Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[BBM]

Sorry guys, I had to make an unexpected trip today that took the entire day.

Anyways, this is what I meant to say. I have no problems that Shinori didn't want to answer the question as to who his targets were. My problem is that he's trying to make it seem like a scummy question when it's not. If it could help reveal alliances, that's bad for mafia, so if Blitz is asking that question, that's hardly something to vote him for, is it? Yes, Blitz wouldn't (or shouldn't) have known his alliance at that point, but it was regardless a move with not very much future scum intent in it. Yet Shinori saw fit to try to reaction test Blitz for it... why? It just seems like him trying to make that vote out to be something great.

Cam is just generally apathetic to the point where I'm not sure why he plays mafia (sorry but it's true), and I'm kind of tired of attempting to get a read on him when he's shown that he just doesn't care all that much as both town and mafia.

[Xinnidy]

Does anyone know if you can change from 20ppp back to 40ppp in this new layout? Decided to look for it but to no avail. :l

Really? This was confusing? I wanted you to either change your vote or explain it (which is exactly what I said), because it looked like RVS. Anyway, since you did both of those things, it couldn't've been too confusing...

And yes I wanted you to post again. That's why I voted you with a "please explain or vote" note.

SB: (and Xinnidy: too, and maybe anyone else who has played this game more than me:) Can you explain why Xinnidy's lack of a post since the first one means that he didn't "have a chance" to change his vote? Really he could have done it at any time, because he could have posted at any time. If you skimmed the discussion between me and Manix about theory, one of the important points Manix made was that we should be holding people accountable for ED1/RVS votes... asking Xinnidy to explain his vote was essentially that--except, I knew it was RVS, so I threw in the bit about changing the vote. Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with asking someone to explain their vote, and backing it up with a vote (especially ED1, when the person has no other votes).

The thing that confuses me is mostly due to the execution in ED1, considering I provided the barest amount of content, and it's not like it has been too long a time since I was last active or was reading the thread without giving my opinion. From my perspective, I just plain wasn't there, I was sleeping from at least two hours prior to you voting me, and you could look at my profile to see around which time I was last on at your time. So I assumed you wanted something more or had some N0 log reason to vote me. Why? Because I think something like prodding/mentioning the person should be enough for that point of the game, and a vote's pressure can have better use on someone that you're discussing or did something possibly scummy you want to press on. Voting inactives for pressure/prodding tends to be ineffective and can keep you from putting pressure on more people, if my only OC experience is worth anything. Raising attention to someone you do find scummy and is inactive may not be a bad thing, maybe, but I don't think that's the case with the way you're wording things to me.

My read on Shinori is... confused. I don't want to lynch the same player D1 in two consecutive games (that's just not fun), but I'm aware that that is a reason which has nothing to do with Shinori's scumminess or lack thereof, and I'm having a hard time being objective as a result. Maybe I'll try to reread stuff later tonight, focusing on him, to solve that problem. (To clarify, right now I'm reading him null-to-slightly-town, but I'm probably being biased by silly meta reasons.) (Also this may account for "defending" Shinori, although I didn't intend to defend him.)

Considering the slower pace of forum mafia games, and how much can still happen in a few phases, I'd say the weight of lynching a player two D1s consecutively is pretty mitigated. It may be better than being nightkilled early for some, too, and is still a learning experience, so I'd breathe easier about it if you do find said player scummy.

Enough with giving opinions in a vacuum for this post:

My latter votes didn't really mean all that much, to be honest, Xinnidy. When there is this little concrete info to go off of, I'll toss a vote at things that make me feel uneasy, give me pause, something like that. I don't agree with the part of RVS which implies tossing a vote on someone for the sake of voting, but even small things can garner potential for a vote depending on what else is happening at the time. I voted Grassbridger because at the time, his vote seemed opportunistic. I switched it to BBM because he was overly harping over something that should usually be expected.

At the moment, I have to say I'm actually having some trouble following current talks. It looks like a back and forth over a misunderstanding to me, and I don't really have a concrete idea of where it's going just yet. On that note, not much has really changed since I posted last, so I'll leave my vote as is for now.

Then I will await great things from you.

That is to say, opinions, since I see you have the potential to pick up timely scummy things and otherwise, and lack of proper content can't exist forever unless everyone decides to be butts and go inactive. And conviction or change of opinions as BBM shows up and gives more content, as well.

This talk about shipping targets is flying over my head, to be honest. I don't think all ships must prove alignment otherwise after an OC night it'd be possible to find your likely partner(s if you're not sure) and get a lot of pseudo clears. And yet I think that's the only thing I can take with a grain of salt without going to the field of mad speculation. I'm going, for simplicity's sake, give little weight to N0 stuff for now, unless someone can convince me otherwise. That does give me a bit of re-reading to do, too.

@Cam: are you going to have some free time/check if the thread has enough content to do good stuff soon?

[Grassbridger]

Xinnidy: ok, sure, using profiles to see when people are around had never occurred to me. (This is only my second online game.)

[BBM]

Also, someone was saying something about how I was prodding Manix for being too logical or something. That's not what I said (or at least not what I meant to say). What I meant to say is- logic is something that can be shown easily by town or mafia because it's not actually scumhunting; it's just reasoning. So if a good chunk of Manix's posts just consist of that, they're not really posts that are helping town catch scum, just noise that looks good.

With that explanation of my previous opinion of Manix out of the way, my newer one is that his tone seems town to me. IDK I'm not good at catching scumnix, but not immediately interested in him anymore.

[Sunwoo]

Does anyone know if you can change from 20ppp back to 40ppp in this new layout? Decided to look for it but to no avail. :l

According to Jyosua, no, and it's apparently not coming back.

[Shinori]

I'd like for the people who are voting me to reiterate why they are voting me if they could please

[BBM]

I saw Blitz in here earlier and now he's not here anymore. >_>

Anyways I still really dislike Shinori's Blitz vote but I agree with Manix in that his reaction to the votes seems townie. He's consistently asking why people are voting him and trying to get the votes off, while simultaneously providing some content, whereas Scumnori normally sort of rolls over and dies after a certain point. I also sort of like the case against SB so ugh ##Unvote. That last post against Shinori was just an effort to explain my earlier thoughts; they're not what I was thinking of him at the moment of the post. Felt I should say that if people think it's kind of a 180.

I normally really really hate empty unvotes but I've been in a car for like 10 hours today and I'm just not up to mafia right now; sorry guys. I'll reread SB, Strege, and Scorri tomorrow, and hopefully by then, Scorri will have made another post.

[Strege]

Digging through the thread and I have a question for SB:

He improved from sitting there being useless with posts like this when there's genuine discussion going on. Shinori's attacked me with bad logic before as town (see Awakening, where apparently I was parked on someone for all phase when I'd only just subbed in a day ago) and I only said a bit. That's not to say I'm not watching him though.

To me it sounded way too much like you were defending Shinori there. What was the point in asking Xinn/scorri what there votes were for if you already knew? It's not like it would have generated much discussion besides a one word answer of "RVS", and asking lots of questions (particularly useless questions) is an easy way to look like you're contributing. Also way to bandwagon again, just sayin'.

Actually Grass, do you have a read on Shinori?

Where did you think it sounded like Grassbridger was defending Shinori?

[charlie_]

-->ok you can change your Shinori vote or explain it now

This, right after voting for Xinnidy. Kinda busy right now, but I think Ether is probably worth looking into as well, but right now I gotta blitz some homework.

[eclipse]

Mod announcement: Blitz's activity will be sporadic, and it's not his fault.

EDIT: Also, I can add migraines to my list of things wrong with me. I'll try to get votals out later.

Edited May 7, 2013 by eclipse

[Blitz]

sorry I wasn't around

strange circumstances happened

will try to post in an hour

[eclipse]

Before the photophobia gets out of hand. . .

Bananas (3): Grassbridger, Shinori, Strege

BBM (1): Ether

Grassbridger (1): Bananas

Ether (1): Xinnidy

Shinori (3): Balcerzak, Kay, scorri

Strege (1): Manix

No one: BBM, Blitz, Cam, Elieson

22ish hours remain. I might grant an extension, depending on how bad I feel tomorrow (hopefully this stupid headache will bug off).

[Blitz]

heya guys, back again for another bit (will be away tomorrow and the day after for continious strikes as a reaction to what happened on the 6th)

anyways, after reading, I realized my reads aren't taking me anywhere, so I thought I should say something about the people being attacked and voted for

At the moment, I have to say I'm actually having some trouble following current talks. It looks like a back and forth over a misunderstanding to me, and I don't really have a concrete idea of where it's going just yet. On that note, not much has really changed since I posted last, so I'll leave my vote as is for now.

this post of Ether did seem scummy, but then I realized, he is actually trying to do something productive, unlike me who feels the same way and is unable to do anything to do some scum hunting. So, even though I cannot say who is scummy and why, I can say that I think Ether is town.( for being in the same boat as I am)

BBM is slightly scummy in the sense that he said

You said earlier that it was just general Blitz stuff and not pertaining to this game... Omission is one thing, lying outright is another.

Of course people, including town, lie. My issue isn't with that- it's that Shinori didn't seem to have a reason for lying. If he were going to lie to me, why just out it randomly later? What strategic purpose does that serve? I feel like he was just trying to make that vote seem more than it was.

but then again, he sorta explained it his post, basically I find him slighty scummy, but I cannot explain why

though, from Shinori's point of view, I can sorta see why he would start his day voting me (heck, I planned on starting my day voting him for him ignoring me on N0) and if he was doing it to get a reaction, I do not think it is a bad way to do it. Reaction votes should be placed in such a way that they strike the voted person as something to confuse them and the N0 excuse is perfect for an RVS vote, so I do not think he is scummy for either voting me or keeping his vote on me. His Kay's hand wave to Kay was kinda weird though, but nothing much weird otherwise imo. (as in I do not find him scummy and yes I know another town read, but scum reads aren't coming to me)

I have no reads on Cam, who seems to be trying to live through the day by doing as little as possible and SB, who only has two posts on reads and everything else is filler

Next up Manix, there is something weird about him in the sense that he is sharing his picks more than anyone else, he already claimed two of his picks in the thread, unlike no one else.

Manix, care to explain why?

##Vote: Manix

also, I will try to do better the next OC phase

[Grace]

Next up Manix, there is something weird about him in the sense that he is sharing his picks more than anyone else, he already claimed two of his picks in the thread, unlike no one else.

Manix, care to explain why?

Collateral damage when explaining other points. And to be completely fair, I don't think it's as big a deal as you make it out to be. We don't know exactly who we are paired with, so it might be them, might not. And damned if I know what meaning the pairs have in the first place.

also if Cam doesn't pick up his game can I call a hypothetical vig to policy shoot him? It's really annoying that he can come into the thread and still not provide much content. At this rate I'd like Cam gone well before LYLO.

now to actually go and reread the thread and revise my vote, brb

[Grace]

eclipse: what's the deal with Elie? elieson.iso is completely blank and that's really not a good sign.

[Grace]

Okay gonna get people to explain their RVS votes in this post (if they haven't already said anything about them)

##Vote: Elieson

let's go

##vote SB

i don't take dat shit from nobody!

##Vote: Cam

how dare you have more HP than me

#Evict: BBM

No telling yet what the pairs are for; if they just factor into a few roles than I think we're just as likely to help mafia as we are town if we share the hints, so I'm in favour of holding onto them for now.

SHINODOOF

##Glomp: Shinori

Also candyland sucks I forgot to save I'm like weaker than SB now. :E

So BBM, Cam, SB, Strege, and Xinny; all of you state your reasons for picking your RVS votes as above.

[Grace]

okay I scanned all the iso's and I've determined a problem: I have literally no one that I want to push for being scum. over half the damn game i'm reading as null, some more scummy than others, others more townie.

there's also a number of inactives that i'm nullreading. i'm thinking possibly that scum are hiding in the inactives, and there might be one in the more active players but tbh i'm not seeing them right now.

Balcerzak/Kay/Strege/Ether need to give some opinions when they sift through the thread next. scorri as well but she's at least got something more topical than the others.

[Elieson]

Ok I'm here and actually aable to put a post together. Give me a little bit.

My phone's been essentially rendered useless, and you all know how much I rely on my phone to handle anything SF-related.

[charlie_]

Okay gonna get people to explain their RVS votes in this post (if they haven't already said anything about them)

So BBM, Cam, SB, Strege, and Xinny; all of you state your reasons for picking your RVS votes as above.

he had more HP than me in candy box

catching up, posting in a bit.

[Grace]

he had more HP than me in candy box

I wasn't looking for a joke answer, I was wanting something serious.

anyway sleeping now so bye

[charlie_]

And that was seriously my reasoning. Wow, nothing's happened today, gonna look into Ether now I guess.

How long do we have left in the phase?

[Bluedoom]

<3

[Elieson]

Situation: Phone is giving me an extremely hard time in any form of web browsing and data access (including Skype) due to weird iphones being gay and battery being bad. I'm also running a 102.3 fever (and I'm posting this at work while my boss is out). Blew a flat tire last night, and had to put one of our dogs down yesterday morning. Painted all day Saturday (which I wasn't expecting to do), worked a double on Sunday, and well yea that's been my weekend.

SB: I don't consider it bandwagoning if my reasoning is completely separate from everyone else's.

...wait, really? Bandwagoning? Nobody else has voted you since I voted BBM. I'm not jumping on anybody's bandwagon.

My read on Shinori is... confused. I don't want to lynch the same player D1 in two consecutive games (that's just not fun), but I'm aware that that is a reason which has nothing to do with Shinori's scumminess or lack thereof, and I'm having a hard time being objective as a result. Maybe I'll try to reread stuff later tonight, focusing on him, to solve that problem. (To clarify, right now I'm reading him null-to-slightly-town, but I'm probably being biased by silly meta reasons.) (Also this may account for "defending" Shinori, although I didn't intend to defend him.)

Asking people why their RVS votes are where they are? Well, as Manix discussed with respect to his BBM vote (that I jumped on him for), sometimes there is more to an RVS vote than RVS. And if not, then that person should change their vote now that there is actual content to make reads from. Which is what I was pointing out. I also asked scorri for other reads, still waiting on that.

For starters, doing a power-read of the thread gave me a whole bunch of back-and forth side picking arguments to well, pick a side on, only to see that they all resolved themselves. Woo.

This argument confuses me. Why are you not interested in a lynch simply due to a previous game. That's extremely weak, and although it's not really a valid form of defense, it's not a thought that has anything to do with the town wincon. Out of all the 8 pages I read through, this line stuck out to me most of all.

Okay, so what you're saying is that we don't hold people responsible for their actions in RVS?
And also what prompted you to subtly defend Ether as such?


Okay let's put it this way: Voting someone will put pressure on them, particularly if you vote to start pushing an RVS wagon. By not voting you don't get interactions and reactions from your vote, which doesn't progress the town wincon.

Because I've done the same exact thing he's doing right now and have no issue with it. I'm also aware that people here have a stupid obsession with RVS and I don't want people wasting their time wagoning Ether for something that's not inherently scummy. If he gives me some other reason to vote him, then I will, but I don't see any issue with this.

What's with this being painted as a "defense", Manix? This is shouting MISREP to me, especially during an early RVS stage like this.

lol at Manix finding me scummy before people had alignments

##Unvote, ##Vote: Cam

What was the point of making a jokepost instead of commenting on what Ether/Scorri/Manix said?

Your guess is as good as mine because I don't know if the mafia had their alignments (see role pm template in first post)

anyway I'm out right now and will respond to the rest when I get home

Note these posts in order; BBM is certain that people don't have alignments pre-game, and Manix is unsure of it. I feel like one of these might be a slip, more likely Manix than BBM due to wording (yes I'm the wording Nazi I know).

BBM seems to be hanging on and reacting to everything that happens. Meta tells me that this is a good thing, but meta is stupid. Still, if you're town, I guess you have no reason not to react to everything that comes your way, because you have nothing to hide. Color me unsure, but I'm not sure if this is something of a towntell or paranoid scumtell. (a little help, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease?)

SB.iso consists of 40% fluff, 50% Grassbridger tunnel, and 10% derp vote on Cam for not doing anything (which I guess is acceptable but demanding more from Cam and it not yielding anything is something you should sorta follow through with, IMO). Would not bang/10.

Collateral damage when explaining other points. And to be completely fair, I don't think it's as big a deal as you make it out to be. We don't know exactly who we are paired with, so it might be them, might not. And damned if I know what meaning the pairs have in the first place.

also if Cam doesn't pick up his game can I call a hypothetical vig to policy shoot him? It's really annoying that he can come into the thread and still not provide much content. At this rate I'd like Cam gone well before LYLO.

now to actually go and reread the thread and revise my vote, brb

More Manix fun. Is this really something that needs to be called out so early in the game? It's been almost one Day phase and you're already calling potshots as if you're the unanimously agreed on town-leader or something.

##Vote Manix

because even though my nose is extremely stuffy, I'm not feeling comfortable with Manix at all. He is (I've counted at least 4 instances) backing off of anything he says and any finger he points pretty much with one or two replies from his target, and that coupled with what I've quoted above doesn't strike me as town appeal. IF everyone can so easily dismiss your scumhunting cases, I question your ability to actually be hunting for scum.

[Kay]

1: I didn't say two different things. I didn't contradict myself. First two sentences already broken.

2: Implying people don't already have good content. What's SB done since? It's much later into the day phase by now I'm pretty sure my post saying that he hasn't done much is pretty legit.

3: Doesn't like my reaction to bbm but also didn't like bbm's reaction. I don't really see how that adds anything to a case. What did you specifically not like about my reaction.

There I defended it was pretty easy.

1. You indicated both that you were somewhat suspicious of Blitzy, and then that he wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary for him and your vote for him was purely random. Explain how this is not a contradiction.

2. It doesn't matter what he's done since. You did not pressure him for lack of content earlier because you had seen the future and knew he wouldn't post much later. That was on Page 3, it was not unreasonable for someone to have not made a content post yet.

3. I didn't like all the "BBM's not reading my post" "I don't know whether that was a slip or not" "Nah it wasn't a slip so he's skimming" posts, because it looks like you're trying to draw attention to BBM's mistake and make it look bad without directly accusing him.

I wasn't looking for a joke answer, I was wanting something serious.

anyway sleeping now so bye

I don't like how Manix is pressuring people to have real reasoning for RVS votes. Asking about it is fine but jokevotes at that point are not really scummy or anything.

This argument confuses me. Why are you not interested in a lynch simply due to a previous game. That's extremely weak, and although it's not really a valid form of defense, it's not a thought that has anything to do with the town wincon. Out of all the 8 pages I read through, this line stuck out to me most of all.

He already explained this. He's just admitting to possibly being biased because of it, not saying it's a legitimate argument.

[CT075]

Apathy to the game?

you're pretty spot on

Cam is just generally apathetic to the point where I'm not sure why he plays mafia (sorry but it's true), and I'm kind of tired of attempting to get a read on him when he's shown that he just doesn't care all that much as both town and mafia.

i suppose i do it because i find it fun

@Cam: are you going to have some free time/check if the thread has enough content to do good stuff soon?

yes i will once i finish my chinese project (due tomorrow) or potentially during study hall tonight

So BBM, Cam, SB, Strege, and Xinny; all of you state your reasons for picking your RVS votes as above.

it was pretty much an OMGUS; i was an idiot and didn't bother initiating OC with anyone N0 so it was just whoever came to my mind first

speaking of everyone calling me on a lack of content- i just handed in a big essay and i don't really have anything to do tomorrow so i should free up a little bit during study hall tonight so i'll see if i can't bring in something real