Good units you avoid using

[Baldrick]

Have you even played FE12?

I don't think Wendy's even the worst armour knight in the series. FE4 has bigger maps, console Canto, no rescue command. Arden and Hannibal lack a Triangle attack, which may be impractical, but it's at least a redeeming feature if you're determined to use the armour knight trio in FE6.

[Jedi]

Have you even played FE12?

I don't think Wendy's even the worst armour knight in the series. FE4 has bigger maps, console Canto, no rescue command. Arden and Hannibal lack a Triangle attack, which may be impractical, but it's at least a redeeming feature if you're determined to use the armour knight trio in FE6.

True, but in Ardans case he's an OK Dad and gets you the pursuit ring! AT LEAST.

[maybe]

also, the AI hates Hannibal

that actually helped me a lot since when i put him on the castle the wyverns would stop vigorously gangbanging Aless long enough for him, Celice, Faval, and Shanan to kill them

you should literally never use wendy because she could die at the slightest touch of an axe

Edited August 26, 2015 by maybe

[Draco]

Just because they're difficult to train doesn't make them a bad unit. You can say the same about almost all Ests, but what's the point of an Est again? The training pays off. Not every Est is as difficult to train as Sophia is, but I wouldn't brand her a bad character because of how hard she is to train. Once she can hold her own, she becomes better than Raigh and Niime.

I really don't think Sophia ever gets better than Raigh. I trained both Raigh and Sophia but the only superior stats she had were Res and... Magic, iirc? She wasn't really worth it for me.

[Carmine Sword]

Ests are supposed to have good growths and Sophia doesn't even have those.

[Knight]

My opinion of Ests has always been that they're an optional challenge to the player, definitely not a good unit overall in most cases since training them is so difficult. You end up getting a unit that's slightly better than your other units, for maybe like the last few chapters of the game. However, if somebody wants to, they can train them just for the challenge, so I don't consider them bad design.

[Refa]

Yeah, the cast definitely does not need to be perfectly balanced. I just think that Ests should be easier to train and/or offer more reward for training them. It's ridiculous that in the DS remakes, Catria has almost identical growths and better bases and an earlier join time when compared to Est.

[FrostyFireMage]

I think Sara from FE5 is a perfect example of a good Est.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Neimi will have better (average) stats when she's promoted.

pls, the only thing Neimi has on Innes, is she can gain a horse. And you do have to continually ask yourself if thats even worth it. Because she is a paper fucking bag, mate.

[Carmine Sword]

There's no way that Neimi will be better than Innes by the time you get him. 20/1 Sniper Neimi has only 2 Skill, 3 Speed, and 1 Res over base Innes, and Nemi won't hit 20/1 ever by Chapter 10 without an absurd amount of favoritism.

EDIT: Also with regards to Percival, he joins statistically superior to 20/5 Alance and with higher Weapon Ranks to boot with no effort on the player's part.

(Stats are rounded)

20/5 Alan: 44HP/19Str/15Skl/18Spd/12Lck/14Def/5Res

20/5 Lance: 41HP/16Str/18Skl/22Spd/10Lck/13Def/6Res

--/5 Percival: 51HP/20Str/16Skl/20Spd/15Lck/15Def/13Res

Percival beats Alan in every stat and is only slightly behind Lance in Skill and Speed.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Carmine Sword

[Jedi]

Yeah, the cast definitely does not need to be perfectly balanced. I just think that Ests should be easier to train and/or offer more reward for training them. It's ridiculous that in the DS remakes, Catria has almost identical growths and better bases and an earlier join time when compared to Est.

Not to mention Palla too, and Caeda.

My opinion of Ests has always been that they're an optional challenge to the player, definitely not a good unit overall in most cases since training them is so difficult. You end up getting a unit that's slightly better than your other units, for maybe like the last few chapters of the game. However, if somebody wants to, they can train them just for the challenge, so I don't consider them bad design.

They are also for people who enjoy babying units. Although I have bias for some like Nino and Est so I develop strategies to boost them up asap, I think in FE7 I can get Nino to promotion in just one chapter after she joins, it took some planning though.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Jedi

[BrightBow]

I don't use Narron from Tear Ring Saga.

Because he is not only a gamebreaker but he is also very boring in that regard. Like, all the Pegasus Knights have to be top tier in this game, but at least the ability to fly opens all kinds of possibilities. All Narron does, it to kill everything without the risk of dying, so the game gets more interesting if he isn't used. It's really nice that you actually get something out of not using him, since he is just one of several characters that you get to choose from.

Edited August 26, 2015 by BrightBow

[Tamanoir]

Oh, yeah. I use Garcia so little I forgot he usually warms the bench.

Not to mention Palla too, and Caeda.

They are also for people who enjoy babying units. Although I have bias for some like Nino and Est so I develop strategies to boost them up asap, I think in FE7 I can get Nino to promotion in just one chapter after she joins, it took some planning though.

Funnily enough, Est may really be the worse of the Ests archetype (FE3/12 is even worse, because it gives you Catria really early, and Paella as a crutch character.)

Fe2 is the only kind of exception, but well... it's FE2, and it's mainly thanks to the Angel Ring existing.

You totally can have Nino to level 20 on 26x. It is a pain and takes tons of turn, but I made it more than once (on nearly each of my FE7 playthroughs. And given it's my most played game...)

Prepromotes may be good, but, to me, they're not really fun to use. They're all flashy and great, but the satisfaction that comes with training your own units is just superior. They're here if you were screwed up with your growths, or is to "lazy" to train some units. (I'm not putting any judgement here. They can be really amazing.)

That's why I love Ests so much. Raising them from zeroes to heroes, and having them destroy their destroy all opposition (Nino being a one woman army is a perfect example.). I know it hasn't lots to do with my merits, but it feels so great.

[Refa]

Not to mention Palla too, and Caeda.

I'm pretty sure they both have worse growths than Est.

[Jedi]

I'm pretty sure they both have worse growths than Est.

I thought Palla had better str and spd, whoops.

Oh, yeah. I use Garcia so little I forgot he usually warms the bench.

Funnily enough, Est may really be the worse of the Ests archetype (FE3/12 is even worse, because it gives you Catria really early, and Paella as a crutch character.)

Fe2 is the only kind of exception, but well... it's FE2, and it's mainly thanks to the Angel Ring existing.

You totally can have Nino to level 20 on 26x. It is a pain and takes tons of turn, but I made it more than once (on nearly each of my FE7 playthroughs. And given it's my most played game...)

I usually don't get her all the way to 20 before promotion lol, 13ish or 15 depending on stats, sometimes earlier.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

pls, the only thing Neimi has on Innes, is she can gain a horse. And you do have to continually ask yourself if thats even worth it. Because she is a paper fucking bag, mate.

I think you underrestimate her growthrates.

Only her def. is worse than Innes', when she becomes a sniper. A stat she doesn't need anyway. Strength, skill and speed are the important stats and these are all stats she's better than him.

There's no way that Neimi will be better than Innes by the time you get him. 20/1 Sniper Neimi has only 2 Skill, 3 Speed, and 1 Res over base Innes, and Nemi won't hit 20/1 ever by Chapter 10 without an absurd amount of favoritism.

It only applies to Eirika's route though.

And how is this a problem for her?

Why shall I waste exp. on prepromotes, who'll be outclassed later?

I know it's FE8, but still...

[Jedi]

I think you underrestimate her growthrates.

Only her def. is worse than Innes', when she becomes a sniper. A stat she doesn't need anyway. Strength, skill and speed are the important stats and these are all stats she's better than him.

It only applies to Eirika's route though.

And how is this a problem for her?

Why shall I waste exp. on prepromotes, who'll be outclassed later?

I know it's FE8, but still...

Bases > Growths.

Neimi is 2 range locked and has meh bases and is a very low level. If you BABY her she might surpass Innes, but that takes alot of effort. I didn't think I'd see the waste exp on prepromote argument again.

[Shadow Mir]

Have you even played FE12?

I don't think Wendy's even the worst armour knight in the series. FE4 has bigger maps, console Canto, no rescue command. Arden and Hannibal lack a Triangle attack, which may be impractical, but it's at least a redeeming feature if you're determined to use the armour knight trio in FE6.

Is this supposed to be aimed at me?

Maybe you should play FE12 Lunatic and understand why literally the entire cast after (iirc) Ellrean's jointime is called Free Silvers.

Wendy IS more trainable than them. And the later it gets, the worse it gets. Wendy's definitely a terrible unit, but FE12 Lunatic, much as I like the difficulty balance in itself, is pretty awful with its character balance. It would've benefitted from something like FE13's jointime-scaling hardmode bonuses just to make later units even feasible (without like, dumping literally the entirety of Lunatic Statboosters AND Starsphere AND the best forge in the game and they'll prolly still be subpar as fuck), and it would not have broken the difficulty, but alas, they didn't.

Half of FE12's cast is unusable on Lunatic maybe even 2/3rds, Wendy with paitence can be somewhat usable in FE6 HM.

There is no spoonfeeding in FE12 Lunatic.

Ok, I get it, FE12's cast has a bunch of throwaway units. Not that Wendy actually being trainable means much of anything to me, since she's just another throwaway unit, as I see it...

Edited August 27, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Baldrick]

Seth is a good unit, Vanessa is also a good unit. They must be equally good, right?

You said there couldn't exist a unit worse than Wendy. People showed you there not only could be worse units, there are. The least you could do is admit you have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Baldrick

[Shadow Mir]

Seth is a good unit, Vanessa is also a good unit. They must be equally good, right?

You said there couldn't exist a unit worse than Wendy. People showed you there not only could be worse units, there are. The least you could do is admit you have no idea what you're talking about.

Nope.

I was actually thinking more along the lines that there's only so far I'll go to try to salvage a unit. Wendy requires me to go way too far for that, to the point where idgaf, I'm branding her unusable and calling it a day.

[Tamanoir]

Bases > Growths.

Neimi is 2 range locked and has meh bases and is a very low level. If you BABY her she might surpass Innes, but that takes alot of effort. I didn't think I'd see the waste exp on prepromote argument again.

You don't have to baby her.

She's your only bow-using units for a while. You may makes a point about how usefull bows are, but the point remains the same :

If you wants to have a bow using units, she's your only choice for a while.

And if you don't like bow, then... Why even use Innes ?

Innes will forever be bow locked. Gerik and Garcia could also use bow (not that it's necessarily a good idea, obviously), and be more usefull (if you promote Getik at base, he have a stats advantage evrywhere except speed (1 point), Luck (6 point) and Res(2 point).) + Horse and 1 range option (once again, it's for the sake of argument. It's absolutely nota good idea.)

Neimi adds something unique to the team no one else can provides at the time.

That would be like saying Vanessa, or moulder needs babying (granted, flying and healing utility are far more important.

Sure Neimi needs more training than Innes. In the same way Franz needs more training than Seth. But no one will says that Franz (Or Forde,and Kyle, actually) needs babying to be good. And you have even less reasons to use them that you have to use Neimi.

Once again, I have nothing about Innes, and no one forces you to use Neimi (Her bases are quite bad, but her level is perfectly OK. Lute comes the same level, 1-2 chapter afterwards, and no one complain about babying her.)

But "babying" is a wrong term here. She has a real use and appears in a chapter designated to help her train (and/or Ross.)

[Baldrick]

Nope.

I was actually thinking more along the lines that there's only so far I'll go to try to salvage a unit. Wendy requires me to go way too far for that, to the point where idgaf, I'm branding her unusable and calling it a day.

If you consider every unit that requires X effort to be usable equally bad and don't bother using them to see the degree of their mediocrity, you're not really qualified to talk about which unit is the worst in the series, are you?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Baldrick

[Jedi]

Nope.

I was actually thinking more along the lines that there's only so far I'll go to try to salvage a unit. Wendy requires me to go way too far for that, to the point where idgaf, I'm branding her unusable and calling it a day.

Fiona and Lyre are much worse too you could argue (although BEXP is a thing although their caps are reallllly low), but as Baldrick said, you don't really have the qualifications to talk about this.

You don't have to baby her.

She's your only bow-using units for a while. You may makes a point about how usefull bows are, but the point remains the same :

If you wants to have a bow using units, she's your only choice for a while.

And if you don't like bow, then... Why even use Innes ?

Innes will forever be bow locked. Gerik and Garcia could also use bow (not that it's necessarily a good idea, obviously), and be more usefull (if you promote Getik at base, he have a stats advantage evrywhere except speed (1 point), Luck (6 point) and Res(2 point).) + Horse and 1 range option (once again, it's for the sake of argument. It's absolutely nota good idea.)

Neimi adds something unique to the team no one else can provides at the time.

That would be like saying Vanessa, or moulder needs babying (granted, flying and healing utility are far more important.

Sure Neimi needs more training than Innes. In the same way Franz needs more training than Seth. But no one will says that Franz (Or Forde,and Kyle, actually) needs babying to be good. And you have even less reasons to use them that you have to use Neimi.

Once again, I have nothing about Innes, and no one forces you to use Neimi (Her bases are quite bad, but her level is perfectly OK. Lute comes the same level, 1-2 chapter afterwards, and no one complain about babying her.)

But "babying" is a wrong term here. She has a real use and appears in a chapter designated to help her train (and/or Ross.)

Theres a difference here, Franz, Lute, and the others you mentioned don't need to be put in special situations to get level ups, Neimi is a deterrent other then minor chip damage, until she gets to a decent enough level where her stats can actually be good. Which since she's an IS archer, is a laughable prospect unless you ARE babying her.

Bows are a good weapon type, and Snipers, Nomads and others prove this to a T, however until recently in FE12/14 there has yet to be a single really good unit in the basic starting Archer class.

FE2 had ridiculous ones due to the 1-5 range,

FE4 had Jamka, Briggid and Faval, all good stated units, Midir as well, and hey Jamka is an unpromoted foot bowman, he has GOOD STATS to back that up, which is rare.

FE1/3 had the likes of Gordin and Tomas who can't really contribute, Jeorge while merely ok, can get the job done at least. Same with the likes of Wolf and Sedgar.

FE5 has Ronan and Tanya who can do OK, but they suffer from bad bases and low starting level, There is also Selfina who is hit and miss due to her bld, but hey she's mounted and can use the Brave Bow.

FE6 has Wolt who is not that useful other then early game chip, Dorothy is much the same, Sue, Shin, Igrene and Klein on the other hand are well designed bow users

In FE7 you have Rath and sorta Louise for good bow users

in FE8 you have Innes

in FE9, you can use BEXP on Rolf, and Shinon is good in early game

FE10, Shinon is really awesome

FE11, class changes allowed for some interesting things

FE12, we finally get a GOOD character in the basic archer class, Ryan. Snipers enjoy one of their best runs in the Lunatic mode of this game.

FE13, we regress and get Virion, arguably one of the worst archers in the series.

FE14, we seem to have really good units like Takumi.

See theres something about Archers that screws them out of exp. The lack of an enemy phase, unless you set it up. So Archers need to first, have really good bases, 2nd have such a good player phase that they contribute, and 3rd. They don't slow you down.

Like I mean I've used Neimi, I like her, but in terms of overall effectiveness? She's easily one of the worst units FE8 has to offer, due to it being a very mobile game, because the game just gives you so many mounts right off the bat, and they have 1-2 range combat.

When Innes comes in? He can kill stuff, he can somewhat keep up, because he doesn't take multiple rounds to kill things.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Jedi

[Tamanoir]

Fiona and Lyre are much worse too you could argue (although BEXP is a thing although their caps are reallllly low), but as Baldrick said, you don't really have the qualifications to talk about this.

Theres a difference here, Franz, Lute, and the others you mentioned don't need to be put in special situations to get level ups, Neimi is a deterrent other then minor chip damage, until she gets to a decent enough level where her stats can actually be good. Which since she's an IS archer, is a laughable prospect unless you ARE babying her.

Bows are a good weapon type, and Snipers, Nomads and others prove this to a T, however until recently in FE12/14 there has yet to be a single really good unit in the basic starting Archer class.

FE2 had ridiculous ones due to the 1-5 range,

FE4 had Jamka, Briggid and Faval, all good stated units, Midir as well, and hey Jamka is an unpromoted foot bowman, he has GOOD STATS to back that up, which is rare.

FE1/3 had the likes of Gordin and Tomas who can't really contribute, Jeorge while merely ok, can get the job done at least. Same with the likes of Wolf and Sedgar.

FE5 has Ronan and Tanya who can do OK, but they suffer from bad bases and low starting level, There is also Selfina who is hit and miss due to her bld, but hey she's mounted and can use the Brave Bow.

FE6 has Wolt who is not that useful other then early game chip, Dorothy is much the same, Sue, Shin, Igrene and Klein on the other hand are well designed bow users

In FE7 you have Rath and sorta Louise for good bow users

in FE8 you have Innes

in FE9, you can use BEXP on Rolf, and Shinon is good in early game

FE10, Shinon is really awesome

FE11, class changes allowed for some interesting things

FE12, we finally get a GOOD character in the basic archer class, Ryan. Snipers enjoy one of their best runs in the Lunatic mode of this game.

FE13, we regress and get Virion, arguably one of the worst archers in the series.

FE14, we seem to have really good units like Takumi.

See theres something about Archers that screws them out of exp. The lack of an enemy phase, unless you set it up. So Archers need to first, have really good bases, 2nd have such a good player phase that they contribute, and 3rd. They don't slow you down.

Like I mean I've used Neimi, I like her, but in terms of overall effectiveness? She's easily one of the worst units FE8 has to offer, due to it being a very mobile game, because the game just gives you so many mounts right off the bat, and they have 1-2 range combat.

When Innes comes in? He can kill stuff, he can somewhat keep up, because he doesn't take multiple rounds to kill things.

FE2's bows are truly amazing, but the basic archers you have not that much (Villagers turns Archer can be good though. Cliff mainly, I'd say)

FE7 : Rebecca and Will are decent. Rebecca (and Will, who can use Lyn Mode to train) have many chapters advantages over both Louise and Rath (who comes back far to late to be of any use. He's basically a qlightly worse Est without Lyn's mode (underleveled and no ennemy phases near the end of the game. Here's a unit who needs lots od babying.). You obtain Louise quite late, and have plenty of wyverns knight and Pegasus to beat beforehand, whee Bow efectiveness will see many uses. Louise's main point is her A Support with Pent, which gives a reason to use her, since Pent is so damn great, and allows her to be ready to act immediately in a chapter full of Wyverns.

I think the Tie would be between Lyn Mode's Will (for the good stats/growth and chapter advantages) and Louise (for automatic ability and supporting an amazing unit.).

Rebecca's base strength and growth can leads her really screwed if you're getting unlucky now that I look at it. (She's still a formidable Avo Tank though.)

Looking more closely, you're actually pretty right about Neimi. Her bases are just far too low, for her growths to makes it for it. She's surpassed by Innes as a Sniper on Eirika's Mode, and By Gerik as a Ranger in both case (considering you made Gerik a Ranger, indeed. (He has a speed disadvantage (mitigated by his high Con) ,Luck, and some few point of Res on Average. At base. )

Edited August 27, 2015 by Tamanoir

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Why are some of the post whining about good units being listed?

Anyway I've been doing some FE6 again recently and I decided to not use Niime, and.... lets just say the difference is massive. I couldn't finish stage I didn't like with 2 button press :(