Training Filler - Game Over

[Junk]

One question, why does ciraxis all of a sudden seem to change from scum to town? You called him overzealous town but why? You tunneled the fuck out of him on D1 and voted him again on D2 stating that your opinions haven't changed but the second terra calls you out on voting ciraxis you instantly decide to townread him and vote me without having any other reads at all? I ask that you state other scumreads even if it is based off gut.

Makaze: that isn't an answer. I still went through and I will admit that some people may have interpreted my dude case as sheeping but if you are scumreading me partly based off sheeping then it is YOUR job and not mine to give reasons.

[Terrador]

Sadly, I'm not seeing anything in the last day or so that strikes me as suspicious, so I really have nothing to add here. ZM still looks shadiest to me, especially now that he's claimed "oh yeah I'll totes be active during the weekend, ISOs coming soon" and then failed to deliver.

As for why I'm not voting your lynch pick, [insert whoever thinks their lynch is better than mine]:

-Junko: I'm null-reading him right now. He's posting a bit less than usual, but I could attribute that pretty easily to Persona 3 and Shining Force, where walling got railed on for being anti-Town. I know I started being a lot more concise this game because of that.

-Blyvern: It's literally guaranteed that there's another Mason alive, and I'd think that with my and Poly's suspicion of him, a CC would pretty much guarantee a Blyvern lynch. I'm inclined to believe he's really shitty town, unless someone claims against him.

-Me: ...ha, no~

[Makaze]

One question, why does ciraxis all of a sudden seem to change from scum to town? You called him overzealous town but why? You tunneled the fuck out of him on D1 and voted him again on D2 stating that your opinions haven't changed but the second terra calls you out on voting ciraxis you instantly decide to townread him and vote me without having any other reads at all? I ask that you state other scumreads even if it is based off gut.

Makaze: that isn't an answer. I still went through and I will admit that some people may have interpreted my dude case as sheeping but if you are scumreading me partly based off sheeping then it is YOUR job and not mine to give reasons.

I've given reasons. Frankly, I'm tired of trying at this point. If people see what I mean, they'll vote for you. Most of the times I've pointed out the oddities in your behavior, you've ignored them, and so have others.

I'm not interested in wasting more time repeating myself.

Once again, look at my ISO.

[Terrador]

We have three people who aren't even trying to post, there's no fresh stuff to read on because of it, there's no consolidation or time for consolidation, and our host is requesting a sub. We seriously need an extension. Could this be so?

##Formally Requesting Extension. If you're protown, you'll do the same.

[Junk]

agreed with the extension thing

## Requesting Extension

[Grace]

I will only give an extension if the players step up and make an effort to play, or if a majority of the playerlist explicitly states they are busy.

Edit: on phone, votals and timecount later

Edited May 26, 2014 by Curly Brace

[Terrador]

At very least, we need some subbing out going on. Over a fifth of the game not even having played is just a wee bit ridiculous.

[Grace]

Votals: im lazy

UFO (3): Makaze, Terrador, Do Not Edit Posts Guy

Do Not Edit Posts Guy (2): Pascal, General Ciraxis

Blyvern (1): Poly

Terrador (1): Blyvern

Not Voting (3): Vashiane, Eury, UFO

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have 17 hours and 20 minutes left in the day.

Eury takes YoungXehanort's slot, effective immediately.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Curly Brace

[Baldrick]

MENTOR POST INCOMING

I do not agree with the extension; if town can't get their shit together in 72 hours and decide a lynch, they deserve to lose. If people were active, I might acquiesce, but the time will definitely be wasted.

This is what I suggest. Our slot is obviously not being lynched because we're an unCC'd Mason. The three non-voters and Poly should vote for one of the other three wagons (people with votes). Then everyone on the smallest wagon vote for one of the other two (In a 4-3-3 situation, the 3-man wagon with the most recent vote will be considered the smallest). If we're tied at 5-5, someone who is unsure changes, or use our vote as a tiebreaker, or whatever.

To be honest, my preference would be ##Request to make this a majority lynch game because hammer games are unnecessarily strict.

Blyvern was on just before, I don't know why he's not posting. I'll put down everything I have on Terrador (Eury/Vhaltz, note what I'm doing!)

Scum!Terrador has motive to do what he did on D1. Especially if Ciraxis is also town, getting a hammer makes 100% chance of a ML rather than 75% if no majority was reached. In any case, it was also in their best interest to push for Dudeaga's lynch; it meant they could kill whoever they liked without worrying about the chance that he would protect them, and having to NK him instead means they lose out on a mislynch. Note his fervour in trying to get the lynch through D1, compared to today, with his target only needing 3 votes to be lynched, he seems to not want to lynch him at all. Such a change in demeanour strikes me as odd.

It's a minor point, but I feel like he's trying to smear Blyvern to reduce his credibility. Attack the argument please, not the person. IMO only scum who know a case is legit feel the need to do the latter

His activity is not necessarily a towntell. In two previous games, Persona and Drafters, Terrador was among the most active posters, and turned out to be scum in both of them. So, it may well be part of his meta (pattern of behaviour) as scum; he likes to be active and try to influence the lynch rather than be inactive and hope he doesn't get picked.

GP said in the mason chat before she died that Terrador's lack of reaction towards Vashiane's vote containing a post and nothing else was strange. He says "be sure to ask if you don't understand" which struck her as artificial and possibly a way to make it look as though they weren't discussing it in the scumchat. (I don't understand it fully, just paraphrasing)

But this is only really relevant if one flips scum.

[Eurykins]

Why hello thar guys. I'm rather disappointed that the one I mentored for has been pretty dead in-thread/game (and hasn't spoken to me once wrt to it), so I'm here to pick up the slack. If you guys have enough time to sit idle and not contribute, then you obviously have enough time to read the incoming post. [i'm not known as the "The Queen of Wallposts" for nothing, and there's a lot for me to cover. So without further ado, time to get down to business.]

DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY

Day 1 Notes:

- I felt that this post/vote was okay, given that GC tried a little too hard to validate a vote/case.

- This post feels a bit weak/graspy in terms of the case on Makaze.

- I sense an odd bit of hesitation in the vote on Xeno here. There's about a 20 minute gap between this post and the one prior (in which you said that you meant to include a vote on Xeno for/in), and the fact that the vote change happens as a result of being prompted by someone else, and I also will agree with Makaze that your lack of vote on him (Makaze) and then jumping on Xeno instead feels pretty easy.

- Having some trouble deciphering this post- I think the stuff was answered inside the quote(s) themselves?

- I can see the logic behind the vote/thoughts here but I get the feeling that this post as a whole was more padded/fluffed up than it needed to be.

- These two posts seem townie enough in backing down from the doc claim. However, when voting for GC, I see little in your prior posts that suggests a heavier scum read on GC than Dudeaga. This makes me wonder if there was some distancing factor happening as D1 wore down.

Day 2 Notes:

- ZM Vote here feels a bit easy, and there's not much depth to the logic/reasoning either.

- Sometimes it only takes one post/slip to catch someone as scum.

- I actually think he makes fair points WRT the GC tunneling on D1 (From Pascal).

- Eh, not sure I'd agree so easily with it.

- Overall: Having some glitches/issues with his gameplay, and it's lack of consistency and some questionable content. Slightly scummy vibes atm.

ZM/UFO

Day 1 Notes:

- You seem a bit self-conscious wrt your RVS "bandwagon" vote here.

- Don't see why you make the whole unvoting process seem so dramatic needlessly. Also, this line: "I see that Ciraxis has the majority of the vote, but I don't think I'll vote for anyone until I see something that warrants suspicion. *feels out of place*" feels like an easy way to avoid putting out any votes/reads on people.

- So you say you have no scumreads here and that you need more time to analyze posts, yet you comment that you want the game to pick up in pace? Sounds a bit weird to me.

- While I admit that the notion against Dudeaga is true here, I find it strange that it's the only issue you seem to have worth noting amongst the rest of the players.

Day 2 Notes:

- This post sounds really bad to me. Limited computer time and school, I can see. But if you know you only have a set amount of time, and would only manage a few posts at most, why not make them count in terms of quality?

- Assurance does little when scum can just as easily insist that they're town to the rest of us.

- Being aggressive =/= Being townie. In addition, the notion/comment aimed at Vash sounds kinda bad in this post as well, since you're not doing much but commenting on an inactive player.

- Forgive me with this notion, but I don't really think this is true at all.

- You keep talking about things you ARE doing or planning to do, and then drop more comments that do utterly NOTHING to give us more thoughts, cases, etc. Not helpful at all.

Overall: I feel like ZM/UFO is by far one of the laziest players in terms of content. Even if he was busy, the lack of meaningful content bothers me greatly, and I feel his vote on Dudeaga D1 was an extremely easy one (I don't recall him ever stating his thoughts on GC either, which calls into question why he didn't consider BOTH candidates before voting, but just chose to remove/vote for Dudeaga [despite the doc claim as well].) Scummy until proven clean.

Blyvern

Day 1 Notes:

- Sheeping Pascal's case/vote on GC.

- Just because someone may not accept/like your case (or approve of a point) doesn't make them automatically scum.

- So, you're on the fence near end of D1, and you vote for your SECOND highest scum read? (rather than who's SCUMMIER than the other?) That's really odd.

- This feels like you're trying hard to validate the above post/vote (which was bad in itself), which kinda makes things feel worse. Also, the asked question (even if they did flip scum) is not one they'd likely answer honestly anyways, so I don't see the point in asking it, honestly. [scum wouldn't paint themselves/their Night actions out so carelessly/out in the open for town's PR's to read/counter with their own.]

- This post feels bad to me; you say that "Ciraxis's latest post cleared my suspicions mostly", but you don't explain how or why. AKA. This Dudeaga vote seems pretty easy.

- WRT this post:

~ Fake claims do exist, and scum often use it because there are some roles (ie. Rolecop) that, more often than not, end up being Scum-sided.

~ You're right- any townie with any sort of concern for town's well-being should be wary of a doc claim and its legitimacy. It's one of the most valuable PR's available in terms of keeping people alive.

~ It's easy enough to prove his Doc role- let him use his night action. Best case scenario, he successfully protects someone and no one dies during the night. Not too hard.

~ PR roles like Doc, Cop, etc. generally aren't roles you want to outright claim unless you absolutely HAVE to. Having claimed while being at L-1 or L-2 isn't bad gameplay at all.

~ You seem to disbelieve his doc claim, even as there was no Counter-claim, there was a chance for him to prove himself (or else he would've been shot by Mafia N1, since they rarely let Docs live for long), and otherwise don't seem to take what he said into much consideration. Kinda weird/close-minded for a townie player, isn't it?

Day 2 Notes:

- WRT this post:

~ You pick out Terrador and Vashiane: The former for being... "too-townie"? and the latter for being inactive. Why isn't Xehanort on the list as well for being just as inactive (if not moreso)?

~ Looking at the "suspicious quotes":

1. Active townies do win games. Prompting people to be active, post meaningful content, and otherwise be ALIVE in the game is by no means an anti-town gameplay. If Terrador was scum, and activity was lacking, why would scum try to pick up the slack instead of letting the day phases coast on by without much content?

2. You guys needed 7 votes to hammer the lynch target. Any less would have resulted in a RANDOM lynch. Simple logic is simple.

3. Terrador pointed out the fact that someone was lurking in the thread. AKA. They came by, saw what was happening, and then chose not to post any thoughts, concerns, vote changes/adjustments, etc. It was a valid concern, as scum can often lurk and do nothing, so long as the wagon(s) that happen are almost guaranteed to nail town rather than a scumbuddy of theirs.

4. Concern about not getting a hammer/direct lynch done at the end of D1. Valid concern.

5 and 6. Time is an issue. When the phase comes to an end, the hammer has to be reached to secure said lynch on someone people WANT to lynch.

7. Since I'm tired of beating a dead horse, I'll put it simply: There are/were 9 town, and 3 scum in D1. Had a RANDOM LYNCH occurred, as opposed to a targeted one, chances are 3x more likely to nail a random TOWNIE as opposed to scum. (In addition, it also puts the possibility of you yourself up on the chopping block as well, and as town, you'd be concerned with the fact that the lynch could potentially fall on your head as well [and if you're TOWN, then you'd KNOW that it'd end up as a MISLYNCH]. Therefore, it was highly in town's interests to instead aim the lynch at someone who they felt warranted it, rather than RNG'ing who gets killed that day phase.

~ The question(s) you aim at Vashiane and YX make little to no sense at all, either, wrt to who they'd protect. Also, why take the time to explicitly ask the INACTIVE posters/players their thoughts on GC and Terrador specifically?

Overall: Blyvern's voting near the end of D1 makes little to almost no sense, gives little concern wrt Doc claim, and D2 content consists on finding someone scummy for being pro-town and encouraging town to pick up their act and get the game rolling. Just... what? Scummy until proven clean.

Pascal

Day 1 Notes:

- Voting for someone for a small amount of reason (especially near/in RVS state) is a norm, and generally yields reaction tests, responses, etc. Getting out of RVS also isn't an anti-town move at all, and admitting that they made a mistake ("back-tracking") in itself isn't necessarily scummy. Also... this was still in RVS- what is there to be SURE about in RVS?

- I agree with the Ascetic comment here but DISAGREE with claiming things like COP roles. That just gets you into trouble, unless you're claiming INFORMATION along with it (AKA. "I found X to be read as "scum" during the last night phase.")

- Just because you feel that "you're sure you got one scum" doesn't mean you stop producing content or otherwise stop scumhunting for the day phase. That just screams lazy gameplay as a whole, and you're basically coasting on your earlier GC posts/content.

- I sense townie doubt/double-guessing of the Doc claim here. Not a lot of reads on other people though, so that seems a bit lacking. Also, the comment wrt to GC possibly getting COACHED? Seems a bit weird, since you know- BOTH TOWN AND SCUM ALIKE HAVE MENTORS, which means that yeah, everyone in this game has been coached to some extent?

Day 2 Notes:

- Renewed vote on GC and no changes in your case against him.

- You state here that your mindset on GC has changed, but you don't say how, why he suddenly seems like, "Overzealous townie" as opposed to downright scummy (since ED1), or what posts/notions specifically caused it. Quite frankly, I'm figuring you're actually choosing to back off of GC this day phase because of the amount of people who posted ED2 stating that GC's latest posts had painted himself in a much more townie light (and you backpedaled away from constantly calling him scummy because at this point, it'd seem very strange to do so).

- Also, the notion in the above post ("Argh, I can't get much of a read on many of the other players. STOP PLAYING SO WELL") also feels like a really bad excuse to not have any other reads/thoughts wrt the rest of the players in the game.

- This post sounds weird. Just because a vote is strange doesn't mean that it can't have scum intent behind it; what I felt/got from the Terrador post was that he was trying to paint pro-townie actions in a negative light (which would call into question the town reads that most people have currently on Terrador), which is very possibly an option for scum to attempt to do. In addition, jumping on an easy wagon isn't always what scum would want to do, as it'd just make it easier to tag later on by townies.

- Overall: I'm disliking quite a few of Pascal's posts since D1, and the lack of insight/thoughts I'm garnering from his posts basically spells out to me that he's playing really bad/lazy as town, or he's scum. Heavily leaning scum here.

Makaze

Day 1 Notes:

- Seems a bit overeager, but otherwise not a scum/town tell, imo.

- Semi-reasonable logic/careful gameplay here though I'll say this straight out: Voting based on gut feeling isn't always a bad thing, so I don't see it as worrisome gameplay (unless, after a day phase/pages of content, you have nothing BUT "gut feelings" (and no actual cases), and in that case, I can see it as being highly questionable).

- Nooooot exactly the best logic to go by, but don't see a scummy intent with this post, unless you're implying that you're trying to solve the "scummy vibes" you always have by posting more quantity of posts.

- Don't really understand the "defense" here (not all scum seek to go unnoticed in games), and also, Mafia always have a reason for their kills, whether it's due to what they believe is a town PR, or a strong player in general.

- Solid post and the points against DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY are reasonable. Though I wonder- despite the valid points you brought up, did it not warrant a vote swap to him?

- If you saw these as SCUMMY BEHAVIOR, why did you never vote him (even at this point)?

- This post feels weird to me: You start off by saying: "I got town reads on several of Ciraxis's posts by comparison and am not as comfortable with that wagon as I would like to be." (and openly state that you agree with the cases against Dudeaga/finding him scummy), but then you follow it up with: "I see you viewing the thread. If you don't reply, I will have to vote you. You have no reason not to offer your reads."? I don't quite understand/see the need for basically threatening him for a vote leaning towards his hammer/lynch in D1?

- Somewhat pro-town attitude to this post, imo, though "Not voting to protect yourself" wouldn't really happen, especially in this game (for town or scum), because not reaching a hammer = random lynch (So even in the off-chance that they delay a targeted lynch in favor of a random one, they could still die).

Day 2 Notes:

- Focusing on one or two people who either show signs of no life or little to no chance to respond to any point(s) = not worth focusing over moreso than the players in the game. YX and Vashi were the only two who had little to no content, and choosing to target them solely (as opposed to looking at more of the posted content) is generally not the best gameplay. (And even if both flipped had flipped scum, there's still 1 scum remaining amongst the other, more active players. So all in all- it's still worth more to hunt amongst what's already been said/done/posted than to just stick votes on inactives [and basically just leaving your vote useless and hanging on them].)

- Overall: Though I sensed some questionable content (and commented on it already), I don't get any real anti-town vibes from the majority of said posts. Leaning town here.

General Ciraxis

Day 1 Notes:

- Seems a bit nitpicky, but it's during RVS stage, so not much else could be expected.

- Don't really see Terra's question/"food-for-thought" post as having scum intent- just seems more like he was trying to get thoughts from people to help get the game started.

- RVS votes open the game, and the votes themselves often are NOT justified, nor do they have to be. Acting randomly is also not always scumtell, and it's more often the intent that you need to seek/find, not just the actions themselves, for the scumtells.

- Okay post, though the notion of "He seems like he's pro-town, but that's what a good scum player would try to do" on Poly feels weird to me. It's like you're painting him out to be townie... sort of, but then backpedaling and telling us to keep an eye on him? (And if Poly came off as 'pro-town' to you [but you're concerned that he's actually scum that's pulling off the townie facade really well], what does that mean for the rest of the "town reads" you have? Does that apply to anyone else?)

- WRT This post:

~ He claimed DOCTOR. The only way for him to "prove" his role would be during the night phase, and most likely he would've been shot/killed by scum (docs/cops/etc. = prime NK targets).

~ Sheeping in itself is not inherently scummy. Town can easily sheep decent cases, as can scum.

~ The blue text you highlighted = Reads on Poly/Makaze that he had hunches/gut reads on (so of course it's not going to have lots of justification), and the case against you? (Your reaction itself was pretty bad, imo, so I don't see how that is without justification).

~ Red bolded text just seems... weird. Why wouldn't Mafia be on the look-out for crumbs and whatnot of PR's that people could easily be dropping? Also, crumbing a role like Doc/Cop/etc. really isn't something that you'd want to do, so it's seems understandable for Dudeaga to not do so earlier.

Day 2 Notes:

- I can see your Junko case here, but what kinda confuses me is this statement: "Secondly, ZeeEmm's play-style is certainly anti-town, but when compared to Junko, he appears to lack scum intent."

1. Anti-town = Pro-scum. So clearly, hosting an anti-town action/post has scum intent in itself.

2. "He's far more conservative with his votes, and his activity is more consistent with a new townie than a new scum." What makes his activity "newbie town" and not possibly "newbie scum"? YX/Vashi both haven't posted up much of anything, and I certainly didn't sub into a scum slot, thanks. While others like Makaze are cranking out more and more posts, and they're still newer members.

3. Also, withholding voting (aka. being more conservative with them) can also not only be lazy in terms of not putting pressure where it needs to be, but also can be an easy way to place a vote down and then coast with it, which can be just as scummy (if not moreso) than Junko's constant vote-swapping.

- Overall: I can see why GC was the wagon (next to Dudeaga) D1, and though some of his posts later D1 did read sorta townie, I'm not entirely sold on him being cleared in my books. Null, until further notice.

Polydeuces

Day 1 Notes:

- Logic/cases seem okay, but seems a bit more fluffed up/padded of a wall post than needed.

- Remains steadfast in not wanting to lynch Dudeaga.

Day 2 Notes:

- Crumbing a role/reason as to not have to worry so much about GC. Okay then.

- Overall: Not really seeing/having issues with his gameplay (and most of his wallposts that I chose not to link = I had no problems with). So probably one of the strongest town reads currently.

Terrador

Day 1 Notes:

- Asked quite a few questions ED1, which I felt was good (got the game/ball rolling and prompted some thoughts/posts from you guys).

- Probs one of the few questions I didn't really care for- massclaiming can be dangerous, especially early in the day phases for town.

- Can see the logic behind this vote/case.

- Late D1 posts: I don't see the issues with. I myself ( as a mentor) felt the need to also post wrt the whole voting/hammer that needed to occur to secure a TARGETED lynch, because many of you players seemed to be sitting back on your hands and not getting your shit together.

Day 2 Notes:

- Fair points/voting.

- Only is a decent call if there's legitimate reason for it. However, asking for an extension does NOT excuse slacking gameplay, imo.

- Overall: Probably sitting around the same level as Polydeuces.

TL;DR:

Pretty Damn Scummy: Blyvern, ZM/UFO

Slightly Scummy: Pascal, DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY

Null: GC

Probs Town: Makaze, Poly, Terrador

##Vote ZM/UFO

[j00]

I'm not even following this game but can I just interject to say that Eury ascends her title in the most impressive SF mafia wallpost I've ever seen

there's not even quotes or pictures to bump up the size, I'm slightly awed

[Refa]

[BBM]

MENTOR POST

I think she had a longer one in SF3 but it had SPOILER TAGS

Also I'm trying to get Poly to do something but he isn't ;_; I think he's sleeping now though, but hopefully when he wakes up he'll post something.

[Makaze]

Makaze

Day 1 Notes:

- Seems a bit overeager, but otherwise not a scum/town tell, imo.

- Semi-reasonable logic/careful gameplay here though I'll say this straight out: Voting based on gut feeling isn't always a bad thing, so I don't see it as worrisome gameplay (unless, after a day phase/pages of content, you have nothing BUT "gut feelings" (and no actual cases), and in that case, I can see it as being highly questionable).

- Nooooot exactly the best logic to go by, but don't see a scummy intent with this post, unless you're implying that you're trying to solve the "scummy vibes" you always have by posting more quantity of posts.

- Don't really understand the "defense" here (not all scum seek to go unnoticed in games), and also, Mafia always have a reason for their kills, whether it's due to what they believe is a town PR, or a strong player in general.

- Solid post and the points against DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY are reasonable. Though I wonder- despite the valid points you brought up, did it not warrant a vote swap to him?

- If you saw these as SCUMMY BEHAVIOR, why did you never vote him (even at this point)?

- This post feels weird to me: You start off by saying: "I got town reads on several of Ciraxis's posts by comparison and am not as comfortable with that wagon as I would like to be." (and openly state that you agree with the cases against Dudeaga/finding him scummy), but then you follow it up with: "I see you viewing the thread. If you don't reply, I will have to vote you. You have no reason not to offer your reads."? I don't quite understand/see the need for basically threatening him for a vote leaning towards his hammer/lynch in D1?

- Somewhat pro-town attitude to this post, imo, though "Not voting to protect yourself" wouldn't really happen, especially in this game (for town or scum), because not reaching a hammer = random lynch (So even in the off-chance that they delay a targeted lynch in favor of a random one, they could still die).

Day 2 Notes:

- Focusing on one or two people who either show signs of no life or little to no chance to respond to any point(s) = not worth focusing over moreso than the players in the game. YX and Vashi were the only two who had little to no content, and choosing to target them solely (as opposed to looking at more of the posted content) is generally not the best gameplay. (And even if both flipped had flipped scum, there's still 1 scum remaining amongst the other, more active players. So all in all- it's still worth more to hunt amongst what's already been said/done/posted than to just stick votes on inactives [and basically just leaving your vote useless and hanging on them].)

- Overall: Though I sensed some questionable content (and commented on it already), I don't get any real anti-town vibes from the majority of said posts. Leaning town here.

Glad to have you back. Or to have you at all instead of your mentee (not sure of the word); thank you.

The 'bad logic' regarding posting as much as possible was that if I were going to be lynched that early (as I expected to be), I might as well get as many reactions as I can before that happens. I'm still surprised I'm alive, but my attitude has changed as I've realized just how difficult it can be to lynch someone in a hammer game.

I didn't vote Junko and still haven't because it is near impossible to get real reads on their behavior. It doesn't make sense for mafia or town. It's like they're messing with us. I provoked them to get reactions and strengthen my suspicions but they ignored me, so they are my biggest scum read after ZM. ZM's attitude makes the most sense from a scum position and I'd rather vote on behavior I understand than behavior I don't.

My post to Dudeaga was the same way. We needed some reason to believe Dudeaga and they really needed to post for that. Seeing them read the thread and not post would have made them lean seriously scum, so a threat seemed in order. Prior to you, and even now, with so many inactive posters, it seems like policy voting is one of the only real ways to draw people out of hiding.

I don't directly disagree with anything you've said, but you have managed to draw the attention to everyone but yourself and that bothers me.

I'd like to hear why your mentee was so sheepy under your counseling and whether or not you agreed with their vote.

[Eurykins]

Glad to have you back. Or to have you at all instead of your mentee (not sure of the word); thank you.

The 'bad logic' regarding posting as much as possible was that if I were going to be lynched that early (as I expected to be), I might as well get as many reactions as I can before that happens. I'm still surprised I'm alive, but my attitude has changed as I've realized just how difficult it can be to lynch someone in a hammer game.

I didn't vote Junko and still haven't because it is near impossible to get real reads on their behavior. It doesn't make sense for mafia or town. It's like they're messing with us. I provoked them to get reactions and strengthen my suspicions but they ignored me, so they are my biggest scum read after ZM. ZM's attitude makes the most sense from a scum position and I'd rather vote on behavior I understand than behavior I don't.

My post to Dudeaga was the same way. We needed some reason to believe Dudeaga and they really needed to post for that. Seeing them read the thread and not post would have made them lean seriously scum, so a threat seemed in order. Prior to you, and even now, with so many inactive posters, it seems like policy voting is one of the only real ways to draw people out of hiding.

I don't directly disagree with anything you've said, but you have managed to draw the attention to everyone but yourself and that bothers me.

I'd like to hear why your mentee was so sheepy under your counseling and whether or not you agreed with their vote.

No problem. :)

Well, for one, I've seen the latter part (attitude changing) happen throughout your posts, so that's good. Secondly, I just found the logic weird because, rather than "I'll just post a lot even if I come off scummy" (doesn't necessarily guarantee quality or pro-townie action in terms of having sheer # of posts), I myself would've been more inclined to use the logic, "I'll do what I can to still scum-hunt where I'm able to, so that (in the event that people find me scummy for any sort of reason and choose to pursue a bad case on me and I flip as a result of getting shot or mislynched) my cases/concerns can then be seen in a new light."

Wrt Junko: For what reason do you think he has for "messing with us"? Do you feel as town would feel the need to do so and basically not be honest with the rest of us in terms of reactions/responses? Do you find yourself trusting Junko as a result/whole or not? (It's clear that he's had some pretty chaotic gameplay, which is why he stands where he does for me, but what you do feel is his intent behind why he's playing as he is?)

Problem with Dudeaga (that has occurred in other games in variations): Townies can play in a scummy manner. I've seen it done a lot, where their gameplay just confuses the living daylights out of the rest of town, makes us assume they're scum, and it wrecks havoc in terms of mislynches. However, I was still a bit dismayed in terms of how much certain people (Especially GC) sought to almost completely nullify the claim as a whole (even as it was the MENTOR herself who originally stepped in with said claim as well), as opposed to giving him a chance to prove himself as the Town Doctor. But all in all, I can see/understand why the D1 mislynch happened the way it did.

Uh....I don't usually post about myself? (My focus is to give reads/thoughts wrt the other players in the game, so I'm not sure what you were asking about/commenting wrt the italicized line).

Last line:

Why hello thar guys. I'm rather disappointed that the one I mentored for has been pretty dead in-thread/game (and hasn't spoken to me once wrt to it), so I'm here to pick up the slack. If you guys have enough time to sit idle and not contribute, then you obviously have enough time to read the incoming post. [i'm not known as the "The Queen of Wallposts" for nothing, and there's a lot for me to cover. So without further ado, time to get down to business.]

To put it simply: The one I was mentoring (YX) never spoke to me once AT ALL throughout this entire game, so I have no idea what his thoughts were behind any of his posts/intentions. (I've PMed him on the forums at least 3 times to prompt him to communicate with me in some way, but never got a response back, which kinda felt bad to me.) However, give me a second to run through the pages/thread (since apparently the ISO link doesn't come up with anything atm).

##Vote: General Ciraxis

I anticipate some shady shenanigans.

((I... think this was the only post/vote that he's made all game? If I'm mistaken, I'd appreciate a link/quote to any others he may have made- this is just the one I seem to remember off the top of my head.))

As far as sheeping goes, this is pretty bad. Also doesn't put any original thoughts down on anyone else, so all in all, this is an easy as fuck and pretty much empty vote, imo. As his mentor, this would've earned him a swift smack on the wrist and a flick to the forehead for sheer lack of effort into the gameplay. I am highly disappoint (poor post + inactivity). ;/

[Makaze]

No problem. :)

Well, for one, I've seen the latter part (attitude changing) happen throughout your posts, so that's good. Secondly, I just found the logic weird because, rather than "I'll just post a lot even if I come off scummy" (doesn't necessarily guarantee quality or pro-townie action in terms of having sheer # of posts), I myself would've been more inclined to use the logic, "I'll do what I can to still scum-hunt where I'm able to, so that (in the event that people find me scummy for any sort of reason and choose to pursue a bad case on me and I flip as a result of getting shot or mislynched) my cases/concerns can then be seen in a new light."

Wrt Junko: For what reason do you think he has for "messing with us"? Do you feel as town would feel the need to do so and basically not be honest with the rest of us in terms of reactions/responses? Do you find yourself trusting Junko as a result/whole or not? (It's clear that he's had some pretty chaotic gameplay, which is why he stands where he does for me, but what you do feel is his intent behind why he's playing as he is?)

Problem with Dudeaga (that has occurred in other games in variations): Townies can play in a scummy manner. I've seen it done a lot, where their gameplay just confuses the living daylights out of the rest of town, makes us assume they're scum, and it wrecks havoc in terms of mislynches. However, I was still a bit dismayed in terms of how much certain people (Especially GC) sought to almost completely nullify the claim as a whole (even as it was the MENTOR herself who originally stepped in with said claim as well), as opposed to giving him a chance to prove himself as the Town Doctor. But all in all, I can see/understand why the D1 mislynch happened the way it did.

Uh....I don't usually post about myself? (My focus is to give reads/thoughts wrt the other players in the game, so I'm not sure what you were asking about/commenting wrt the italicized line).

Last line:

To put it simply: The one I was mentoring (YX) never spoke to me once AT ALL throughout this entire game, so I have no idea what his thoughts were behind any of his posts/intentions. (I've PMed him on the forums at least 3 times to prompt him to communicate with me in some way, but never got a response back, which kinda felt bad to me.) However, give me a second to run through the pages/thread (since apparently the ISO link doesn't come up with anything atm).

((I... think this was the only post/vote that he's made all game? If I'm mistaken, I'd appreciate a link/quote to any others he may have made- this is just the one I seem to remember off the top of my head.))

As far as sheeping goes, this is pretty bad. Also doesn't put any original thoughts down on anyone else, so all in all, this is an easy as fuck and pretty much empty vote, imo. As his mentor, this would've earned him a swift smack on the wrist and a flick to the forehead for sheer lack of effort into the gameplay. I am highly disappoint (poor post + inactivity). ;/

That would have a better way to say it, and I'll do that in the future instead of giving up.

I think Junko is so bad that they are a liability to both mafia and town, so I can't say that they are working for anyone but themselves. I'd think its possible they are a third party role, but I don't think those types of roles were included in the setup. They have jumped around too much and appear to have no particular goals in mind.

I believe you had a responsibility to smack them whether they spoke to you or not, so I'm wondering why you didn't smack them when you read the thread yourself. I know you read the thread multiple times and had actual incentive to watch your mentee's posts more than others. I don't buy that you had to look that up, and given that you looked at ISOs, I know you know you are correct.

Why are you posturing?

[Terrador]

MENTOR POST INCOMING

I do not agree with the extension; if town can't get their shit together in 72 hours and decide a lynch, they deserve to lose. If people were active, I might acquiesce, but the time will definitely be wasted.

This is what I suggest. Our slot is obviously not being lynched because we're an unCC'd Mason. The three non-voters and Poly should vote for one of the other three wagons (people with votes). Then everyone on the smallest wagon vote for one of the other two (In a 4-3-3 situation, the 3-man wagon with the most recent vote will be considered the smallest). If we're tied at 5-5, someone who is unsure changes, or use our vote as a tiebreaker, or whatever.

To be honest, my preference would be ##Request to make this a majority lynch game because hammer games are unnecessarily strict.

Blyvern was on just before, I don't know why he's not posting. I'll put down everything I have on Terrador (Eury/Vhaltz, note what I'm doing!)

Scum!Terrador has motive to do what he did on D1. Especially if Ciraxis is also town, getting a hammer makes 100% chance of a ML rather than 75% if no majority was reached. In any case, it was also in their best interest to push for Dudeaga's lynch; it meant they could kill whoever they liked without worrying about the chance that he would protect them, and having to NK him instead means they lose out on a mislynch. Note his fervour in trying to get the lynch through D1, compared to today, with his target only needing 3 votes to be lynched, he seems to not want to lynch him at all. Such a change in demeanour strikes me as odd.

It's a minor point, but I feel like he's trying to smear Blyvern to reduce his credibility. Attack the argument please, not the person. IMO only scum who know a case is legit feel the need to do the latter

His activity is not necessarily a towntell. In two previous games, Persona and Drafters, Terrador was among the most active posters, and turned out to be scum in both of them. So, it may well be part of his meta (pattern of behaviour) as scum; he likes to be active and try to influence the lynch rather than be inactive and hope he doesn't get picked.

GP said in the mason chat before she died that Terrador's lack of reaction towards Vashiane's vote containing a post and nothing else was strange. He says "be sure to ask if you don't understand" which struck her as artificial and possibly a way to make it look as though they weren't discussing it in the scumchat. (I don't understand it fully, just paraphrasing)

But this is only really relevant if one flips scum.

I was asking for an extension because people actually subbing in for the slots that aren't even trying would allow D2 to actually, y'know, move. That said, I do agree with moving towards majority lynch.

And... I don't even want my target lynched? What are you smoking? I was only so ardent towards the end of D1 because we had absolutely minimal time and it was about to randlynch. As Eury pointed out, directed lynch > random lynch. And now that the end of the Day is coming up, guess what? I'm going to start pushing harder for this lynch, because we have to start consolidating.

My activity isn't necessarily a towntell, but my case on Dudeaga was based on shredding his posts to pieces outweighing a shady claim that couldn't necessarily be CC'd. ZM is in a similar boat. And in case you've forgotten, my most recent game was Shining Force 3, in which case I was Town, I was active, and I was mislynched to boot. Further, in Persona 3, as most anyone I've spoken to about that game postgame can testify, I was actively trying to ally with town. I made a huge point of this postgame, when I had no reason to lie, so if you're gonna cite that as a scumgame for me, take it with a grain of salt.

As far as Blyvern goes--it should be transparently obvious that I was trying to encourage a town CC if he was lying. He's been slightly scummy all game, and his case on me was artificial, weak, and has been (so far as I can tell) summarily tossed aside. Nice try, but no. My scumread on him has nothing to do with the fact that he voted me for incredibly shitty reasons, as opposed to voting someone else for incredibly shitty reasons.

Finally, the bit about Vashiane: I said that because I suspected she was confused. I know she's never played mafia before, and has a tendency to panic over relatively minimal things. YX, I have no meta on, and therefore I treated much more harshly.

Nice try, Baldrick, but no. None of your points on me hold water, and the fact that you're playing for your mentee is more than a little bit suspect. There is absolutely zero urgency in posting a case on me, because I think we all know I'm not getting lynched today. Eclipse was pushing it with a very urgent, very small post. This is... troubling, and I'm more than a little disappointed that it wasn't scrubbed before I had to waste my time addressing it.

----

Eurykins: Reading over your wall, I like it for the most part. Takes stands, well-defended cases, whole nine yards. Seems strongly Town, although there are a few things I'd like to ask you about.

-I gutread Ciraxis as pretty strongly town (certainly not on a lynch priority anytime soon), so I guess we just don't see eye-to-eye there. Nothing bad about the case, I just got the gist that he was contributing to Town well.

-Where is Poly crumbing that he didn't have to worry about GC? I never saw it; a link would be just dandy.

-Blyvern being "Scummy until proven clean."... that ship's sailed already, don't you think? As opposed to the whole Dudeaga fiasco, we know there's a Town Mason in the game, and it's been... what, a day and a half since the claim? I think we can reasonably say that Blyvern's town at this point.

----

Makaze, minor point: she can't speak for why YX was sheepy under her tutelage because, and I quote, "the one I mentored for has been pretty dead in-thread/game (and hasn't spoken to me once wrt to it)". Yeah.

----

In other news, I call on Polydeuces, ZM, Blyvern, and Vashiane to move over to one of the realistic lynches--which is to say, ZM or Junko. That said, I doubt we can trust them to be online, so Pascal, G. Ciraxis: would you prefer a directed lynch on ZM to no lynch at all, if you can't get enough support for lynching Junko in time?

[Terrador]

My apologies for the double-post, a few things need adding.

-Cut by Eury on the explanation; didn't think she was about. Whoops.

-Makaze v. Eury seems like a boring townfight to me, and I'm not really following it at the moment (just chewed through a wall and haven't had breakfast yet), but I'll take a look at it later.

-Vhaltz: You're online, and so is Vashiane. Talk to her, give her some advice, and tell her to post. I swear on me mum, what I'd give to be allowed to activity prod...

[Makaze]

That defense ('didn't talk') doesn't hold up due to his zealousness in reading everyone else, Terra. I have trouble believing that someone this diligent would just let it go when they saw their mentee make a bad move. It is too easy an out, and when combined with posturing, it gives me a bad feeling about intent.

[Eurykins]

That would have a better way to say it, and I'll do that in the future instead of giving up.

I think Junko is so bad that they are a liability to both mafia and town, so I can't say that they are working for anyone but themselves. I'd think its possible they are a third party role, but I don't think those types of roles were included in the setup. They have jumped around too much and appear to have no particular goals in mind.

I believe you had a responsibility to smack them whether they spoke to you or not, so I'm wondering why you didn't smack them when you read the thread yourself. I know you read the thread multiple times and had actual incentive to watch your mentee's posts more than others. I don't buy that you had to look that up, and given that you looked at ISOs, I know you know you are correct.

Why are you posturing?

Bolded: I can sorta see that logic, and in a closed set-up or if this semi-open set-up had included ITPs, I would agree that Junko's playing style more fits that than anything else. So now it's just a matter of if what's been said/done has had more scum-intent or town-intent behind them.

1. I'm currently recovering from an advanced case of Ear canal infection (temporarily deaf in my left ear), and had been in the Urgent care on Saturday (had been having pains the past week or two prior). So I've had my hands full for a bit outside of this game (and had been in the other game running for a short bit as well).

2. I'd glanced over the thread a few times before I was subbed in, yes, because I wanted to see/get a feel of the flow of the thread/gameplay. (I also posted wrt the deadline late D1 when I saw people running around like headless chickens and seemed to be running towards "Random Lynch" moreso than acquiring the hammer lynch.) But I did not look into the strict details of each case until last night/this morning when I was making my post.

3. Not getting a response from my mentee (my last prod to him to communicate held a comment in it that basically disapproved of his lack of content/activity levels as well, so in that sense, I did smack him) as a whole basically just told me that he didn't really care about the game, and that he showed little to no interest in doing anything about it, despite me trying to leave means of communication open to him. That in itself felt almost insulting to me- that I tried to push/prod again and again and he didn't even care enough to say anything (if he'd said he'd prefer limited to almost no mentor interaction, I would've been okay with that, because then I at least KNOW what he wants/prefers. But he didn't even say anything like that, so I knew little to nothing about where he stood in terms of what aid/advice/etc. he did and didn't want, or what he felt of the game as a whole.)

Italicized: Well, I clicked on his ISO link in the OP, and it came up with absolutely no posts (which is basically what I was using to gather my reads/thoughts while making the wall post earlier), including the one I just quoted (I literally had to search the first few pages until I manually found it). That is why I lacked 100% confidence in stating that it's the only post he's made, because I wasn't sure if he'd dropped another at some point or not (and I missed it or something).

And I'm assuming by "posturing" you were saying about my comment wrt YX's singular post? I guess it just feels worse the longer I stare at his basically useless post from D1, and having seen the multiple prods from other players in the thread to be more active (and not responding to any of them at all) just feels bad/disappointing to me. Not sure if I was just a bad mentor or if he just didn't put any sort of effort/care into this Mafia game.

[Terrador]

That defense ('didn't talk') doesn't hold up due to his zealousness in reading everyone else, Terra. I have trouble believing that someone this diligent would just let it go when they saw their mentee make a bad move. It is too easy an out, and when combined with posturing, it gives me a bad feeling about intent.

Makaze, riddle me this: how would her reaction change if she was scum, as opposed to town? In both cases, isn't it in her best interest to post on behalf of her mentee, at least a couple of times, to avoid an unhappy lynch and contribute to her wincon? This isn't a tell in either direction. It's pretty obvious that she just didn't want to play on behalf of her mentee, unlike... certain people. That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

E: And cut again, dammit. Still, this was directed at me, so I might as well drop it off.

[Makaze]

The posturing I meant was the pretending not to be aware of your own mentee's actions.

His ISO doesn't work in the OP because someone added a space in his username.

Install my ISO generator script to avoid these problems.

A question, then. If you were scum, how would you have posted differently than you have so far?

[Eurykins]

Eurykins: Reading over your wall, I like it for the most part. Takes stands, well-defended cases, whole nine yards. Seems strongly Town, although there are a few things I'd like to ask you about.

-I gutread Ciraxis as pretty strongly town (certainly not on a lynch priority anytime soon), so I guess we just don't see eye-to-eye there. Nothing bad about the case, I just got the gist that he was contributing to Town well.

-Where is Poly crumbing that he didn't have to worry about GC? I never saw it; a link would be just dandy.

-Blyvern being "Scummy until proven clean."... that ship's sailed already, don't you think? As opposed to the whole Dudeaga fiasco, we know there's a Town Mason in the game, and it's been... what, a day and a half since the claim? I think we can reasonably say that Blyvern's town at this point.

Wrt Poly:

Yeah, I'm less sold on a Ciraxis lynch based upon some stuff I saw in a quick re-read of him, as well other reasons I won't divulge.

Underlined feels like heavy implied that he knows/has some other information wrt GC that makes him not want to lynch him.

Blyvern claiming to be GP's Mason seems legit. However, just as he stated (and even the case with Dudeaga) there's no way to prove it, especially now that his partner's dead. Secondly, being supposed confirmed townie also doesn't excuse what I see/feel to be extremely scummy gameplay. As far as I'm concerned, based on his posting content, Blyvern is as scummy as can be, but the fact that he's practically cleared by the claim alone (unless he gets CC'd) is also the reason why I chose to vote ZM over him.

[Makaze]

Makaze, riddle me this: how would her reaction change if she was scum, as opposed to town? In both cases, isn't it in her best interest to post on behalf of her mentee, at least a couple of times, to avoid an unhappy lynch and contribute to her wincon? This isn't a tell in either direction. It's pretty obvious that she just didn't want to play on behalf of her mentee, unlike... certain people. That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

E: And cut again, dammit. Still, this was directed at me, so I might as well drop it off.

Bold is what I am wondering, myself.

You have a point about not posting for her mentee, but think about why I'm pressuring her instead of just correcting my points.

[Terrador]

Wrt Poly:

Underlined feels like heavy implied that he knows/has some other information wrt GC that makes him not want to lynch him.

Blyvern claiming to be GP's Mason seems legit. However, just as he stated (and even the case with Dudeaga) there's no way to prove it, especially now that his partner's dead. Secondly, being supposed confirmed townie also doesn't excuse what I see/feel to be extremely scummy gameplay. As far as I'm concerned, based on his posting content, Blyvern is as scummy as can be, but the fact that he's practically cleared by the claim alone (unless he gets CC'd) is also the reason why I chose to vote ZM over him.

Thanks for that. And as far as Blyvern goes--looks like we were on a similar page after all, then. Still, I suspect this will be a point of contention on the next Day, when there's a narrower field of potential scum.

Bold is what I am wondering, myself.

You have a point about not posting for her mentee, but think about why I'm pressuring her instead of just correcting my points.

...noted. I'll let you work on that, then.