Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Paperblade]

Not really sure what part of Grassbridger's post this is referring to.

The part that was directed at me

[Sunwoo]

First, check the timestamps. I claimed cut by Bizz twice; in one case I saw it first and commented, in the other case (where I voted Paper) I didn't even know Bizz was voting him (due to inattention, I think, and it having been 4am). Basically I didn't like the massclaim idea from an experienced player like Paperblade; from what I've been told, NOC games are supposed to be massclaim-proof.

My initial vote against Eclipse was due to her saying that she was looking forward to defending herself, and I'll elaborate more on that below. Then I kept it on her because her vote on me seemed OMGUSy and forced.

My Paperblade vote was, as I said, due to the massclaim and general lack of reads at the time. I guess he has been prodding a few players with questions but not really giving reads, so both my points are still valid FMPOV. Role =/= alignment so I don't see how massclaim helps wrt Shinori's claimed role.

I know that you were cut by Levity the first time, and I know that happens. I don't have a problem with that. However, Levity voted Paperblade nearly 7 hours before you did. That is not a "cut". Either way, it still doesn't make me feel better about you. You don't agree with Paper's massclaim idea, okay, but do you think it was a scummy thing to do?

Your vote against eclipse looking forward to defending herself is pretty terrible, in my opinion. I'll let eclipse tackle that herself, but I don't buy it. Why is it such an untownish thing to look forward to defending oneself? So her vote feels OMGUS-y and forced. Elaborate on this. Why is it such?

While I'd still support a Paperblade lynch due to generally weak scumhunting and what I view as a bizarre massclaim suggestion, I'm going to

##Unvote

##Vote: Lonely Wallcrab

I was at the point of voting Eclipse again here due to what I consider intentional antitown play (drawing her own lynch, being overly aggressive) but it felt OMGUSy even to myself.

Wallcrab voted me without any apparent attempt to understand the context of the conversation, so he's either inattentive or intentionally misrepping me. Skimming and graspy cases are both things that scum do, so, that paired with a general lack of reads, lead to my vote. (Also the bit where he said "it's lame but I'm sheeping Manix" and then later asked Elie "how was I sheeping much")

Is there a reason why you're moving your vote off Paperblade if you still support his lynch? Is Wallcrab just that much worse in your mind?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Alright, I'm going try to serious post when I get up tomorrow.

[euklyd]

Ugh so much stuff to say. Not really sure if I should just go ahead and spit it all out.

Almost done, though.

[euklyd]

Oops.

The alternative being spit only some of it out.

[eclipse]

I will not be around for phase end, but if you need anything from me, read backwards.

[Paperblade]

I still think Manix's player slot is scummy and think he's a way better lynch that Refa. If we want to start a Wallcrab or Elieson wagon those would also be good.

[Paperblade]

Also BBM is anything being done about Kay? She's posted once

[Sunwoo]

Oh yeah, I will most likely be online during phase end, but I won't be around in the morning or early afternoon because tomorrow is my busy day.

[Paperblade]

I'll be around-ish for phase end. I have to drive somewhere a over an hour before phase ends but should be here within the last half hour.

[euklyd]

PEdit: Okay whatever, I give up trying to shorten this monstrosity, I need to go to bed. I'm posting it all! and I really hope this doesn't clog stuff up too much. Ooh I know, I'll have abstracts in italics and indented for people who want to skim.
Here we go.

Scumreads/vibes first, I guess. Almost all of them 'slight'.

Scorri.
Sangyul basically beat me to the argument I was going to make here (#492) so I don't really feel like retyping it.
Basically it's the combo of posting a fair amount w/o really staking out positions, which bothers me. The one post with scumreads does seem off for going after Refa (easy target), also that was right after pointing out that Weapons was an easy target.

tl;dr too much IIoA and theory, so slight scumread (for active lurking).

Viata.
The other person that I think Boron beat me to making an argument against. Probably my longest scumread, but not a particularly strong one. I think the main thing that was bothering me was expressing agreement with Weapon's non-arguments without really saying what was being agreed with specifically.
This is a very slight scumread.

tl;dr too much agreeing with non-arguments and nothing really to make me counterbalance that, so extremely slight scumread

Weapons.
Obvious reasons that have been gone over. Very high empty posting to actual content ratio, and not a fan of the way he seems to be taking nothing seriously.
Scumread, or null and just bad play, at best. I would not mind a lynch of Weapons, but at the same time it wouldn't really get us many associative scumreads.
PEdit: Okay, looking forward to tomorrow, then.

tl;dr obvious reasons (lack of content, so basically active lurking).

Shinori.
Besides the whole roleclaiming thing, I don't think I've seen Shinori give a read on anyone except maybe Wallcrab a long time ago. Since you've already painted a target on your back by roleclaiming, why not go all the way and tell us what you think about people? Why play it safe now that you've roleclaimed?
[spoiler=Also waffling]

I'm okay with mass claiming yet part of me also says no to mass claiming.

If the idea is to mass claim then have all the scummy people vote the lynch target and me use my ability, then okay.

But part of me is partially against it.

Just seems like a pattern of not wanting to step on toes.
This is to say nothing of why roleclaim Day 1.
Medium scumread, one of my higher ones (not saying much at all TBH), but at the same time I really do not want to see Shinori lynched without having a shitton more evidence than lack of reads, for obvious reason.

tl;dr basically the only content has been to roleclaim

Manix.
[spoiler=Relevant quotes]

can I throw a few things out there before we get too ingrained in the massclaim idea

1) his claimed role, while strong as fuck, can easily be faked as scum (funny that) and can "clear" scum with the right result fake.
2) i see a number of people assuming shinori is town from role alone. why? (if you want my opinion, i'm nullreading him rn because role =/= alignment)
3) I'd argue that the people that seem to be all too sure of shinori being town are more likely scum. paper/eclipse/refa/and whoever else i've missed, 11pm posting too stronk
4) massclaiming outs protective roles anyway (prime kill/hook targets), which puts our investigative roles at risk. also consider chances are (I would damn hope) that massclaim won't break the game.

that be me take on this fishy massclaim business, mateys.

and the moment anyone takes a stab at me for putting a blanket statement over people as per point 3) above, know that I will drill into you for it later (the key point is "most likely", which is not to say they are definite scumreads, but eyes are being kept)

Not liking the blanket accusations or the accompanying threats, and other than that it appears to me that Manix is trying to play things relatively safe and not really be presenting cases.
I do agree with his points WRT Shinori & massclaims, though.

tl;dr threats and blanket statements rub me the wrong way, maybe also some tiptoeing.

Townreads/vibes:

Elieson
High quality posts; even if I disagree with the occasional thing he says, at least he's saying stuff and making pretty good cases.
If I said more here I would be saying a LOT more, so maybe later.

Sangyul.
Not really sure why I'm leaning town here, but it's a pretty strong vibe. Could be that she's made the arguments I was going to make (the scorri one here), so maybe some bias there. Also makes strong arguments/cases (but maybe my bias is getting in the way here), which seems to be a deciding factor when I'm looking for stuff Day 1.

eclipse
Not really seeing why, if she were scum, she would be okay with drawing attention to herself like this Day 1. I really can't see any scum making that sort of gambit, but I guess it's kinda WIFOM, so ~vibes~. The fact that she makes sense and actually says things is nice.

Grassbridger.
Actually, not really sure why I'm getting town vibes from him.
Possibly because I just don't find him nearly as scummy as others do, and he does make arguments that I agree with, including the thing about eclipse and not defending, although I certainly don't have any personal experience to draw from.

Nullreads/vibes
Others all nullreads, either because there's so little to work from or because I just can't read them at all.

Oh right, nullread on Refa, but I also have something to say. I also am seeing Refa's 'mistakes' as more newb mistakes than newb scum mistakes (lol @ me talking about newb mistakes).
Gives some analysis/opinion, which is nice. Not a fan of the OMGUS on Poly, but /hypocrite

Lastly, Paperblade.
The massclaiming thing still strikes me as a bit odd, as does the strong defense of Shinori, but I don't think he's likely to be scum anymore, for the following reason.
- If Shinori is town and Paperblade is scum, then it would be to the advantage of the scum to let people cast as much doubt on Shinori as possible, since the Sensor is just so powerful.
- If Shinori and Paperblade are scumbuddies, I don't really see them buddying up, simply because in the games I have seen, scum really hate to be caught buddying up to other scum.

The only reason I think Paperblade might be scum is if a massclaim (and possibly a fake result from Shinori) would so fuck over the town that it would be worth the outing of one or two scum.
So I'm not sure what I think here.


You'll notice a pattern of me not liking "active lurking" and IIoA. I'm sure there's more I should be going after people for, but I don't feel like I have a lot to work with. I hope I didn't miss anyone.

Anyways I've said my piece (a *rather* long piece, huh?). I feel like I've probably messed something up when writing this and I will smack myself when I wake up, but more info is better, right? Right?

Before I go, ##unvote: Paperblade
Not really sure who to vote for, though. I'm cool with basically any of my scumreads getting lynched sans Shinori (although I can be persuaded either way, I'm sure).
I'll be back on in about 12.5 hours at the latest.

PEdit: Oh jeesus that's a long post. I feel kinda weird posting something that's basically the same height as the entire page before it. But I will just stop worrying; I guess if I'm doing something wrong it's not the end of the world. Someone please tell me if I'm doing something wrong here.

[BBM]

Still looking for a sub for Manix. Since I won't be back until an hour before phase end, anyone who wants to sub in should also try to get in touch with Tables, Kaoz, Rein, or Prims, so that they can learn their role and alignment without having to wait for me.

Kay has been prodded.

[BBM]

Votals

Grassbridger (2): Eclipse, Bearclaw

Boron (1): Weapons

Refa (3): Manix, Scorri, Polydeuces

Weapons (2): Shinori, Elie

Manix (4): Paperblade, Kirsche, Bizz, Boron

Polydeuces (1): Refa

Bearclaw (1): Grassbridger

Not Voting (3): Psych, Kay, Euklyd

With 17 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch at deadline and 9 to hammer. Phase ends at 9 PM EDT on September 24th (1 AM GMT on September 25th). You have slightly over 13 hours and 45 minutes left.

[Da Bear]

Wallcrab voted me without any apparent attempt to understand the context of the conversation, so he's either inattentive or intentionally misrepping me. Skimming and graspy cases are both things that scum do, so, that paired with a general lack of reads, lead to my vote. (Also the bit where he said "it's lame but I'm sheeping Manix" and then later asked Elie "how was I sheeping much")[/quote

First off, i did attempt tp understand i read through your ISO several tomes and while there were plenty of things I ddidn't like that stuck out to me which is why I brought up that specific part, and using my vote on you as a reason to vote me seems like really bad/scummy reasoning to me.

Yeah I don't have a lot of reads.... I'm joined with 4-5 other people in this game, how is that a scumtell though?

...so sheeping once = sheeping a lot?

[Zkirsche]

Eukyld is Paperblade is a nullread why are you voting him over your scumreads?

Also why am I left out :(

Hasn't really posted all that much, but he did make a rather convincing case on Manix and none of his other arguments are giving me scum vibes. My only problem is that he doesn't really have a case for anyone besides Manix, which is why he's a null read instead of leaning town.

I have an eclipse case. It might be based more on the fact that I don't like her attitude than to how she plays.

You didn't talk about Manix in that list post.

@Refa+Elie: You're voting people who haven't really contributed much. Sure, I get that you want them to and that they're not helping, but lynching inactives D1 doesn't help us at all. I know you don't like active lurkers, and you shouldn't, but not having much to say =/= active lurking.

kirsche needs to drop rum for whisky

I drink more whiskey than rum. Rum is nice once in a while though.

Dunno about GB, I find it hard to read that guy.

If we want to start a Wallcrab or Elieson wagon those would also be good.

What's your problem with Elieson again? I disagree with like 90% of what he's saying but I don't think it's that scummy.

[Zkirsche]

It might be based more on the fact that I don't like her attitude than to how she plays.

meant to be

It might be based more on the fact that I don't like her attitude than to how she plays, but a weak case is a case nonetheless.

Nothing strikes me as scummy from her recent posts though so it's minor.

[charlie_]

Still looking for a sub for Manix.

I'll do it.

[Tables]

SO has been sent (partial) role & alignment information for Manix

[Da Bear]

I missed this when answering Grass..

pffffff this is an awful argument, although maybe it would help if I clarified that age/experience thing:

Bizz: "I don't like how you're treating me like I've never played before"

me: "I don't know how much you've played or how good you are"

Eclipse: "A lot. Bizz has played a lot."

me: (what I meant, maybe not exactly what I said) "noted, I'm not going to give someone a free pass on rookie mistakes just because of experience though--old people can be bad"

Your read of my interaction with Boron is completely off. Boron was like "Grass, you've done the semantics tunnel thing as town before. Is this really worth it/will it accomplish anything?" And I thought about that and decided "Boron, you're right. This is probably not the best use of my time or vote. (Unvote)" In other words, I was apologizing for a bad line of inquiry.

Reading games that Bizz has participated in would tell you he's a srong player though, that thought process would mean you like haven't played in or read the games he's participated in (or forgotten them, I think forgetfulness is more likely here).

A bad line of inquiry seems scummy imo, there's also backpedaling there and my problem of you agreeing to the vote doing nothing remains after your explanation.

Don't like your tone here at all either so yeah.

[Zkirsche]

Yo SB why shouldn't we lynch you?

[charlie_]

AS OF MAKING THIS POST, I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT I AM

THIS WILL GO WELL

Found bearclaw scummy from his early posts on, where he says that no reason is better than OMGUSing but then he doesn't vote for Euk the hard to spell guy, and explains why OMGUS votes are supposed to be scummy, but then in a later post he says he didn't think the vote was scummy? I can't really follow this train of thought very well. Then there's this thing

I'm more trying to say that it really isn't one than saying he's scum.

that I don't like. How do you screw up the wording that badly that you disagreeing with his reasoning but he's not scummy turns into it being scummy? It's so confusing my head hurts from writing that sentence.

Eli's entrance with no comments on anything that went down is lame, but it's not a major thing.

Grass is looking way too far into Bizz's wording in #106 imo, even with that explanation, don't town want to find scum too? #117 makes them look worse, considering he's cherrypicking a specific player who said that they thought that Bear was null (eclipse and Refa come to mind from the start.)

Objection, there's this thing called reading the thread. You should do it. Bear's posts after that just feel like he's trying to contribute but at the same time isn't really doing anything helpful to the town (we can all see who has and hasn't posted at this point, you know.)

Then there's this from Bear again.

So yeah... all I can really say so far about people is that I don't like Grassbridger's reasoning, though it's actual reasoning at this point so meh... I just don't really see it.

No. Do you know what you said earlier? No Reasoning<OMGUS, meaning that bad votes were worse than unjustified reasoning. So why is Grass's bad reasoning being excused? In the same post he says "oh hey eclipse has a bunch of null reads" but then his post there is basically a bunch of nulls and reciting of events.

##Vote: bearclaw

I gotta go walk my dog now. More when I get back.

[euklyd]

Eukyld is Paperblade is a nullread why are you voting him over your scumreads?

Also why am I left out :(

Not Voting (3): Psych, Kay, Euklyd

I just hadn't gotten around to voting for one of my scumreads because I wanted time to think when it wasn't ~1:00am.

Also, looking over my notes, you were probably left out because you may have been missing from the ISOs in the OP (I have Objection but not you). I don't really have enough time to look over your posts right now, but I think I've been getting townvibes.

Anyways now that it's morning I'm gonna vote for someone, and since I don't know for sure if I'll be able to post in the afternoon, I'm gonna vote for Manix so that we can reach a lynch.

I'm finding others (*coughscorricough*) more scummy, but that seems like it'd be a wasted vote today.

##vote: Manix SO

PEdit: Now that it's not!Manix playing, so this may be revised, but I have a bus to catch in like a minute or two and don't have time to reanalyze. I mean it's not like this makes previous playing *less* scummy.

[euklyd]

Be back in ~30 min I hope

[Zkirsche]

Here's my ISO.

Yo BBM are all our votes transferred to SO or do we all have to revote?

[Percivalé]

i am Awake, threadspam yesterday was me having an anxiety attack, really sorry <_<

SB's post actually still doesn't make me feel better about his slot, yet. There just seem to be a lot of things in there everyone else has said.

I actually agree with like everyone Paperblade wants to lynch btw

I'm not 100% sure I'll be around for phase end but I'll be around a lot after my class today. Will work on content posts in a sec.