It's Time To Duel!!!! Mafia [Game Over]

[Randa]

Yeah we have 12 still alive. Not voting is Shinori, Myself, Eury and Bear.

[Vhaltz]

But if Bear is scum and Baldrick wasn't vanilla than it makes sense. Especially if the Rolespec wasnt even used in Baldrick.

I understand what you mean and I'm not assuming bearclaw is 100% town out of what I mentioned. I just don't think that the whole rolecop situation makes him scum, if he's scum he's bound to be scummy over other things and I haven't really seen anything from him yet that screams scum to me. What you're saying here is a "Possible tell", it works based on an assumption and would be right as long as the assumption is right, but as soon as the assumption is wrong because there's an alternate explanation then the whole thing falls apart. It's not really a good approach.

[charlie_]

I'm getting this problem where I don't think most of the active posters are scum? Halp

[Vhaltz]

Same

[Elieson]

I'm finally doing votals guys give me a minute or three.

Still requesting a Sub

[Elieson]

Elieson's "I swear I'm good at this" Votals

dragonclaw13 (3): scorri, Shin, Green Poet

Green Poet (3): Mango Sentinel, Prims, Vhaltz

Shinori (1): SB.

Eury (1): kirsche

Voteless Card-Playing Motorcyclists: Shinori, Randa, Eurykins, dragonclaw13

With 12 alive, 7 hammers. No hammer = No lynch.

Day 2 ends in slightly over 28 hours.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Elieson

[Vhaltz]

Just a heads up, I was pretty lucky with my schedule last week but I have practicals tomorrow and will barely be able to do anything but check the thread until I'm done with both practicals and lessons, which I think is around 2 hours before deadline. Might be able to do stuff at lunch time but it mostly depends on that we don't go overtime in practicals like we did on thursday.

[Shin]

I understand what you mean and I'm not assuming bearclaw is 100% town out of what I mentioned. I just don't think that the whole rolecop situation makes him scum, if he's scum he's bound to be scummy over other things and I haven't really seen anything from him yet that screams scum to me. What you're saying here is a "Possible tell", it works based on an assumption and would be right as long as the assumption is right, but as soon as the assumption is wrong because there's an alternate explanation then the whole thing falls apart. It's not really a good approach.

Whilst I agree it's quite an assumption, a lot of DA BEAR's play from D1 is rather suspect. This is a lot of waffle for what's essentially "DA BEAR might be scummy, but you're making a big assumption.

Green's far too reactionary for my liking, literally making votes and taking them away at request. There's been no real justification in votes, the Psych one in particular looked like an attempt to ride the choo-choo! Looking back at Green's Psych case, a lot if it based on tunnelling, which a few people were doing at the time and got no mention. Despite considering Psych scum, there wasn't a vote until rather late, which seems to be the case today too.

##Unvote

##Vote: Green Poet

TLDR: Goes with the flow, vote reasoning is generally pretty poor, only votes when asked too. Scummier than DA BEAR. scorri's still in the "eh" list, but I'm starting to feel a little better.

[Green Poet]

Green's far too reactionary for my liking, literally making votes and taking them away at request. There's been no real justification in votes, the Psych one in particular looked like an attempt to ride the choo-choo!

I was the second person to contribute to what became the final Psych wagon, after Vhaltz, on D1. The day ended with six votes on him. There was no existing wagon for me to jump on at that point.

In comparison, you're voting me when there are already three votes on me. . . doesn't that sound a lot more like riding a wagon?

Looking back at Green's Psych case, a lot if it based on tunnelling, which a few people were doing at the time and got no mention. Despite considering Psych scum, there wasn't a vote until rather late, which seems to be the case today too.

Psych's choice of vote actually had nothing to do with my reason for voting him. It was his tendency to ask questions like "Could you elaborate on why you think I'm scum?" or "So if I vote X non-wagon instead of Y wagon, then you'll be satisfied?" instead of offering diverse reads that caused me to be suspicious of him.

As for the lateness of the votes - the Psych wagon began nine hours before phase end on D1. My first vote on bearclaw was made in the first half of the day phase. Not seeing how this could be constituted as late; if anything, the timing of your vote on me is "late," as there was only just over a day left in this phase when you made it.

Which sounds like scum reviewing whether or not it's safe to vote somewhere than town evaluating whether somebody is more likely to be scum than other candidates.

I'd reiterated that I had a Psych case because my vote had been ignored for two pages, which is something you're not going to see from ISO'ing me. I wanted to know what people thought about my case, or if they'd even realized it existed (Poly had stated earlier that everything I'd said had been unmemorable to him, something I try to avoid).

Her replies to Prims' suspicion and willingness to shove her off a cliff through loverizer also feel like scum caught for the wrong reasons when she complains that she was only being suspected over being part of a wagon.

This is a really weak reason to vote anyone.

Prims presumably only had that reason for suspecting me at that point (he'd listed his reads a page earlier and mine was the only one which contained just my name, without reasoning) so I decided to ask why he'd suddenly been so convinced I was a good choice for this plan over any of his other scumreads. Sure, you could say that it sounds like "scum complaining for being caught for the wrong reasons," but the sentiment is literally the same if you simply replace it with "town complaining for being caught for the wrong reasons." It's not an exclusive or strong argument at all.

Prim's was a risky, unjustified plan that had an extremely low chance of benefiting town, regardless of either participant's alignments. Saying that my opposition to this constitutes a reason for voting me is ridiculous.

A lot of the votes on me right now feel as though they're made with the intent of staying safe and falling on whichever wagon seems the most viable at present, and are inadequately reasoned. I think that some of the people questioning me (namely Prims and maybe SB) are town, whose suspicions are just founded too much on deflecting attention from themselves to a more popular target. Too many usually reliable scumhunters are being sidetracked by things like my posting style or wording, rather than the reasoning or the intent behind them. I do not want this to result in a mislynch.

But I don't particularly care how I appear. My vote's staying where it is because I maintain that I'm confident that bearclaw is scum, and that voting me would be a waste of today's lynch. If the votes do continue being as misguided as EO2 D1, I'll come back and claim.

Going to re-read Shin and scorri.

[Vhaltz]

Shin, post your opinions on players that aren't GP/bearclaw

Mulling stuff over for a bit, might take a while to put out a post

[Vhaltz]

Nvm, at first I got townie vibes from that post but then I reviewed the Kay interaction and I think I'm just second-guessing too much.

I think you're either misrepresenting or didn't really understand the case I brought up. It has less to do with the fact that you had a Psych case or that you voiced against Prims' plan and more with the wording surrounding it. In the first case the wording implies that you were wary of what people would think of your case ("no one raised any issues" wrt the case on Psych). You claim that this wording is because you were expecting to see reactions to your case because people were ignoring you, but did you ever call anybody out by asking them what they thought of your vote/case? If you did link that over.

In the second case it's more about the "but I was only voting somebody in a wagon =/"-sounding wording than about disagreeing with the idea itself. While this is pretty subjective, it's what I thought sounded legit scummy as opposed to other more generally-accepted universal scummy things that I didn't think were reliably alignment-telling given the circumstances. This instance also oversimplified Prims' case which was more than "GP was on Vhaltz's wagon" which is a trend I'm seeing that I don't really like.

Upon rechecking, Kay's interaction with GP that I asked Prims about is also potentially telling.

FoS is dumb unless it's a secondary suspicion, there's no reason not to vote instead unless you're worried about quickhammers, which are definitely not a problem now. And do you have any reasoning for FoSing Vhaltz besides "I need a scumread and there's a wagon on him"?

Seems like a way for scum to try to avoid being called out for their vote to me, but IIRC Green Poet is new, since FoS is normal on some sites it could be unfamiliarity with SF meta.


Bad self-meta. Otherwise I'm not terribly concerned about Vhaltz, I think him failing at semantics is a bit scummy but not as bad as this.

Kay harped on GP for FoSing instead of voting, but immediately justified it by claiming that other forums have a more open use of FoS and called it null. This would explain why coaching would've happened in-thread as opposed to through QT, because the main aim of the interaction would be geared towards protecting GP from potential votes coming as a result of the noncommital FoS.

This is specially bad and held double standards in that her vote on me was purely based on the use of self-meta which could be equally explained by being unfamiliar with SF meta.

Note: I haven't actually fully gone through EO2, I barely read any of the game when it was running so it's very hard to parse anything with the walls she was writing there. All I could get so far is that she is fond of explaining herself and that her activity level was noticeably higher.

[Shin]

I was the second person to contribute to what became the final Psych wagon, after Vhaltz, on D1. The day ended with six votes on him. There was no existing wagon for me to jump on at that point.

In comparison, you're voting me when there are already three votes on me. . . doesn't that sound a lot more like riding a wagon?

Not particularly. My issue isn't with the timing of your vote in relation to the others, it was how you made a case on Psych quite early on but were only really willing to commit a vote towards the end.

Vhaltz, it's hard to talk about people who don't exist!

[Vhaltz]

Vhaltz, it's hard to talk about people who don't exist!

What? Eury had like a pretty large of posts and iirc you haven't even mentioned her so far

And if you have a relatively solid opinion on bear then you can give an opinion on Shinori as well, their activity levels have been really similar.

Heading to bed soon

[Prims]

remember when randa said hed post

[Vhaltz]

Not really :V

Do you think he was bussing Kay yesterday?

[Randa]

Yeah. And then everybody left me with all the work. I should be able to actually contribute tomorrow. And I might be around at the deadline. Depends on when how close we cut it.

[scorri]

See, it's odd you say that. (Hi, I appear)

So, right, I was reading Randa's ISO, and he's doing a really weird thing. He's saying that he's ok with lynching Kay, but at the same time, he keeps pushing at Vhaltz about why Vhatlz was focusing so much on Kay. His whole case on Kay was based around a very thin case.

Says Kay was his biggest scum read, then dropped Kay down to second below Neko, dropped you on there and started pushing you about Kay, later completely dropped his Neko scum read because of the sub out, brings Psych up as his main scum read and unvotes Kay and doesn't vote anyone despite the fact that he said he'd want to vote Psych and Kay.

He then makes a post about these people that he finds scummy and then ends up voting SB because "I have a hard time reading him" So instead of voting someone that he actually thought was scum, he voted SB after giving a bunch of reasons why no matter who he voted he'd look scummy. After being pushed about his bad vote, he eventually went back to Psych, but that whole thing just looks really bad.

And then today he's given vague reads on two people, completely dropping his Neko case, his Prims case, his SB thoughts, and everyone else that he said he thought was scummy yesterday for seemingly no reason. Would lynch here.

##Unvote

##Vote:Randa

[Vhaltz]

Says Kay was his biggest scum read, then dropped Kay down to second below Neko, dropped you on there and started pushing you about Kay, later completely dropped his Neko scum read because of the sub out, brings Psych up as his main scum read and unvotes Kay and doesn't vote anyone despite the fact that he said he'd want to vote Psych and Kay.

He then makes a post about these people that he finds scummy and then ends up voting SB because "I have a hard time reading him" So instead of voting someone that he actually thought was scum, he voted SB after giving a bunch of reasons why no matter who he voted he'd look scummy. After being pushed about his bad vote, he eventually went back to Psych, but that whole thing just looks really bad.

The line of interactions with Kay does sound good, but to be fair on that last point he was being gauged into voting one of the main wagons instead of Psych and iirc he didn't appear to be really comfortable with any of them.

I maaaay have to revisit Randa's ISO because my read on him was heavily based on midD1 posts, but going off of what I see in that case I would still very much rather lynch Shinori or GP. Randa's votes after Kay may just be a consequence of evolving thread content along with a lack of input from Kay, whereas Kay's interaction with GP feels more likely to be a scum!scum interaction.

[Vhaltz]

Also before I go to sleep, does bearclaw have a history of forgetting that his vote exists or phase-long intervals as town?

[Vhaltz]

for*

[Grace]

this just in: i poked bearclaw with my invisible gun (modprod)

Edited March 24, 2014 by Curly Brace

[Randa]

See, it's odd you say that. (Hi, I appear)

So, right, I was reading Randa's ISO, and he's doing a really weird thing. He's saying that he's ok with lynching Kay, but at the same time, he keeps pushing at Vhaltz about why Vhatlz was focusing so much on Kay. His whole case on Kay was based around a very thin case.

Says Kay was his biggest scum read, then dropped Kay down to second below Neko, dropped you on there and started pushing you about Kay, later completely dropped his Neko scum read because of the sub out, brings Psych up as his main scum read and unvotes Kay and doesn't vote anyone despite the fact that he said he'd want to vote Psych and Kay.

He then makes a post about these people that he finds scummy and then ends up voting SB because "I have a hard time reading him" So instead of voting someone that he actually thought was scum, he voted SB after giving a bunch of reasons why no matter who he voted he'd look scummy. After being pushed about his bad vote, he eventually went back to Psych, but that whole thing just looks really bad.

And then today he's given vague reads on two people, completely dropping his Neko case, his Prims case, his SB thoughts, and everyone else that he said he thought was scummy yesterday for seemingly no reason. Would lynch here.

##Unvote

##Vote:Randa

All of these are very valid points. But I have one question for you. Of the points you brought how many of them can't be explained by the evolution of the thread and the interaction between posters. I do believ ISOs are useful but sometimes things make more sense in the context they were posted. And I already addressed why I didn't like Neko.

[Prims]

Not really :V

Do you think he was bussing Kay yesterday?

i don't necessarily think he's scum im just annoyed we have a bunch of no-voters

A lot of the votes on me right now feel as though they're made with the intent of staying safe and falling on whichever wagon seems the most viable at present, and are inadequately reasoned. I think that some of the people questioning me (namely Prims and maybe SB) are town, whose suspicions are just founded too much on deflecting attention from themselves to a more popular target. Too many usually reliable scumhunters are being sidetracked by things like my posting style or wording, rather than the reasoning or the intent behind them. I do not want this to result in a mislynch.

this is super icky and passive-aggressive, what attention do i even have to deflect lmao

I feel iffy about Shin right now, mostly on gut. What made GP worse than bearclaw that wasn't available when you voted bearclaw? What changed your mind?

I think Kay coaching GP in-thread is null, scum can make pokes at other scumbuddies and it never became a real push.

I wish I had more to say but the game has mostly stagnated due to nonposters. Somebody should look into finding somebody willing to sub.

[Green Poet]

As promised, reads on scorri:

Focuses mostly on Vhaltz for D1, as a lot of us did. Gets a bit uncertain toward the end of D1 and becomes noncommittal about her votes, which is somewhat justified by Vhaltz's claim.

Votes bear on more or less the same reasoning as Shin and myself. He doesn't reply to her, so no progress in that regard.

Most recent vote on Randa is original, and not on a wagon. I agree with the logic behind it, too, and I'm getting town vibes from it.

That, and the unprompted and concise speculation about announcers/kill method toward the start of D2 makes me relatively confident that scorri's town.

and Shin:

I noticed NNM lurking a lot during D1 for some reason, and had vaguely suspected that he'd been hit by some sort of post restriction, but this clearly doesn't translate to Shin.

He spends more posts than I feel is necessary to reiterate his speculation about the Kay/Poly/BBM shot, though this doesn't indicate anything specifically.

Shin's bear vote is based on a two-line post. . . eh, the reasoning is solid, but rather sparse.

Then there's the vote on me, which I explained was factually off in a couple areas (my reason for voting Psych, and the timing of my posts). I'm most likely speaking through bias here, but his play so far doesn't strike me as particularly attentive.

Leaning slightly scummy at worst, null at best. Wouldn't be completely comfortable with lynching him just yet.

Oh, and

this is super icky and passive-aggressive

Really sorry if I sounded passive-aggressive in that last post. It wasn't my intention, and I'll try to tone it down.

[Refa]

Get Manix to sub in. Wonderful idea.