Training Filler - Game Over

[Makaze]

No problem. Don't want scum and inactive town to control the flow of the game, is all.

[Junk]

##unvote ## vote dudeaga

I don't think we have enough time to wait and I doubt xeno is coming back anyway right now so my vote is basically useless.

Anyway starting with point 1. I think dude is feeling like scum trying to "contribute" to the game by posting scumreads without much reasoning at all. His two other scumreads are people for jumping onto an rvs wagon... Also you don't sound confident at all with your scumreads. mind specifying what terrible reaction gc was making?

Also your ciraxis read feels really off. You said ciraxis felt really sheepy with his zm vote but he was the first serious case on zm so how could you call it "sheepy"?

I say town will probably lynch gc and or dude today and I say dude. I feel as if dude has much more reason to be lynched due to playing far scummier then gc imo.

[blyegg]

While I was originally going to vote Dude, and am now voting Cira, I want to see their responses; I might change my vote by the end.

@Dude and Cira: If you were mafia, who would you most likely kill once night phase arrives?

[Person123]

We only have twenty four ~ hours before a random lynch.

@Ciraxis: I'd like to hear your reads. You've mostly been on the defensive up to now and I realized we only have defensive content for you as a result. Other have asked, but you didn't really answer.

Who looks scummy?

On post 72, I expressed concern that Dudeaga was attempting to sheep the bandwagon on me without any meaningful contributions. At the time I considered voting for him, but I wanted to hear his response first and see if his vote was meaningful. I could understand someone voting for me, but he certainly didn't appear genuine. His response confirmed that feeling for me. At this point in time, he's the only player I consider genuinely scummy.

One thing I feel is worth noting, Polydeuces's behavior has several parallels to Dudeaga. He first posted during RVS, and did not reply again until he was called out specifically. Unlike Dudeaga however, his posts at least appeared to be pro-town in nature. Besides myself, the only other people who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am town are the scumteam members. I know Poly is a more experienced player, and based on the context of this specific game, what I would consider to be optimum mafia playstyle would be to remain somewhat active during RVS, but afterwards try to keep a fairly low profile until one of the newer players (in this case, myself) slip up, and inadvertently says something anti-town. The Mafia members would then be able to capitalize on newbie mistakes in order to waste the town's lynches, while night killing the more experienced players.

Personally I feel Polydueces is coming off as pro-town, but that's what a good scum player would try to do. At the very least, it's something everyone should consider. It's possible I'm reading too much into it, but if I'm lynched tonight I won't have another chance to share my thoughts.

As for the other players, with the exception of the people who don't post as often as they should, the players I'm reading the most townlike are Terrador, Makaze, and Green Poet.

Unvote##

Vote## Dudeaga

At first I thought Ciraxis was scum because of his going back after a contradiction was pointed out seems odd to me; I would at least try and explain it/fix any misunderstandings before giving up.

My goal from the outset of the game was to do whatever I could to get out of RVS as quickly as possible. Since there's not much to go on at that point, I thought the fastest way to do that was to nitpick at whatever could potentially be considered scummy. Post 27 was probably my biggest mistake. Instead of contradicting myself, I should have asserted the minor possibility that the question Terrador asked Vashiane on post 10 could potentially be seen as a trick to get powers roles to claim.

[Makaze]

I have no problem with your post. I will pursue my vote for Dudeaga now that you have eased my worry.

##Unvote: ZeeEmm

##Vote: Dudeaga

[Person123]

While I was originally going to vote Dude, and am now voting Cira, I want to see their responses; I might change my vote by the end.

@Dude and Cira: If you were mafia, who would you most likely kill once night phase arrives?

Terrador. He's easily the most active player in this game.

[ZemZem]

##Vote: Dudeaga

The fact that you had Blyvern and I at the top of your list for scum reading when we only voted for you during the RVS period doesn't sit well with me.

[blyegg]

Ciraxis' latest post cleared my suspicions mostly, so I'm going to

##Unvote

##Vote Dudeaga

[Grace]

Dudeaga is at L-1!

[Grace]

Votals: By Request

Dudeaga (6): Terrador, Do Not Edit Posts Guy, General Ciraxis, Makaze, ZeeEmm, Blyvern

General Ciraxis (4): Pascal, YoungXehanort, Polydeuces, Dudeaga

Not Voting (2): Green Poet, Vashiane

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. You have 20 hours and 22 minutes left in the phase.

[eclipse]

MENTOR POST INCOMING.

Since someone put him at L-1, here's his claim: Doctor.

If I see a counterclaim, you'd best flip mafia, or I WILL chew you out in postgame.

You'd get the usual reads/vote rips from me, but I'm not here to play the game for him. Hopefully, he'll come back and say something in his defense.

[Junk]

## unvote

Certainly not wanting to lynch the doctor D1.

[Makaze]

Mentors can roleclaim for their students? I didn't know that.

##unvote ## vote dudeaga

I don't think we have enough time to wait and I doubt xeno is coming back anyway right now so my vote is basically useless.

Anyway starting with point 1. I think dude is feeling like scum trying to "contribute" to the game by posting scumreads without much reasoning at all. His two other scumreads are people for jumping onto an rvs wagon... Also you don't sound confident at all with your scumreads. mind specifying what terrible reaction gc was making?

Also your ciraxis read feels really off. You said ciraxis felt really sheepy with his zm vote but he was the first serious case on zm so how could you call it "sheepy"?

I say town will probably lynch gc and or dude today and I say dude. I feel as if dude has much more reason to be lynched due to playing far scummier then gc imo.

## unvote

Certainly not wanting to lynch the doctor D1.

Am I seriously the only one getting bad vibes from this?

[Prims]

MENTOR POST INCOMING.

lol

[Green Poet]

First, I apologize for my relative inactivity in this game. I've been busier than I thought I would be when I signed up for this game, and Almost OC has been terribly trying, as anyone who's been following it will know.

That said, I am here, now, so I'll try and make sense of the developments.

Dudeaga should out crumbs, if he placed any.

MENTOR POST INCOMING.

Since someone put him at L-1, here's his claim: Doctor.

If I see a counterclaim, you'd best flip mafia, or I WILL chew you out in postgame.

You'd get the usual reads/vote rips from me, but I'm not here to play the game for him. Hopefully, he'll come back and say something in his defense.

Leave it to clipsey to throw out the most potent claim.

I don't know exactly what my mentor (Prims) is about to post, but I'm going to start by saying that I do not believe the claim. Unless Dudeaga provides crumbs that would show that he is the doctor, there's a very slim chance that he is, going simply by setup odds. In a 12-player game, exactly one doctor is most likely to be present.

So, ignoring the popular thought that he is scum, since this can't be quantified, there's a one in twelve chance that Dudeaga rolled doctor.

I expect that clipsey wouldn't fakeclaim doctor in order to avoid a town!Dudeaga mislynch, as it's not worth the loss against town incurred by legit CC. Thus, Dudeaga is either scum, which for this setup I would hazard a guess at a 3-4 person scumteam, or he really is the doctor. Numbers-wise, Dudeaga is more likely to be scum than not.

As for what I personally think of Dudeaga. . .

I didn't like this post. I discussed how Ciraxis' vote was, by definition, not sheepy - there was no case on ZM to sheep. Dudeaga saying that it's scummy to "vote and unvote" is fine, but when the first vote is an RVS. . . no, that's not scummy at all. That's basic, constructive scumhunting because it moves your random vote to one you have a case on. He says that he would vote for people "reading into things too deeply" because it's a sign of scuminess, which I suppose can be true, but he doesn't explain how Ciraxis is being too nosy or overly interpretive.

To Dudeaga's merit, calling out Blyvern and ZM for sheeping was a good post. Their votes didn't seem terribly committal, though that's to be expected with a playerlist of relatively new players. I don't think the two of them are scum, but the point is, Dudeaga's suspicions are more agreeable there.

I'm not going to hammer Dudeaga, and anyone that does at this time should be considered scum by policy. But we definitely need to hear him explain himself, especially if he has crumbed doc anywhere in his previous posts.

[Green Poet]

Wait, Prims. Don't tell me that was actually your mentor post? :/

[MRDRHAWK]

ugh this game

Dudeaga should at least have time to prove his role if the claim's legit. I'd rather lynch Ciraxis since he really hasn't done much. And no, this isn't OMGUS because of his last post citing suspicion of me, though I'd like to know what exactly he's getting at exactly. Am I scum or town to you? Your post doesn't really lean either way, all you say is:

Personally I feel Polydueces is coming off as pro-town, but that's what a good scum player would try to do. At the very least, it's something everyone should consider. It's possible I'm reading too much into it, but if I'm lynched tonight I won't have another chance to share my thoughts.

And this is kinda waffly, which makes me feel bad about him.

Also, a note from something earlier: I explained why I was absent for a while after my RVS post, and have since been trying to contribute more often since the issue that occurred then has been resolved (namely, my body isn't trying to have me pass out at every turn). The timing just happened to work out that I came back when Terralec asked me that question of his. Whereas in Dudeaga's case, he just kinda vanished and came back later on his own accord (though if I'm missing something there let me know).

[WhiskeySickFive]

Hory shet, thanks for claiming for me. I was about to, because I can't really get on tomorrow. Sorry bout that.

Anyway, I'm dead because mafia kills me tonight. I think one of either Poly or Makaze is scum. Both are as close to softclaiming PR as possible, although I just may be applying EM standards to Forum mafia.

So long space cowboys.

PS: I think we're grasping at straws with all of this bandwagoning voting n' countervoting and whatnot. Although I did omgus (my bad), along with my own hypocritical logic, so, y'know, take my opinions with a grain of salt. Ciraxis did have a horribly scummy reaction, and I don't think we really have much of any sort of lead other than Ciraxis, so my vote stays.

PSS: Read Green Poet's post, and no, I didn't crumb. I imagine softclaiming on d1, especially with mafia so hyper-vigilant after the whole bw'ing mess isn't the most, uh, prudent thing to do. Townreading Green Poet, however slightly.

PSSS: Read Poly's post, and he does make a good point.

Alright, for real, I'm gonna get off now.

[Makaze]

What are OMGUS, (softclaiming) PR and waffling?

Wait, Prims. Don't tell me that was actually your mentor post? :/

I think that was the idea.

It makes sense that eclipse would be lying, especially with the force of her threat to people post-game. It sounds like she is trying to scare people away from thinking critically.

Even so, we don't want to take unnecessary risks if we don't have to.

In case Dude doesn't know what crumbing is (had this explained to me recently, myself): Crumbing is leaving hints or specific kinds of behavior here and there that point to your role, that you can pull on later.

Hory shet, thanks for claiming for me. I was about to, because I can't really get on tomorrow. Sorry bout that.

Anyway, I'm dead because mafia kills me tonight. I think one of either Poly or Makaze is scum. Both are as close to softclaiming PR as possible, although I just may be applying EM standards to Forum mafia.

Bold is actually a decent point, but it's also why Doctor is such a convenient claim for a mafia who wants to live another day. If you are lying, you will live another day, but if you are not, you are dead anyway. We can always kill you D2 and end up lynching a random today.

Can we take that risk?

I don't think we have enough info to lynch anyone else, so you need to do some actual convincing. The ultimatum by itself doesn't outright discount your previous actions.

I'm not sure what you mean by PR, but you are not doing yourself any favors. Your penchant for claiming reads without citing specifics is why you look so scummy in the first place.

[Makaze]

Wow. I'm too suggestible at this hour.

We just need to see if someone counterclaims.

[Green Poet]

Yay for unhealthy posting habits. I just wanted to point out that

If you are lying, you will live another day, but if you are not, you are dead anyway. We can always kill you D2 and end up lynching a random today.

Dudeaga not dying tonight if we don't lynch him today does not definitively incriminate him. Mafia can choose someone else to kill in the hopes of making Dudeaga seem scummy by virtue of not dying, thus causing us to waste our D2 lynch on him (and probably our D1 lynch as well, unless amazing cases spring up on someone else in the next 16 hours).

Granted, this is somewhat reliant on WIFOM in assuming that doc!Dudeaga isn't the most attractive target for scum tonight, but what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't default to the assumption that Dudeaga is scum if he's alive tomorrow.

Last thing to note - if we decide not to lynch Dudeaga, I will be willing to consolidate against Ciraxis despite my townread on him, solely because even a likely mislynch outweighs no lynch.

[Terrador]

ugh this game

Dudeaga should at least have time to prove his role if the claim's legit. I'd rather lynch Ciraxis since he really hasn't done much. And no, this isn't OMGUS because of his last post citing suspicion of me, though I'd like to know what exactly he's getting at exactly. Am I scum or town to you? Your post doesn't really lean either way, all you say is:

And this is kinda waffly, which makes me feel bad about him.

Also, a note from something earlier: I explained why I was absent for a while after my RVS post, and have since been trying to contribute more often since the issue that occurred then has been resolved (namely, my body isn't trying to have me pass out at every turn). The timing just happened to work out that I came back when Terralec asked me that question of his. Whereas in Dudeaga's case, he just kinda vanished and came back later on his own accord (though if I'm missing something there let me know).

Proving his role? How? The guy's allegedly a Doctor; what're we gonna do, tell our Tracker to out himself just to confirm he can visit people? He can't prove his role for bupkus, besides not getting killed, which scum could very easily do to create doubt and waste our precious time.

Claiming cop seems like a suicidal move, even if it's true. Eclipse posting it on Dudeaga's behalf doesn't give it any sort of magical merit; the mentors are under no injunction to not lie or otherwise cover for their students, no? It doesn't sway me; I stand by a Dudeaga lynch over Ciraxis, who's reading townier to me by the hour. Rest assured that I'll consolidate with whatever we collectively decide by deadline, as I'll be active at that hour.

[BBM]

MENTOR POST

Good to see you guys are starting consolidating a bit early; the last few SF games have had some difficulty in achieving the required majority for lynches on D1.

However, several people seem mostly to just be going with the flow and voting whom other people are voting for. This is the stage where having only one or two wagons is kind of necessary, but as far as tomorrow goes, I urge these people to think more for themselves. There's no harm in having votes spread out as long as you can consolidate later.

Also, don't confuse activity/effort and towniness. There are some people who post much less as scum than as town, but in most cases active players are going to be active either way, and quieter players are going to be quieter either way. That's just how it is.

Good luck.

[Makaze]

Yay for unhealthy posting habits. I just wanted to point out that

Dudeaga not dying tonight if we don't lynch him today does not definitively incriminate him. Mafia can choose someone else to kill in the hopes of making Dudeaga seem scummy by virtue of not dying, thus causing us to waste our D2 lynch on him (and probably our D1 lynch as well, unless amazing cases spring up on someone else in the next 16 hours).

Granted, this is somewhat reliant on WIFOM in assuming that doc!Dudeaga isn't the most attractive target for scum tonight, but what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't default to the assumption that Dudeaga is scum if he's alive tomorrow.

Last thing to note - if we decide not to lynch Dudeaga, I will be willing to consolidate against Ciraxis despite my townread on him, solely because even a likely mislynch outweighs no lynch.

That only emphasized the need for a counter claim if he is not the doctor.

We only have a few hours left and no one has counter claimed. Need to take a look at others and see who else is scummy.

Looking at Dudeaga's record, they jumped on a wagon before it became dangerous, and while their behavior was horribly noncommittal, they read like incompetent and/or inactive town. Having read over everyone's ISOs, he doesn't look that scummy based on his own posts.

My scum reads after looking at ISOs, excluding him, are mostly the same, but there is one person who stood out.

#1: ZeeEmm

ZeeEmm has been mostly inactive, but what they posted looks very scummy when looked at together.

They RVS wagon'd on Dudeaga with the reason 'why the fuck not'. As soon as we left RVS, they unvoted and offered no input. When asked what she read, she said she read no one and wasn't willing to just join a wagon for no reason. That's an odd contradiction and seems like a change in attitude, maybe due to a mentor.

She turned around again and wagon'd on Dudeaga with the weakest reason of anyone who voted him. That reads like sheepish scum play.

#2: Junko

You ignored my reads without explaining yourself and then voted Dudeaga with the second worst reasoning so far. Dudeaga's read on Ciraxis was no more off than anyone else's, but you still pressed the issue pretty hard. You also only had any kind of read on Dudeaga's behavior once it was questioned by other people. pulled an about face with minimal info when Dudeaga claimed Doctor. You didn't wait for someone to counterclaim and you didn't offer reasoning. You ran scared from a situation that might make you look bad. You are playing the weakest town I have ever seen. That is scummy as is.

About Ciraxis

Ciraxis reads town to me because he has had valid reasoning and thought patterns since their first vote. I understand why people jumped on him, but nothing he has done has been against the town and he has made some contributions that I can respect. I'll find him a little suspicious if Dudeaga happens to be the real Doctor just for voting for him, but so did I.

Poly, Pascal, and others, please step up to the plate and post.

@Everyone else: please post so that we know you have seen the thread and are not claiming Doctor (or are, if you are).

Why am I the only one posting?

What are OMGUS, (softclaiming) PR and waffling?

Can I get an answer on these?

[SB.]

Mentor Post

OMGUS: Oh My God You Suck - Basically it's voting for someone because they voted for you without any other reasoning behind it.

Softclaiming: Hinting at what your role is without outright claiming what it is.

PR: Power Role (a non-vanilla role) or Post Restriction. In the context of this game, it's probably a Power Role.

Waffling: Not making up your mind/being indecisive about something.

gl;lynch scum