we're supposed to handle children Paralogues. Yes, I'm aware that the OP commits us to doing them ASAP, but when exactly should we expect units to get married? This is important when evaluating units like Tiki, who may in fact be recruited several chapters later than some of us expect. It makes discussing her relative quality impossible.

I'm unsure. I'm also of the opinion that some of the children's Paralogues would be a bit hard to do ASAP (Gerome's Paralogue comes to mind).

Edited March 20, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[PKL]

I find Noire's and Gerome's paralogue the hardest (that Ive done). With Noire's being worse. And Legault, its not just about her magic. Her durability is like, worse than Miriel, so she wont be having a good enemy phase any time soon. This will in turn, affect her exp gain.

EDIT: Severa's is also somewhat difficult but Ive managed to do it right away in Chapter 14.

Edited March 20, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Legault!]

I find Noire's and Gerome's paralogue the hardest (that Ive done). With Noire's being worse. And Legault, its not just about her magic. Her durability is like, worse than Miriel, so she wont be having a good enemy phase any time soon. This will in turn, affect her exp gain.

EDIT: Severa's is also somewhat difficult but Ive managed to do it right away in Chapter 14.

Her durability is the reason she isn't a mid-B Tier unit. She's frailer than Lucius, but this is less of an issue in Awakening thanks to huge support / pair up boosts and cheap and plentiful stat tonics. "Competent sage" describes her well: fantastic staff wielder, great magic tank, great chip damager, can't take more than a couple of physical shots. I'm not saying she should catapult up the list; I'm just saying she's better than Kellam.

Children Paralogues are scaled in difficulty roughly according to when mothers are recruited, so Morgan and Owain have the easiest maps while Inigo and Gerome have the hardest.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Legault!

[Florete]

A related question I have is how exactly we're supposed to handle children Paralogues. Yes, I'm aware that the OP commits us to doing them ASAP, but when exactly should we expect units to get married? This is important when evaluating units like Tiki, who may in fact be recruited several chapters later than some of us expect. It makes discussing her relative quality impossible.

I agree this is something that needs to be determined better. Doing them immediately is not always a good idea since some will be pretty difficult to do until the player has beaten a few more maps. I don't want a specific order, but I do think we can group them all into a list of approximate time they can be considered to be done based on difficulty and how long it takes for the mother to get married (which usually works out anyway).

By the way, the information on the site for getting access to Paralogues is wrong. For example, it says Owain's can be accessed with access to Paralogue 9/10 (Cynthia/Severa), but the former is further away on the map and the latter is separated by sea completely. I need to post about this for Vincent to correct. EDIT: Looking again, I might actually be mistaken on this.

Morgan's and Kjelle's can be done immediately. Maybe Laurent's, too, but I haven't done that one since my first run of the game so I don't remember.

Owain's and Cynthia's can be done when you have access to them (after Ch 15, and if Lissa isn't married, after Ch 17 [i think] for Cynthia). Possibly Brady's as well (Ch 16), if we're willing to assume it's one-turned, since it's pretty tough otherwise.

The rest can all probably be done around Ch 16-18, maybe 19 for Noire, since I think hers is the hardest. I just did Gerome's after doing Ch 19 and, while it wasn't a cakewalk, I probably could have done it sooner. Nah's looks even easier in comparison.

As far as being relative to Tiki, I'd say they can all be done if not before access to her Paralogue, then at that time.

EDIT: Inigo might take longer since his mother is pretty hard to pair up and therefore takes longer than the others to get married. That's probably the only one where getting the mother married really puts it back.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Legault!]

Laurent's map can be done immediately. Depending on your levels and team, you might have to sacrifice the Goddess Staff, which is near-useless anyway. The rest of your analysis seems about right, Red -- you might be understating the difficulty of maps like Noire's and Gerome's on a sort-of LTC run though.

But there are more pressing concerns. Because this list is based on a "brisk" pace, there are no guarantees that all children will be acquired. Maybe you don't use Miriel enough. Maybe you don't use Sully enough. You almost certainly won't be using Olivia that much. I know the OP demands we use the children, but I'd just as soon cut them out entirely except for Lucina. It makes certain units (like Tiki) impossible to analyze.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Legault!

[Interceptor]

Kids are a problem for another day; it would be better to just leave them alone and fork the list if they are that difficult to deal with in terms of interactions with the parents. What would be the purpose of delaying Tiki's recruitment?