PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

Henry as Nah's father, I will keep him in mind. Also, it may sound a stupid question but is speed so essential in a support unit? Also I admit my ignorance, I thought Noire was more magically inclined than Nah.

Noire is a very good example of mods not being everything.

Spd doesn't matter in the back, but pairup boosts do. Nah can get a +Spd class that uses TF, Noire can't.

I was planning to go with Virion!Yarne but at this point it could be overkilling in speed? Lon'Qu Seera with LB and ALL+2 hits 60spd, tonic pre battle will grant a 62 and I'd rather pair her with a berserker for postgame because it'd increase her attack and her spd while warrior increases str and def- and with a basic +3 we'd already hit 65. Even with a slow dad Gerome hits 54 spd and Kellam!YArne 56 (I only picked slow fathers, I'm not picking them thought), they still add an addictional +3 to speed, don't they? Plus S support it's a +5 and she hits 70 if I understood how to make calculations correctly.

75 is the threshold for doubling every enemy in the game.

That Severa has 42(base) +6(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +3(pairup) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) =75 Spd. Since Severa typically is one of your best boss killing units, she's probably the most important one to hit 75 with, and this is one way to do it.

You might want to check the sample pairup bonus calcs at the bottom of this page if you're not sure how pairup bonuses work.

True, but then I'd have Laurent unpaired- I can't give him to a physical unit because that'd be a complete waste of his LB-62 mag stat and a non-galeforce pair is just a waste.

Sage x Sniper works better than it sounds. Laurent could go well behind a Donnel/Gaius!Noire.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Rydia]

hat Severa has 42(base) +6(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +3(pairup) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) =75 Spd. Since Severa typically is one of your best boss killing units, she's probably the most important one to hit 75 with, and this is one way to do it.

So... basically every pair-up would grant her a 75 spd, I like it. Lon'Qu Severa will be, suggestion on the skills to pass down from her father?

Noire is a very good example of mods not being everything.

Spd doesn't matter in the back, but pairup boosts do. Nah can get a +Spd class that uses TF, Noire can't.

But if I plan to use her as a Morgan-support it doesn't matter too much, does it? As a slow father I always compare Kellam first (he offers her a wonderful -3 spd) she'd still hit 30+ spd aka provide a +3 boost... So I have to admit I don't quite get it. Also, I know the lack of TF is kinda bad on Noire *sigh*.

But now I have to ask you something: Libra (Who will go to Owain, I'm just using an example) Noire's stats are 31,51,44,44,42,33,42 as a sage, Virion!Noire's stats as a sniper are 42,34,50,44,42, 40,32... if I pair her up, ignoring the class bonuses, aren't speed bonuses supposed anyway to be the same? That's something I honestly don't understand.

Sage x Sniper works better than it sounds. Laurent could go well behind a Donnel/Gaius!Noire.

I will take a good look at this... I may make her a Sage!Morgan's sniper. He'd have galeforce and... she wouldn't but it wouldn't bother me too much. (?)

I know Gaius!Noire'd be the best but I want to find a way to pick between full optimization and something I like. And while I'm open to almost every suggestion Most Tharja pairings make me uncomfortable... and Gaius!Tharja somehow is the cherry on the top of the uncomfortable zone. If I can make her a pro-support sniper without touching Gaius I'll be happy... (And it's not I go all fangirling and OTP OTP about this, my favorite Gaius Support is with Cherce but I know it'd be a terrible waste of father-potential and I place him in better places if I can)

Aaand- just married Lon'Qu and Cordelia, one step closer to have Severa in my team.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Rydia

[Czar_Yoshi]

You're still forgetting class pairup boosts. Hitting 30 base in everything for a pairup is given (unless it's a GK with a negative Mag mod).

Noire as a hard support is incapable of having both Tomefaire and a class that can use it that gives +Spd. Nah isn't. Here's a comparison.

Henry!Noire@Valkyrie (LB/All+2) gives +7 Spd and has 42(base) +5(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +11(CG) = 82 atk Dual Strikes.

Henry!Nah@Valkyrie (LB/TF/All+2/Mag+2) gives +7 Spd and has 42(base) +3(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +5(TF) +2(All+2) +2(Mag+2) +2(tonic) +11(CG) = 87 atk Dual Strikes- a whole 5 mt up on Noire with the same pairup bonuses. Who do you think is better?

Basically, you shouldn't be worrying about the support's non-Atk/Skl stats. What you should be worrying about is their skill pool and what ending class they'll choose. Noire could get TF if she wanted to outdamage Nah, but then she doesn't have a +Spd Tome-using class.

[Rydia]

I probably don't understand completely how pair up works but now I can't stay around the pc, do you mind if I write down later a pair-up sample totally random so maybe you can tell me if I got it correctly?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Sure, go ahead.

[zaknafein]

What do you guys use to plan out your DS%, speed, and attack values? I'm surprised nobody threw together an excel sheet or google doc.

In a smaller Apotheosis squad, would one want to prioritize 100% DS over raw damage? Specifically, its for a +str Lucina!Morgan(Sniper) & Fred!Inigo. I think I can hit 100% DS if I make Inigo an assassin, but he can also pull off the +hit berserker.

[Czar_Yoshi]

My brain.

I put together a table in Notepad for when I was making my 100% DS team, but it doesn't reflect Defender so it's not perfect.

Atk over DS really is a matter of personal preference and depends to some degree on how inclined you are to wing it with strong units vs plan out all your battles ahead of time. Prioritizing Atk is probably a good thing if you have a lot of staffbots or aren't 100% sure of your ability to not make tactical errors under pressure, prioritizing DS becomes more of a good idea the longer you spend building your team.

[zaknafein]

That Severa has 42(base) +6(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +3(pairup) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) =75 Spd. Since Severa typically is one of your best boss killing units, she's probably the most important one to hit 75 with, and this is one way to do it.

Am I missing something? I see where all the numbers come from except the pair up. From that link with the pair up calculations, the only way to receive a +3 spd is to pair up with a non-spd pair up.

Before I finish this spreadsheet can someone double check this:

Sumia!Lucina(Sniper) spd:

40(Sniper base)

+5(Sumia mods)

+10(LB)

+10(Rally)

+8(S Support+Berserker pair-up)

+2(tonic)

= 75 Spd

Edited October 31, 2014 by zaknafein

[burgerkong]

Am I missing something? I see where all the numbers come from except the pair up. From that link with the pair up calculations, the only way to receive a +3 spd is to pair up with a non-spd pair up.

Before I finish this spreadsheet can someone double check this:

Sumia!Lucina(Sniper) spd:

40(Sniper base)

+5(Sumia mods)

+10(LB)

+10(Rally)

+8(S Support+Berserker pair-up)

+2(tonic)

= 75 Spd

The above calcs are correct.

Czar was illustrating that Lon'qu!Severa can hit 75 Speed threshold with AS+2, regardless of Pair Up partner, hence the +3 Speed Pair Up bonus. Any higher is overkill.

[zaknafein]

Maybe it's easier if I just showed a SS.

It turns out going +str -res came to bite me in the ass. Sniper Morgan and Zerk Inigo come out with 74 spd due to -res giving her -1spd.

If I swap Inigo to Assassin and drop either Luna or faire for All+2, Morgan can lead with 75 spd and Inigo can 100%DS lead, but I'll lose out on the Zerk's high str cap.

I could give Assassin Inigo Virion or Lonqu to guarantee they both lead with 75, but I don't know if that's necessary.

Lonqu would give the pair 100% DS all around in exchange for Luna and +hit. Virion retains +hit and gains +2skill.

Both would lower Inigo's lead phase damage, but I can limit his targets to low profile enemies to mitigate the loss.

[Owain_the_swordsman]

The issue at present is Morgan's pairing. Morgan is in need of a magical wife. Kjelle and Severa have plenty of options.

Nowi has a +1 Mag mod and passes Nah Mage, which gives her a lot more good options for magical supports than Noire. Notably, it's impossible (barring Avatar) to give Noire both Tomefaire and a +Spd class that can use it, while Nah can do so easily with Henry's Valkyrie.

*cough cough virion cough*

[burgerkong]

It turns out going +str -res came to bite me in the ass. Sniper Morgan and Zerk Inigo come out with 74 spd due to -res giving her -1spd.

If I swap Inigo to Assassin and drop either Luna or faire for All+2, Morgan can lead with 75 spd and Inigo can 100%DS lead, but I'll lose out on the Zerk's high str cap.

I could give Assassin Inigo Virion or Lonqu to guarantee they both lead with 75, but I don't know if that's necessary.

Lonqu would give the pair 100% DS all around in exchange for Luna and +hit. Virion retains +hit and gains +2skill.

Both would lower Inigo's lead phase damage, but I can limit his targets to low profile enemies to mitigate the loss.

Inigo definitely does not need 75 Speed, I would recommend just swapping him to Assassin and dropping -faire. There are literally 3 enemies with 75 Speed in Apo, so don't stress too much over 75 Speed threshold (I had this problem myself).

*cough cough virion cough*

He doesn't give Valkyrie or Dark Flier, which are the 2 magical classes that grant +Speed Pair Up bonus.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Am I missing something? I see where all the numbers come from except the pair up. From that link with the pair up calculations, the only way to receive a +3 spd is to pair up with a non-spd pair up.

I was using a Warrior and All+2.

*cough cough virion cough*

What +Spd class that uses Tomes is Virion going to give to Noire?

[zaknafein]

Inigo definitely does not need 75 Speed, I would recommend just swapping him to Assassin and dropping -faire. There are literally 3 enemies with 75 Speed in Apo, so don't stress too much over 75 Speed threshold (I had this problem myself).

He doesn't give Valkyrie or Dark Flier, which are the 2 magical classes that grant +Speed Pair Up bonus.

They never appear in a clump right? It's just the NS, Anna, and NS2.0. Unless I'm missing something I think I can just longbow the whole map if I have 1 Sniper with 75 spd.

[Czar_Yoshi]

No, no clumps- though NS and Anna do spawn in opposite corners of the map on Wave 5, so you'll need a Staffbot to bring them over.

[burgerkong]

Alright, so I cleaned up the calcs a little bit and went a bit more indepth. Before I do them for every pairing, here's a sample (FeMU & Chrom):

[spoiler=Pair 1 - Avatar&Chrom]

1. Avatar (+Speed/-Luck) @Dark Flier [Galeforce/Luna/Ignis/Tomefaire]

Skill: 41 (base) + 2 (mod) + 22 (LB, Rally & Tonic) + 8 (pair up) = 73

Speed: 42 (base) + 4 (mod) + 22 (LB, Rally & Tonic) + 8 (pair up) = 76

Luck: 45 (base) – 1 (mod) + 26 (LB, Rally & Tonic) + 3 (pair up) = 73

- Dual Strike%: 73 (My skill) + 66 (Partner’s) = 139/4 + 60 (Support) + 10 (DS+) = 104.75 à 100%

- Hit: 271 (w/max hit Celica’s Gale) à 261 (w/custom-forged Celica’s Gale [-2 Hit, +2 Mt])

o Unit: 292 [73x3 = 219 (Skill x3) + 73 (Luck)]/2 = 146

o Weapon: 80 (Base hit rate) + 25 (Forge) + 5 (Weapon rank bonus) = 110

o Other: 15 (Support) = 15

- Skill Activation%: 73% (Luna) + 19.71% (Luna fails, Ignis activates) = 92.71%

1. Chrom @Bow Knight [Aggressor/Dual Strike+/Bowfaire/Hit+20]

Skill: 43 (base) + 1 (mod) + 22 (LB, Rally & Tonic) = 66

Luck: 45 (base) + 1 (mod) + 26 (LB, Rally & Tonic) = 72

- Hit: 255 (w/max hit Brave Bow)

o Unit: 270 [66x3 = 198 (Skill x3) + 72 (Luck)]/2 = 135

o Weapon: 70 (Base hit rate) + 25 (Forge) + 5 (Weapon rank bonus) = 100

o Other: 20 (Hit+20) = 20

Sorry to ask this, but are there any obvious mistakes seen anywhere?

And in terms of thresholds, I was going off these ignoring WT (credits to isetrh):

220 hit for mooks, 239 hit for Invincisorc, 248 for Thronie, 257 for Anna

Let me know if there are any additional ones that are important to hit!

EDIT: Also, here are my utility characters (outside of my 2 Rallybots, who are straightforward):

Olivia @Dancer [special Dance/Bond/?/?/?]

Micaiah (Radiant Dawn) @Valkyrie [Limit Breaker, Tomefaire, Acrobat, All+2, Mag+2]

Raquesis (Genealogy 1^st Gen) @Falcon Knight [Limit Breaker, Lancefaire, Anathema, Charm, DSp+]

I'm just wondering if anyone has had more success using a more support Staffbot build (a.la Raquesis) or a more pure Mag max Rescue range build (a.la Micaiah). Also, no clue what to put on Olivia, though everything aside from Special Dance seems superfluous.

Edited November 1, 2014 by burgerkong

[isetrh]

Sorry to ask this, but are there any obvious mistakes seen anywhere?

Sounds like something I can maybe comment on without making an idiot of myself!

There isn't anything like that though. Your pair and calculations look solid.

You don't really need to credit me for the thresholds. They're common knowledge, and I originally learned about them from Czar_Yoshi. I confirmed what I vaguely remembered using http://serenesforest.net/awakening/miscellaneous/calculations/ and http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Awakening_Enemy_Data:_Apotheosis , keeping in mind that Anna and I think two of the Berserkers have thrones. Also, Anna can apparently be removed from her throne, so if you have a plan for doing that then 137 is also a threshold.

The only other thresholds I can think of are damage thresholds, for determining whether you can get a kill on a given enemy under different circumstances or to different likelihoods (Do you need all dual strikes to hit, or can one miss? Two? How qbout your procs; how often do those need to to activate to get the kill? etc.) Survival thresholds won't come up a lot if you don't have a very specific plan for them.

Olivia would ideally like to get a kill, activate Galeforce, and then Dance. She does well with finishing off enemies that one of your pairs failed to kill. She can borrow the support to help get the kill, then return it and Dance for the lead. Astra is not worth using because she only wants to attack enemies she can have a guaranteed kill against. LB, Galeforce, and Special Dance would be the first three picks. Swordfaire and/or All+2 couls give her some extra killing power.

I do not see any gaping flaws in your Staffbots. From what I understand they're somewhat a matter of personal preference. Keep in mind that a Valkyrie with Valflame and Acrobat actually has more Magic than and the same Move as a Falco with LB. You might consider the skill Movemwnt +1.

My knowledge of postgame is purely theoretical, as I am still building my team. Take my advice not as coming from an authority, but an equal at best. That said, a lot of what I say is parroting what I've learned from Czar_Yoshi and other skilled players.

[Alastor15243]

Question: When I initially asked for advice for planning my no brave run of apotheosis, Czar_Yoshi mentioned that the luna lance and vengeance axe were useful tools on no brave runs. Are there any parent combinations that are normally non-viable, but become awesome with these weapons?

[isetrh]

Question: When I initially asked for advice for planning my no brave run of apotheosis, Czar_Yoshi mentioned that the luna lance and vengeance axe were useful tools on no brave runs. Are there any parent combinations that are normally non-viable, but become awesome with these weapons?

I went through all the lead kids and their proc options, and I can think of a few things. Some of these are already good pairings that gain new options.

Sumia/Olivia!Lucina gains the option of going LB/GF/DS+/LF/Aether while equipped with the Luna spear to have both procstack and a Faire, though I don't know how useful this is.

Lon'qu!Severa gains the ability to procstack Luna (spear)/Astra.

Gaius!Nah can procstack Luna/Astra.

Donnel!Nah at least has a proc.

Inigo becomes unruinable, since every magic dad is already good for him, and with a physical/neutral dad he can use the Vengeance Axe. Since he already has LB/GF/Agg/AF, he just needs mods (so not Donnel), and a filler if there's one you want him to run over All+2. Virion!Inigo for Hit+20 comes to mind, though I don't know how good that would be.

In general: It seems to me that Speed thresholds and AT would become more important, because doubling could compensate for not having Braves and good weapons that aren't Braves tend to be a pain in the ass to get.

Edited November 2, 2014 by isetrh

[Czar_Yoshi]

Three procs on Morgan is the first thing that comes to mind for me, but there are plenty of others (thanks isetrh). Don't forget about the Astra bow, it's not Sniper locked like DB so it could see some use on a Warrior, Assassin, or BK.

[Alastor15243]

I went through all the lead kids and their proc options, and I can think of a few things. Some of these are already good pairings that gain new options.

Sumia/Olivia!Lucina gains the option of going LB/GF/DS+/LF/Aether while equipped with the Luna spear to have both procstack and a Faire, though I don't know how useful this is.

Lon'qu!Severa gains the ability to procstack Luna (spear)/Astra.

Gaius!Nah can procstack Luna/Astra.

Donnel!Nah at least has a proc.

Inigo becomes unruinable, since every magic dad is already good for him, and with a physical/neutral dad he can use the Vengeance Axe. Since he already has LB/GF/Agg/AF, he just needs mods (so not Donnel), and a filler if there's one you want him to run over All+2. Virion!Inigo for Hit+20 comes to mind, though I don't know how good that would be.

In general: It seems to me that Speed thresholds and AT would become more important, because doubling could compensate for not having Braves and good weapons that aren't Braves tend to be a pain in the ass to get.

Thanks, though to answer you not being sure how useful putting lancefaire on lucina is, the answer is... it isn't. The luna spear has 14 might, and Gungnir has 16 and +5 str built in, and Gradivus has 19 and double range.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Alastor15243]

So... I just beat apotheosis.

On my first try with my latest build.

Without brave weapons.

It... wasn't as challenging as I had hoped it would be. I'm honestly puzzled why people even bother with using both procs and brave weapons, as the two combined seem like absolute and total overkill. I was able to reliably one-round practically everything simply by making sure I sent people with the right weapons after the right enemies for pavgis avoidance. A few notes however:

1: Vengance was pretty much useless, especially since the only user of it, Owain, happened to be paired up with Lucina.

2: Cynthia, as an aether sniper paired up with Assassin Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan, was an awesome lead unit but an absolutely terrible back unit. She slaughtered those annoying nostanks like they were nothing with her trusty longbow (and later double bow), but when it came to supporting Morgan, there was one point where her damage output was so abysmal (9 damage per shot) that she nearly got Morgan killed (which was, incidentally, the only point in the run when I even came close to losing).

And... now I feel kinda empty, with this big challenge just utterly coasted through on my first try. What are some challenge runs of apotheosis people have come up with?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Owain_the_swordsman]

So... I just beat apotheosis.

On my first try with my latest build.

Without brave weapons.

It... wasn't as challenging as I had hoped it would be. I'm honestly puzzled why people even bother with using both procs and brave weapons, as the two combined seem like absolute and total overkill. I was able to reliably one-round practically everything simply by making sure I sent people with the right weapons after the right enemies for pavgis avoidance. A few notes however:

1: Vengance was pretty much useless, especially since the only user of it, Owain, happened to be paired up with Lucina.

2: Cynthia, as an aether sniper paired up with Assassin Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan, was an awesome lead unit but an absolutely terrible back unit. She slaughtered those annoying nostanks like they were nothing with her trusty longbow (and later double bow), but when it came to supporting Morgan, there was one point where her damage output was so abysmal (9 damage per shot) that she nearly got Morgan killed (which was, incidentally, the only point in the run when I even came close to losing).

And... now I feel kinda empty, with this big challenge just utterly coasted through on my first try. What are some challenge runs of apotheosis people have come up with?

did you try the secret waves yet though? Edited November 3, 2014 by BlazeX635

[Alastor15243]

did you try the secret waves yet though?

Yeah, the secret route is the one I cleared.

[Ownagepuffs]

What was allowed and what wasn't? If it was no holds barred minus braves (DLC and such) then it still wouldn't be very challenging as LB + Agg is very strong. Try to reduce your power until you've reached a suitable challenge level.