PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

did you try the secret waves yet though?

Secret is assumed unless otherwise specified.

Well, coming up with new challenge runs is where creativity starts to be involved. Various combinations of banning Rescue and Galeforce can be interesting as they force you to take EPs, and no Pairup can add a lot of pressure to get kills. I've been entertaining the idea of a just-for-fun Hammers Only run for a while, which would be both hilarious and fairly challenging (have fun with Thronie). You could also try going all physical or all magical. Or just go with one of the three standard restrictions: restrict the skills allowed (so far done up to no DLC/Rally), restrict the number of units allowed (so far done down to 3, anything 6 or less is low enough for the challenge to begin), or restrict what's allowed during the preparation (eg: a post-Cht.4 run, no clue where the record for this lies).

[Alastor15243]

Thanks Czar, though I have to wonder, what's the big deal with procs when people use brave weapons? Surely if you can reliably kill the enemy without brave weapons, procs are totally unnecessary to kill virtually everything when you are using them, right?

[isetrh]

Since I'm currently a little burned out on the L+ file for the team I decided on, I was thinking of designing a 100% DS team.

Is there any particular reason to use 8 pairs on a 100% DS team, besides to show it can be done? I was thinking that benching Nah (low Skill, no useful inherent skills or classes except Deliverer), Noire (sort of low Skill, removes the issue of whether or not to use Donnel), Gerome, and Owain.

Pairs that seem appealing:

Sumia x Chrom: Gives Lucina TF without making Brady her brother, gives Cynthia Archer, and Sumia cab function as a DF which seems good because she can use magic and doesn't need Boots/Deliverer, both of which are somewhat rare on a 100% DS team.

Lucina x Ricken!Brady: Gives me a full magic pair. Brady gets Hit+20. Brady instead of Laurent because while the two have equal Skill and gap between Strength and Magic, Brady seems like he might be able to make use of GF if he isn't worrying about 160 Skill. Lucina!Morgan doesn't seem that appealing since Aether isn't useful here.

Avatar or Morgan x Inigo: Really unsure on this one, but it seems like maybe having an easier time reaching 160 Skill could allow him to make use of GF.

[Diabeasty]

Hey guys, haven't posted here in a while.

I've been thinking about about Noire and what kind of roles she can fulfill, I think I've come up with a few things and I'd like to get some opinions on them.

I've been messing around with some numbers with her in a Sniper-Sage pair-up in order to kill things with magic from 3 range. To me Ricken!Laurent feels like the obvious choice for the sage, having the highest non-Morgan Mag on a male character and having some useful support skills (anathema, hit+20, etc).

If I use Gaius!Noire, I can have her hit 69 speed perfectly with just rallies, tonics, and the base pair-up bonus. 69 speed is all I really need her to reach. Noire also gets to procstack Luna+Astra, which is a pretty fair deal.

As an alternative, I can actually get Donnel!Noire to 69 speed by switching Laurent to be a Dread Fighter instead. I miss out on a LOT of SKL by doing this, but I think hitrate issues can be patched up by putting Anathema on Laurent. Their DS rate suffers, but they weren't reaching 100% under any circumstances anyway so I don't think it's too big of a deal. I also miss out on quite a bit of power, Sage has 8 higher MAG than Dread Fighter and the 8 str from the Dread Fighter pair-up bonus doesn't quite bridge this gap. Donnel!Noire has armsthrift which does open up double bow as an option, which helps a bit but the whole point of Sniper-Sage is to have powerful Magic dual strikes. The upside to Donnel!Noire is that I do get to use Donnel's Galeforce and Gaius!Kjelle, who has much better stats than Donnel!Kjelle, becomes an option.

So my real question boils down to, would the loss in power of Donnel!Noire and Dread Fighter Laurent be significant enough that I wouldn't want to do it? If I'm still going to ORKO the things this pair is meant to kill, it doesn't make too much of a difference. Noire seems to be kind of an oddball unit at times, so if I can put Donnel!Noire to good use while gaining access to Gaius!Kjelle, some power that would likely just be overkill anyway is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

I understand that other characters with Sniper access can do this job much better than Noire can, but I really want to give Noire a niche in my team. That niche might not be one that she does better than others, but it's one I feel she might be able to do well enough.

Just for reference, with Donnel!Noire my proposed skillset would be BF,LB,GF,Vengeance,AT. With Gaius!Noire, just swap Vengeance and AT with Luna and Astra.

[burgerkong]

Since I'm currently a little burned out on the L+ file for the team I decided on, I was thinking of designing a 100% DS team.

Is there any particular reason to use 8 pairs on a 100% DS team, besides to show it can be done? I was thinking that benching Nah (low Skill, no useful inherent skills or classes except Deliverer), Noire (sort of low Skill, removes the issue of whether or not to use Donnel), Gerome, and Owain.

Pairs that seem appealing:

Sumia x Chrom: Gives Lucina TF without making Brady her brother, gives Cynthia Archer, and Sumia cab function as a DF which seems good because she can use magic and doesn't need Boots/Deliverer, both of which are somewhat rare on a 100% DS team.

Lucina x Ricken!Brady: Gives me a full magic pair. Brady gets Hit+20. Brady instead of Laurent because while the two have equal Skill and gap between Strength and Magic, Brady seems like he might be able to make use of GF if he isn't worrying about 160 Skill. Lucina!Morgan doesn't seem that appealing since Aether isn't useful here.

Avatar or Morgan x Inigo: Really unsure on this one, but it seems like maybe having an easier time reaching 160 Skill could allow him to make use of GF.

Czar has said that you only really need 5 APT to reliably beat Apotheosis, so having less pairs is certainly not a problem (IIRC the non-DLC challenge run only ran 3-4 pairs and a bunch of staffbots for Rescue). Running less pairs really does make it easier to manage your pairings and cultivate high Skill for 100% DS pairs.

That being said, with 2 guys & 2 girls being benched, you have 6 pairs (assuming Sumia X Chrom is being used as a 100% DS pair) with at least 13 APT total, so you have plenty of APT.

Sumia X Chrom is great, nothing wrong with that (both Czar & Zoran's 100% DS team use this IIRC). Great Skill mod, Archer access, etc. etc.

Ricken!Brady is fine, but I don't know if Brady should be getting an Archer-granting father considering Lucina has DS+. Thanks to DS+, Brady is guaranteed 100% DS, so I don't know if anyone else will need Archer inheritance before Brady does. All Brady really gets from the deal is Hit+20 & a higher Mag mod. If no other child needs Archer, then it's a fine pairing, but otherwise you might need to switch this around.

I'm assuming based on your Inigo pairing that you haven't started the file and decided your Avatar's gender yet, since it's impossible for both Avatar or Morgan to potentially marry Inigo in the same file :P

Hey guys, haven't posted here in a while.

I've been thinking about about Noire and what kind of roles she can fulfill, I think I've come up with a few things and I'd like to get some opinions on them.

I've been messing around with some numbers with her in a Sniper-Sage pair-up in order to kill things with magic from 3 range. To me Ricken!Laurent feels like the obvious choice for the sage, having the highest non-Morgan Mag on a male character and having some useful support skills (anathema, hit+20, etc).

If I use Gaius!Noire, I can have her hit 69 speed perfectly with just rallies, tonics, and the base pair-up bonus. 69 speed is all I really need her to reach. Noire also gets to procstack Luna+Astra, which is a pretty fair deal.

As an alternative, I can actually get Donnel!Noire to 69 speed by switching Laurent to be a Dread Fighter instead. I miss out on a LOT of SKL by doing this, but I think hitrate issues can be patched up by putting Anathema on Laurent. Their DS rate suffers, but they weren't reaching 100% under any circumstances anyway so I don't think it's too big of a deal. I also miss out on quite a bit of power, Sage has 8 higher MAG than Dread Fighter and the 8 str from the Dread Fighter pair-up bonus doesn't quite bridge this gap. Donnel!Noire has armsthrift which does open up double bow as an option, which helps a bit but the whole point of Sniper-Sage is to have powerful Magic dual strikes. The upside to Donnel!Noire is that I do get to use Donnel's Galeforce and Gaius!Kjelle, who has much better stats than Donnel!Kjelle, becomes an option.

So my real question boils down to, would the loss in power of Donnel!Noire and Dread Fighter Laurent be significant enough that I wouldn't want to do it? If I'm still going to ORKO the things this pair is meant to kill, it doesn't make too much of a difference. Noire seems to be kind of an oddball unit at times, so if I can put Donnel!Noire to good use while gaining access to Gaius!Kjelle, some power that would likely just be overkill anyway is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

I understand that other characters with Sniper access can do this job much better than Noire can, but I really want to give Noire a niche in my team. That niche might not be one that she does better than others, but it's one I feel she might be able to do well enough.

Just for reference, with Donnel!Noire my proposed skillset would be BF,LB,GF,Vengeance,AT. With Gaius!Noire, just swap Vengeance and AT with Luna and Astra.

Donnel!Noire would probably still run Luna, considering that you'll be shooting things from 3-range and ideally not getting countered anyways.

If you're willing to sacrifice AT (more Double Bow grinding or use forged Longbows instead) & BF you could go GF/Luna/AS+2/Spd+2 on Donnel!Noire and hit 70 Speed with Laurent as Sage (I'm pretty sure his +8 Mag will compensate for the loss of Bowfaire), but it really depends on if you're willing to lose out on AT.

I'm also done most of my calcs for my vanilla Apo run, so I'll post those later after I double check everything. Hopefully I haven't made any critical errors that I need to fix.

The team looks fine to me, though somewhat gimmicky since I made Fred!Cynthia a Wyvern Lord for kicks since that's Fred!Cynthia's only real niche (with Renewal to boot since I couldn't figure out a better skill), and Gregor!Kjelle is relegated to Assassin support for Chrom!Morgan in their 100% DS pair.

[Diabeasty]

If I drop Galeforce on Noire, I can use something like Gregor!Noire or Vaike!Noire. With AS+2 either of them can reach 69 speed, so I can marry her to someone like Owain or Brady instead. Both Noires also have AT, and Gregor!Noire can procstack Luna/Astra. Gregor also gets points because I'm not actually using him for anything right now. Czar_Yoshi made a post a while back saying that Vaike!Noire is pretty solid, and that dropping Galeforce isn't a huge deal, so I'm considering it.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Diabeasty

[isetrh]

Thanks burgerkong. You guessed right. I like to plan everything out long before I start the file. There are enough Archer dads to go around even with Ricken!Brady. I know Chrom x Sumia is a good pairing, but it's not Chrom or Sumia's only good pairing, so I think I do still need reasons to use it over the others. High amounts of APT may be overkill, but almost everything is when using full power.

Here's what I have so far for my team.

Sumia @ Dark Flier

LB/GF/TF/All+2/Renewal

Chrom @ Bow Knight

LB/Agg/DS+/BF/Hit+20

Speed: 42 (base) +3 (mods) +2 (All+2) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Sumia!Lucina @ Dark Flier

LB/GF/DS+/TF/Charm

Ricken!Brady @ Sage

LB/GF/Agg/TF/Hit+20

Lucina Speed: 42 (base) +5 (mods) +3 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =72

Brady Speed: 42 (base) +1 (mods) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =73

Chrom!Cynthia @ Sniper (Boots)

LB/GF/BF/All+2/Renewal

Lon'qu!Laurent @ Assassin

LB/Agg/SF/All+2/Str+2

Speed: 40 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +9 (pair up) +10 (Rallies) +10 (LB) +2 (Tonic) =78

Cynthia Skill: 48 (base) +4 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =76

Laurent Skill: 48 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

76 (Cynthia) +77 (Laurent) +7 (pair up) =160

Gaius!Kjelle @ Assassin

LB/GF/SF/All+2/Deliverer

Gregor!Yarne @ Hero

LB/Agg/AF/AS+2/Str+2

Speed: 46 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +3 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =76

Kjelle Skill: 48 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Yarne Skill: 46 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =75

77 (Kjelle) +75 (Yarne) +8 (pair up) =160

Stahl!Severa @ Sniper

LB/GF/BF/All+2/Deliverer

+Skill -Def Avatar @ Hero

LB/Agg/AF/All+2/Hit+20

Speed: 40 (base) +3 (mods) +2 (All+2) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =75

Severa Skill: 48 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Avatar Skill: 48 (base) +4 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =76

77 (Severa) +76 (Avatar) +8 (pair up) =161

Virion!Severa!Morgan @ Sniper

LB/GF/BF/All+2/Deliverer

Vaike!Inigo @ Hero

LB/GF/Agg/AF/Hit+20

Morgan Speed: 40 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =75

Inigo Speed: 42 (base) +3 (mods) +3 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =70

Morgan Skill: 48 (base) +9 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =81

Inigo Skill: 46 (base) +3 (mods) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =71

81 (Morgan) +71 (Inigo) +8 (pair up) =160

Any comments or advice?

[Diabeasty]

Is there any particular reason why both Stahl!Severa and Virion!Severa!Morgan are listed? I assume you're using Virion!Severa and just made an error writing it up considering you have Deliverer in her skills.

If you're willing to give up Renewal, Stahl!Gerome@Assassin should be able to reach 100% DS with Chrom!Cynthia if you put Skill+2 on both of them. Would do more damage, just an option I guess.

[zaknafein]

Skill build for Berserker Robin supporting a Sniper Lucina?

LB, Axefaire, Agg, Hit +20, ???

I was thinking Lancebreaker, All+2, or Anathema on that last spot? If it doesn't matter I could probably just put AT for convenience.

[isetrh]

Is there any particular reason why both Stahl!Severa and Virion!Severa!Morgan are listed? I assume you're using Virion!Severa and just made an error writing it up considering you have Deliverer in her skills.

If you're willing to give up Renewal, Stahl!Gerome@Assassin should be able to reach 100% DS with Chrom!Cynthia if you put Skill+2 on both of them. Would do more damage, just an option I guess.

Whoops, good catch. I was still messing with pairs as I wrote this up. Virion!Severa.

Renewal was just a filler. I will go with Stahl!Gerome, thanks! I initially wrote off Gerome because I overestimated the difficulty of making a 100% DS team and didn't want his low Skill, but it turns out two points of Skill is not a big deal compared to 5 points of Strength when only going for 4 pairs of 160 Skill.

[Ownagepuffs]

Thanks Czar, though I have to wonder, what's the big deal with procs when people use brave weapons? Surely if you can reliably kill the enemy without brave weapons, procs are totally unnecessary to kill virtually everything when you are using them, right?

When you aren't running on full power procs are precisely where your damage comes from.

[Rydia]

Sorry if I disappeared, I've been sick with tonsillites and I didn't feel like being online too much. Anyway, I will jump on the calculations bandwagon and try two couples here if it's all right with you. Could you please tell me if the calculations are correct and who'd you pick between the two options I'm trying to set up here?

Maribelle!LucinaxChrom!Brady!Morgan OR Libra!Owain.

Lucina @Dark Flier [Galeforce/Luna/Ignis/Tomefaire/Limit Break]

Base maxed stats will be 35,45,44,44,50,29,43

Morgan @Sage [Galeforce/Aggressor/Tomefaire/Limit Break. Fifth still to pick between Dual Support +, Luna or Ignis]

Base Maxed Stats will be 28,49,43,44,52,31,44

Owain @Sage [GF, LB, Aggressor, tomefaire. Fifth skill still to pick- Maybe Astra for fun or Wrath with him being a Galeboy.]

Base Maxed Stats: 29,50,44,43,47,31,43

.

With Pairup we will have Lucina with (considering her partners are both over 30 stats and same class they will give the same pair up bonus)

Skl: 73 ((44 (base)+10 (LB)+7(Pair up bonus = Support unit’s stat bonus[3] + Support unit’s class bonus[2] + Support level bonus [+2]) +2 (Tonic) +10 (rallies) ))

Spd: 70 (( 43 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+2) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Luck: 77 (( 50 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+2) + 12 (tonic e rallies)

Magic: 81 ((45 (base) +10 (LB) + 9 (3+4+2) + 12 (tonics and Rallies + 5 tomefaire))

Morgan with:

Skl: 70 ((43 (base)+10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+2) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Spd: 74 (( 44 (base) +10 (LB) + 8 (3+3+2) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Luck: 79 (( 52 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+2) + 12 (tonic e rallies)

Magic: 84 ((49 (base) +10 (LB) + 8 (3+3+2) + 12 (tonics and Rallies) + 5 tomefaire))

Owain with:

Skl: 71 ((44 (base)+10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+2) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Spd: 73 (( 43 (base) +10 (LB) + 8 (3+3+2) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Luck: 74 (( 47 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+2) + 12 (tonic e rallies)

Magic: 85 ((50 (base) +10 (LB) + 8 (3+3+2) + 12 (tonics and Rallies) +5 tomefaire))

Now pairing them up I'd have a Dual strike % of:

Lucina in attack:

Dual Strike%: 73 (Lucina's skl) + 70 (Morgan's skl) = 143/4 + 60 (Support) = 95.75%

Dual Strike%: 73 (Lucina's skl) + 71 (Morgan's skl) = 143/4 + 60 (Support) = 96%

Morgan in attack:

Dual Strike%: 73 (Lucina's skl) + 70 (Morgan's skl) = 143/4 + 60 (Support) = 95.75%

Owain in attack:

Dual Strike%: 73 (Lucina's skl) + 71 (Morgan's skl) = 143/4 + 60 (Support) = 96%

I can't see a big difference, here, it's mostly Owain who'd hit harder than Morgan. The main difference is Morgan's enormous pool of luck (That could make him a perfect Armsthrift user for the main story but if I run Apo- I'm okay with burning down legendaries) but they seem valid if not equal perfect Lucina supporters-pairings for me. Also- Noire and someone else will be benched for this run so I will probably give her a spare father (picking randomly between those who will end free) and leave her with a lonely male child.

Also- I still have Laurent in the hotlist for Lucina but someone else already made the calculations and I don't feel like I should post them here and pretend I did them myself. I'm just... looking around trying to see what could work better. Owain/Morgan/Laurent - who doesn't marry lucina- will be paired with either Gaius!Cynthia (Dark Flier) or Henry!Nah.

So- I reached so far and I should be correct, I think, but I still have to understand how to do hit-rate calculations, the value of the unit and other stuff... could you please teach me one step further?

Also- this may be a stupid question but what is 'procs' for?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rydia

[burgerkong]

Sorry if I disappeared, I've been sick with tonsillites and I didn't feel like being online too much. Anyway, I will jump on the calculations bandwagon and try two couples here if it's all right with you. Could you please tell me if the calculations are correct and who'd you pick between the two options I'm trying to set up here?

Also- this may be a stupid question but what is 'procs' for?

Hey there, hope you're feeling better!

Unfortunately, have some bad news. Pair up bonuses, particularly the "Support Level Bonus" doesn't work that way.

The +2 from support level is applied if the class itself grants a pair up bonus, so it would be applied only to Magic, Skill, and Resistance in Lucina's case while paired up with a Sage.

Moving onto your pairing, Lucina should definitely be running Dual Strike+ over Tomefaire for 100% DS, but is otherwise fine. Aether does slightly more damage on average, but Luna increases proc chance by a bit (Ignis will be doing more damage on average especially considering you're hitting Resistance), so it really is just preference.

Morgan should definitely run Ignis. Out of curiosity, what was Avatar's Asset/Flaw? I can't figure it out by looking at his stats.

Owain should probably run Vengeance, as Astra is pretty lacklustre without procstacking, and would be my recommendation to pair with Lucina between these 2. Honestly, with his power and Lucina's proc chance & 100% DS assuming you add DS+ back in, he can probably get away with running no procs and running AS+2 or something.

Hit rate = Weapon’s Hit rate + [(Skill x 3 + Luck) / 2] + Weapon Rank bonus

Calculations can be found here:

http://serenesforest.net/awakening/miscellaneous/calculations/

"Proc" is a generic gaming term for anything that has "a chance of happening on hit/crit." In Fire Emblem, it generally refers to Skills.

[Rydia]

Much better, thank you!

Unfortunately, have some bad news. Pair up bonuses, particularly the "Support Level Bonus" doesn't work that way.

The +2 from support level is applied if the class itself grants a pair up bonus, so it would be applied only to Magic, Skill, and Resistance in Lucina's case while paired up with a Sage.

Oh! So if the class doesn't grant it there's no bonus at all- not even if the unit has more than 30 str? Got it! Sorry, I didn't realize.

Moving onto your pairing, Lucina should definitely be running Dual Strike+ over Tomefaire for 100% DS, but is otherwise fine. Aether does slightly more damage on average, but Luna increases proc chance by a bit (Ignis will be doing more damage on average especially considering you're hitting Resistance), so it really is just preference.

I realized I did something really stupid- Lucina wouldn't have ignis- I was about to write dual support + (she can grab it descending from Maribelle)- but if you think dual strike + could be better I'm ready to bet on it.

And- With what you said Lucina would look like this with any sage, then?

Skl: 73 ((44 (base)+10 (LB)+7(Pair up bonus = Support unit’s stat bonus[3] + Support unit’s class bonus[2] + Support level bonus [+2]) +2 (Tonic) +10 (rallies) ))

Spd: 68 (( 43 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+0) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Luck: 75 (( 50 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+0) + 12 (tonic e rallies)

Magic: 81 ((45 (base) +10 (LB) + 9 (3+4+2) + 12 (tonics and Rallies + 5 tomefaire))

Morgan should definitely run Ignis. Out of curiosity, what was Avatar's Asset/Flaw? I can't figure it out by looking at his stats.

She's a Def+/Skl- avatar. Maybe not the best choice, If I could go back I'd pick either magic or speed as asset- but back then every lunatic+ suggestions site was ointing at this setup- and with this being my first lun+ run I trusted them- just to find out it's useful basically only in the first four chapters. Oh, well.

She'll be a dark flier with 35 str, 42 mag, 38 skl, 42 spd, 47 lck, 35 def and 43 res.

I was also considering Gerome as Husband to make a physical and strong morgan but in the end I prefere magical users too much... not to mention Severa and Kjelle will probably enjoy two strong berserkers at their side.

Owain should probably run Vengeance, as Astra is pretty lacklustre without procstacking, and would be my recommendation to pair with Lucina between these 2. Honestly, with his power and Lucina's proc chance & 100% DS assuming you add DS+ back in, he can probably get away with running no procs and running AS+2 or something.

Then I only have to pick between Ricken!Laurent and Libra!Owain. They're both magical monsters...

Hit rate = Weapon’s Hit rate + [(Skill x 3 + Luck) / 2] + Weapon Rank bonus

Calculations can be found here:

http://serenesforest...s/calculations/

"Proc" is a generic gaming term for anything that has "a chance of happening on hit/crit." In Fire Emblem, it generally refers to Skills.

ok, so I will have weapons ready for that- and I only know I will use lots of celica's gales forged and brave weapons (I'm not ready for an apo run without them) and I will do those calculations when I have a definitive setting in mind. And- thanks for the explanation!

[burgerkong]

Much better, thank you!

Oh! So if the class doesn't grant it there's no bonus at all- not even if the unit has more than 30 str? Got it! Sorry, I didn't realize.

I realized I did something really stupid- Lucina wouldn't have ignis- I was about to write dual support + (she can grab it descending from Maribelle)- but if you think dual strike + could be better I'm ready to bet on it.

And- With what you said Lucina would look like this with any sage, then?

Skl: 73 ((44 (base)+10 (LB)+7(Pair up bonus = Support unit’s stat bonus[3] + Support unit’s class bonus[2] + Support level bonus [+2]) +2 (Tonic) +10 (rallies) ))

Spd: 68 (( 43 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+0) + 12 (tonic&rallies) ))

Luck: 75 (( 50 (base) +10 (LB) + 5 (3+0+0) + 12 (tonic e rallies)

Magic: 81 ((45 (base) +10 (LB) + 9 (3+4+2) + 12 (tonics and Rallies + 5 tomefaire))

She's a Def+/Skl- avatar. Maybe not the best choice, If I could go back I'd pick either magic or speed as asset- but back then every lunatic+ suggestions site was ointing at this setup- and with this being my first lun+ run I trusted them- just to find out it's useful basically only in the first four chapters. Oh, well.

She'll be a dark flier with 35 str, 42 mag, 38 skl, 42 spd, 47 lck, 35 def and 43 res.

I was also considering Gerome as Husband to make a physical and strong morgan but in the end I prefere magical users too much... not to mention Severa and Kjelle will probably enjoy two strong berserkers at their side.

Then I only have to pick between Ricken!Laurent and Libra!Owain. They're both magical monsters...

ok, so I will have weapons ready for that- and I only know I will use lots of celica's gales forged and brave weapons (I'm not ready for an apo run without them) and I will do those calculations when I have a definitive setting in mind. And- thanks for the explanation!

Erm, based on my calcs, your Lucina is short 1 speed (her base should be 44), which is great since it puts you at the 69 Speed threshold (doubling the 65 Speed tanky Berserkers). Remember to change your numbers from 5 --> 3.

DSp+ is pretty unnecessary for Apotheosis. With the way Support levels work, DSp+ amounts to +5 to Hit, Avoid, Crit, and Crit Avoid, which are all pretty negligible. DS+, which is guaranteeing buttloads of damage from Aggressor+TF Sage partner, is way better for consistency and average damage.

Magical Avatar is perfectly fine, considering she has a -ve Strength modifier and the enemies' higher Defense on average. As her husband, Chrom should obviously be her partner, as Bow Knight or Sniper depending on if you want to hit certain speed thresholds or not. She can hit the 70 Speed threshold with the former pretty easily.

+Def/-Skl isn't ideal for Apo, but Avatar is still great and doing Lunatic+ definitely encourages suboptimal Asset/Flaw combos in order to beat it efficiently. The first 4 chapters are extremely rough in Lunatic+, so whoever suggested it didn't give bad advice. If you're posting in this thread, by the time your pairings are done you're going to stomp Apo anyways :P

As for Ricken!Owain vs. Libra!Owain, it depends on if you need Ricken elsewhere. Ricken is an all-around amazing father thanks to Luna access + Archer, so if you plan on doing any other 100% DS pairs you may need him to hit those Skill thresholds. If you don't plan on using every child, and can give Ricken to Owain, the higher Mag mod and access to Luna are icing on the cake and make Lucina + Owain team even more broken. Libra!Owain is already solid however.

In the end, you kind of have to commit to how many children you're using and solidify a few pairings before planning everything out. I'm running every child but Gerome (who won't even be recruited lol) in my current Avatar X Chrom run, but the one after I may use less pairs to open up room for better optimization for the fewer children and more Staffbots. Something to think about :)

Edited November 4, 2014 by burgerkong

[Rydia]

Erm, based on my calcs, your Lucina is short 1 speed (her base should be 44), which is great since it puts you at the 69 Speed threshold (doubling the 65 Speed tanky Berserkers). Remember to change your numbers from 5 --> 3.

DSp+ is pretty unnecessary for Apotheosis. With the way Support levels work, DSp+ amounts to +5 to Hit, Avoid, Crit, and Crit Avoid, which are all pretty negligible. DS+, which is guaranteeing buttloads of damage from Aggressor+TF Sage partner, is way better for consistency and average damage.

I will remember that, thanks! (And thanks about the spd stuff, I messed it up)

Magical Avatar is perfectly fine, considering she has a -ve Strength modifier and the enemies' higher Defense on average. As her husband, Chrom should obviously be her partner, as Bow Knight or Sniper depending on if you want to hit certain speed thresholds or not. She can hit the 70 Speed threshold with the former pretty easily.

+Def/-Skl isn't ideal for Apo, but Avatar is still great and doing Lunatic+ definitely encourages suboptimal Asset/Flaw combos in order to beat it efficiently. The first 4 chapters are extremely rough in Lunatic+, so whoever suggested it didn't give bad advice. If you're posting in this thread, by the time your pairings are done you're going to stomp Apo anyways :P

As much as I'm ready to mess around with pairings I sincerely dislike MuxChrom and- I'm already 112 hours in, between grinding and unlocking supports and simply enjoying dlc conversations. Even if I lose time around he's already married by now. And I'm still not too confident about apo X°D Anyway the next time I will do a lun+ run I will probably go mag+/str- (I prefere to focus only on a single kind of weapon), it's just a matter of time.

As for Ricken!Owain vs. Libra!Owain, it depends on if you need Ricken elsewhere. Ricken is an all-around amazing father thanks to Luna access + Archer, so if you plan on doing any other 100% DS pairs you may need him to hit those Skill thresholds. If you don't plan on using every child, and can give Ricken to Owain, the higher Mag mod and access to Luna are icing on the cake and make Lucina + Owain team even more broken. Libra!Owain is already solid however.

Oh, Ricken is already married with Miriel and already gave birth to an amazing laurent, Libra!Owain seems rather solid as well and I'm just debating who's going to marry who at this point. Inigo is going to run with Kellam and I have Maribelle!Lucina, Chrom!Brady, Ricken!Laurent, Lon'Qu!Severa, Donnel!Kjelle and Owain in the way, now I'm more trying to fix the remaining kids and fathers. And- this was more a large sheet I put down trying to understand how pair ups work... I kept messing things up before X°D

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rydia

[burgerkong]

As much as I'm ready to mess around with pairings I sincerely dislike MuxChrom and- I'm already 112 hours in, between grinding and unlocking supports and simply enjoying dlc conversations. Even if I lose time around he's already married by now. And I'm still not too confident about apo X°D Anyway the next time I will do a lun+ run I will probably go mag+/str- (I prefere to focus only on a single kind of weapon), it's just a matter of time.

Oh, Ricken is already married with Miriel and already gave birth to an amazing laurent, Libra!Owain seems rather solid as well and I'm just debating who's going to marry who at this point. Inigo is going to run with Kellam and I have Maribelle!Lucina, Chrom!Brady, Ricken!Laurent, Lon'Qu!Severa, Donnel!Kjelle and Owain in the way, now I'm more trying to fix the remaining kids and fathers. And- this was more a large sheet I put down trying to understand how pair ups work... I kept messing things up before X°D

OH WAIT, I brain farted. Forgot you already married Brady :P

Avatar x Brady is fine, Avatar will be hitting 67 Speed, but if the rest of your team is speedy enough then it's not a huge concern. Brady will be hitting 74 Speed with Dark Flier Pair Up. He's unfortunately just short of doubling the 70 Speed enemies, but it's up to you if you wanna replace TF with AS+2 for that (if you have 1-2 other 75 Speed units then you shouldn't be too worried about this).

From my understanding, you have so far:

Maribelle!Lucina (Dark Flier) - decide which Sage hubby she wants

Chrom!Brady (Sage) - married to Avatar, so no-brainer pairing

Chrom!Brady!Morgan - magically-inclined, would love to have a female Dark Flier partner or similar. Poor skill mod means unlikely 100% DS, but he'll be nuking stuff with magic anyways.

Libra!Owain - straightforward pairing with a magical partner

Kellam!Inigo - very balanced, can go Sage or physical depending on what you need

Gaius!Cynthia - neutral Str & Mag mods. with her exceptional skill, she can go for a 100% DS pair fairly easily, and her Speed is amazing so she's guaranteed <69 Speed. Astra for procstacking

Lon'qu!Severa - amazing Skill & Speed mod, can achieve 75 Speed with slower classes or go for an easy 100% DS

Donnel!Kjelle - very versatile, can fill any role you need her to. can go dark flier and marry Morgan/Laurent/Sage Inigo or physical with Inigo

Ricken!Laurent - insane damage on his dual strikes, dedicated support god. Easy pairing with a Dark Flier (or Sniper, but you're lacking in those :P)

Stahl is a great father who is notably absent here, an amazing physical father for Yarne or Gerome. I can see Gaius!Cynthia & Stahl!Yarne being a great pairing and easy 100% DS, but it really depends on who you want to bring to Apo.

Honestly though, you could just run these pairs listed here for an all-magical team if you really want to. The listed children + Avatar is 5 pairs with 14 APT total (all your Galeforces right here), which is plenty. Chrom can pair up with Maribelle for gimmicky Sniper build as an option for a last pair if you don't want to run anymore children/staffbots so you have access to some Longbow utility, but it's up to you.

[Rydia]

OH WAIT, I brain farted. Forgot you already married Brady :P

Avatar x Brady is fine, Avatar will be hitting 67 Speed, but if the rest of your team is speedy enough then it's not a huge concern. Brady will be hitting 74 Speed with Dark Flier Pair Up. He's unfortunately just short of doubling the 70 Speed enemies, but it's up to you if you wanna replace TF with AS+2 for that (if you have 1-2 other 75 Speed units then you shouldn't be too worried about this).

Yup. And worry not, My brain farts more times than yours anyway.

About the speed issue I was slightly concerned about that but if needed Brady is a Galeboy and HE will be damn fast anyway. I may consider to leave TF behind for AS+2 to get more speed. I mean, Gaius!Cynthia has a whooping 48 base spd (+12ralliestonic+3sagepairup+2allstat+LB) and will hit 75, Hero!Severa is lon'qu's daughter (with another 48 base spd) and will definitely hit 75 with any berseker partner but having another spd unit who can double even the fastest... isn't bad at all. Heck, I adore spd, the only reason I still have to marry either Panne and Olivia is because I'm debating if I should give Virion to Inigo (46 base spd as a hero + galeforce + various supports would make him a very fast unit - maybe pairing him with paladin!Kjelle.)

Stahl is a great father who is notably absent here, an amazing physical father for Yarne or Gerome. I can see Gaius!Cynthia & Stahl!Yarne being a great pairing and easy 100% DS, but it really depends on who you want to bring to Apo.

Stahl's haircolor is sooo ugh, duh. Jokes aside, I am still considering who will be Stahl's son/daugher, you don't even know how many times I rearranged my plans... and I'm not using him on Panne mostly because I know I'd just go all 'no, if she's going to marry a horse-rider she's marrying Frederick!' because I'm a stupid woman. Also, Cynthia was going magical mostly.

For Apo I was planning AvatarxBrady (DF-sage), Severa-Yarne (Hero-Berserker), Inigo-Kjelle (Hero-Paladin), Lucina-Sage husband, Cynthia-Sage husband (two DF-sage pairs). And that's 10/20 units we can have on the ground, I will have at least 6 staff-ralliers, Olivia (bride) and her husband being two of them, Chrom and Maribelle will be on the floor because Chrom has to be around anyway and I still have to pick the remaining two characters to have in it. Sage!morgan and sniper partner could be one of those pairings since sniper-sage seems a good set, but in this case I will definitely need to find the best set for a sniper girl between noire and nah.

Chrom can pair up with Maribelle for gimmicky Sniper build as an option for a last pair if you don't want to run anymore children/staffbots so you have access to some Longbow utility, but it's up to you.

Chrom pairs up with Maribelle as a Dread Fighter because it offers her a magic and speed boost. With him like that he can still use swords without risk and Maribelle's stats go up to:

Skl: 69 ((44 (base)+10 (LB)+ 3pairup +2 (Tonic) +10 (rallies) ))

Spd: 70 (( 42 (base) +10 (LB) + 6 (3+1+2) + 12 (tonic&rallies)

Magic: 81 ((48 (base) +10 (LB) + 6 (3+1+2) + 12 (tonics and Rallies + 5 tomefaire))

Eventually 71,72,83 if I add an AS+2 but I usually keep galeforce, tomefair, lifetaker, LB and Dual Support +. But... actually if Dual Support + isn't that useful in that case I could ditch it gor AS+2.... uhn....

May not be perfect setting and may receive an unnecessary str boost but she's pretty much nuking stuff around, galeforcing and attacking again with enough speed to avoid to be doubled by enemies.

Honestly though, you could just run these pairs listed here for an all-magical team if you really want to.

Silly question: how many magic-resistant enemies do you have in apo? I'm asking because Maribelle can efficiently kill two units on the top in the very first wave-first turn and even if they're bulky they're somehow 'weak' to magic. But when it comes to units with higher resistance I doubt a full-magical team could help.

(also- Severa has always been a magical pain to grind, at least for my personal experience...)

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rydia

[Czar_Yoshi]

Wave 0 isn't part of S.Apo. S.Apo has enemies with stats 10-20 higher across the board and more skills (Counter, Vantage+ and Luna+ get introduced to the pool). It's not a good idea to judge S.Apo by Wave 0.

I've been away for the last two days and kind of a lot has happened, so if anyone has any specific questions for me, could you please re-post them?

(IIRC the non-DLC challenge run only ran 3-4 pairs and a bunch of staffbots for Rescue).

AC's most recent run used a full team.

[Diabeasty]

If I drop Galeforce on Noire, I can use something like Gregor!Noire or Vaike!Noire. With AS+2 either of them can reach 69 speed, so I can marry her to someone like Owain or Brady instead. Both Noires also have AT, and Gregor!Noire can procstack Luna/Astra. Gregor also gets points because I'm not actually using him for anything right now. Czar_Yoshi made a post a while back saying that Vaike!Noire is pretty solid, and that dropping Galeforce isn't a huge deal, so I'm considering it.

This wasn't really a question, or directed at you, but what are your thoughts on this? I was planning on marrying Donnel!Noire to Ricken!Laurent as a SagexSniper pair.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Personally, I'd look into using Gaius!Noire for Sniper x Sage and non-GF Kjelle first, and if you don't like any of the options there then go the All+2/Spd+2 route on Donnel!Noire.

[Diabeasty]

If I used Donnel!Kjelle as a Paladin and have her paired with Bowfaire warrior Gerome, she'll sit comfortably at 65 speed, which seems fair. If I make her an Assassin and swap Astra for AS+2 she can actually hit 75 speed. Do I actually need three characters to hit 75 speed? I already have Lon'Qu!Severa as a boss killer, and I can have my Lucina hit 75 speed easily as a Paladin considering I plan on having Robin as a support Berserker for her. I could have a non-GF Kjelle marry Fred!Inigo, but then I have no idea who I'd marry Gerome to.

[Czar_Yoshi]

3 75 units is nice, but not mandatory. If you somehow manage to not have a unit who can ORKO a 70 Spd boss, just fight them with multiple units. Most of them die in 2+4 hits anyway, the extra Spd is mostly just insurance to make sure they die even if you have terrible luck with misses and DS procs. The only time it becomes really important is if you're lowmanning and failure means being stuck in range of NS during EP.

[isetrh]

Czar_Yoshi, could you take a look at my draft of a 100% DS team with help from burgerkong and Diabeasty? I was only going to use 6 pairs, dropping Nah, Noire, Owain, and Laurent (Laurent's lead of 2 Skill over Gerome turned out not to be necessary with two pairs). Is this a good idea, or would I be better off using a full team like you did? The way I have it, everyone is able to have faires and 8 Mov, just missing procs because your reasoning for leaving them out on your team made sense to me.

Sumia @ Dark Flier x Chrom @ Bow Knight

Sumia!Lucina @ Dark Flier x Ricken!Brady @ Sage

Chrom!Cynthia (Boots) @ Sniper x Stahl!Gerome @ Bowfaire Assassin

Gaius!Kjelle (Deliverer) @ Swordfaire Assassin x Gregor!Yarne @ Axefaire Hero

Virion!Severa (Deliverer/ @ Sniper x Avatar @ Axefaire Hero

Virion!Severa!Morgan (Deliverer) @ Sniper x Vaike!Inigo @ Axefaire Hero

Olivia (Boots) @ Dancer

15 APT with Olivia

Including calcs amd full skill sets, but the important stuff is mostly in the summary. Everyone has 100% DS.

Sumia @ Dark Flier

LB/GF/TF/All+2/Renewal

Chrom @ Bow Knight

LB/Agg/DS+/BF/Hit+20

Speed: 42 (base) +3 (mods) +2 (All+2) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Sumia!Lucina @ Dark Flier

LB/GF/DS+/TF/Charm

Ricken!Brady @ Sage

LB/GF/Agg/TF/Hit+20

Lucina Speed: 42 (base) +5 (mods) +3 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =72

Brady Speed: 42 (base) +1 (mods) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =73

Chrom!Cynthia @ Sniper (Boots)

LB/GF/BF/All+2/Skill+2

Stahl!Gerome @ Assassin

LB/Agg/SF/All+2/Skill+2

Speed: 40 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +9 (pair up) +10 (Rallies) +10 (LB) +2 (Tonic) =78

Cynthia Skill: 48 (base) +4 (mods) +2 (All+2) +2 (Skill+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =78

Gerome Skill: 48 (base) +1 (mods) +2 (All+2) +2 (Skill+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =75

78 (Cynthia) +75 (Gerome) +7 (pair up) =160

Gaius!Kjelle @ Assassin

LB/GF/SF/All+2/Deliverer

Gregor!Yarne @ Hero

LB/Agg/AF/AS+2/Str+2

Speed: 46 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +3 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =76

Kjelle Skill: 48 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Yarne Skill: 46 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =75

77 (Kjelle) +75 (Yarne) +8 (pair up) =160

Virion!Severa @ Sniper

LB/GF/BF/All+2/Deliverer

+Skill -Def Avatar @ Hero

LB/Agg/AF/All+2/Hit+20

Speed: 40 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Severa Skill: 48 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =77

Avatar Skill: 48 (base) +4 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =76

77 (Severa) +76 (Avatar) +8 (pair up) =161

Virion!Severa!Morgan @ Sniper

LB/GF/BF/All+2/Deliverer

Vaike!Inigo @ Hero

LB/GF/Agg/AF/Hit+20

Morgan Speed: 40 (base) +5 (mods) +2 (All+2) +8 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =75

Inigo Speed: 42 (base) +3 (mods) +3 (pair up) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =70

Morgan Skill: 48 (base) +9 (mods) +2 (All+2) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =81

Inigo Skill: 46 (base) +3 (mods) +10 (LB) +10 (Rallies) +2 (Tonic) =71

81 (Morgan) +71 (Inigo) +8 (pair up) =160

Olivia @ Dancer (Boots)

Special Dance/Pass/Bonds/All+2

There won't be any failed kills to clean up unless I screw up, so GF wouldn't ever do much. I just maximized Movement, added a passive support skill and then used the last two for if I ever wanted her to take a hit, because I can't think of anything better.

Thanks!

Edit: A typo made it read more like a demand than asking a favor. Sorry!

Edited November 6, 2014 by isetrh

[burgerkong]

So, I'm rounding out my Apo team and finishing grinding out my skills for final team.

I'm wondering what to use for my last slot of Frederick!Cynthia, Lon'qu!Yarne, Gregor!Kjelle, and Henry!Nah. The former is running Wyvern Lord as kind of a gimmick build, since it's the only unique build Fred!Cynthia can run. The middle 2 are both Assassins in 100% DS teams, while Nah is paired with Owain as a Sage/Valk team. My current skill sets for them are:

Frederick!Cynthia @Wyvern Lord [Galeforce/Luna/Lancefaire/?] - leading with Kellam!Inigo @Berserker

Lon'qu!Yarne @Assassin [Aggressor/Swordfaire/All Stats +2/?] - supporting Stahl!Severa @Sniper

Gregor!Kjelle @Assassin [swordfaire/Luna/All Stats+2/?] - supporting Chrom!Morgan @Sniper

Henry!Nah @Valkyrie [Vengeance/Tomefaire/Anathema/?] - supporting Ricken!Owain @Sage

Kjelle is running Luna since she doesn't have Galeforce to let her take the 2nd turn kill, allowing Morgan to better abuse Aggressor, similarly to Nah's Vengeance.

Both of the Assassins only have Swordfaire access, so I was wondering if Lancebreaker would be a viable option for the final skill. IIRC it works through support, and would allow both of them to reach perfect hit. It's not great, but they don't have too many options either (Str+2...?). As for Nah, something for utility like Deliverer maybe would be my pick for her, though maybe I'm missing something here.

In the case of both Cynthia & Nah, AS+2 doesn't grant them any notable thresholds.

Aside from them, the rest of my team looks like this:

AVATAR (+Speed/-Luck) @ Dark Flier [Galeforce/Ignis/Luna/Tomefaire]

CHROM @ Bow Knight [Dual Strike+/Aggressor/Bowfaire/Hit+20]

- 100% DS, 75 Speed on Avatar

AVATAR!LUCINA @ Dark Flier [Galeforce/Dual Strike+/Luna/Aether]

LIBRA!LAURENT @ Sage [Aggressor/Tomefaire/Anathema/*]

- 100% DS, +69 Speed on Lucina

GAIUS!NOIRE @ Dark Flier [Galeforce/Luna/Astra/Anathema]

VIRION!BRADY @ Sage [Galeforce/Luna/Aggressor/Tomefaire]

- +69 Speed on Noire, +75 Speed on Brady