PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

That's what battle saves/bookmarks are for. I can preview the RNG before I actually accept it.

If it works for you, that's fine, but a lot of people find that quite tedious. I know I'd rather just check how much damage I take in exchange for the extra skillslot and saved time.

Bookmarks don't help.Once you do it,you have to exit the game.A bookmark deletes once you enter it again

Using a digital copy or Save Dongle, you can backup saves that have bookmarks and restore them after each reset, thus using Bookmarks like battle saves. It's a nice tactic for Lunatic+ earlygame and was almost required for -Def earlygame before Int's Cht.3 strat came around, but otherwise takes upwards of a minute per reset and that's not something I care to do every time one of my units is about to enter combat.

[TheRealBlueBlur]

He means he can Battle Save right before entering combat in Casual Mode, and if one of his units dies he resets from that save, which is really the equivalent of save state abuse.

Well, if you do that, then what's the point of Miracle? You can just reset whenever you want and make room for a more useful skill. Seriously, abusing Battle Saves is not really a good argument for using Miracle at all.

With Miracle, you can get the best Vengeance results possible (1 hp = 39 extra damage with an 80 hp character).

TBH, save state abuse on casual mode really breaks Apotheosis. I can get almost full control of anything and everything that happens, and that is why Apotheosis isn't really a "true" test of skill and tactics unless you play on classic mode.

Edited October 28, 2014 by TheRealBlueBlur

[zaknafein]

Sniper Severa. Who should be the daddy?

Stahl!Severa = Astra, Luna, LB, GF, Faire

vs.

Virion!Severa = Deliverer?, Vengeance, LB, GF, Faire

She has her choice of (Laurent, Gerome, Yarne) for a partner.

[burgerkong]

Sniper Severa. Who should be the daddy?

Stahl!Severa = Astra, Luna, LB, GF, Faire

vs.

Virion!Severa = Deliverer?, Vengeance, LB, GF, Faire

She has her choice of (Laurent, Gerome, Yarne) for a partner.

It depends on what you want and what the rest of your team looks like.

Stahl!Severa I think is overall better thanks to Luna access and Astra, but he's generally a much-sought after father compared to Virion.

Virion!Severa has a higher Speed mod & can hit 75 Speed with a +3/+4 Speed Pair Up partner (Berserker, Assassin, etc.). Stahl!Severa needs AS+2 to hit 75 Speed.

Both have very high Skill, and can reach 100% DS fairly easily with an Assassin partner.

I'm personally running Stahl!Severa @Sniper with Lon'qu!Yarne @Assassin (these pairings were done for main game rather than postgame purposes, though I will be running through Apo), they achieve 100% DS if you run AS+2 on both. I haven't done the calcs, but Virion!Severa might be able to get away without AS+2 since she has 1 more Skill.

Gerome or Yarne as physical support are obviously-good choices, but Laurent as a Sage has some utility since Apo enemies generally have a lot worse Res, so he might deal more damage overall especially to enemies like the Throne Berserker.

It really comes down to your team comp; do you have someone who hits 75 Speed, enough Magic users to go around, etc.?

Edited October 28, 2014 by burgerkong

[Rydia]

Sorry if I disappeared, I had real life issues to deal with and I've been mostly offline. Anyway, I'm planning for Lun+ Apo, that's why I'm ditching most of my previous pairs and follow your suggestions on everything.

Also, The Avatar is a woman and still single, she's a Def+/skl- because when I started everyone told me it was the better one to deal with lunatic plus... and at least for this time (It's my first lun+ run) I will go with it until the end. She's a sorcerer with: Tomefaire, Astra, Galeforce, Ignis and Lifetaker, the last one will be replaced with LB as soon as I get my first one. I'm planning to marry her with Brady to pass down Rightful King, Lucina will marry Laurent as you suggested, GErome and Yarne will be supporters and for the next time I will definitely have a complete list of pairings and stats. Just one question: where can I see the bonus a certain class/character offers when paired up? It'd definitely help me if there's a list or something, otherwise I will check as I can. Thank you everyone for all the suggestion and the support so far.

And I'm sorry if most of my posts were completely messed up, I was writing them way after midnight and I'm not a person who can resist the urge to sleep too well...

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rydia

[burgerkong]

Here's the list of Pair Up bonuses:

http://serenesforest.net/awakening/miscellaneous/pair-up/

Fem Avatar should definitely be included in your endgame team. Another Galeforce with access to every class is useful regardless of her mods.

Keep in mind though that Rightful King isn't a very good skill; it's more consistent to just procstack . If you just want Rightful King Morgan for personal reasons though, then that's fine, and Avatar is definitely a great partner for Brady (though probably not as a Sorc).

Posting pairings and everything will likely take reshuffling and some calculations to finalize your ending team, so take your time.

Edited October 28, 2014 by burgerkong

[Rydia]

Oh, thank you! I will save the link immediately!

Also... fem avatar will definitely be included. Which class do you think would be the best to pair up with Brady? So far I'm reaching endgame pretty much unpaired (even if Donnel!Kjelle, Maribelle!Lucina and Ricken!Laurent (with DS+ from Miriel) are already included in my team and stat capped with a general gale, astra, -faire, luna build. Laurent is currently leveling up and he's got Tomefaire, Aggressor and Dsp+ so far.

I will check everything and try to make better calculations, thanks again!

Also, from the few pairings I want to bring down in apo... what do you think is the best build for Chrom and Maribelle? I'm planning Bow Knight (because counter)!Chrom with LB, Aether, bowfaire, Aggressor, (?) and I don't know if I should pick Valkyrie or Sage Maribelle (Lb, galeforce, tomefaire, DSp+, Lifetaker). Now checking the numbers I'm almost more tempted with Valkyrie because it offers speed and one more point in res... I'm still such a noob when it comes to pairing optimization @.@'''

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rydia

[Czar_Yoshi]

With Miracle, you can get the best Vengeance results possible (1 hp = 39 extra damage with an 80 hp character).

TBH, save state abuse on casual mode really breaks Apotheosis. I can get almost full control of anything and everything that happens, and that is why Apotheosis isn't really a "true" test of skill and tactics unless you play on classic mode.

Really? I can get +47 with an HP tonic, a little math, and swapping out Miracle for a Faire. It's a pretty big difference. And I can also get "full control" of everything that happens by simply watching my numbers and making sure the worst-case scenario always leaves me alive.

Anyway, I'm planning for Lun+ Apo

Just to get this straight: There is no significant difference between Normal Apo and Lunatic+ Apo (just a forge on one Bow) other than whether or not you're good enough to drag your chosen Asset/Flaw through earlygame. So the Lunatic+ bit isn't actually that important and most of the advice in this topic applies normally to you.

Keep in mind with Avatar x a Galeboy that you've got the option to pass down GF from the Galeboy and some other female-only skill from Avatar (like Lancefaire). It might be more useful than RK.

Brady would like a Dark Flier support.

[Rydia]

Just to get this straight: There is no significant difference between Normal Apo and Lunatic+ Apo (just a forge on one Bow) other than whether or not you're good enough to drag your chosen Asset/Flaw through earlygame. So the Lunatic+ bit isn't actually that important and most of the advice in this topic applies normally to you.

I heard that, the difference should be a difference between attacking from a different distance to avoid your counters whenever possible and a forge (or a couple of forges) on a weapon... anyway, I'm planning to read the whole topic and get more inspiration from it. Like... now I'm starting to consider a faster father on Severa...

Keep in mind with Avatar x a Galeboy that you've got the option to pass down GF from the Galeboy and some other female-only skill from Avatar (like Lancefaire). It might be more useful than RK.

That's a great point, actually... I just have to decide what to do with Morgan, especially because I will definitely use him as a front-liner... I will definitely take a look, thanks for the suggestion!

Brady would like a Dark Flier support.

Sage Brady - Dark flier support? I like it... I just have to check the skills but even in this case I'd probably go with a simple tomefaire/astra/Galeforce/LB and a filler-support one for both. I like regenerative skills but I will have at least 2-3 staff-rallybots I will try to keep out of range anyway....

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rydia

[burgerkong]

I heard that, the difference should be a difference between attacking from a different distance to avoid your counters whenever possible and a forge (or a couple of forges) on a weapon... anyway, I'm planning to read the whole topic and get more inspiration from it. Like... now I'm starting to consider a faster father on Severa...

Sage Brady - Dark flier support? I like it... I just have to check the skills but even in this case I'd probably go with a simple tomefaire/astra/Galeforce/LB and a filler-support one for both. I like regenerative skills but I will have at least 2-3 staff-rallybots I will try to keep out of range anyway....

Keep in mind that Chrom!Brady!Morgan's mods lend him to a magic role better than physical, but in the end it's up to you.

With a 0 Skill modifier, I wouldn't recommend going for a 100% DS pair with him and just go for a cookie-cutter Sage (Luna/Galeforce/Aggressor/Tomefaire or Ignis if you want procstack if you're running him with dedicated support), but the joy of Morgan is that he can feasibly play any role you want to.

Dark Flier & Sage is one of the best and most standard builds since the beginning of this game's optimization, it's just always good considering how nicely the Pair Up bonuses work together, and how good magic is. Astra is definitely inferior to Luna in this case, and procstacking with Ignis is an option for that last skill slot (I'm personally running Luna/Ignis/GF/TF on my own Female Avatar).

[Rydia]

Keep in mind that Chrom!Brady!Morgan's mods lend him to a magic role better than physical, but in the end it's up to you.

With a 0 Skill modifier, I wouldn't recommend going for a 100% DS pair with him and just go for a cookie-cutter Sage (Luna/Galeforce/Aggressor/Tomefaire or Ignis if you want procstack if you're running him with dedicated support), but the joy of Morgan is that he can feasibly play any role you want to.

Since I'm pairing Lucina with Laurent and I don't have other magical kids so far (Nah, Gerome, Yarne, Severa and Kjelle will definitely be physical) Maybe I should try to pick a magical father for Noire and make her a sorcerer or something other kind of blasting magical unit? They could be my second magical pairing between the kids and... I'm currently checking Noire's possible fathers to make her a good supporting unit. Libra and Henry seem to offer her an amazing mag boost and even if there's a bit of class overla libra has a lesser stat negative mod to offer- I always feel bad for whoever marries Tharja, kinda (X°D), and I never used Noire too much but maybe I could try to make them a good team. Or, at least, a decent one?

Oh, I guess I will enjoy a good night o lurking/sleep and return here when I have more energies, thank you for the support!

Dark Flier & Sage is one of the best and most standard builds since the beginning of this game's optimization, it's just always good considering how nicely the Pair Up bonuses work together, and how good magic is. Astra is definitely inferior to Luna in this case, and procstacking with Ignis is an option for that last skill slot (I'm personally running Luna/Ignis/GF/TF on my own Female Avatar).

I'm going to keep this in mind. Luna, Astra/Renewal, Tomefaire, Galeforce and Ignis until I get Limit Breaker and then replace Astra with LB and go on with it. I mean, you all have much more experience than me on optimization, I almost always went with 'I enjoy the game and I finish it enjoying the story' X°D

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rydia

[Czar_Yoshi]

I heard that, the difference should be a difference between attacking from a different distance to avoid your counters whenever possible and a forge (or a couple of forges) on a weapon... anyway, I'm planning to read the whole topic and get more inspiration from it. Like... now I'm starting to consider a faster father on Severa...

It's just one weapon that you'll almost never even get hit by (a Bow in a Warrior's second slot). There are no skill differences, once you've ground your team up Apo plays exactly the same.

The metagame has changed a lot since this topic started. You'll just wind up getting contradictory and confusing advice if you go back too far (I wouldn't dig much farther than last June, and it's better to ask questions about anything you see than take it at face value).

Severa's good fathers are Virion, Lon'qu, Stahl, Vaike and Ricken. Of those, Virion and Lon'qu are the only ones who are notable for being exceptionally fast, but Vaike is by no means slow (Spd just isn't his selling point).

[Rydia]

I checked a couple of things and I think I will run with Lon'qu!Severa Hero (same strenght than virion, highest speed and sklmods. Even if he loses a bit in def and res as far as I heard apo units are supposed to be more glass cannons who can break down anything than units who can endure lots of turns.) and I'm really tempted by Virion!Noire - Sniper even if she may not be super-optimal :/ But at the same time Libra!Noire is smiling at me because Morgan wants a magical partner.

Oh, my, so many possibilities.

Now I have to leave and go to work but I will definitely return and try to put down a better list when I'm back, it's much easier with the sources you offered me! Also, thank you for the warning, Czar!

Edited October 29, 2014 by Rydia

[Czar_Yoshi]

Just sayin', but none of those Noires have Galeforce so they'll have to be hard supports, and hard supports without Agg are slightly... Underwhelming. Not saying you can't leave it off her, but it's not a very common tactic.

If you want to run Lon'qu!Severa as a Hero, I'd advise giving her LB/GF/SF/Vengeance/All+2 and pairing her with Virion/Stahl!Gerome@Warrior (LB/Agg/BF/All+2/Hit+20). That pair will hit 75 Spd with very good DSes.

[isetrh]

I was thinking about my planned Frederick!Nah set (LB/Deliverer/Pavise/Aegis/Lifetaker), and PavGis seems sort of underwhelming. It's two skill slots for halving the damage, a little bit more than half the time (53 Skill). That's just over a quarter of the damage on average, and inconsistent to boot. Seems like I would be better off with Kellam!Nah with Renewal and AS+2 instead of PavGis. Renewal is going to completely outclass PavGis unless I'm depending on RNG to survive, since I will have to assume that PavGis will never activate in order to guarrantee survival. Am I missing anything?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well, having both of PavGis allows you to switch out which one you use depending on what the current enemy composition looks like (it's the same principle as with Breakers). But Renewal will definitely see a more reliable effect.

Kellam does give you Pass. That's a point in his favor (on my Lunatic all Risen run, Pass was a lifesaver. Dunno how effective it is on postgame L+ Risen).

[isetrh]

Well, having both of PavGis allows you to switch out which one you use depending on what the current enemy composition looks like (it's the same principle as with Breakers). But Renewal will definitely see a more reliable effect.

Kellam does give you Pass. That's a point in his favor (on my Lunatic all Risen run, Pass was a lifesaver. Dunno how effective it is on postgame L+ Risen).

I didn't think of Pass, but that's a big point in his favor too. Definitely Kellam then. Thanks!

[Rydia]

Just sayin', but none of those Noires have Galeforce so they'll have to be hard supports, and hard supports without Agg are slightly... Underwhelming. Not saying you can't leave it off her, but it's not a very common tactic.

But then again with Severa being physical and Lucina being his aunt Morgan would have no magical pair. Kjelle wants a physical unit with her, same goes with Severa... but I guess I will check tomorrow in the morning how Ialways do. I thought with a couple of skills and a forged Celica's gale she could be a good partner but if you think it's a bad idea I will try to figure out something better for Morgan.

[Czar_Yoshi]

First off, there's nothing preventing 3rd gen Morgan from marrying his aunt. You can totally do that.

Second, there's this really great unit called Cynthia...

Third, if you want a female hard magical support, use Nah.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Owain_the_swordsman]

First off, there's nothing preventing 3rd gen Morgan from marrying his aunt. You can totally do that.

Second, there's this really great unit called Cynthia...

Third, if you want a female hard magical support, use Nah.

I think he means he needs male units to pair with his kjelle and Severa.

Also,why would you use nah,someone who should usually be physical unit,over noire,who's mother gives her a +3 magic stat

[Rydia]

And, after a good sleep here I am, finally awake.

First off, there's nothing preventing 3rd gen Morgan from marrying his aunt. You can totally do that.

True, but then I'd have Laurent unpaired- I can't give him to a physical unit because that'd be a complete waste of his LB-62 mag stat and a non-galeforce pair is just a waste. Cynthia is another great unit, she's basically unscrewable and if Sumia could marry a generic villager she'd probably still be good (I guess Fred is her worst bet?) but I was planning to pair her with Owain, another male unit who'd otherwise being without magical pair-up.

Cynthia'd be a great partner- but I was considering her for Owain. Every father but Vaike offers him a massive magic boost, he probably wants his sage class with his galemom passing him down the skill he needs.

If you want to run Lon'qu!Severa as a Hero, I'd advise giving her LB/GF/SF/Vengeance/All+2 and pairing her with Virion/Stahl!Gerome@Warrior (LB/Agg/BF/All+2/Hit+20). That pair will hit 75 Spd with very good DSes.

I was planning to go with Virion!Yarne but at this point it could be overkilling in speed? Lon'Qu Seera with LB and ALL+2 hits 60spd, tonic pre battle will grant a 62 and I'd rather pair her with a berserker for postgame because it'd increase her attack and her spd while warrior increases str and def- and with a basic +3 we'd already hit 65. Even with a slow dad Gerome hits 54 spd and Kellam!YArne 56 (I only picked slow fathers, I'm not picking them thought), they still add an addictional +3 to speed, don't they? Plus S support it's a +5 and she hits 70 if I understood how to make calculations correctly.

The missing 5 comes from rally heart and rally spectrum skills? I'm sorry if I posted the whole thing but I'm trying to understand if I do this kind of things correctly. Also, thanks for the skill suggestion, her parents are almost stat capped and I was getting ready to grab her (Yes, I'm really slow and I often over-grind units using paragon and having them, paired up, taking care of Champions of Yore 3 by themselves over and over until they reach an high level...)

Third, if you want a female hard magical support, use Nah.

Nah? I was definitely going physical with her, how do you make her a strong magical support?

Edited October 30, 2014 by Rydia

[Czar_Yoshi]

The issue at present is Morgan's pairing. Morgan is in need of a magical wife. Kjelle and Severa have plenty of options.

Nowi has a +1 Mag mod and passes Nah Mage, which gives her a lot more good options for magical supports than Noire. Notably, it's impossible (barring Avatar) to give Noire both Tomefaire and a +Spd class that can use it, while Nah can do so easily with Henry's Valkyrie.

[Rydia]

Henry as Nah's father, I will keep him in mind. Also, it may sound a stupid question but is speed so essential in a support unit? Also I admit my ignorance, I thought Noire was more magically inclined than Nah.

Edit: Anyway, I will likely leave Libra with Owain at this point.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Rydia

[burgerkong]

Henry as Nah's father, I will keep him in mind. Also, it may sound a stupid question but is speed so essential in a support unit? Also I admit my ignorance, I thought Noire was more magically inclined than Nah.

Edit: Anyway, I will likely leave Libra with Owain at this point.

The most important thing about dedicated supports is access to skills that work from the back of a Pair Up. Aggressor is perhaps the most effective one, which is why Males, especially ones without Galeforce like Laurent, Gerome, & Yarne, have such important niches in an Apo team.

This lack of Aggressor is also why girls without Galeforce like certain Nahs, Kjelles, and Noires end up less effective in the support role. Certain other skills will help make up for it (-faires, Dark Mage auras, AS+2, Str+2, etc.), but they will never reach the same damage output as their male counterparts.

The final important thing is their Skill stat, since higher skill = higher DS%. This is also somewhat tied into class distribution and skills, since certain classes (i.e. Sniper & Assassin) have particularly high Skill cap AND grant Skill+ pair up, but only certain pairings with certain mods can achieve 100% DS outside of Lucina with her DS+.

Libra!Owain is fine, especially since Libra is one of the least-sought after fathers.

Edited October 30, 2014 by burgerkong

[Rydia]

The most important thing about dedicated supports is access to skills that work from the back of a Pair Up. Aggressor is perhaps the most effective one, which is why Males, especially ones without Galeforce like Laurent, Gerome, & Yarne, have such important niches in an Apo team

I know that, at least, and that's why I spent enough time with every worthy male unit to learn it, just in case. I have to admit I don't like Dread fighters too much but I use it on Chrom because it's his only class (If I'm not wrong) that offers a magic+ and Sage Maribelle really benefits it. With S support it's a +1(base),+2(support level),+3(Because Basic DF Chrom has 38max mag) and... well, LB Maribellen has 58 base Mag and enjoys a +6. With Tomefaire she reaches a good +11, let's add Galeforce and a Forged Celica's Gale, all+2 and Ds+ she turns in a powerhouse as leading unit. I tried many combinations but Her leading and Chrom Supporting as DF is the best so far. (with a tonic she easily reaches Mag71, add a Rally spectrum and a rally heart and she can run up to 77)

This lack of Aggressor is also why girls without Galeforce like certain Nahs, Kjelles, and Noires end up less effective in the support role. Certain other skills will help make up for it (-faires, Dark Mage auras, AS+2, Str+2, etc.), but they will never reach the same damage output as their male counterparts.

The saddest part is I always neglected both Noire and Nah but now I feel somehow forced to use them planning for Apotheosis...Never had issues with Kjelle, thought, because she's always been a galegirl (but in one file where I went for the lolz and her father was Chrom...)

Libra!Owain is fine, especially since Libra is one of the least-sought after fathers.

This was suggested more than once, that's why I started considering it because Owain is strongly magical, has access to gf and many magical classes- hitting 60 mag with sage. and why I was planning to pair him with DF Cynthia. Severa will either go with Gerome or Yarne, Kjelle will pick the other one, and Laurent will marry Lucina. My only issue is who could be a better Pair for Morgan at this point between Nah (I'm giving Henry!Nah a look now but I'm not too convinced...) and Noire knowing the other will be paired up with Kellam!Inigo. For a moment I considered to marry Inigo to have a Physical Morgan but then again Brady will be in need for a magical wife...

Also, not really relevant but I'm a woman :P

Edit: May sound silly... but what if I pair up Morgan and Lucina, ignoring the fact they're related, and I leave Noire and Laurent on a bench of sort increasing the number of healers and ralliers in my apo-party? It'll be Chrom+19 units so...

Chrom+Maribelle+Avatar= 3 first gen

The kids minus Laurent and Noire: 10 second gen units

Olivia with Special Dance

2 units with rally heart

2 units with Rally spectrum

(Or Olivia as a Bride to have one more staff user AND one extra rally heart unit. Or Olivia, 1 extra unit with RH and 2 with RS Plus Kellam to increase Olivia's defence with S-support)

Edited October 30, 2014 by Rydia