PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[LetheTheRaptor]

Thanks for the input! I agree that avatar skills only do so much because yeah, there's only 4 slots. So is Aether, Ignis, Arms, Gale and LB good for a Grandmaster cynthia!Morgan then? Would that be a good skillset to work with?

[Diabeasty]

You'd probably want a faire instead of Armsthrift unless you just really dislike maintenance. Aether+Ignis is fine, though Aether+Luna is usually the preferred option. (I've heard Ignis is better outside of Apotheosis.)

[LetheTheRaptor]

I don't often play Apoth though. So I prefer Arms for ingame.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Speaking of Nah, how do you feel about Vaike!Nah, at least in comparison to Henry!Nah? Ignoring the fact that Vaike!Nah is locked to physical and is almost always married to Inigo, how close do you think they are in overall power?

Ignoring the one support most likely to be taken into consideration when building a postgame team? That's a pretty tall order.

However, I do like Vaike!Nah. She lacks a good deal of versatility, but has strong Hero/Wyvern support options for a more focused set and some nice skills for training.

Hello again Serenes! It's been a while!

I have a question about Lunatic avatar wives ATM.

A while ago I decided to marry Cordelia to my +Def -Lck M!Mu and I like the file a lot, but I feel Severa wastes the avatar's genes (I do love red-headed Morgan though)

I'm thinking Cherche might be better, as Gerome could do very well with avatar genes. I'm good enough at Lunatic now that I don' have to go +Def either and I've done a +Skl -Lck avatar and a +Str -Lck avatar. I could also marry Sumia (Whom I addore, but I don't really like her hair on Morgan) and go for a +Mag avatar.

In the end, should I keep my avatar married to Cordy, or remake the file married the Cherche or Sumia? Does Gerome or Cynthia get more out of the avatar in lunatic mode?

One last thing. I usually go for 2 avatar kids to spread AT+Ignis+Other goodies around more, but I'm also thinking of Chrom!Cynthia!Morgan. Would having one less uber kid in exchange for Aether on Morgan be worth it?

Sorry for the wall of text. Thank you for the help!

So I'm assuming you're doing this for ingame and postgame is either a secondary concern or non issue, OK?

Severa doesn't really care about Avatar's classes because Cordelia's class set is perfect for ingame already. However, this also means that Cordelia's class set makes her one of the strongest 1st gen suitors for Avatar- I consider her to be his best wife in vanilla Lunatic, followed closely by Nowi. Also, Severa will love you if you manage to give her a +Spd Avatar for a father- she can make good use of it both ingame and postgame. Spd is a pretty good asset for Lunatic ingame as well.

Marrying Chrom!Cynthia works out well postgame (particularly if you're running +Skl), but ingame it's not that great of a choice. For starters, Cynthia's Paralogue is a pain to reach- you need at least one other child Paralogue (usually Severa's) to get it in any reasonable amount of time, and she'll be at best one chapter behind Lucina and many chapters behind everyone else in terms of supports gained. You can certainly do it, but it's not optimal.

If you're going for a different first gen marriage, Cynthia will be overall more useful than Gerome, but Lucina won't have a Veteran husband as a result. Gerome himself might do well, but he's basically Yarne with a better starting class and worse growths (not to mention a later-joining and less useful mother). Overall I think I'd go with Sumia and just have Lucina and Morgan fight with their siblings at A (consider what you'll do with Chrom if Avatar takes Sumia. Maribelle and Olivia require a bit of effort to get good passdown stats, and Sully locks their kids out of Peg, which comes with both GF and two excellent final classes).

If you are going for postgame, Chrom!Cynthia is the strongest option there by far. If you don't want to do that, both Sumia and Cordelia will perform well, but you won't be able to play with a full team using them (only matters for Apo).

You'd probably want a faire instead of Armsthrift unless you just really dislike maintenance. Aether+Ignis is fine, though Aether+Luna is usually the preferred option. (I've heard Ignis is better outside of Apotheosis.)

As a GM (40 in both Str/Mag bases) Ignis will often always be better in terms of raw damage. Outside of Apo, though, Aether/Sol might be a more appealing procstack if you want to do one.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[LetheTheRaptor]

Thanks for the post! I mostly play ingame, and Apoth. is a 2nd option if I feel like playing it. I think I'll actually marry Sumia!Lucina with a +Skl avatar because she's easier to reach, and a Lord Pairup w/ DS+ Sounds great for my avatar! Thanks for the input!

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you do that, you'll want to save as many of the early Paralogues as you can for building their support (not 1 though, Rescue is too useful) and the Seed of Trust from Renown.

[Diabeasty]

Ignoring the one support most likely to be taken into consideration when building a postgame team? That's a pretty tall order.

However, I do like Vaike!Nah. She lacks a good deal of versatility, but has strong Hero/Wyvern support options for a more focused set and some nice skills for training.

Alright, thanks. I was second guessing myself a little, I've been grinding a team with Vaike!Nah, who was going to marry Fred!Inigo and wasn't sure if i wanted to start over or not for the sake of using Henry!Nah instead. Though if I did do that, I'd have to use Gregor!Laurent over Ricken!Laurent (probably not a huge deal) and marry Noire to Inigo. Speaking of that, I actually don't know how a sniper x wyvern lord setup would play out, has anyone ever tried it?

[Czar_Yoshi]

It wouldn't be the fastest, but it would be pretty strong.

Two other points about Vaike!Nah: Hero doesn't boost Str, so using one as a hard Sage support will have the same effect as using it to support a physical class. Also, she's got General, which gives pretty good DSes (AF, 50 Str cap and a +5 Str mod? Sounds good to me) if you don't mind the Spd.

[Noah25648]

So what are the niches of male and female Morgan?

I suppose it's...

Male Morgan = Rightful King, Galeforce, +11 Strength, +10 Magic, +11 Speed, and Aggressor; minor stuff is Conquerer and Chrom being only candidate to offer sibling for male Morgan

Female Morgan = Aether; Minor stuff is Shadow Gift and more sibling options for female Morgan

Idk...is there anything else for female Morgan? :s

[Diabeasty]

Hmm... Henry!Nah is starting to become more and more tempting. I like general purpose stuff, and having another great magical support seems like it might be better. Launching Fred!Inigo at people with Noire sounds like fun, but I'm not quite sure if Fred!Inigo is fast enough as a wyvern lord. Without a +spd pair up bonus, he sits at 63 speed I believe after rallies and tonics. I'm not really all that knowledgeable on the lower speed thresholds for apotheosis, so I'm not really sure if that's enough...

[Czar_Yoshi]

So what are the niches of male and female Morgan?

I suppose it's...

Male Morgan = Rightful King, Galeforce, +11 Strength, +10 Magic, +11 Speed, and Aggressor; minor stuff is Conquerer and Chrom being only candidate to offer sibling for male Morgan

Female Morgan = Aether; Minor stuff is Shadow Gift and more sibling options for female Morgan

Idk...is there anything else for female Morgan? :s

They're more to do with the parents, actually. Other than that, the most important two are that Morgan-M can marry Lucina and Morgan-F can get away with much slower classes while still packing 75 Spd (thanks to being able to marry a Berserker).

Hmm... Henry!Nah is starting to become more and more tempting. I like general purpose stuff, and having another great magical support seems like it might be better. Launching Fred!Inigo at people with Noire sounds like fun, but I'm not quite sure if Fred!Inigo is fast enough as a wyvern lord. Without a +spd pair up bonus, he sits at 63 speed I believe after rallies and tonics. I'm not really all that knowledgeable on the lower speed thresholds for apotheosis, so I'm not really sure if that's enough...

60 is the minimum acceptable Spd for non-challenge run Apo- any less and you'll have to constantly watch your back to make sure you're not failing to double mooks. Fred!Inigo has a 0 Spd mod and Wyvern comes with 38, so with Rallies and a tonic he does hit 63.

Male Wyvern Lords are a little less common than female ones because they can't marry Berserkers, and Wyverns really like Berserker supports. They're still powerful and perform nicely for damage and Mov, but they're not at their best.

[Diabeasty]

Hm. in terms of pairings for Wyvern Lord Fred!Inigo, Hero does push him past 65 speed. But at the same time I'm not sure how much I really need to care about that, I believe literally every other character in my team has 65 or higher. So having one unit that's slightly slower than the rest probably wouldn't hurt at all. (Gaius!Noire is still going to hit 69 speed regardless) Sniper would add more damage and SKL, and would be able to attack from 3 range. That sounds like it could be better to me.

[Czar_Yoshi]

The threshold to hit isn't 65, it's 60. 55 is where most mook's Spd caps out, and it's the minimum needed to not be doubled by Thronie. 66 is a threshold, but it's for not being doubled by Anna, not for doubling anything.

[Diabeasty]

Alright, thanks for correcting me. There are only a couple 60 speed enemies but I figured one of them being really annoying was enough to warrant having 65 speed as an ok number to shoot for if I can't get any higher.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Actually, the only ones with exactly 60 are the Invincisorcs.

There are several more 59s (64) and also several 70s (66) so one down or one up would still give you a lot of thresholds.

[Flying Shogi]

Ok, here's my team for Apotheosis and I'd like a second opinion on it.

Olivia!Lucina x Frederick!Gerome

Stahl!Severa x Virion!Laurent

Donnel!Kjelle x Gregor!Yarne

Gauis!Noire x Ricken!Owain

Henry!Cynthia x (+Mag-Res) MU

Lon'qu!Brady x Vaike!Nah

Henry!Cynthia!Morgan x Chrom!Inigo

Just a few things to keep in mind:

• Olivia is already married to Chrom so that's set in stone
• Orange highlight means All Stats +2 even though it's listed in the notes column but I just wanted a reason to add color to it

Here are the calculations for these pairings:

Debating if I want Owain as permanent support or semi support. If permanent, Libra will be his father if not, Ricken remains.

At this point, I only have one double Galeforce pair in the form of Morgan and Inigo. I don't know how that will affect the wave(after the Sorcerer wave) with FalconKnights and Paladins as every unit besides the Rally units will be attacking after I bait a Paladin. I usually take this wave out in one turn so I don't have to worry about being attacked. Not sure if I can do that with one double GF pair.

On the bottom you see the Rally units I plan on using. The ones with the black background are the Rallies they come with. I'm not good with unit positioning so I need 2 pairs of them.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Magician Lugh

[Ownagepuffs]

Looks workable. Only questionable choice is Freddy!Gerome. I don't see Stahl anywhere. Stahl is much better for Gerome than Frederick is.

You have a second double gale with Noire x Owain, don't you?

[burgerkong]

Looks workable. Only questionable choice is Freddy!Gerome. I don't see Stahl anywhere. Stahl is much better for Gerome than Frederick is.

You have a second double gale with Noire x Owain, don't you?

Stahl is Severa's father in Lugh's pairings.

Ok, here's my team for Apotheosis and I'd like a second opinion on it.

Olivia!Lucina x Frederick!Gerome

Stahl!Severa x Virion!Laurent

Donnel!Kjelle x Gregor!Yarne

Gaius!Noire x Ricken!Owain

Henry!Cynthia x (+Mag-Res) MU

Lon'qu!Brady x Vaike!Nah

Henry!Cynthia!Morgan x Chrom!Inigo

Debating if I want Owain as permanent support or semi support. If permanent, Libra will be his father if not, Ricken remains.

At this point, I only have one double Galeforce pair in the form of Morgan and Inigo. I don't know how that will affect the wave(after the Sorcerer wave) with FalconKnights and Paladins as every unit besides the Rally units will be attacking after I bait a Paladin. I usually take this wave out in one turn so I don't have to worry about being attacked. Not sure if I can do that with one double GF pair.

On the bottom you see the Rally units I plan on using. The ones with the black background are the Rallies they come with. Since I'm not good with unit positioning so I need 2 pairs of them.

You have a full team & presumably Olivia, so I wouldn't worry about having too-few actions per turn. You also have 2 Galepairs, you missed your NoireXOwain pairing. You appear to lack any Staffbots though, so be aware that you don't have a safety net if one of your units fails to kill (though I guess your Sages can run a Rescue staff each).

All your pairings are fine, though I'm unsure if the Hero and Sage pairings are that good.

Heros compliment Sages fine while in the back (+Skl & +Spd are appreciated), but in the case of Male lead & Female supporter like Brady X Nah, Nah would want the second turn because you want Brady in the back as much as possible (back unit gets to attack twice as much, hence Brady in the back = much more damage). Sages don't really offer Heros anything outside of Skl.

The reason Sniper X Sage is considered good is because Snipers have extra utility in attacking from 3-range for kills if you get your procs/Dual Strikes in, otherwise it's safe and significant chip against tough enemies like Anna and Thronie Berserker. Hero lacks that extra utility, which means it's probably worse than running Dark Flier or an equivalent +Mag +Spd support if you have it.

Switching around Nah & Morgan (so Inigo X Nah and Morgan X Brady) allows you to maximize your Pair Up bonuses and let Morgan run Dark Flier, allowing Brady to still hit 75 Speed while increasing his damage.

As for Owain, he has Galeforce, so there's really no reason not to use it. Ricken however is NOT necessary at all if you want to run Owain in a Galepair, though he's one of the best fathers for him. If you don't have any other place to put Ricken, keep him with Owain, but if you desperately need him for someone else, then feel free to run Libra!Owain. Just keep in mind the mod clash with Sniper X Sage, which will kind of gimp Owain's damage output (Noire will be doing pretty poor damage as the Support, so you may miss kills if the enemy has Aegis+).

I would honestly run Dark Flier!Noire in this instance given that the pair is a Galepair (and switch Severa to Sniper if you still want the Sniper X Sage pairing), but that's ultimately up to you. Switching Owain with Laurent is another option (letting Noire stay in front all the time while still maintaining your Galepair).

+Mag/-Res is a pretty unfortunate Asset-Flaw combination. The mods clash directly, so you end up with less Mag and Speed than if you had gone -Def.

Regardless, if you run forged Braves and just play smartly, you shouldn't have any problems with the team currently outlined, so feel free to just run that if it's for aesthetics or personal preference.

You also didn't detail which skills you were going to run, so feel free to add those too :P

[Ownagepuffs]

I'd like to add that Bowfaire Warrior Ricken!Gerome is as strong as General Frederick!Gerome, except with much more accuracy and all the good that comes with bows. Your damage output would still be higher with Ricken!Gerome as support because Warrior gives higher str than General on pair up. Feel free to put Libra on Owain and Ricken on Gerome.

Frederick!Gerome really, really underwhelming.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'd like to add that Bowfaire Warrior Ricken!Gerome is as strong as General Frederick!Gerome, except with much more accuracy and all the good that comes with bows. Your damage output would still be higher with Ricken!Gerome as support because Warrior gives higher str than General on pair up. Feel free to put Libra on Owain and Ricken on Gerome.

Frederick!Gerome really, really underwhelming.

Not to mention TF, Mag+2 and a +3 Mag mod. He's not Laurent, but he's actually the second best hard magical support out there (not counting Avatar, of course). Very nice for multipurpose teams. I've been considering adding him to my list of cookie cutter pairings for a while now (and I'm also using him in my 100% DS team).

[Ownagepuffs]

Yeah Ricken!Gerome is one of those odd pairings you wouldn't think about. Same for Ricken!Inigo (who I honestly consider *the* best Inigo). A magic dad on a physical unit? Yes.

I'm all for adding Ricken!Gerome to the cookie cutter list. Same for Ricken!Inigo. Stahl reminds me of Noish as a dad and Ricken reminds me of Azel.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Ricken!Inigo is pretty fun too, yeah. Hit+20 for Berserker and Luna is nice, and just for fun he's got all three Faires for Dread Fighter.

I consider him to be mostly eclipsed by Libra!Inigo though, who trades Hit+20 for Hex or Anathema (still pretty close) along with 1 more Str and Vengeance over Luna. Normally the two procs are pretty much equal, but Berserkers have such low Skl that their Luna rates generally stink and Vengeance's 100% activation becomes more of an edge.

Of course, both of them can make nice Sages as well. They're also both great candidates for Vaike!Nah (General for physical, Hero for either). Think about it, both your lead and support unit are in 50 Str classes...

On the same theme of units who generally get overlooked, Stahl!Owain is another odd case of mixing magical and physical parents and getting a hybrid result. He'll have 1 Str and 2 Mag (the same as Libra!Inigo, actually) with roughly the same class set as Ricken!Owain- very nice for doing whatever you feel like. I know being able to run multiple sets isn't exactly the best as far as Apo is concerned, but it's super fun for normal postgame.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Flying Shogi]

You have a full team & presumably Olivia, so I wouldn't worry about having too-few actions per turn. You also have 2 Galepairs, you missed your NoireXOwain pairing. You appear to lack any Staffbots though, so be aware that you don't have a safety net if one of your units fails to kill (though I guess your Sages can run a Rescue staff each).

I don't know if I will have room for Olivia if I use all the children and 4 Rallly units. I didn't use all the children in a previous file and I find that Olivia wasn't that useful when I did bring her.

As for Owain, I'm not sure if I will be running GF on him because I don't know if he is worth it as a lead. For support only:

1)If Ricken is his father, he gets Luna in addition to Hit + 20 and DG+.

2)If Libra is his father, I get Anathema.

In all honesty, I don't think it'll matter much but on the off chance that I need Owain to attack, he'll at lease have Luna if Ricken was his father.

Heros compliment Sages fine while in the back (+Skl & +Spd are appreciated), but in the case of Male lead & Female supporter like Brady X Nah, Nah would want the second turn because you want Brady in the back as much as possible (back unit gets to attack twice as much, hence Brady in the back = much more damage). Sages don't really offer Heros anything outside of Skl.

I plan on using Nah as a permanent support. I'm a cheap and lazy player so I run as much AT as I can so I only have to forge weapons once for units.

Switching around Nah & Morgan (so Inigo X Nah and Morgan X Brady) allows you to maximize your Pair Up bonuses and let Morgan run Dark Flier, allowing Brady to still hit 75 Speed while increasing his damage.As for Owain, he has Galeforce, so there's really no reason not to use it. Ricken however is NOT necessary at all if you want to run Owain in a Galepair, though he's one of the best fathers for him. If you don't have any other place to put Ricken, keep him with Owain, but if you desperately need him for someone else, then feel free to run Libra!Owain. Just keep in mind the mod clash with Sniper X Sage, which will kind of gimp Owain's damage output (Noire will be doing pretty poor damage as the Support, so you may miss kills if the enemy has Aegis+).

I would honestly run Dark Flier!Noire in this instance given that the pair is a Galepair (and switch Severa to Sniper if you still want the Sniper X Sage pairing), but that's ultimately up to you. Switching Owain with Laurent is another option (letting Noire stay in front all the time while still maintaining your Galepair).

That is interesting... I remember running a Dark Flier and Sage pair and I did like their damage output so I'll try that again.

+Mag/-Res is a pretty unfortunate Asset-Flaw combination. The mods clash directly, so you end up with less Mag and Speed than if you had gone -Def.

Regardless, if you run forged Braves and just play smartly, you shouldn't have any problems with the team currently outlined, so feel free to just run that if it's for aesthetics or personal preference.

I didn't like that -3 Def modifier for Morgan so I ran +Mag-Res. I'm pretty happy that I was still able to hit 75 speed with this asset and flaw combination.

You also didn't detail which skills you were going to run, so feel free to add those too :P

Shameless copy and paste.

[spoiler=Skills]

Olivia!Lucina @ Sniper

LB

GF

Luna

Aether

RF/Bowfaire

Frederick!Gerome @ Paladin

LB

Aggro

DG+

AS + 2

Str + 2

Stahl!Severa @ Hero

LB

GF

Luna

AT

DG+

Virion!Laurent @ Sage

LB

Tomefaire

Aggro

AS + 2

Mag + 2

Gaius!Noire @ Sniper

LB

GF

Luna

Bowfaire

AS + 2

Ricken!Owain @ Sage

LB

GF

Luna

Tomefaire

Aggro

Henry!Cynthia @ Sage

LB

GF

Luna

Tomefaire

AS + 2

Shou @ GM

LB

Tomefaire

DG+

AT

Aggro

Lon’qu!Brady @ Sage

LB

GF

Luna

Tomefaire

Aggro

Vaike!Nah @ Hero

LB

AT

DG+

Axefaire

AS + 2

Donnel!Kjelle @ Paladin

LB

GF

Luna

AT

Swordfaire/Lancefaire

Gregor!Yarne @ Hero

LB

AT

Axefaire

Aggro

AS + 2

Henry!Cynthia!Morgan @ GM

LB

Luna

Ignis

AT

GF

Chrom!Inigo @ Hero

LB

GF

Luna

AT

Axefaire

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't know if I will have room for Olivia if I use all the children and 4 Rallly units. I didn't use all the children in a previous file and I find that Olivia wasn't that useful when I did bring her.

As for Owain, I'm not sure if I will be running GF on him because I don't know if he is worth it as a lead. For support only:

1)If Ricken is his father, he gets Luna in addition to Hit + 20 and DG+.

2)If Libra is his father, I get Anathema.

In all honesty, I don't think it'll matter much but on the off chance that I need Owain to attack, he'll at lease have Luna if Ricken was his father.

Apo has 20 deployment slots. There are 13 children + Avatar (7 attack pairs, 14 units), and Chrom is force deployed, leaving you with five other slots. Most people bring Chrom's wife for an 8th attack pair, two Rallybots and two Staffbots, but you can bench Chrom's wife for Olivia in the last slot if you want to.

GF on Owain will see you more benefit than anything you'd have to leave it off for unless you've got 100% DS and your numbers for getting a certain KO are extremely tight (I left it off him in my 100% DS team, but I had good reason to). So if you don't know what you want the replacement skill to do (and I mean very specifically), GF is a better bet. And your listed set for Owain is pretty standard, there's not much good stuff he's lacking.

Leaving it off is definitely OK sometimes, but if you are going to drop a GF I recommend doing it on Noire to open her up to a wider range of fathers.

To look at things in a different light, think of GF not as an offensive skill but as a mobility skill. Your units typically start their turns very clustered together so your Rallybots can hit them all. Even with Rallies Heart/Mov and the occasional Deliverer, 8-Mov lead or +Mov support, there are only going to be so many enemies you can reach from where you start out, and odds are there will be fewer enemies than you have attacks. Having two GFs in one pair gives you 1.5x the movement range of your non-double Galepairs, allowing you to reach enemies that are further away and increase your efficiency of kills per turn. It's pretty nice.

[Sorin]

If I were running a MaMU(Spd+Lck-)!Severa with a Libra!Sage!Inigo, what class should Severa be to best compliment it?