Should the weapon weight return?

[Shadow Mir]

FE6 nosferatu is not really OP.

to clarify: out of context, it looks even better than FE13 nosferatu, which everyone agrees is OP. in the context of FE6, nosferatu is not terribly strong, otherwise we'd see dark magic users higher on the tier list.

I'm assuming that this is largely because none of the potential users are good.

[Irysa]

It's more like the game simply doesn't really have the same kind of "dump unit here and go afk on enemy phase" kind of scenarios where Nosferatu excels aside from ch 21. You'll get better results just moving up and killing things.

Weightless Nosferatu isn't even neccessarily OP anyway, see FE12.

[dondon151]

is that a function of the magic itself not being broken or the fact that none of the potential users are good?

i mean, there are other reasons that dark magic users don't rank highly on the list that aren't "because their tomes suck"

niime is pretty good. even then, she doesn't break the game with nosferatu because she's not mounted, murdering stuff on EP is a little overrated, and nosferatu can miss.

even if hypothetically milady were able to use nosferatu, she'd be pretty broken, but still probably not quite FE13 level broken because of the accuracy deal.

[Icon of Sin]

Weightless Nosferatu isn't even neccessarily OP anyway, see FE12.

Magic users aren't too good in that game, it can only be used by women and you can't buy Nosferatu spells. The former of the three downs FE6 a bit too, which is a shame because Ray would've looked nice with Hard mode bonuses. 17 Magic/12 Speed is rather sweet.

[dondon151]

raigh still would be nowhere near broken, or probably even good for that matter.

[Irysa]

Magic users aren't too good in that game, it can only be used by women and you can't buy Nosferatu spells. The former of the three downs FE6 a bit too, which is a shame because Ray would've looked nice with Hard mode bonuses. 17 Magic/12 Speed is rather sweet.

That's besides the point, I was just using it as a demonstration of the fact that nosferatu being weightless doesn't somehow default into OP territory. It's good in FE13 because of the type of maps, not because it doesn't have weight. Weapons are balanced by the way you use them, not just the stats on the weapon. See FE11 Win Spear.

[Icon of Sin]

Considering your particular playstyle, he'd need to sprout the body of a centaur or wings to keep up with the rest of your army, but for someone going slower, early teen AS is good enough to double the steel clad Bern bumblefucks the game throws at you like candy, 17 Magic puts enough pain to 2HKO/1RKO a good bunch of enemies and there's Nosferatu to help bulk.

He's not perfect but from the get-go i'd say that's promising with the C14 ring around the corner, and you have the option to early promote him if you still have the first ring for staves and a handful of stats, including less AS loss.

[Psych]

wait how does anyone justify the FE4 weapon weight system while dismissing the GBAFE one

this just doesn't make any sense. you can't excuse FE4's weapon weight system as being "executed poorly" because it's fundamentally designed to either be terribly imbalanced or not have any real effect at all.

for those of you who want the ability to increase con, there could exist a system where con increases after every x number of weapon uses of a weapon that's heavier than unit con. please no random growths, though, FE doesn't need any more of that.

turning con into a stat like weapon levels actually sounds pretty cool and sounds like a better idea of what FE5 went for

does that mean we can bring move going up with levels too though

[Snowy_One]

I don't think it should, but a lot of that is because, as I recall, it tended to be biased against female characters who often had lower STR/Con/Build/WE and against the units that might actually NEED the extra attack while units who didn't need it were often getting a pass on the weight anyways.

Maybe it should be something not based on weight/character weight? Maybe proficiency/talent/something that can vary immensely between characters that isn't inclined towards one specific type of character?

[Jotari]

I don't think it should, but a lot of that is because, as I recall, it tended to be biased against female characters who often had lower STR/Con/Build/WE and against the units that might actually NEED the extra attack while units who didn't need it were often getting a pass on the weight anyways.

Maybe it should be something not based on weight/character weight? Maybe proficiency/talent/something that can vary immensely between characters that isn't inclined towards one specific type of character?

Well weapon rank are meant to indicate how well a unit can handle that specific weapon. Someone suggest a weapon experience way of leveling Con but using weapon rank might be a way of doing it. Say rank A or S allows you to use weapons of any weight without penalty but B only let's you use weapons of weight 20 or something with a -1 speed per weight over it, scaling to each weapon type so you don't fully master swords after one level but have to get to the highest level o use any axes.

[dondon151]

turning con into a stat like weapon levels actually sounds pretty cool and sounds like a better idea of what FE5 went for

does that mean we can bring move going up with levels too though

i don't know, a movement stat level bar is a bit more difficult to execute, since movement is such an important stat.

an easy way to help resolve the problem of females being unfairly affected by weapon weight is to simply scale down all of the numbers a bit. instead of con going from 1 to 18, it could go from 1 to 12 instead. weapon weight would also be scaled down accordingly. the effect of this is that female units lose relatively less AS than male units, at least compared to before.

in any case, i don't actually see what the problem is with females being slightly more disadvantaged than males on average.

Edited August 14, 2014 by dondon151

[Psych]

Eh I mean female units typically have higher speed/luck/resistance, while males have higher strength and defense but it ends up being a wash when their speed boost is negated making male units just better.

[Shadow Mir]

niime is pretty good. even then, she doesn't break the game with nosferatu because she's not mounted, murdering stuff on EP is a little overrated, and nosferatu can miss.

even if hypothetically milady were able to use nosferatu, she'd be pretty broken, but still probably not quite FE13 level broken because of the accuracy deal.

Huh. Sounds acceptable to me.

i like weapon weight because it balances out stuff.

its one of the reasons why dark magic is overpowered in FE13 and not in the other games(you could make the argument for FE7's Luna though)

I don't think that's quite true when it's only really Nosferatu and Aversa's Night (and possibly Mire) that's worth using (Waste is a joke, to be blunt, and Ruin is outclassed by Katarina's Bolt).

[Quintessence]

The weight system should return imo. In itself is a nice idea and I enjoy it and, more importantly, got used to it on FE4/gbas/tellius and ds games. I really didn't like it being abscent in other games because it felt like you could choose any weapon in an arbitrary way and have no consequences rather than just benefit and taking off any strategic element the weight system might add.

I agree with Red Fox that the weight system should be better implemented because the idea is neat and coherent. dondon's idea on scaling weapon weight according to if the unit is male or female is nice too: just like in FE7 where Florina, in terms of AS, is better with a Slim Lance rather than a Heavy Spear that's better for heavily armored knights.

[Ownagepuffs]

I'd like for it to come back. Genealogy did it well. The problem with it in FE4 was that Swords and Wind were too light. The system was good but the weapons were poorly balanced. Lol at anyone using Axes or Lances. Brb swords had 3 Wt while the lightest lance had like 12 Wt and Brave Axe had like what, 18 Wt? The fuck? And WTF at 2 Wt wind tomes and like 1038349290 Wt fire Tomes.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I have started to play the GBA-triology and I was really "shocked", when I saw that a steel lance has a weight of 13 and Pegasus Knights like Vanessa and Tana only have a con of 5. 13 weight for a steel lance is expectable, but only 5 con? That means -8 speed. What the shit is that?! Some units aren't be able to double with several weapons.

Seriously I'm really surprised that lots of people voted for con.

Build sounds nice, if females and "weaker" classes (mages, myrmidons, Pegasus Knights) can get it too. Otherwise there will be same problem like with con.

I have reflected about it and to my mind the skill or a stat similar to the weapon level from FE1 could influence the AS. Skill would be fair for all classes, because most units have >= 50% growth.

I want to vote constitution like in Thracia where it has a growth rate.

Oh wait, is that what the Build one is meant to imply?

Reading through the topic (which I honestly should have done first) shows that it is. Still it's not very clear with the poll.

Yes, that's the defintion of build.

Some people have asked me for to add this to the poll.

Edited August 14, 2014 by TalesOf Hysteria

[Flying Shogi]

If the argument is that weapon weight allows for a more diverse strategy in which it is implemented under a system that allows the player characters to grow to the point where Con doesn't matter, why implement it in the first place?

Someone(or I can just be making this up, I don't remember) who posted earlier in this thread suggested to let weapon rank play a role in the whole weight discussion somewhere along the lines of higher WR = lower speed penalty from a weapon that exceeds their Con. While I like the idea, I just feel like if something is implemented just so that another feature of the game is to mitigate its effects then it seems like a waste of time, even if it does affect how we play the game.

If they were to implement a weight system, maybe they can do something like what they did with weapon ranks in which characters can rank up in Con similar to how weapon rank works with WR bonuses?

[arvilino]

I have started to play the GBA-triology and I was really "shocked", when I saw that a steel lance has a weight of 13 and Pegasus Knights like Vanessa and Tana only have a con of 5. 13 weight for a steel lance is expectable, but only 5 con? That means -8 speed. What the shit is that?! Some units aren't be able to double with several weapons.

Seriously I'm really surprised that lots of people voted for con.

Build sounds nice, if females and "weaker" classes (mages, myrmidons, Pegasus Knights) can get it too. Otherwise there will be same problem like with con.

I have reflected about it and to my mind the skill or a stat similar to the weapon level from FE1 could influence the AS. Skill would be fair for all classes, because most units have >= 50% growth.

Yes, that's the defintion of build.

Some people have asked me for to add this to the poll.

Honestly Build had the exact same problem as con. Practically every female character and weaker classes(Archer, Mage[although if I remember build has no impact on tomes weight],etc.) started with a lower build and had 2%, 5%, 10% and 15%(Just Amalda) build growth rate. They kind of balanced speed and build growth(in that Speed+Build would be around 60-70%) but female characters would reach 20 speed quickly and be forever weighed down below it while male characters would approach 20 while continually or immediately being able to wield heavier equipment without penalty(Plus a lot of the crusader scrolls increase speed growth).

Edited August 14, 2014 by arvilino

[Baldrick]

Give the faster but smaller characters a higher speed cap. Problem solved.

[XeKr]

Interestingly, if we accept FE6 Nosferatu is not broken because the users are not broken/high tiered, then we can apply the same for FE13. Robin is godtier with or without it, and tbh I rate Tharja/Henry in mid (in Lunatic, perhaps lower elsewhere), and more because of Anathema/Hex/Dark Knight Pair Up. There's like 2 chapters where it's relevant, and it doesn't necessarily even have to be Nosferatu you use there (and probably not Tharja/Henry).

Wrt the op, the primary reason I see why weapon weight systems rarely have substantial tactical impact (i.e. choosing between weapons) is either they’re too unbalanced so the strongest choices, character and weapon wise, are too obvious and essentially made for you, or too insignificant in which it’s a flavor stat (ymmv). Not so trivial to resolve.

Edited August 14, 2014 by XeKr

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i mostly consider no weapon weight in FE13 broken due to how the game is designed, unlimited grinding and buy able tomes with potentially infinite money.

if you couldn't grind in FE13 or had limited grinding, then i wouldn't considering it as broken.

and yeah most of the time dark magic isn't OP because its users are average at best.

[arvilino]

i mostly consider no weapon weight in FE13 broken due to how the game is designed, unlimited grinding and buy able tomes with potentially infinite money.

if you couldn't grind in FE13 or had limited grinding, then i wouldn't considering it as broken.

and yeah most of the time dark magic isn't OP because its users are average at best.

So do you think the Bronze Sword is broken because you can grind infinitely and defeat almost any enemy with a maxed out

character wielding it?

Additionally even if there was weapon weight in FE13 and it was constitution based if you grinded to the max you'd offset the penalty of the weapon weight and nothing would change.

Edited August 14, 2014 by arvilino

[Mighty Kamina]

Weight should stay gone forever. Can't remember how it worked in FE1-FE3. In FE4 it's hilariously broken. In FE5 it actually works, but that's because con can increase and capturing/stealing. In the GBA games it cripples units who aren't jacked males. In the GC/DS games it's ineffective because it becomes a non issue later on.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kamina

[dondon151]

In the GBA games it cripples units who aren't jacked males.

no it doesn't

[Mighty Kamina]

no it doesn't

Looking back, it was an exaggeration, but the GBA weight system is really bad in my opinion. It would be the worst if FE4 wasn't a thing.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kamina