Good units you avoid using

[Shadow Mir]

Fiona and Lyre are much worse too you could argue (although BEXP is a thing although their caps are reallllly low), but as Baldrick said, you don't really have the qualifications to talk about this.

You're addressing someone who's actually managed to get away with training Fiona. That said, Lyre might have a case for being worse off than Wendy, but I dunno.

If you consider every unit that requires X effort to be usable equally bad and don't bother using them to see the degree of their mediocrity, you're not really qualified to talk about which unit is the worst in the series, are you?

Maybe, maybe not. But was your other statement I quoted really aimed at me? The thing is, as I see it, someone who's worst-unit-in-the-series material would be a Herculean struggle to raise even on the easiest difficulty, which Wendy is, because as I pointed out earlier, she essentially has the whole deck stacked against her.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[secondworld]

In FE7 you have Rath and sorta Louise for good bow users

in FE9, you can use BEXP on Rolf, and Shinon is good in early game

Geitz and Astrid too

[Tamanoir]

Geitz and Astrid too

Yeah I thought about Geitz after posting. Geitz is really good. Probably the best Warrior (not that it's too hard), and one of the best Bow user.

[Jedi]

FE2's bows are truly amazing, but the basic archers you have not that much (Villagers turns Archer can be good though. Cliff mainly, I'd say)

FE7 : Rebecca and Will are decent. Rebecca (and Will, who can use Lyn Mode to train) have many chapters advantages over both Louise and Rath (who comes back far to late to be of any use. He's basically a qlightly worse Est without Lyn's mode (underleveled and no ennemy phases near the end of the game. Here's a unit who needs lots od babying.). You obtain Louise quite late, and have plenty of wyverns knight and Pegasus to beat beforehand, whee Bow efectiveness will see many uses. Louise's main point is her A Support with Pent, which gives a reason to use her, since Pent is so damn great, and allows her to be ready to act immediately in a chapter full of Wyverns.

I think the Tie would be between Lyn Mode's Will (for the good stats/growth and chapter advantages) and Louise (for automatic ability and supporting an amazing unit.).

Rebecca's base strength and growth can leads her really screwed if you're getting unlucky now that I look at it. (She's still a formidable Avo Tank though.)

Wil and Rebecca are worse than Rath, he actually is near promotion on returning and has stats to back it up. They have the same issues Neimi does. Rath is mounted, can rescue people (including Hector which is rare and allows him some very good use), has a good weapon rank and gets swords on promotion. He does not need babying in the slightest.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Neimi is 2 range locked and has meh bases and is a very low level. If you BABY her she might surpass Innes, but that takes alot of effort. I didn't think I'd see the waste exp on prepromote argument again.

Level 1 archers with poor base stats exist in some FE parts (Tanya, Ronan, Wolt, Rolf). The thing is that they're absolute welcome (2 range) in early game and Neimi is growthwise > average all around.

Actually there's absolute no point for me to wait for a sniper with average bases at best in the first half of the game.

[Jedi]

Level 1 archers with poor base stats exist in some FE parts (Tanya, Ronan, Wolt, Rolf). The thing is that they're absolute welcome (2 range) in early game and Neimi is growthwise > average all around.

Actually there's absolute no point for me to wait for a sniper with average bases at best in the first half of the game.

Yeah and all the units you listed are terrible units.

Selfina, Sue, Shin, Igrene, Klein, FE6!Bartre, Shinon. Are all better then the examples you give. The examples you give can give some chip, but in the end they need some serious babying to get anywhere near being ORKOING machines. I mean I like all 4 of those archers, but to say they are good for almost anything is another thing entirely.

Because you know what they don't have? Bases.

The examples I listed? Have actual bases and or utility.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[Azz]

Mozume in Conquest.She can be a great unit if you take the time to baby her but in the long run I don't think it is worth it in Conquest since you cannot grind without DLC.It does not help her case when Conquest already has great lance users early game such as Effie and Silas.She is a great mom though.

[Elieson]

Level 1 archers with poor base stats exist in some FE parts (Tanya, Ronan, Wolt, Rolf). The thing is that they're absolute welcome (2 range) in early game and Neimi is growthwise > average all around.

Actually there's absolute no point for me to wait for a sniper with average bases at best in the first half of the game.

Neimi is neat while you have her, but at no point in FE8 are bows necessary.

in FE6, Chapter 7 has you begging for Wolt (and Sue). Hell, most battles that you can't warpskip and include Wyverns really appreciate bow users. Neimi is good, sure, but in her game, she's entirely overshadowed by dodgetank units or defensively-heavy units that hit way harder and require

In the case of neimi, her value is judged by the amount of contribution she offers until you get to a point where you can start replacing her with virtually anybody else. By chapter 9, virtually everybody else who's being used should all be better and more practically suited for battle than Neimi. By the time you get Innes, he's pre-built to be more than useful.

Unless you are adding a self-imposed challenge to make the rest of your team weaker by having Neimi soak up chip EXP that's better suited for HandAxe!Garcia/Ross or Javelin!Vanessa/Franz/Gilliam even, Neimi is trash in the game that she's in, and she's only better than the absolute chumpiest of chumps such as Knoll

*Edit; Innes!Longbow is nice to have for maybe one or two chapter and requires 0 EXP to deliver, meaning all the exp Neimi needs to do what Innes does can be distributed to make the rest of your better early-game units even more better

Edited August 27, 2015 by Elieson

[NinjaMonkey]

Supposedly Marcia is great in Path of Radiance, but I don't use her (except to recruit Makalov) since she's a Pegasus Knight and all.

Edited August 27, 2015 by NinjaMonkey

[Tragonight]

FE8 doesn't even have that many enemy fliers, so you don't need Bows that badly. All Neimi can do with her bases is chip, and she doesn't possess the base Speed or Defense to avoid or survive the Hand Axe Brigands in the chapter you get her. The point of a Sniper is to do exactly what its name implies - snipe enemies from afar. But abusing 2 range is no use when you can't even kill anything on your own.

Innes shows up and is immediately useful. The desert chapter had probably the most of Pegasus Knights you'll ever see in FE8, and spawning where he is, Innes can help get rid of those reinforcements near the upper part of the map before they threaten your weakened units near the bottom part of it.

[Tamanoir]

Wil and Rebecca are worse than Rath, he actually is near promotion on returning and has stats to back it up. They have the same issues Neimi does. Rath is mounted, can rescue people (including Hector which is rare and allows him some very good use), has a good weapon rank and gets swords on promotion. He does not need babying in the slightest.

But Rebecca have 10 Chapter leads (though her Strength is too shaky to be reliable, even if she would double any ennemy)

Will have at least 6 chapter ( at least 9 if you count Lyn Mode), and if you did Lyn Mode, he's really far from bad. (He's seriously underspecialized and Medium, leading up to good change of RNG screwage.)

It's not particularily hard to have Will be better at killing ennelies by this point.

Rath isn't bad, but his appearance doesn't immediatly erases all the uses Rebecca/Will can have before hands.

Neimi is neat while you have her, but at no point in FE8 are bows necessary.

in FE6, Chapter 7 has you begging for Wolt (and Sue). Hell, most battles that you can't warpskip and include Wyverns really appreciate bow users. Neimi is good, sure, but in her game, she's entirely overshadowed by dodgetank units or defensively-heavy units that hit way harder and require

In the case of neimi, her value is judged by the amount of contribution she offers until you get to a point where you can start replacing her with virtually anybody else. By chapter 9, virtually everybody else who's being used should all be better and more practically suited for battle than Neimi. By the time you get Innes, he's pre-built to be more than useful.

Unless you are adding a self-imposed challenge to make the rest of your team weaker by having Neimi soak up chip EXP that's better suited for HandAxe!Garcia/Ross or Javelin!Vanessa/Franz/Gilliam even, Neimi is trash in the game that she's in, and she's only better than the absolute chumpiest of chumps such as Knoll

*Edit; Innes!Longbow is nice to have for maybe one or two chapter and requires 0 EXP to deliver, meaning all the exp Neimi needs to do what Innes does can be distributed to make the rest of your better early-game units even more better

Actually Knoll is better because you can promote him into summoner as soon as he appears, and he's the best at it. (Lyon's join time makes so than the game is over as soon as you get him, and Ewan's summons are atrocious.)

A shame, because I actually like her, but only Amelia (oh looks, another of my favourite unit!) could be considered worse.

[Tragonight]

A shame, because I actually like her, but only Amelia (oh looks, another of my favourite unit!) could be considered worse.

Except that Amelia is not considered worse. She's an okay unit no matter which path you choose.

[Elieson]

Actually Knoll is better because you can promote him into summoner as soon as he appears, and he's the best at it. (Lyon's join time makes so than the game is over as soon as you get him, and Ewan's summons are atrocious.)

Who are you not promoting, to promote Knoll?

*Edit

Actually I take that back; You're probably not going to try to promote all of Lute/Artur/Natasha/Ewan/L'arachel/Knoll, but you get a fuckton of guiding rings (5 + ch14 and ch19's Secret Shops)

Edited August 27, 2015 by Elieson

[Jedi]

But Rebecca have 10 Chapter leads (though her Strength is too shaky to be reliable, even if she would double any ennemy)

Will have at least 6 chapter ( at least 9 if you count Lyn Mode), and if you did Lyn Mode, he's really far from bad. (He's seriously underspecialized and Medium, leading up to good change of RNG screwage.)

It's not particularily hard to have Will be better at killing ennelies by this point.

But I have Marcus with hand axes and other 1-2 range units doing the same thing as Rebecca and Wil, but better. Rath while suffering some of these issues, can keep up with the pace more often, and also as previously stated, carry Hector. One of the only units with high enough Con to do so.

I mean sure they are usable, not saying that they aren't. It's just as units, they don't pull weight very well until they get alot of exp. Like even with Wil having more of Lyn mode, I don't think he's going to see nearly as much combat as say, Kent, Sain, Erk, Lucius etc.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[Shadow Mir]

Who are you not promoting, to promote Knoll?

*Edit

Actually I take that back; You're probably not going to try to promote all of Lute/Artur/Natasha/Ewan/L'arachel/Knoll, but you get a fuckton of guiding rings (5 + ch14 and ch19's Secret Shops)

For what it's worth, chapter 15 also has a Master Seal.

[Elieson]

in ENM/EHM/HNM/HHM, why would you even deploy Wil in the following...any amount of chapters, considering you have Lyn's gem to dump into Javelins and Hand Axes with.

Chapter 16 (where he joins), he's maybe chipping once or twice. If you're playing very slowly, he might be able to score a kill or two on the 3 Pegasus Knight reinforcements

Chapter 17, he's outclassed by pretty much everybody, as Matthew takes a slot for standard thieving your plethora of horses (Marcus/Sain/Kent/Lowen) and Priscilla for Raven & Lucius recruiting takes up 6 slots. In Hard mode, you have 9 deployment slots, so realistically you have 3 slots available. Wil is competing for a spot with Rebecca/Dorcas/Bartre/Oswin/Erk/Serra/Lyn/Eliwood/Guy/Florina, which is a hard spot for him to earn

Chapter 17x hsa 5 deployment slots, why would you even consider dipping Wil in here. Rebecca would be just as likely to sit this one out

Chapter 18 and 19, you could arguably squeeze Wil/Rebecca in, but not both comfortably when you have Raven/Lucius to consider, and Lyn/Eliwood needing exp by this point

5 chapters later is where Rath shows up, and with +5 speed/HP, +3 Str/Def and a better bow rank by far, along with a practical method of recruitment that gives him reason to engage in more than a small handful of battles, Rath is already on a better start. By now, you have Florina, Ninian and Fiora sucking up deployment slots, and if you want to, Legault/Matthew as your designated thiefbot. 2 Lords, 1 Thief, 1 Healer, 3 Horses and 2 Fliers (Plus your forced Lord) suck up 10 slots, and few chapters offer much more than that, considering Heath is incoming and Rath is a decent addition to the team, even worth replacing probably Lowen at this point if he's tapering off

If you're doing Lyn mode, Rath is just as worthy of training as Wil is, so that's a moot point. Wil is seeing what, 4 chapters (3 levels at best) worth of semi efficient exp.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Elieson

[Tamanoir]

Except that Amelia is not considered worse. She's an okay unit no matter which path you choose.

Seriously, someone should explain me how you chose which units are good or not, because it makes no sense to me.

Amelia is awesome is you train her but so is nearly all the unit, especially in FE8 with infinite training. I can have Neimi be a wondefull ranger that destroy anything

But I have Marcus with hand axes and other 1-2 range units doing the same thing as Rebecca and Wil, but better. Rath while suffering some of these issues, can keep up with the pace more often, and also as previously stated, carry Hector. One of the only units with high enough Con to do so.

I mean sure they are usable, not saying that they aren't. It's just as units, they don't pull weight very well until they get alot of exp. Like even with Wil having more of Lyn mode, I don't think he's going to see nearly as much combat as say, Kent, Sain, Erk, Lucius etc.

Or I could have him not steal kill and gives it to a good unit.

Actually it's low enough Con to carry him, but OK.

I'm not quite sure why it is so important (Hector is perfectly able to fight by himself, normally, and you won't use rescue/drop shenanigans on a normal gameplay.)

You have to prioritise them, sure , but they're not impossible to train, or even particulary hard.

And if you really want to be efficient, youi'll wait for Geitz anyway.

I'm not sayng they're the best, just that presenting rath as the perfect Archer, while saying Will and Rebecca asks too much efforts... is quite insincere.

in ENM/EHM/HNM/HHM, why would you even deploy Wil in the following...any amount of chapters, considering you have Lyn's gem to dump into Javelins and Hand Axes with.

Chapter 16 (where he joins), he's maybe chipping once or twice. If you're playing very slowly, he might be able to score a kill or two on the 3 Pegasus Knight reinforcements

Chapter 17, he's outclassed by pretty much everybody, as Matthew takes a slot for standard thieving your plethora of horses (Marcus/Sain/Kent/Lowen) and Priscilla for Raven & Lucius recruiting takes up 6 slots. In Hard mode, you have 9 deployment slots, so realistically you have 3 slots available. Wil is competing for a spot with Rebecca/Dorcas/Bartre/Oswin/Erk/Serra/Lyn/Eliwood/Guy/Florina, which is a hard spot for him to earn

Chapter 17x hsa 5 deployment slots, why would you even consider dipping Wil in here. Rebecca would be just as likely to sit this one out

Chapter 18 and 19, you could arguably squeeze Wil/Rebecca in, but not both comfortably when you have Raven/Lucius to consider, and Lyn/Eliwood needing exp by this point

5 chapters later is where Rath shows up, and with +5 speed/HP, +3 Str/Def and a better bow rank by far, along with a practical method of recruitment that gives him reason to engage in more than a small handful of battles, Rath is already on a better start. By now, you have Florina, Ninian and Fiora sucking up deployment slots, and if you want to, Legault/Matthew as your designated thiefbot. 2 Lords, 1 Thief, 1 Healer, 3 Horses and 2 Fliers (Plus your forced Lord) suck up 10 slots, and few chapters offer much more than that, considering Heath is incoming and Rath is a decent addition to the team, even worth replacing probably Lowen at this point if he's tapering off

If you're doing Lyn mode, Rath is just as worthy of training as Wil is, so that's a moot point. Wil is seeing what, 4 chapters (3 levels at best) worth of semi efficient exp.

19x isn't mentioned, and it's the chapter where Will/Rebecca are the most usefull. You can't really deploy mages here, and you have a bunch of pegasus cmming your way, which means they'll be quite usefull.

And Lowen is also a completely unnecessary unit, given you already have Kent/Sain (even more with Lyyn Mode), yet you decided the merited a place in the team more than Will/Rebecca (Not that it's wrong to use Lowen at all. Just pointing teh argument seems biased.)

...

All I'm saying is that you consider using Will/Rebecca to be an incredibly hard task. I'm not saying they are ready to go ummedieately, no that they don't needs some management, but so do Rath. The investment you put on him is more worthwile in the end, I agree, but you're still chosing to invest in him. If you chose to invest in Will/Rebecca, they are perfectly viable, that's all.

I'm not discussing about Will/Rebecca being better than Rath, just that they aren't he awfully usable units to train, and you won't be royally screwed if yo put experience on them.

It would be like sayng putting exp into Erk is useless, because Lucius exists and do his job better.

It's not wrong, but it's kinda biased.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Tamanoir

[Elieson]

The pegknts carry Axereavers, so this would be a fine opportunity to train your sword-users that can camp on a Mountain (Raven/Lyn/Eliwood) or just continue steamrolling with your pile of mounts. There's mage reinforcements that come from the forts in 19x, so unless your archers duo are planning to kill the Pegs then camp up there while the rest of your team strolls through the path towards Aion, they're not doing much safely, unless you park a healer up there with em too

Arguably, it's their most practical place to gain some EXP, but is the EXP they gain from an opportunity here worth the fact that you've had little reason to deploy them elsewhere? They're still not doing much in 19, and Javelin chuckers and Horse-slaying equipment is much more practical in 20. 21 features what's essentially free exp in the form of Monks for just about anybody, so while your archers might want to get that exp, you could just as reasonably train up Lyn or Eliwood or hell Bartre (if you're pushing for Karla) and get more out of it in the long run. Alternatively, let Fiora get some exp on them since she obliterates the monks and takes virtually no damage in return, while your horses and thief/torch users bumrush Oleg

What i'm saying is that the exp Wil and Rebecca gain don't contribute towards something that is overall beneficial in the long run. Rath has utility, where Wilbecca don't, so while he's in a class that's not in as high demand, he has servicable stats and a reason to be deployed that isn't situational at best

Edited August 27, 2015 by Elieson

[Tragonight]

Seriously, someone should explain me how you chose which units are good or not, because it makes no sense to me.

Amelia is awesome is you train her but so is nearly all the unit, especially in FE8 with infinite training. I can have Neimi be a wondefull ranger that destroy anything

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or hypocritical. You just said that Amelia is considered worse than Neimi, which I disagreed too. And now you're proving your initial statement wrong. Let me clarify this by asking you personally: do you think Neimi is better than Amelia?

[Tamanoir]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or hypocritical. You just said that Amelia is considered worse than Neimi, which I disagreed too. And now you're proving your initial statement wrong. Let me clarify this by asking you personally: do you think Neimi is better than Amelia?

I'm just wondering. I'm trying to push my opinions asides, and to be analytical about them. (though visibly I'm failing.)

Objectively, due to her join time, Amelia is worse than Neimi.

If you train both equally, Amelia is superior. But if you train both equally, Neimi is also far superior to Innes in all the points that matters (not even counting she can be Ranger and get more utilty over him(Geirikn is still better obviously.)

The question, is what kind of mindset do we use there ? If it's the one when Valnii absue s fair game, my answers will be fairly different.

What i'm saying is that the exp Wil and Rebecca gain don't contribute towards something that is overall beneficial in the long run. Rath has utility, where Wilbecca don't, so while he's in a class that's not in as high demand, he has servicable stats and a reason to be deployed that isn't situational at best

And what I'm saying is that using them doesn't hurt actively the team.

It's not the most efficient units, but you won't screw up yourself forever if you use them.

Rebecca can be somewhat prone to strength screwage, but Will solid (but unimpressive) growths makes him less prone to stat screwage than most units. (Lowen, since you mentioned him earlier, comes to mind.)

That's all. They are usable. And they have some limited opportunity to be somewhat usefull.

They are superior to Rath for a couple of chapters, for the only reason that Rath isn't present, but they may lose their leads once he appears, if you didn't overtrained them.

Can we agree with this ?

[Carmine Sword]

Why does it matter which one is better between Amelia and Neimi, they're both terrible.

[Elieson]

using Wallace doesn't actively hurt your team except by taking a slot from someone who can do what he does, easier

Wilbecca fulfill a tiny niche in the game, but when Javelins and Hand Axes are better in just about every way, you're basically carrying a cement block on your back while you shuffle through Elibe.

I can agree with the idea that Wil/Rebecca contribute more than Rath does, since Rath isn't there to compete with them, and for a while, Rebecca is forced

I can agree that while Rebecca is prone to stat screwage, she's also around and forced, where Wil has to fight for a deployment slot for the entirety of his Not-LynMode career

Edited August 27, 2015 by Elieson

[Zerosabers]

I'd say Neimi is better since at least she has a small niche for a little bit. Amelia has nothing going for her.

[Elieson]

recruiting Amelia means you don't have to deploy Colm to steal her Speedwing.

[Tragonight]

I'm just wondering. I'm trying to push my opinions asides, and to be analytical about them. (though visibly I'm failing.)

Objectively, due to her join time, Amelia is worse than Neimi.

If you train both equally, Amelia is superior. But if you train both equally, Neimi is also far superior to Innes in all the points that matters (not even counting she can be Ranger and get more utilty over him(Geirikn is still better obviously.)

The question, is what kind of mindset do we use there ? If it's the one when Valnii absue s fair game, my answers will be fairly different.

Amelia may be worse off with bases, but she makes up for that by the amount of experience she gains every time she fights, and the growing room she has (plus, although it's not recommended, she can counterattack on Enemy Phase). Neimi gets less experience than Amelia per kill because of early join time and level, and her bases ensure that she isn't getting any kills on her own without some babying. Innes, on the other hand, is immediately great and doesn't suffer from Neimi's problems. Neimi can be a Ranger, which Innes can not, but the amount of resources given to Neimi likely will not prove worthwhile. More often than not, Innes is resorted to as a primary Bow user.

Without the Tower, Innes beats Neimi. And even with the Tower, the grinding is better put to use on someone like Amelia.