False ideas on what's good in FE that we used to have

[-Cynthia-]

I'm curious how well Jill would perform without any transfers and assuming average level-ups on the battlefield. She'd be much harder to turn into a ORKOing machine - perhaps you would use her for utility only (at least before part 4)?

She's still the best use of resources IMO, since a flying combatant is better than a not flying one and most of the other DB units we can put resources into don't end up matching her combat wise anyway.

Now with no resources and no transfers Jill is just flying utility yeah.

[Samias]

Even in a no transfers run with no resources, Jill is the 2nd best flier in the game. She doesn't have the raw stats of the laguz royals but she also has way more availability, route flexibility, and no arrow weakness. Her start is a little weak but she will always be useful on the DB and be way more than just utility. Considering the DB puts up with so many swamp maps you will lose turns without her.

[Espinosa]

The Laguz royals can't counter at 2-range, too. I guess in CommunistFE where resources aren't given automatically to turn-shavers without any penalty/contesting, the question is how Jill compares to Janaff/Ulki.

[Shadow Mir]

Considering the DB puts up with so many swamp maps you will lose turns without her.

Um, two is not "so many" swamp maps. And Jill's unavailable for one of those anyways.

[Samias]

Well, maybe I exaggerated, but 3-6 is significant. There are also a lot of maps full of ledges and cliffs, and Jill by far has the most mobility. She is Haar-lite.

[shadykid]

even with BEXP dumps "screwing up Jill's stats", she's still somehow good enough at combat to the very end, so.....

[Elieson]

even with BEXP dumps "screwing up Jill's stats", she's still somehow good enough at combat to the very end, so.....

Because typical "flying units see more combat and therefore acquire more exp to gain more stats"

[Refa]

More like PEOPLE ON FLYING DRAGONS ARE BETTER THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ON FLYING DRAGONS THIS IS COMMON SENSE HOW YOU NOT GOT IT

[shadykid]

More like PEOPLE ON FLYING DRAGONS ARE BETTER THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ON FLYING DRAGONS THIS IS COMMON SENSE HOW YOU NOT GOT IT

*flying pegasus in every other game

[Jedi]

*flying pegasus in every other game

Fe5 and Fe6 disagree

[shadykid]

Fe5 and Fe6 disagree

Thany is quite brilliant in segmented speedruns, rig level-ups for strength

but yes, Miledy is amazing

Edited September 6, 2013 by shadykid

[Jedi]

Thany is quite brilliant in segmented speedruns, rig level-ups for strength

but yes, Miledy is amazing

Oh right "rigging" :P

[Espinosa]

iirc Karen wallops FE5?

[Jedi]

iirc Karen wallops FE5?

But Dean! He's both good outdoors and indoors! I don't recall Karin being too dominating.

[Breezy Kanzaki]

But Dean! He's both good outdoors and indoors! I don't recall Karin being too dominating.

I think Karin is good because she comes in Manster.

Maybe that

[Baldrick]

Karin is the First Flier, and so gets a claim on many resources. Scrolls, caps and enemy stats mean she doesn't really have a strength issue like some FFs. But Dean is probably for the time they're both around (a.k.a less than half of Karin's existence)

In order to reach her full potential, Jill is labour and skill intensive. You have to rig many, many bexp levels to get her growths to co-operate, and you have to know FE10 intimately. I'm no slouch in LTC, but I got handily beaten in the DB chapters of a draft by someone with Leonardo (the Underlevelled Earlygame Archer) as their DB unit. Compared to Haar (and others like Ike/Titania/Sothe/Volug/Royals/Herons/Hawks etc.) who basically come pre-assembled and have either a good growth spread for BEXP or no need for growths at all.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Huck Finn

[Chiki]

Haar needs bexp and resources just like Jill does, but to a lesser extent.

By not promoting Jill at 1-6-2 you can get her enough exp to kick 3-6's ass.

[Refa]

*flying pegasus in every other game

In FE1, FE3, FE11, and FE12, the flying pegasus transform into FLYING DRAGONS, denoting a higher state of being!

[Jedi]

I think Karin is good because she comes in Manster.

Maybe that

Karin is the First Flier, and so gets a claim on many resources. Scrolls, caps and enemy stats mean she doesn't really have a strength issue like some FFs. But Dean is probably for the time they're both around (a.k.a less than half of Karin's existence)

Ok you both got me there, haha ^^; it's been awhile since I've played fe5.

Carry on.

[Refa]

Karin is worse in 0% growths LTC 0/10.

[Loki Laufeyson]

All Jill really needs is Paragon.

Haar needs bexp and resources just like Jill does, but to a lesser extent.

Not really. Save for MAYBE a Speedwing, Haar needs fuck all to function better than just about everyone.

[XeKr]

No one (I think) doubts that Jill is very good. The original question was, however, is she the best in FE10? As in better than Haar? Even without transfers?

She's pretty clearly the best in the extreme of ignoring reliability (and with transfers), as Celes' Jill centric run is significantly faster than other documented runs. From what I understand, Celes also tries to optimize reliability, when possible, though he emphasizes turncounts first. That's still new and fairly compelling evidence imo, and worth assessing. Handwaving and saying that “she gets lots of levels” is not compelling evidence btw.

In my eyes though, her positioning depends on what stat benchmarks she needs to reliably perform her unique turn-shaving strats . Plus how statistically likely it is to obtain those stats. blahblahexpectedturncountetcetc. Admittedly, I seem to be one of few that subscribes to this specific line of thought.

I don’t see any issue with the point that some are bringing up where she eats all the resources or takes a lot of "work". It doesn’t matter if Jill (when in play) takes all the resources as long as turncount/reliability are not sacrificed elsewhere. Notably, reliability nearly always is indeed sacrificed elsewhere, as more levels for robust stats are always useful. But we might assume Jill's unique turnshaving outweighs that. Assuming more arbitrary allocations (the classic “competing” for resources argument) tends to result in messy, unproductive and oftentime circular arguments on who “deserves” or is assumed certain resources.

I always thought this thing was a “false” idea of the past, but apparently not. From the recent responses, it doesn't seem like many people are over this resource distribution issue and convinced she is the best at all. >_>.

Edited September 7, 2013 by XeKr

[CT075]

hey man

i like expected turncount but i can't be bothered to do the calculations most of the time

[Loki Laufeyson]

I always thought this thing was a “false” idea of the past, but apparently not. From the recent responses, it doesn't seem like many people are over this resource distribution issue and convinced she is the best at all. >_>.

Jill isnt the best in FE10 though. So id call thinking so to be the "false idea." Shes probably the best on the DB team, but surely not the best in the game. Jill needs a little love, Paragon and maybe a forge and she can wreck shit in part 3. (this is without transfers btw.) Haar needs like, nothing at all to make him amazing. Hes amazing the moment you get him. If you want the biggest wrecking ball ever, just give him a Speedwing and/or Nullify and not even mages can scratch him. Without that, Haar still dominates. Jilll shaves off a lot of turns in Team Micaiah. I dont think anyone will deny that. But best in the game? Dont be silly.

[Florete]

Jill isnt the best in FE10 though. So id call thinking so to be the "false idea."

It's not really an idea we "used to" have, though; it's current. And it's not so far-fetched as you claim.

Shes probably the best on the DB team, but surely not the best in the game. Jill needs a little love, Paragon and maybe a forge and she can wreck shit in part 3. (this is without transfers btw.) Haar needs like, nothing at all to make him amazing. Hes amazing the moment you get him. If you want the biggest wrecking ball ever, just give him a Speedwing and/or Nullify and not even mages can scratch him. Without that, Haar still dominates. Jilll shaves off a lot of turns in Team Micaiah. I dont think anyone will deny that. But best in the game? Dont be silly.

Haar really needs a Wing to be amazing, at least in hard mode. Without one he won't be doubling at all, won't be getting the kills he needs, and won't be getting the levels he needs to keep up. In normal he either needs a Wing or enough levels/luck to make sure his Spd doesn't fall behind, because 30% is really unreliable with how borderline he can be. Nullify is something to help him with the mages, but it's also at the cost of something like Celerity that he'd rather have.

If you follow laws of Optimal Resource Distribution, Jill being the best character in the game might be a stretch but not too much of one. She definitely has opportunity to be more helpful overall than Haar, she just needs more attention to get there.