Realm of Mirrors - Game Over

[Refa]

Okay, so, what I remember about how I felt last phrase is that I wanted to poke into Oceanbourne more because I wasn't feeling so good about him. Read on Junko hasn't changed.

Refa, I don't really agree that GP held onto her "case" on me longer than scum would because from a bit of ISO rereading she never had a case on me. She thought I was null. Her initial vote was on Cam, whom she never pushed outside of it. She dropped her suspicion on him a bit later on, but her vote on Quote was just poorly explained and she didn't push it or defend it aside from responding to Quote when Quote brought it up. Other than the person she was currently voting, she doesn't have a "committed" read on anyone.

##Vote: GP

Uh...where is the poking, then?

ISOing people is for NERDS and scum. Seriously though, yeah I misread her issues with you as a case. I dunno, though, her explanation seemed really genuine. I agree w/you about her vote on Quote (I didn't even remember she was voting Quote until I checked back), but I don't mind her not having a committed read because it was Day 1 and she still had an active thought process regarding several players.

Forgot to talk about Izhuark and Coby but basically I don't see Izhuark being so defeatist as scum (it's a pretty lame ass attitude to have though). I don't blame myself for forgetting about Coby though because he hasn't even posted. Also less sure about Paperblade being town because part of that was based on his early SB scumread (when I thought SB scumslipped), but I mean...that conviction, bro.

[Sunwoo]

Uh...where is the poking, then?

You'll have to wait a bit, because I have a headache and if I couldn't comprehend his content with a clear mind in D1 I don't think a headache will help at all.

[Oceanbourne]

I never voted Clarinets hold on a sec

[Sunwoo]

ISOing people is for NERDS and scum. Seriously though, yeah I misread her issues with you as a case. I dunno, though, her explanation seemed really genuine. I agree w/you about her vote on Quote (I didn't even remember she was voting Quote until I checked back), but I don't mind her not having a committed read because it was Day 1 and she still had an active thought process regarding several players.

Well, it's not so much that she lacks a committed read but there were players who were active whom she seemed to not give any thoughts on (despite she and me discussing my post about Shin … she didn't have anything to say about Shin himself), randomly bringing up Elie without really saying anything about him, and not a whole lot on anyone else? I'm not sure where she stands on Junko (whom she did discuss) and again her suspicion on Quote felt too weak for me to understand where it's coming from.

Forgot to talk about Izhuark and Coby but basically I don't see Izhuark being so defeatist as scum (it's a pretty lame ass attitude to have though). I don't blame myself for forgetting about Coby though because he hasn't even posted. Also less sure about Paperblade being town because part of that was based on his early SB scumread (when I thought SB scumslipped), but I mean...that conviction, bro.

I think having a defeatist attitude is not alignment-indicative, so I think Izuhark reacting that way doesn't disqualify him from being scum. I'm never really sure how to read Paperblade, especially on the early days, but so far I'm not really bothered by him other than wishing he was more active.

[Sunwoo]

Holy fuck, formatting. Give me a second to fix that.

[Sunwoo]

ISOing people is for NERDS and scum. Seriously though, yeah I misread her issues with you as a case. I dunno, though, her explanation seemed really genuine. I agree w/you about her vote on Quote (I didn't even remember she was voting Quote until I checked back), but I don't mind her not having a committed read because it was Day 1 and she still had an active thought process regarding several players.

Well, it's not so much that she lacks a committed read but there were players who were active whom she seemed to not give any thoughts on (despite she and me discussing my post about Shin she didn't have anything to say about Shin himself), randomly bringing up Elie without really saying anything about him, and not a whole lot on anyone else? I'm not sure where she stands on Junko (whom she did discuss) and again her suspicion on Quote felt too weak for me to understand where it's coming from.

Forgot to talk about Izhuark and Coby but basically I don't see Izhuark being so defeatist as scum (it's a pretty lame ass attitude to have though). I don't blame myself for forgetting about Coby though because he hasn't even posted. Also less sure about Paperblade being town because part of that was based on his early SB scumread (when I thought SB scumslipped), but I mean...that conviction, bro.

I think having a defeatist attitude is not alignment-indicative, so I think Izuhark reacting that way doesn't disqualify him from being scum. I'm never really sure how to read Paperblade, especially on the early days, but so far I'm not really bothered by him other than wishing he was more active.

[Grace]

I am good at votals. Fixed end of phase votals (again)

[Refa]

Boron, you okay with me holding off on replying to the GP stuff until she actually makes a reply? At this point, there's nothing about your case on GP where I'm like "okay, I think these points are bad and I need to argue against them" so yeah (my opinion hasn't changed but I'd like to see her response).

I think having a defeatist attitude is not alignment-indicative, so I think Izuhark reacting that way doesn't disqualify him from being scum. I'm never really sure how to read Paperblade, especially on the early days, but so far I'm not really bothered by him other than wishing he was more active.

Having a defeatist attitude isn't alignment indicative, it's more of a meta read based on his past few games. I can get your issues with him since you haven't played many games w/him (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong) which is why I'm not all that bothered by them. I can never read Paperblade well unless he's on the chopping block, but that's more because of his lack of content over him actually being hard to read.

I never voted Clarinets hold on a sec

Seriously? Fuck this noise. Still need to ISO you but I don't feel comfortable voting you anymore considering that you being on the wagon was my main reasoning. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...I'd look at Elieson over Paperblade (SB is just off the table) but I don't feel all that confident in either of them.

##Unvote

##Vote: Junko

[Refa]

To clarify my position on GP, I don't have any issues w/the points you brought up (they're reasonable points); they just don't outweigh what I mentioned in my last post.

[Sunwoo]

I don't mind at all.

[Paperblade]

##Vote: SB

I don't believe such similar roles would be in the game

[charlie_]

##Vote: SB

masquerade

i ended up needing to play all 5 games because of amazing afks so i'll reread to make something more substantial in the morning, but

##Vote: Ocean

I don't like the Junko vote from deadline because it seemed really non-commital even if he was starting to scumread Junko, like he was saying he was doing it because he had to and didn't want to be held responsible for the end result. Also "L-1 this is chaotic" and then "I'll be around so Unvote" feels like he was just hoping shit would go wrong.

[Junk]

feel a bit frustrated on people calling me out on having no reads since the only read i have (elieson) hasn't posted very much. @refa in AM/PM 2 elie could not commit for some reason i forgot and rarely posted and was found out to be scum. can happen both alignments.

regarding SB, so maybe i'm just dumb but if SB's role were to exist wouldn't manix have to mix up roles or something with names? Also yeah my SB read is mostly old. Scum could've easily fabricated a response to my shin question i realize so didn't get much out of that.

idk looking back i'm kind of wary about shin (yes shin being scum wary). My read isn't the best because his reasoning makes sense and i actually have trouble explaining how i feel but it;s rather how he went about everything in this game.

>when he talks about the elie/paper/via trio his reasoning for the via vote being not that good makes sense but the other two votes he doesn't really talk about much and it just feels empty. I guess the best way to explain is calling the elie/paper/via trio votes easy almost well feels too easy heh. Doesn't help me that i think that elie's vote was not good either in the scummy way and that's the exact reason why i have a gut feeling on him. I don't even think i make sense anymore but i'll keep on going. He doesn't really explain why my exchange with via was bad or why via was bad for it either. When he uses oceanbournes post to say what he felt about me can't help but think that makes his trio of voters look worse since it makes me look like a victim. Reason why this doesn't apply to ocean himself is because think he was voting via for totally differnet reasons than shin.

also it's hypocritical to call me out for no reads when shin has pretty much had one read (via) which like my SB read was also old. Would like to see what you got from reading my and cam's exchange and paper's. Also kind of find it weird how the idea of getting via (who you currently your had vote on i think?) lynched kind of just dropped when you could have tried to advocate to switch to via at least since that was more feasible.

## Vote Shin

[Junk]

also sb what is your read on me now?

[Paperblade]

Was anyone redirected last night?

[CobyTheGoober]

I've been staying silent, but I agree with Junko so I'm going with

## Vote Shin

Edited December 31, 2015 by CobyTheKid

[Junk]

##unvote

##vote cobythekid

it's been long enough and that's it >_> (opinion on shin hasn't changed)

[Sunwoo]

Ugh, what the fuck

Coby, you are not allowed to get away with an unexplained vote. Especially after missing all of D1 and not providing a single read or original thought. What do you think of the players now, who else do you suspect, and what specifically do you agree with Junko about regarding his vote?

[Shin]

feel a bit frustrated on people calling me out on having no reads since the only read i have (elieson) hasn't posted very much. @refa in AM/PM 2 elie could not commit for some reason i forgot and rarely posted and was found out to be scum. can happen both alignments.

regarding SB, so maybe i'm just dumb but if SB's role were to exist wouldn't manix have to mix up roles or something with names? Also yeah my SB read is mostly old. Scum could've easily fabricated a response to my shin question i realize so didn't get much out of that.

idk looking back i'm kind of wary about shin (yes shin being scum wary). My read isn't the best because his reasoning makes sense and i actually have trouble explaining how i feel but it;s rather how he went about everything in this game.

>when he talks about the elie/paper/via trio his reasoning for the via vote being not that good makes sense but the other two votes he doesn't really talk about much and it just feels empty. I guess the best way to explain is calling the elie/paper/via trio votes easy almost well feels too easy heh. Doesn't help me that i think that elie's vote was not good either in the scummy way and that's the exact reason why i have a gut feeling on him. I don't even think i make sense anymore but i'll keep on going. He doesn't really explain why my exchange with via was bad or why via was bad for it either. When he uses oceanbournes post to say what he felt about me can't help but think that makes his trio of voters look worse since it makes me look like a victim. Reason why this doesn't apply to ocean himself is because think he was voting via for totally differnet reasons than shin.

also it's hypocritical to call me out for no reads when shin has pretty much had one read (via) which like my SB read was also old. Would like to see what you got from reading my and cam's exchange and paper's. Also kind of find it weird how the idea of getting via (who you currently your had vote on i think?) lynched kind of just dropped when you could have tried to advocate to switch to via at least since that was more feasible.

## Vote Shin

Welcome to the Shin biography, detailing the life and times of SHIN. Hopefully winning several awards by the time it's published!

Red: "This read might not be very good because Shin actually makes sense" does not a good start make!

Orange: Waffle on how my vote felt easy, but then you agree?

Green: You're not really selling this to me.

Blue: I mentioned that swapping to Via wasn't likely because nobody else really felt like it and I had massive concerns about how the Clarinets wagon built up.

In short, it's a lot of writing, but when you're not even sure about your own case, it doesn't really strike me with conviction. Uncertainty at that level shows a lack of commitment. If you think I'm scummy enough to be voted for, it should be reflected in your case.

I'm not entirely sure what Coby's trying to do. I'm not sure if they're new to mafia, but the lack of anything in that's quite something. I'd also recommend against editing posts in a game of mafia.

More words coming shortly.

[Green Poet]

Reading thread starting from my last post yesterday, and will work on a content post when that's finished. I'll be around for the next two hours or so if anyone online now has stuff to ask me directly before I poof for another 24-ish hours.

[Sunwoo]

GP, please respond to things in this post if you can.

[Shin]

I seem to always townread Refa, which was kinda bad last game because he was SCUM MASTERMIND. I kinda looked through Via's game history to see if subbing out had any pattern, but it seems to be a 50/50 split between town and scum so gg. I'm still pretty wary of the slot, I can't say Refa's quite done enough to quell my suspicions.

SB's been incredibly behind the scenes this game. I normally recall him being more involved in discussion. He's turned up to clarify his role but there's not much substance to his game. I can totally understand not wanting to be lynched for something that's wrong, there's no problem with that whatsoever, but when it's the most meaningful thing you do, survival appears to take priority over scumhunting.

I wasn't really expecting Cam's death, he didn't seem horrendously towny, so he might have been on to something. Boron's still reading null to me, although I'd be more suspicious if it had gotten to D4 and she were still alive.

##Vote: Junko

After an amazingly long post about the horrors of SHIN, the jump on Coby was incredibly quick. Coby's vote is really bad, but I feel it's more about being very new than necessarily scum intention. If anything, Coby's scumbuddies would have told him what to do.

[Green Poet]

I've been staying silent, but I agree with Junko so I'm going with

## Vote Shin

This is pretty empty but not alignment-indicative imo.

##unvote

##vote cobythekid

it's been long enough and that's it >_> (opinion on shin hasn't changed)

If your scumread on Shin has not changed, why is Coby more vote-worthy than Shin? Does the fact that he avoided posting for D1 and only posted briefly in D2 make him scummier than someone whose posts you have been able to analyze at length?

re: Boron's post(s).

Her initial vote was on Cam, whom she never pushed outside of it.

Cam was scummy ED1 because he voted SB, repeatedly stated that he thought SB was scummier than other people he was actively discussing, and yet had not given concrete reasons to begin with as to why SB was scummy. I did not have issues with Cam's later posts, because he pursued Junko instead throughout much of page 9 with posts and evidence that were all solidly constructed and genuine-looking. I did not push the case because his new content did not warrant that.

Refa, I don't really agree that GP held onto her "case" on me longer than scum would because from a bit of ISO rereading she never had a case on me. She thought I was null.

This is correct. I did not think you were likely to be scum and would not have included you in a D1 lynch priority. What I imagine is that Refa saw that I was continuing a back-and-forth with you over posting semantics and whatnot, which looked like me not wanting to drop the "case."

She dropped her suspicion on him a bit later on, but her vote on Quote was just poorly explained and she didn't push it or defend it aside from responding to Quote when Quote brought it up.

I don't think it was poorly explained. Via's posts were lengthy but not substantial in terms of game-relevant or player-diverse content. They looked padded.

When he brought up my case, what he said was just this:

green poet's vote on me feels like a votepark and is pinging me but i don't feel like reading her wallpost yet and i haven't read a lot of her other content fully so [spins around]

In other words, he had not yet entirely read the reasons for my voting him. He did not provide me with anything to refute, then or later, so I don't see why you have an issue with my case on Via.

Other than the person she was currently voting, she doesn't have a "committed" read on anyone.

I can see what you mean by this. Yes, when I voted Via, my scumread on Cam had diminished. I only had one singularly confident scumread at any given time during D1. I agree with this part of your case on me, and will try to be more perceptive so that I'm not only focusing on a single scumread. I'm not sure what else to say on that matter.

---

Clarinets lynch analysis

---

I think that this post by Clarinets was suspect because it began by with "I'm packing a lot of content into this" but most of the post's length derived from quoted text rather than original text. I probably would've been on board with the Clarinets end-of-day wagon had I been around, actually.

Oceanbourne's #209 is good.

I feel like town SB is more likely to make this post? I'll need to think about it

Could you please start explaining the conclusions you're drawing from each of SB's posts? I feel like each time I see Paper mentioning SB he references what SB would or would not do and just leaves it at that, as though it's a read that I and the rest of the playerlist are supposed to be confident about? I can't analyze Paper's cases because they all originate from, like, unspoken past experiences/meta and it's not possible to say anything about Paper's alignment from them :/

Via continually insisting that people should throw their votes to the Clarinets wagon instead of his own feels off. Why should they not vote you? His repeating "just don't vote me" and stressing that self-preservation to that extent makes me surprised he wasn't NK'd. If I were scum and Via were not, I'd have elected to kill him because his end-of-the-day desperation looks like an attempt to preserve a town PR without claiming.

wrt the final wagon:

Via being on the wagon is justifiable. He was the first one on it and felt that Clarinets' case on him was bad.

SB being on the wagon is less obviously justifiable. His vote post has no explanation for it, so I can only assume consolidation. Same goes for Paper.

Elie hasn't been reading the game and his vote on the wagon isn't alignment-indicative.

SB looks like the most likely scum on the wagon because Paper and Elie consistently have been making brief/infrequent posts, but SB's reads and votes had been substantiated prior to the wagon.

---

Thoughts on Day 2

---

Cam dying points to Junko being probable scum. Cam's main push for D1 was Junko, and didn't case anyone else as hard for the rest of the day due to consolidation shenanigans.

Two decoy-type roles are unlikely to exist imo.

Now that I'm reading it a second time, Junko's voteswitch to Coby is sticks out to me because the Shin case that he's dropping for it isn't highly supported to begin with; Junko's first D2 vote considers none of his expressed D1 reads and is immediately replaced by what I consider to be an easy voteswitch on Coby, who isn't even particularly likely to be scum based on the brevity and predictability of his post.

##Vote: SB

I don't believe such similar roles would be in the game

This role-related reason is enough to override all of what you were thinking about SB for the length of D1...?

Lynch priority is Junko >>> SB > Refa (b/c Via slot) >>> Coby > Paper

TL;DR reasoning for the priority:

I agree with Cam's D1 case on Junko, and I believe that his flip highly incriminates Junko. Junko's Coby voteswitch is only slightly scummy.

I think that SB was the likeliest scum on the early Clarinets wagon due to Via's mutual vote being expressly justified and Paper/Elie having the precedent of extremely sparse explanations for their votes, and SB's claim is incongruous with Cam's flip.

Refa's content looks fine so far but I think that Via was probable scum based on the urgency of his late-D1 wagon-forming, and the fact that he was killed today despite appearing like he was trying to defend a PR.

Coby's vote is bad and brief. However, as I said above (somewhere...) this doesn't constitute a scumread on him.

Paper still isn't explaining why he thinks SB is town/scum and suddenly believes that the possibility of role discrepancy outweighs everything that his intuition/meta told him about SB from D1. This doesn't constitute a scumread either but it's getting to the point where I would really like to emphasize the difficulty of seeing the reasoning of Paper's votes.

##Vote: Junko

[Green Poet]

Refa's content looks fine so far but I think that Via was probable scum based on the urgency of his late-D1 wagon-forming, and the fact that he was not killed today despite appearing like he was trying to defend a PR.

ebwop

[Sunwoo]

GP, I understand that you retracted your scum read on Cam before you voted Via. That's not what I have a problem with. I don't understand why Quote was suddenly worse than everyone else present, since in this post you imply that you basically cased them over two posts/statements. How were those statements worse than what anyone else was doing.

The biggest problem I have is that you don't really seem to be pushing a case. Between the time when you did suspect Cam and unvoting him, your most notable contribution was arguing semantics with me and even when you voted Quote you made the vote and didn't really push them. Which is what I have a problem with, it felt like you voted them and were being passive with your vote more than trying to push it.