School of Hard NOCs (take 2) - Game over!

[Elieson]

i would like to see an answer as to why eli didnt switch his vote from an RVS on BBM to what seems to be a slightly more fleshed out thought on navel.

also i thought SB was the one who did the whole, are you town thing. or was that prims?

BBM hasn't responded since I voted for him, and he's got quite a bit of pressure placed on his head (though honestly i haven't counted votes on him since mine). I'd like to see my BBM vote accomplish something before I decide what to do with my vote. Also I ##FoS'd navel for obvious reasons. You quoted it bruh

[Randa]

i know why you FoS'd i wanted to know why you did it instead of actually voting him, especially when BBM still has votes on him for literally nothing. your vote on BBM was an RVS vote i dont really see why he would be expected to respond to it.

[Elieson]

I voted for BBM because I wanted to accomplish something with my vote, and figured it'd be better than randomvoting? I intentionally voted for BBM, and if I had to justify it, I'd say that it's still better to vote and build a wagon than to vote for who-cares-i'm-just-voting because either the player getting voted may react, or the players who are voting may react. We already got mancer spazzing out, and probably wouldn't have seen that without my BBM vote. What's to say that nothing else will come?

Plus (and I thought of this when I voted but was too sleepy to remember), it'd be because I want to see what who unvotes first, and what their justification is.

[Elieson]

Though now I feel like my vote on BBM is useless becuase I've literally had to announce everything I'm thinking and planning to do, before he even showed up to respond.

##Unvote

##Vote Naval

Let's proceed with this. Plz justify your active refusal to contribute.

[SB.]

Meh. The attempted reaction test is dumb but it doesn't feel like scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: Randa

What stops you from putting your vote down and just changing it again later after you get a response if you think Eli's suspicious. As long as we keep Mancer away from L-1 wagons nobody is gonna quickhammer him if we're wrong lol.

[Randa]

simple i dont think eli is scum. like i said earlier i feel this is pretty how he got to be the d1 mislynch in the last 2/3? games. i wanted to understand what he was thinking and i would be inclined to think that his changing of vote was appeasement if not for the tone.

[Refa]

It's posting time.

But I did analyze his claim, just not out loud (and I think it's town!). Was just pressing something I could press (despite not really suspecting the guy) to get things rolling. For the record: It was odd that he said he's breaking down the most interesting posts without breaking down the interesting posts. Why not address the second page? Just deceases the chances that the post will actually be helpful.

Now that you've drawn this out from me I'll do something else.

Fair enough; why do you think his claim is townie (for the record, I agree with the conclusion, but I want to hear your reasoning here)? Also why would you press someone you were townreading over someone else? That...just doesn't make sense to me. I agree that Randa could have addressed the second page, but honestly I'm kind of glad that he didn't; that post was already too long as it is.

This is a silly question to me because it has a lot of open answers to it. "Why would scum do this....?" Why does scum do anything? To survive is a blunt response. Why would scum do something dumb? To promote the image that they are too inept to be scum. Plus you could honestly flip the question around to "Why does town do X?" and my response would be the same. Overall, no one can answer a "why would scum do this...?". Plus to retort as well, I never said Randa was scum, I said he was odd.

Since you pointed this my way, here is my answer but overall I don't like the question. *shrug*

I completely disagree. If you're voting someone, then you have to have SOME idea of why they'd act that way as scum. It's just...why do you have to drag this into a semantics argument. Mafia is a subjective game by nature (disregarding roles, anyways), of course arguments can be construed in multiple ways. Also not sure how to interpret "he was odd" other than "he was scummy on some level".

Elieson's response to why he's just asking people if they're town (which struck me as pointless at first) is fine for now. Not worth looking into until we see what he gets out of the reactions he claims to be testing for, at any rate. His explanation for why he voted BBM was pretty good, would not vote (UNTIL DEADLINE PANIC ANOTHER ELIE TURBO COMING).

I hate to repeat myself, but SB do you think Randa can be scum with his claim? It just annoys me that noone who votes him addresses this (which is really my main reason for townreading him) and if I'm being dumb about this rolespec, I'd at least like to know why that is.

[Refa]

Er, his explanation for why he held onto his BBM vote for so long. English is hard.

[SB.]

The way you phrased it looked less like you thought he was town and more like you weren't sure on the vote, but I guess I can see that.

Scum have claimed numbers and Randa has a history with poorly thought out gambits (there might just be 4 scum and he assumed an ITP or something) or it might just be a mod given fakeclaim. I don't think it's impossible for Randa to be scum (although I mostly pressed him because I have nothing stronger atm.)

##Unvote

##Vote: HBC J

Who is scum?

[SB.]

Uh, first part was @ Randa. Looks kind of unclear now.

[Randa]

The way you phrased it looked less like you thought he was town and more like you weren't sure on the vote, but I guess I can see that.

Scum have claimed numbers and Randa has a history with poorly thought out gambits (there might just be 4 scum and he assumed an ITP or something) or it might just be a mod given fakeclaim. I don't think it's impossible for Randa to be scum (although I mostly pressed him because I have nothing stronger atm.)

##Unvote

##Vote: HBC J

Who is scum?

So rood.

[Refa]

Scum have claimed numbers and Randa has a history with poorly thought out gambits (there might just be 4 scum and he assumed an ITP or something) or it might just be a mod given fakeclaim. I don't think it's impossible for Randa to be scum (although I mostly pressed him because I have nothing stronger atm.)

Does eclipse give scum fakeclaims? Regardless of that, I can see what you mean about his claim possibly being another ~Randa gambit~. Anyways, I'm kind of disappointed that you gave a reasonable answer. Now I have to thoroughly read Randa's spam posts and attempt (in vain) to derive town/scum intent from them (please be easier to read, Randa). Thanks, SB.

[SB.]

In Hard NOCs 1 we got doc and lynchproof (lol) as claims, and advice not to claim 3/4 of our real roles (but she didn't tell us not to claim tailor! Clearly we did something wrong.)

[Randa]

Does eclipse give scum fakeclaims? Regardless of that, I can see what you mean about his claim possibly being another ~Randa gambit~. Anyways, I'm kind of disappointed that you gave a reasonable answer. Now I have to thoroughly read Randa's spam posts and attempt (in vain) to derive town/scum intent from them (please be easier to read, Randa). Thanks, SB.

Prims is the only one, that I know of, who gets my alignment spot in every time. It's really kind of annoying.

Anyways quick thoughts on relevant people, no problems with Refa I do disagree with the thought that Eli's justification for continuing to vote BBM was good, but I'm probably alone on that.

Also SB why vote J instead of navel or gorf? Similar activity levels, ie not a lot, and some amount of content produced.

[SB.]

J was viewing the thread for a while (and while I was posting my vote) without posting anything for a while and when he dropped in earlier he didn't have much to say. It looks like he disappeared now though so ;_;

[Randa]

Okay good enough for me.

Mancer any thoughts on the recent developments?

[Refa]

Anyways quick thoughts on relevant people, no problems with Refa I do disagree with the thought that Eli's justification for continuing to vote BBM was good, but I'm probably alone on that.

To explain where I'm coming from here (since I don't think I did a satisfactory job in my last post), it's less the actual reasoning (which is fine, but not really anything that would make me reluctant to vote him) and more the tone; I'd expect Scum!Elieson to be more detached from his vote (perhaps even writing it off as a joke).

[BT.]

Re: Randa's claim is Town

Mafia-related reasons: Statistically more likely that the claimed numbers guy is the numbers guy & risk to fakeclaim if scumteam doesn't know the exact numbers (and there's no way it's 10 vs 5). SB saying there could be fakeclaims and mafia number guys makes this part kinda moot.

Player-related reasons: Coming in here talking about the cult makes me believe the guy thought about it and reached his conclusions (townie) instead of just fear-mongering about a cult (which I guess is possible but eh, I don't think so?).

Note: "Town" means "inclined to believe is coming from town, should contribute to any read on the slot", not "100% confirmed town". But yeah.

I like votes on J because he voted Randa with me but unlike me he hasn't done anything else despite posting again.

[BT.]

Actually I'd like J to tell me what he thinks about Poly's post because I thought that was more scum-awkward-plausible than Randa's break-down and his reason for voting Randa was having an awkward post. J kinda ignored Poly and I clearly unvoted Randa to highlight Poly's post?

[Refa]

Mafia related reasons are good (personally, I thought he was town because I've literally never seen a scum Numbers claim in my life), not as convinced about the player related reasons (in the last Hard NOC's game, Randa was Cult Leader so I could see him going into the game with that in mind). Fair enough regarding your reasons for voting him; I was confused with why you were voting a townread but I can understand wanting to get a better read on him. Anyways, sheeping the J votes (dude doesn't really have much in the way of reads despite being on long enough to post a somewhat detailed response to my question). I'll speak the only way I know how, with my vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: #HBC J

[MancerNecro]

@Prims: I'm cautious because I think that there are definitely scum on the wagon and leaving the wagon at L-2 makes it too easy for scum to quick hammer BBM. Also, given how many players are voting BBM randomly, we could also accidentally hammer BBM without knowing it.

@Refa and SB: Hey, town had pretty much agreed on those hammers in Guitar Mafia!

I don't like Randa's "post breakdown" since it's pretty much unhelpful and useless to town since it does not contain any contents. It reminds me of his Guitar Mafia playstyle where he is pretty obviously unhelpful. His later posts against Elieson seem slightly better at a first glance but I notice that Randa doesn't really commit to his Elieson suspicion at any one point when he was prodding Elieson.

Also, I don't like how Randa immediately assumes that the scum team size is three. Scum slip, maybe? I feel like if Randa was really informed town, he would be open to the idea of a 10/5 or 10/4/1 setup as well so I feel confident that we have found scum here.

##Unvote: Refa, ##YouAreScum: Randa

Rapier's Randa vote in the middle of nowhere screams scummy to me especially since other players (BT) have already had reasons for voting Randa. Rapier's vote feels like a "wait-and-see" vote park on Randa disguised as an RVS vote.

##FingerOfSuspicion: Rapier

I don't like Navelpluis's post since a lot of things have already happened at the time that he made his post. You could have done a lot more at that point in time instead of openly declaring to not want to contribute until the thread moves on.

Something that catches my eye is Elieson's supposed reaction test and the fact that he had to be prodded by SB to vote for Navelpluis. I don't see the point of the reaction test and explaining that your questions were reaction tests in thread serves absolutely no purpose to your reaction test at all.

Going to continue on with my non-spammy posting style since I heard that it's good for me whee!

[Randa]

Rapier did you actually read the thread or just skim and throw out a post? I'll explain my problems with it when I get out of tutoring bbut just want to point this out first. I did admit to the possibility of a 10/4/1 or a 10/5 setup I just said I don't think either is likely for balance reasons.

[MancerNecro]

Rapier did you actually read the thread or just skim and throw out a post? I'll explain my problems with it when I get out of tutoring bbut just want to point this out first. I did admit to the possibility of a 10/4/1 or a 10/5 setup I just said I don't think either is likely for balance reasons.

But your first post:

since im not scum refa must be.

##Vote: Roofa

also i have reasons to believe there is a cult in this game, and more importantly eclipse ignored the best song flavour wise for a cult leader and i am very disappointed in her for that.

immediately assumed that a cult exists (10/3/2 setup that you proposed). I think that you are scum numbers with a scum team consisting of three players. Hence, your assumptions of the setup and existence of cult.

[Randa]

yes and in my second post of the game i state why i say a cult exists.

clipsey understands balancing, and a 5 man scum team, or a 4 man team with an sk are worse balanced than a 3 man team with a 2 man starting cult. and yes i can confirm town has 10 people.

im sorry which is the more logical explanation, im scum numbers(which is not common or even a thing to my knowledge cause numbers is actually pretty rare to begin with so i havent seen numbers before now, so i really question if scum numbers even exists) or i do what i usually do a think about setup spec only i have a valid reason for doing so this time, and more to base my speculation off of now.

and again think this through im not dumb(a little bit insane but not dumb), i wouldnt have even included an sk or a cult if i was scum, i also wouldnt have given town such a seemingly unbalanced, i really dont know if its balanced or not cause town might be super op. i wouldve given town a setup which was more likely to put scum in an advantageous position when mylo or lylo roles around and cause a sense of confusion when people discover there are more non town members left then they thought. thats actually a really good idea for the next time i want to mindfuck peeple.

@Prims: I'm cautious because I think that there are definitely scum on the wagon and leaving the wagon at L-2 makes it too easy for scum to quick hammer BBM. Also, given how many players are voting BBM randomly, we could also accidentally hammer BBM without knowing it.

@Refa and SB: Hey, town had pretty much agreed on those hammers in Guitar Mafia!

I don't like Randa's "post breakdown" since it's pretty much unhelpful and useless to town since it does not contain any contents. It reminds me of his Guitar Mafia playstyle where he is pretty obviously unhelpful. His later posts against Elieson seem slightly better at a first glance but I notice that Randa doesn't really commit to his Elieson suspicion at any one point when he was prodding Elieson.

Also, I don't like how Randa immediately assumes that the scum team size is three. Scum slip, maybe? I feel like if Randa was really informed town, he would be open to the idea of a 10/5 or 10/4/1 setup as well so I feel confident that we have found scum here.

##Unvote: Refa, ##YouAreScum: Randa

Rapier's Randa vote in the middle of nowhere screams scummy to me especially since other players (BT) have already had reasons for voting Randa. Rapier's vote feels like a "wait-and-see" vote park on Randa disguised as an RVS vote.

##FingerOfSuspicion: Rapier

I don't like Navelpluis's post since a lot of things have already happened at the time that he made his post. You could have done a lot more at that point in time instead of openly declaring to not want to contribute until the thread moves on.

Something that catches my eye is Elieson's supposed reaction test and the fact that he had to be prodded by SB to vote for Navelpluis. I don't see the point of the reaction test and explaining that your questions were reaction tests in thread serves absolutely no purpose to your reaction test at all.

Going to continue on with my non-spammy posting style since I heard that it's good for me whee!

first and foremost regarding this post you never answered my question whether you actually read the thread or skimmed. i am almost certain you just glanced over the thread and looked at the easiest cases and decided to push those. the reason is you have inaccurate statements all over the place.

1. My playstyle about as opposite of guitar mafia as you can get. I'm providing comentary on each development as i see them happen in thread and talk about whether or not i think they are scummy, look at what i did with eli and quick commentary on SB and Refa, though i still have nothing useful about SB, but we are less than 24 hours into the game. in guitar mafia i was intentionally, and at times unintentionally hindering town trying to stagnate discussion.

2. I did mention a 10/5 and a 10/4/1 setup, it is not towny to consider highly improbable setups as the likely ones for this game. even an arsonist in a 10/4/1 setup can be very game changing as we could face day 3 lylo, if my calculations are correct, with a restricted recruiting cult not till day 4 could we be in mylo, again if my calculations are correct and there is no collateral damage. and lets be real a 10/5 setup is not happening.

3.Your "suspicion" on rapier is extremely graspy. like horrible reasoning there, it had about as much backing as SB's vote on me, with rapier's probably being RVS, and SB's being a way to try to stop me from spamming. this feels like trying to setup a mislynch very quickly and its just scummy.

4. you are literally taking what eli said about navel and trying to pass it as your own thought.

5. you are factually incorrect about eli changing his vote because of pressure from SB, it was more so the pressure from me rather than SB as i actually continued to question eli on the vote rather than questioning him about other aspects of his posts, such as SB. in addition when people have pressured you to go away from a reaction test, such as what happened with eli, you usually give at least some explanation.

this is why i think you're skimming it doesnt seem like you are actually following whats happening. you even ignored the recent votes on BT for literally no reason. (speaking of which i will be discussing those in my next post but this ones already pretty long)

i dont really care if people call this an OMGUS im just more inclined to believe that mancer's last meaningful post came from scum!mancer rather than town!mancer, for the reasons outlined etc. etc.

##Unvote

##Vote:Mancer

[Randa]

sorry that should be the recent votes on J not BT i mixed the two up.