Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[Zkirsche]

what i'm seeing is there's some suspect behavior behind it. changing your opinion on a playerslot a lot just doesn't feel right to me, even if it was fully explained (which off hand, i'm not sure that's always the case).

and what about that post you made where you voted elieson? anything to say to what i said about that or what?

Having a couple of people go from most scummy to second/third most scummy is not a large opinion change on a playerslot.

It was a consolidation vote and nothing more. I wasn't happy with the lynch and I had my reservations about lynching Elie but a lynch needs to happen. Tbh I haven't been happy with any of the lynches except Blitz; and I obviously wasn't happy with his flip, so I probably need to be more vocal about my opinions but frankly I had nothing more than slight gut reads on any of them because I suck at early game scum hunting.

Also I dislike how Marth brought up his point about ninja doc when I don't see why it's that impossible? Ninja doc is just there to hide from scum and is reasonable. Moreso than ninja card swapper/Janitor. It's like he's trying to get towncred.

[Grace]

Having a couple of people go from most scummy to second/third most scummy is not a large opinion change on a playerslot.

yeah okay but what i'm saying is (from what i remember) that you didn't explain that explicitly, so hence it is easier to say later what you're doing now. (unless you can point me directly to something that says so, in which case i'll eat my words)

It was a consolidation vote and nothing more. I wasn't happy with the lynch and I had my reservations about lynching Elie but a lynch needs to happen.

pretty sure at that point we had to material to consolidate a lynch anyway, but i'll concede this. still not sure if i like the initial proposition of "giving him until D5" stuff but shrug

Also I dislike how Marth brought up his point about ninja doc when I don't see why it's that impossible? Ninja doc is just there to hide from scum and is reasonable. Moreso than ninja card swapper/Janitor. It's like he's trying to get towncred.

even though xinny was the claimed ninjadoc and has promptly been guiltied by the rolecop? k.

i can understand maybe if you were saying "I don't understand why he said that considering the circumstances of the guilty report", but this is dubious logic

[Zkirsche]

yeah okay but what i'm saying is (from what i remember) that you didn't explain that explicitly, so hence it is easier to say later what you're doing now. (unless you can point me directly to something that says so, in which case i'll eat my words)

pretty sure at that point we had to material to consolidate a lynch anyway, but i'll concede this. still not sure if i like the initial proposition of "giving him until D5" stuff but shrug

even though xinny was the claimed ninjadoc and has promptly been guiltied by the rolecop? k.

i can understand maybe if you were saying "I don't understand why he said that considering the circumstances of the guilty report", but this is dubious logic

In some cases I didn't, but that's what happened. Most people don't vote someone and then completely 180 after they've explained themselves so it should be obvious that I was still somewhat unhappy with them. In Marth and Shinori's case I have said repeatedly that I am suspicious of them since then (and I've been suspicious of Marth the whole game).

Not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

What are you talking about? I'm saying that it looks like Marth is trying to get towncred by saying that ninja doc is a stupid idea for a role when I don't think it is that dumb. I'll have to rethink my view on Marth a bit though as I'm not convinced that scum would have two of it's members claim ninja. They might have been trying to frame the watcher/tracker but I'm not sure.

[Grace]

What are you talking about? I'm saying that it looks like Marth is trying to get towncred by saying that ninja doc is a stupid idea for a role when I don't think it is that dumb. I'll have to rethink my view on Marth a bit though as I'm not convinced that scum would have two of it's members claim ninja. They might have been trying to frame the watcher/tracker but I'm not sure.

maybe i fail reading comprehension sometimes. maybe a lot, now that i think about it more

but okay let's try and bash this out. how exactly is marth saying "ninjadoc is a stupid role" going to give him towncred? basically what i was thinking was that what you were attacking for was on something that was a nullread by itself, but looking further, if you pushed the point that "I don't like the timing of this statement" or what have you i'd be more understanding

again, maybe i'm failing reading between the lines so feel free to clarify if i'm messing this up

[Grace]

like maybe you were already pushing that point i mentioned, and i'm just dum

[Zkirsche]

Look here's what happened:

Boron: "'sup guys Xin'dy isn't ninja doc"

Marth: "OMG I totally called that being a ninja doc was fishy."

Me: "Except ninja doc isn't fishy and stop trying to get towncred"

Do not ask me why posting that you called someone being scum is trying to give yourself towncred. I'm saying the call is made even worse by the fact that he used such terrible logic based on someone's role. So it's not just fishing for towncred it's fishing for towncred because of shitty reasoning.

Is that clear enough for you Manix? Also what does this mean:

still not sure if i like the initial proposition of "giving him until D5" stuff

Because I'm not sure what's going on with this sentence and it has something to do with not liking me so I care.

[Grace]

that thing was in relation to the elie votepost, fun context innit

[Grace]

also yes i understand what you're getting at now with the marth thing, i think i was defs failing reading properly

[SB.]

I don't think there's really a point to waiting. Cam's not even bothering to defend himself, which is pretty standard fare for him regardless of alignment, so bleh.

Sounds like you're waffling here BBM. Anyway.

Nice scan Boron. Sadly, being the genius I am (not), I inspected Marth. Needless to say, he's not guilty, and I really need to remember those stupid Ninja modifiers. This is probably stupid reasoning but with Ninja modifier!Xinn being scum I'm inclned to think that Marth is town based on that. Not really sure what this post by Shadoweh is meant to be. Explain please? Random theory time: scorri was scum!courier(+something else probably) who pretended to give info. I'm pretty sure most of her hints were about scum, so it works out.

Shinori's attitude really isn't great, I agree with there Manix. Marth's post here doesn't fill me with confidence since he seems to imply that one of BBM and I are scum due to having too much vote control combined with Blitz's mayor, but doesn't press it and that's pretty flawed by itself since mine doesn't even give me any vote manipulation (it just enables lynches, how many times do I have to restate this) and BBM's role is really weak so I can see him having all of those spellcards.

Not gonna vote Xin so that phase doesn't end early.

[Shadoweh]

It's sarcasm of the highest order that is lost on you philistines. It means unless the scum were redirected by someone, and no one's claimed that kind of power except apparently the scum, that with me taking responsibility for the extra kill it means Paperblade was killed by scum and scorri was scum. I'm saddened you make me explain the joke in plain sight.

Hasn't Marth been a claimed ninja since literally forever? You sounded like you suspected me and BBM, yet you went for the useless role? By the way, I remember asking this yesterday and you not answering, you said this post shows why Boron is clear, I ask again what scorri telling BBM there was a godfather has to do with Boron being cleared.

[BBM]

The point was that the GF was a role GF. For that to be useful, there would have to be a Rolecop that the town needs to have. Except Xinny scanned as Godmother to the Rolecop anyways so I have no clue what's up with that.

Scorri wasn't a Courier. It kind of sucks that I'm the only one still alive who got an info message, but it wasn't a Courier message like Shinori sent with his potions. There was a clear difference between how the two were referred to by Prims in my PM. Shinori's was referred to as a "message", and Scorri's was referred to as "knowledge". Even though Scorri was scum, I'm pretty sure her info was legit, or referring to it as "knowledge" is bastard modding.

I'm not sure what Kirsche is trying to say in his latest group of posts, and I don't like how he fence-sits on Marth's apparent attempt to get towncred by saying "but mafia wouldn't have two people claim Ninja".

SB- I thought Cam was scummy, I just didn't think that him not coming to defend himself was an indication of either alignment.

[Sunwoo]

I wonder if Xinnidy actually returning godmother in my scan was a host error. Whether she returned the godmother part or not, the fact that her results came back as something besides doctor means that she lied about her role, so that was the real important part. Or maybe Xinnidy was an alignment cop "godmother" that I could detect, and maybe there's another role "godmother" out there who returns faulty results to me but would have scanned as mafia to SSG? I dunno. But I don't think this speculation is going to help me find scum.

Okay, so, I'm satisfied now that Shadoweh isn't scum, since it's been confirmed that there was scum between scorri and Paper. I'm leaning towards scorri being scum because of the claimed circumstances.

Marth, why are you still trying to rolespec stuff? You sound like you're trying to push suspicion onto one of BBM or SB over their spell cards and Blitz being a confirmed mayor. Also, ninja doc by itself doesn't really sound like a "dumb" role to me. Yes, you did have your suspicions on Xinnidy the previous phase, but a lot of it seemed to be over her claim and I don't think I like that. Speculating about an arsonist isn't really contributing either.

Shinori, if you're "not getting lynched," then please scum hunt harder. "If Xinny is scum then both BBM and Marth look bad from her ISO." Okay, how? A bit more clarification would be nice?

Speaking of Shinori, though, his interactions with likely-scum!scorri are interesting. He passed messages about finding scorri suspicious on N1, but never did (or really said) anything about it until scorri called him out on it. And although scorri did vote Shinori, she was quick to say that the reaction test on BBM gave him town cred and moved her vote. Took a while for that vote on Shinori to get there, too. And I don't think Shinori ever voted scorri. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.)

[Strege]

Also her card was some weird night action copier? Like if she used it on baldrick and he was tracking someone, the next night she'd get a track result on him ( that AND she'd obvsly get her scan result) furthermore if someone she has scanned dies at night, she gets an extra shot of this card.

To whom does the indicated pronoun refer, Bluedoom?

I might find something useful to say later, but for now I'm not dead and that's just lovely.

[Shinori]

Shinori, if you're "not getting lynched," then please scum hunt harder. "If Xinny is scum then both BBM and Marth look bad from her ISO." Okay, how? A bit more clarification would be nice?

Me and BBM already partially talked about the BBM thing. Xin'dy used a spell card on him after I did my reaction test and said it was like some sort of protection. Which probably wasn't true and was more likely something else. and she did it for town cred. I don't know. Either that or he's a scum buddy and they needed an excuse to use it in public without drawing attention.

Speaking of Shinori, though, his interactions with likely-scum!scorri are interesting. He passed messages about finding scorri suspicious on N1, but never did (or really said) anything about it until scorri called him out on it. And although scorri did vote Shinori, she was quick to say that the reaction test on BBM gave him town cred and moved her vote. Took a while for that vote on Shinori to get there, too. And I don't think Shinori ever voted scorri. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though.)

I've been saying Scorri was scummy since D1 and I never really dropped my scum read on her. But it wasn't like I had a super good case and the few things I did kind of state about her were generally hand-waved by people, paperblade in specific when we talked in our Neighbor QT. No I don't think I ever actually voted Scorri but that was generally because I was pressing other people. Mostly Neko or kevin at those times I believe. And if you are gonna say that, a lot of people were quick to say that the reaction test I gave to BBM gave me town cred. I think Scorri was just wary of pushing someone who obviously seemed really town cause if I flipped she would look hella bad.

[Shinori]

As for the marth thing. Xinny hinted and even stated a "FoS" suspision against marth but never actively pursued it. That was stated on day one and I don't think she mentioned him much after that and actually I'm not entirely sure about her reactions towards when Marth was being voted a lot but I'm pretty sure she didn't vote him during that time.

[Shadoweh]

Scorri didn't talk much in the actual neighbour QT, most people were using irc or private messaging (which is really neat on this forum btw. ) He did say 'do whatever' when I asked if I should shoot kirsche immediately after replacing in :V

Oh yeah, I remember now. Essbee is the one who claimed a governor that autolynches the person the next day?

[BBM]

Essbee claimed a spellcard that allows his target to be lynched at deadline even if he's not at majority, as long as he has more votes than anyone else.

[BBM]

As for the marth thing. Xinny hinted and even stated a "FoS" suspision against marth but never actively pursued it. That was stated on day one and I don't think she mentioned him much after that and actually I'm not entirely sure about her reactions towards when Marth was being voted a lot but I'm pretty sure she didn't vote him during that time.

Marth also attacked her for quite a while. The reasonings there were weak, but he was still attacking and then voting her for a good chunk of time. I don't think that's bussing personally.

[Strege]

thx for the spellcard mate

[Bluedoom]

@ Strege- Him means Baldrick

@Boron: Well hey look at the past few phases and tell me what's so different about people's actions? We just uh, find someone to wagon, get on the wagon and then they end up town. I think rolespec has helped me way better than da normal scumhunting.

Anyway, besides Xinny, hmmm:

I know I'm not scum, Boron's def not scum, I think Shinori's interactions with Neko and Scorri are more likely to be town and his BBM reaction test implies that too. Vig shot by Shadoweh implies she's town who killed scorri more likely.

Kevin is still probably that harmful third party we've heard about; I don't think his actions throughout the game have been screaming town at all; there was that night post in N1 where I thought he might be better but considering the circumstances and that SSG scanned him as non-mafia 3rd is more likely.

That leaves three more: BBM, SB and Manix.

I do think that SB and BBM having roles related to votes, with a flipped Mayor is weird. I think that gives us too much vote control; in a game of 24 players the ratio of town : non-town is 18:6. I think that's too much vote control.

Gut says Manix is prob scum though; I feel the play is kinda... lazy? I dunno how to put it.

Idk, I'm kinda suspicious about what happened to paperblade on N2; failed action and all, only person we know who claimed to have targeted paperblade is Boron, I've proved that I didn't target paper N2 because I swapped cards that night, and Scum!Xinny isn't responsible since he's the bus driver (unless he had a card that could screw up actions.)

Question: Who else targeted Paper N2?

Eitherways the only ones *I* can say are not scum are me, Shadoweh and Boron. I'll brb later; gonna be busy for some hours

[Shadoweh]

This might be a weird question, but what does a Mayor do?

[BBM]

I don't understand what you mean by Shinori's interactions with NNR. NNR was town, and Shinori and him were attacking each other for a while. That makes Shinori look town?

Scorri and Shinori both also claimed to have targeted Paperblade N2. And Scorri probably had more to her role than just the info, since I can't see how spreading info about mafia roles is helpful to them.

A basic Mayor is generally just a doublevoter, but Blitz said that his role was "a lot stronger than my ghostvote" so there was probably more to it.

[Grace]

time to be unlazy

shinori's interactions with nnr actually don't read town to me, because he literally tunneled on nnr d1 with no good reason, and then wanted to "clear" him d3 with (presumably) the red potion, which eventually went to bbm

and speaking of the red potion, you yourself said

So bbm is either town or the best poker player I know.

when the reaction test didn't actually prove much at all? like if you're gonna say "this potion will tell me your alignment" it's basically a loaded question that forces the person in question to take it without much forethought because just the act of taking it would show alignment (assuming it was). so i still wonder how that premise was reached in the first place. (yes i know i took it for granted at the time, but i've been out of it most of the game so shrug)

also the black potion. i'm gonna dissect this.

Take that Proto. When I talked to Paper about various things I mentioned that I had something that would be useful for a townie under pressure and that would be that potion there.

yeah okay, at first glance this looks okay but

As for why I gave proto the potion. I was wary of cult and various other issues and was more or less. I also originally wanted to use that potion on someone else. But I figured that would answer a lot of the questions that people were more wary about in the first place.

like what the heck. would you seriously say "oh this potion will help you under duress" only to then show it was a kill potion? seems very weird to me.

[Grace]

ACTUALLY MAJOR THOUGHT

All day actions (except Shinori's) that are part of somebody's role are now unusable for the rest of the day.

so remember this from back on d3 and stuff happened (like the nnr daykill), which was assumed to be either factional/strong-willed? what if. what if maybe, just maybe, the kill came from shinori himself? his dayactions weren't blocked, so it's a possibility i'm considering

[Grace]

although that has it's own problems with the established scenario, because then it's assuming shinori is probably the third and hence kirsche doesn't line up with that due to the cop report

i'm probably wrong on that last bit but hey i'm just going with what i think of at the time