Training Filler - Game Over

[FrostyFireMage]

From where I'm standing Makaze's stance on Junko is seeming wishy-washy.

[Terrador]

Terrador, I need you to ease my concerns. I don't understand how you are reading Junko as null. Throughout the game, you've made entire cases against players that are playing how Junko is playing, but he's null to you? How can you explain this? It's the same thing with Vashiane, you're particularly lenient towards her lurking, but you pursue other players that display lurking habits. You said earlier that you thought Vashiane was confused since she was a first time player, but according to your actions the same sympathy doesn't apply to the other first time players. I really don't want to suspect you of being scum, but I cannot ignore these concerns. As scum, you'd have every motive of playing the way you are. That's not something I can say about the other players. It's still too early to seriously consider you as scum, but if Junko and Vashiane flips scum while ZeeEmm flips town, then I'd consider you my top scum-read.

Re: Junko: I've pretty much accepted that I can't read him. Some of his posts are scummy, some are contributing to town, and I've never been able to read him in either of the games we've played together. I'm funneling my attention to other players and letting people who aren't getting walled by Junko's post-fu do the reading on him. I don't consider him clean, just not a high-priority target.

Re: Vashiane: I have reason to believe she genuinely doesn't understand what's going on in the slightest, seeing as she's around all the time and actually sticks to projects she takes on. Everyone else, on the other hand, obviously has a basic understanding of the game, and therefore are open targets to pressure for scumslips.

Further, if you're okay with consolidating on ZM, why not vote now? It would encourage Pascal to consolidate (as it would empty the wagon on Junko completely).

----

Pascal: Staying on a wagon that's going nowhere and not consolidating to an actual lynch is, effectively, acting to cause a random lynch at the end of the Day. If you're that sure about Junko, make a convincing argument for scum intent behind his posts, and maybe he'll look shadier than ZM. Makaze's making good points; the way you're acting is in no way pro-Town.

[Junk]

Reviewing an ISO can often change one's opinion of a player, you know. I got lazy and thought GC's prior post was a definite scum tell. But his recent contributions have rectified my opinion of him.

Evidently there's some context surrounding Terrador about having a tendency to be active scum, so that's something worth recognizing.

I'm still not feeling the UFO lynch. Junko's been spending a lot of time analyzing me (which is fruitless since I'm town, BTW) which feels defensive. Nobody's standing out to me as much ATM so my vote stays.

where?

Statement here feels weird why would you feel the need to say that unless you were scum?

Will you at least give your thoughts on town players since apparently I am the only scummy player out there.

[Person123]

Further, if you're okay with consolidating on ZM, why not vote now? It would encourage Pascal to consolidate (as it would empty the wagon on Junko completely).

It's because of the 24 hour extension. If no new developments arise, and everyone seems like they'd want to consolidate, I would change my vote before going to bed tonight.

[Junk]

thoughts on the vanilla townie claim from zm everyone since I don't believe we have addressed this

[MRDRHAWK]

okay sorry I have been busy and have not had time to make a post of actual content

hopefully when shit clears up in my life I can actually make viable content posts but for now:

##Unvote

##Vote: Junko

reasons and bitching about the mad in this game later

[Eurykins]

Reviewing an ISO can often change one's opinion of a player, you know. I got lazy and thought GC's prior post was a definite scum tell. But his recent contributions have rectified my opinion of him.

Evidently there's some context surrounding Terrador about having a tendency to be active scum, so that's something worth recognizing.

I'm still not feeling the UFO lynch. Junko's been spending a lot of time analyzing me (which is fruitless since I'm town, BTW) which feels defensive. Nobody's standing out to me as much ATM so my vote stays.

Bolded statement sounds a bit waspish/defensive. You admit that you were lazy, and coasted on his ED1 gameplay, and it took you 'til almost mid D2 to backpedal and re-read him, following people calling you out (as even on ED2, you stated "My read on him hasn't changed"). Why so prickly then?

=> In addition, the main issue I had with the complete 180 read on GC is the fact that, you were not only careless in not keeping up with reading him/his posts, but you then say you changed your mind/opinions (which in itself isn't scummy) without saying what caused the change or how it happened. Claiming you "reviewed (his) ISO" doesn't mean anything if you don't have the quotes/posts and reasonable logic to back up your case/thoughts.

Elaborate on the Italicized? I'm willing to agree that Junko has been tunneling a bit, but your response in itself also seems defensive (pot meet kettle?).

Underlined: C'mon. Really? You have a habit of putting things at the end of your posts that pretty much insist that you have no other thoughts, reads, or anything on any others in the thread. The amount of tunneling you yourself have done (especially now that you're harping on Junko for doing so) kinda qualifies as bad gameplay in my mind, since you often lack explanations with your thoughts and/or with any changes to them.

Pascal... We need consolidation. You are neither switching your vote nor pushing for a lynch on Junko. You are in fact advocating a random lynch. That is a scum tell.

Please explain your logic.

What Makaze says is true- your attitude towards tunneling on Junko SOLELY and not wanting to compromise/consolidate a secondary lynch is actually detrimental anti-town play, because you're literally saying, "I'm voting X person, and I refuse to consolidate ANYONE ELSE" (even as there's 3 scum still around?).

You've been on Junko's case for a while, yet I'm the one advocating a random lynch?

You were supportive of my vote before, but now you think it's a scum tell? Going by this post you seem to recognize that my vote isn't "random".

Most people have been in favor of ZM/UFO during the day phase, your vote is basically stagnating on Junko at this point and time.

It's also the means/refusal to cooperate and otherwise remain flexible with the remaining players that's making you seem high-strung on Junko (and a bit narrow-minded in terms of cases/priorities). That, I'm guessing, is what's dropping the scum tell/vibe.

From where I'm standing Makaze's stance on Junko is seeming wishy-washy.

Makaze has remained pretty steady in the "having issues reading Junko" stance from what I can see in his posts. I don't see much issue with them.

thoughts on the vanilla townie claim from zm everyone since I don't believe we have addressed this

Null from me. Vanilla can be townie or scum. Doesn't say much or affect my thoughts/case against him any.

okay sorry I have been busy and have not had time to make a post of actual content

hopefully when shit clears up in my life I can actually make viable content posts but for now:

##Unvote

##Vote: Junko

reasons and bitching about the mad in this game later

This post feels really bad to me. ;/ Plopping a vote down "for reasons" and just disappearing feels really bad, and kinda scummy imo.

--> At this point, I'm feeling worse about Pascal. D1 was filled with coasting and GC hyper tunneling (and refused to consolidate at all in any means as well in town's interests), and D2 is a complete 180 on the original tunnel and has swapped to a second one (Junko). Amongst the gameplay, Pascal has seemed extremely closed-minded, and otherwise doesn't seem to care about what it means to play as a town-unit and to work with the rest of us townies. Has been quite sparse on contributing thoughts/opinions on people (aside from the 2 he's tunneled), and makes no effort to produce any others, and all in all, I'm getting a really anti-town vibe from his gameplay as a whole.

I'm still wanting a ZM/UFO lynch today, but willing to consolidate on Pascal or Junko if need be. (The first two are preferred though.)

[Makaze]

Eury is exactly right. Your tunneling and not having any other reads is not pro-town because you know that there are more than one mafia. Killing just one scum is not enough to win. If you know that, you should have at least two, if not three, ideas of who is scum, and if you want to side with town, you need extremely good reasons to side directly against other people who read another person as scum as you have done so far. You don't have any of those. How can you benefit town if you focus on killing just one scum when you know there are more than one out there?

[FrostyFireMage]

Is it really necessary to expand upon your reasons for voting someone when somebody else has already said what you're going to say?

My reasons for voting Junko have basically already been elaborated upon by Makaze. Repeating what others have said sounds really sheepy.

Since you seem curious, here are my reads on the other players:

Vash is null, due to her extremely scarce contributions.

Makaze seems town, according to his extensive posts. Although active mafia isn't particularly unheard of, of course. Eh. Trying to find anything overtly scummy to build a case around would be a trial and a half.

Terrador is like Makaze, except slightly scummier due to slight pushiness and his history playing as mafia.

UFO feels town/null to me. Feels more like a lost newbie than someone scummy.

Ciraxis has cleared mostly any doubt I had about him in Day 1 due to his unbiased contributions. Still could be scum who's done a crash course, I dunno

Poly is town/null. Although he's kinda guilty of the same thing as me (sure GC is scum and then retracting that statement later) he's been contributing well without going too far. Feels kinda sheepy with the GC vote too - like he found a sound reason to pick a townie off without picking apart posts. Regardless, he's in basically the same boat as Terrador/Makaze.

Blyvern's been ...kinda waffly and sheepy, TBH. First of all he voted GC because of my reasoning, then jumped onto Dudeaga for little reason and then back to GC and then back to Dudeaga and then tried to start a case on Terrador. Either he's scum or a impressionable newb townie. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt due to his Terrador vote (why vote for a mostly pro-town player when there are easier people to vote for) but he's second on my scum list.

Junko still seems like scum to me (voting for the most popular wagons/ most acceptable targets with little reasoning and then got on my case after I voted for him)

[Junk]

Is it really necessary to expand upon your reasons for voting someone when somebody else has already said what you're going to say?

My reasons for voting Junko have basically already been elaborated upon by Makaze. Repeating what others have said sounds really sheepy.

Since you seem curious, here are my reads on the other players:

Vash is null, due to her extremely scarce contributions.

Makaze seems town, according to his extensive posts. Although active mafia isn't particularly unheard of, of course. Eh. Trying to find anything overtly scummy to build a case around would be a trial and a half.

Terrador is like Makaze, except slightly scummier due to slight pushiness and his history playing as mafia.

UFO feels town/null to me. Feels more like a lost newbie than someone scummy.

Ciraxis has cleared mostly any doubt I had about him in Day 1 due to his unbiased contributions. Still could be scum who's done a crash course, I dunno

Poly is town/null. Although he's kinda guilty of the same thing as me (sure GC is scum and then retracting that statement later) he's been contributing well without going too far. Feels kinda sheepy with the GC vote too - like he found a sound reason to pick a townie off without picking apart posts. Regardless, he's in basically the same boat as Terrador/Makaze.

Blyvern's been ...kinda waffly and sheepy, TBH. First of all he voted GC because of my reasoning, then jumped onto Dudeaga for little reason and then back to GC and then back to Dudeaga and then tried to start a case on Terrador. Either he's scum or a impressionable newb townie. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt due to his Terrador vote (why vote for a mostly pro-town player when there are easier people to vote for) but he's second on my scum list.

Junko still seems like scum to me (voting for the most popular wagons/ most acceptable targets with little reasoning and then got on my case after I voted for him)

Okay first of all like a few posts ago you literally said blyvern was newb town but now he is scum? I will try to break down this post later but for some reason I just got a massive headache and it seems like it won't go anytime soon but this is one thing to make note of.

[Person123]

One question, why does ciraxis all of a sudden seem to change from scum to town? You called him overzealous town but why? You tunneled the fuck out of him on D1 and voted him again on D2 stating that your opinions haven't changed but the second terra calls you out on voting ciraxis you instantly decide to townread him and vote me without having any other reads at all? I ask that you state other scumreads even if it is based off gut.

Makaze: that isn't an answer. I still went through and I will admit that some people may have interpreted my dude case as sheeping but if you are scumreading me partly based off sheeping then it is YOUR job and not mine to give reasons.

Today, you vote for the easiest lynch target, and once a case is made against you; you dismiss it and point the FoS on someone else you feel would be an easy target, sheeping Terrador's initial day two post suspicions on Pascal. The other players at least make an effort to respond to other's criticisms, since doing so helps alleviate doubt, and makes town a more cohesive unit.

The best explanation for this action would be that you're actively distracting everyone else away from you.

I will say this about Pascal, earlier I posted that I don't see what scum!Pascal would gain from not consolidating at the end of the first day, but he's been making poor townplay decisions, so I cannot deny the possibility that he simply made a remarkably bad scum play.

[MRDRHAWK]

This post feels really bad to me. ;/ Plopping a vote down "for reasons" and just disappearing feels really bad, and kinda scummy imo.

Or maybe I just wanted to get my vote elsewhere and explain later since I didn't have much time...? Kinda nitpicky imo.

Not liking Junko's play at all today. Lemme see if I can break down each of his posts and see exactly what he's doing:

#207 - Basically, voting ZM because inactive. This isn't too bad, except there's plenty of others who were - and still are - very inactive. What made the few posts he's made stand out from, say, Vashi?

#222 - Picking at both Frosty reading him as scum for something he has admittedly been doing a lot this game, and at Blyvern for sheeping. The Blyvern point is valid... except that by this point, Bly already claimed as GP's Mason buddy. While I admittedly left my vote on him for a while, that was due to circumstances outside my control.

#226 - Reads kinda like OMGUS in both parts. Brings up a decent enough point wrt Frosty's sudden 180 onto him, but the tone kinda feels more like it comes from defensive scum than town. The answer to Makaze is bad also, since he doesn't make much of an effort to defend himself.

#264 - This is where I start feeling really bad about him. He makes a decent case on Frosty, but then proceeds to not vote him despite his case on his current vote, ZM, amounting to basically no content? What? If you have a case on someone, especially one with decent enough points, fucking vote them. This is a good content post that turned scummy in a heartbeat.

#278 - Tries to address something that has nothing to do with him, picks at FFM for meta that, shockingly enough for this game, does actually exist, and tries to prod Frosty into giving other reads, which I will note he has done since then.

#280 - Trying to push discussion off of him and onto someone else - namely, the person he's currently voteparking on. Feels like he's just grasping at any potential case he can get to justify not changing his vote, which is idiotic due to the aforementioned Frosty case.

#285 - Not much to see here. Says he'll break down the post, but he should just be defending himself, which he's doing a piss-poor job of doing so far.

Overall, he hasn't been doing much in the way of town play except in parts of his interactions with Frosty, which isn't enough to change much.

Also, wrt my sudden read change on Ciraxis, I went back over him and decided that he had been playing better later in the day, plus other reasons I'm not going into because it would essentially mean that I'd have to claim, which isn't a logical move for me right now.

I would like to hear a claim from Junko though, since I'm pretty sure he didn't claim unless it was D1, which I kinda just skimmed because I wanted to address his abysmal D2 play.

[Makaze]

I can't stress the need to consolidation enough. We are at a bad spot here.

[Refa]

Ugh, do I actually have to do something that doesn't involve posting GIF's? RAGE. Since my mentee isn't here and phase is ending soon, I'll claim for him (told him not to claim unless it was absolutely necessary, and now it is but he's not here RIP). BPV Weak Watcher Survivor 2-Shot Vigilante Rogue, targeted Terrador yesterday (spoiler alert- noone visited him).

[Makaze]

Ugh, do I actually have to do something that doesn't involve posting GIF's? RAGE. Since my mentee isn't here and phase is ending soon, I'll claim for him (told him not to claim unless it was absolutely necessary, and now it is but he's not here RIP). BPV Weak Watcher Survivor 2-Shot Vigilante Rogue, targeted Terrador yesterday (spoiler alert- noone visited him).

Please present crumbs for this role. We don't even know that a watcher exists in the game.

[charlie_]

MENTOR POST

You shouldn't immediately trust or distrust a claim based on the existence of crumbs, considering that it's unlikely a newer player would think of them and the mentors only get a chance to do so once a day so it's not particularly likely they would do it either. Remember, the lack of crumbs was what got the Doctor lynched, so this is hardly condemning.

That said, if anyone can prove the claim wrong, now would be the time to speak up.

[Makaze]

How will they learn if we don't punish them for their mistakes?

But you raise a good point.

[Person123]

It's suspiciously convenient for Junko that he's not here to address everyone's concerns, even at the end of the phase. At least Dudeaga didn't blatantly dismiss the cases made against him. About his claim, there's nothing I know that could disprove it.

It would be nice if everyone checked in with the thread now, I'd rather not have to wait for the last 10 minutes before we consolidate.

[Makaze]

It is possible that he is a mafia watcher. It was a given option.

Even so, I say we lynch ZeeEmm today and lynch Junko tomorrow. We do not have anywhere near enough time to shift enough votes to Junko today.

I fully support lynching him, but I need to stress the anti-town behavior that is going for a random lynch. If you think they are both scummy, then please vote the one more likely to be lynched so that we kill someone scummy instead of one of us.

[Person123]

Even so, I say we lynch ZeeEmm today and lynch Junko tomorrow. We do not have anywhere near enough time to shift enough votes to Junko today.

I suppose you're right. ZeeEmm and Junko are still both my top two scum-reads. I'll take what I can get for now.

##Unvote

##Vote ZeeEmm/UFO

[Eurykins]

Going over Pascal's list:

Italicized are reads I have no issues with.

Bolded are reads I have problems with.

Is it really necessary to expand upon your reasons for voting someone when somebody else has already said what you're going to say?

My reasons for voting Junko have basically already been elaborated upon by Makaze. Repeating what others have said sounds really sheepy.

Since you seem curious, here are my reads on the other players:

Vash is null, due to her extremely scarce contributions.

Makaze seems town, according to his extensive posts. Although active mafia isn't particularly unheard of, of course. Eh. Trying to find anything overtly scummy to build a case around would be a trial and a half.

Terrador is like Makaze, except slightly scummier due to slight pushiness and his history playing as mafia.

UFO feels town/null to me. Feels more like a lost newbie than someone scummy.

Ciraxis has cleared mostly any doubt I had about him in Day 1 due to his unbiased contributions. Still could be scum who's done a crash course, I dunno

Poly is town/null. Although he's kinda guilty of the same thing as me (sure GC is scum and then retracting that statement later) he's been contributing well without going too far. Feels kinda sheepy with the GC vote too - like he found a sound reason to pick a townie off without picking apart posts. Regardless, he's in basically the same boat as Terrador/Makaze.

Blyvern's been ...kinda waffly and sheepy, TBH. First of all he voted GC because of my reasoning, then jumped onto Dudeaga for little reason and then back to GC and then back to Dudeaga and then tried to start a case on Terrador. Either he's scum or a impressionable newb townie. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt due to his Terrador vote (why vote for a mostly pro-town player when there are easier people to vote for) but he's second on my scum list.

Junko still seems like scum to me (voting for the most popular wagons/ most acceptable targets with little reasoning and then got on my case after I voted for him)

1. Makaze statement basically says, "He seems town 'cause he's been active + his extensive posts, but then again Active Mafia can still be a plausible thing. But I find trying to build a case against to be too time-consuming and overall tiresome."

2. You still never explained your UFO read AT ALL. You're like a broken record, Pascal- you keep saying he seems more newbie in some way than scum, but you never give us proof, links, quotes, etc. to support your thoughts/case. And if he feels town to you, he certainly shouldn't seem like a NULL read either.

3. You basically do the same thing with GC as UFO, except you tack on at the end, "Buuuuuuuuuut he still could just be scum, idk.". Still, you fail to explain anything wrt your support, so I'm still highly skeptical of your change on him since D1.

4. Poly has his reason on his own, which I gathered from his post, which is why I find his opinion change (and the implications behind what he said) fine. You, on the other hand, don't seem to have said info to run on to change your mind, but you still did. So no, I don't think he's guilty of doing the same thing you've done with GC. I also don't interpret the wall response (in which he had his GC vote) as really sheeping someone else's case (and he did have 2-3 posts that he had massive issues with against GC- how much more do you need to have issues with before someone warrants a vote for scumminess?). And again with the "town/null"? If he's feeling town to you, he's certainly not a null read. And likewise, if he's a null tell, then you shouldn't have a vibe in either direction (scum/town). So having those two listed next to each other makes little to no sense.

5. As you can tell above, I do agree with part of your Blyvern case myself; however, what bothers me is that, like the majority of the reads posted, you keep saying, "Could be scum or some sort of newb townie." Yeah, I get that this is a NEWBIE mafia game, but your reads have so little conviction in them that it sorta bothers/worries me. Lack of solid reads makes your cases on people seem extremely flimsy at best, because you're basically wall-sitting and refusing to take a firm stance on someone (aside from Junko and GC- but we've seen the latter change, so that's kinda null and void in this argument), which I find pretty scummy.

Or maybe I just wanted to get my vote elsewhere and explain later since I didn't have much time...? Kinda nitpicky imo.

Not liking Junko's play at all today. Lemme see if I can break down each of his posts and see exactly what he's doing:

#207 - Basically, voting ZM because inactive. This isn't too bad, except there's plenty of others who were - and still are - very inactive. What made the few posts he's made stand out from, say, Vashi?

#222 - Picking at both Frosty reading him as scum for something he has admittedly been doing a lot this game, and at Blyvern for sheeping. The Blyvern point is valid... except that by this point, Bly already claimed as GP's Mason buddy. While I admittedly left my vote on him for a while, that was due to circumstances outside my control.

#226 - Reads kinda like OMGUS in both parts. Brings up a decent enough point wrt Frosty's sudden 180 onto him, but the tone kinda feels more like it comes from defensive scum than town. The answer to Makaze is bad also, since he doesn't make much of an effort to defend himself.

#264 - This is where I start feeling really bad about him. He makes a decent case on Frosty, but then proceeds to not vote him despite his case on his current vote, ZM, amounting to basically no content? What? If you have a case on someone, especially one with decent enough points, fucking vote them. This is a good content post that turned scummy in a heartbeat.

#278 - Tries to address something that has nothing to do with him, picks at FFM for meta that, shockingly enough for this game, does actually exist, and tries to prod Frosty into giving other reads, which I will note he has done since then.

#280 - Trying to push discussion off of him and onto someone else - namely, the person he's currently voteparking on. Feels like he's just grasping at any potential case he can get to justify not changing his vote, which is idiotic due to the aforementioned Frosty case.

#285 - Not much to see here. Says he'll break down the post, but he should just be defending himself, which he's doing a piss-poor job of doing so far.

Overall, he hasn't been doing much in the way of town play except in parts of his interactions with Frosty, which isn't enough to change much.

Also, wrt my sudden read change on Ciraxis, I went back over him and decided that he had been playing better later in the day, plus other reasons I'm not going into because it would essentially mean that I'd have to claim, which isn't a logical move for me right now.

I would like to hear a claim from Junko though, since I'm pretty sure he didn't claim unless it was D1, which I kinda just skimmed because I wanted to address his abysmal D2 play.

If you don't have much time to post, that's fine. Take the time to post when you can, and avoid dropping a vote and stating at the end, "reasons and bitching about the mad in this game later" (worst case scenario, that ends up as the last post of the day phase for you, and all in all, that seems really bad post as a whole, at least to me). It's not hard to say, "I have a case that I will fully explain later" to let us know that you at least had the intention of elaborating on said case.

Also, unless I'm mistaken/missed a post, I'm pretty sure the majority of the players (active/posting ones anyways) are aware of why your read changed on Ciraxis (or at least, from the implications/crumbs from your post beforehand), so not sure the italicized statement needed to be elaborated on (again).

Wrt Junko's apparent Watcher claim: To me, this is another claim (like Vanilla) that's pretty null and doesn't really affect my case/thoughts on him. Can easily be scum or town (and I think they were both listed as possibilities as well).

[Terrador]

Sorry I haven't been contributing much in the past day or so; I've just generally been super out of it and getting nothing done. I've been keeping up with the thread, and Junko's appearing scummier by the day--that said, ZM is at 5/6 to Junko's 2/6, and deadline is in just a few hours. A friendly reminder that we need to consolidate and direct the lynch. I assume that Blyvern, Pascal, Vashiane, and Polydeuces would prefer a targeted lynch on ZM to a random lynch, hm?

[MRDRHAWK]

Wait, Junko claimed Watcher?

Yeah, that claim means I still wanna lynch him. I'll consolidate in a little bit, though, if we can't get things going on the Junko wagon.

[Eurykins]

Wait, Junko claimed Watcher?

Yeah, that claim means I still wanna lynch him. I'll consolidate in a little bit, though, if we can't get things going on the Junko wagon.

Is this implying that you're holding a CC against him? The latter half of your statement isn't exactly supporting of that (if you're a solid CC, you may as well say it straight and confirm if he is or isn't lying to us about being a Town Watcher).

[MRDRHAWK]

Well, I doubt that Manix would put Town Watcher in alongside the role I have. I'll just say that.