FE4 Advance - R.I.P.

[dondon151]

So uh, what's the point of having a gaiden chapter that has one player-controllable unit and is reliably 1-turned in a single move?

I mean, not even the FE8 prologue was this bad. That required at least 2 movements.

Edited June 12, 2010 by dondon151

[Phoenix Wright]

So uh, what's the point of having a gaiden chapter that has one player-controllable unit and is reliably 1-turned in a single move?

I mean, not even the FE8 prologue was this bad. That required at least 2 movements.

To use Eltosian, I guess. It's probably just a means of helping the story advance.

Edited June 12, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[AstraLunaSol]

So uh, what's the point of having a gaiden chapter that has one player-controllable unit and is reliably 1-turned in a single move?

I mean, not even the FE8 prologue was this bad. That required at least 2 movements.

Can't you change priority so you can't just put Elto in front and 1 turn them? That way they try to attack Elto's troops before him? Even though Elliot wants Elto dead.

[dondon151]

Well, look at the video. Turn sequence is player - enemy - NPC. The enemy units can never reach the NPC units on their first turn, while they can reach Eltosian if he moves within their range. Even if you switched that turn order, Eltosian is standing in a chokepoint. There's no way for the enemy units to get past him.

[Lord Glenn]

Part of the reason that it "worked" in vanilla FE4 was that the chokepoint wasn't only one tile wide. If the map was altered to make the chokepoint slightly wider and events were drafted to move the Cross Knight squad prior to the Player Phase, it might make it take longer than one turn. Just my input.

[riariadne]

Maybe you could make it so Eltshan can't reach that tile on turn 1 by putting him in the back of his squadron, or right in front of the castle?

[MasterJP28]

I don't know why people are complaining. The fact that you get to play as Elto is just beast! Mistoltin should have atleast 25 might and 80 Acc. And make the stat caps better than FE4.

[AstraLunaSol]

I don't know why people are complaining. The fact that you get to play as Elto is just beast! Mistoltin should have atleast 25 might and 80 Acc. And make the stat caps better than FE4.

I think the point is that 1 turning a chapter makes the chapter useless. Especially since you can just do it without any effort.

[dondon151]

Part of the reason that it "worked" in vanilla FE4 was that the chokepoint wasn't only one tile wide. If the map was altered to make the chokepoint slightly wider and events were drafted to move the Cross Knight squad prior to the Player Phase, it might make it take longer than one turn. Just my input.

That would still make for a rather poor chapter, though. Now, instead of having Eltosian solo the entire enemy army, it becomes a crapshoot as to how fast you can get it done. Random enemy cavs will target random NPC cavs, and there's very little that the player can do to control what happens because the only unit in the player's control is Eltosian.

Then, if you modified it so that the Cross Knights are player controlled, you can just have them retreat while Eltosian solos the entire enemy army again.

Probably the best modification would be to make the Cross Knights player controlled and the enemy army ignore attacking Eltosian so they don't all suicide into him.

Edited June 12, 2010 by dondon151

[BBM]

Or, the CKs are player controlled and Eltshan isn't. And the enemy cavs would still make the CKs their priority.

EDIT: To be fair, Eltshan also got lucky in the video. He was left with only 1 HP, and dodged two hits.

Edited June 12, 2010 by BigBangMeteor

[MasterJP28]

I think the point is that 1 turning a chapter makes the chapter useless. Especially since you can just do it without any effort.

The point of the chapter is to keep the story going. Would you rather have hime skip the scene? The best solustion is have Eltosian in the back middle not front middle. Other than that the chapter serves its perpose. Sounds familiear?

[AstraLunaSol]

The point of the chapter is to keep the story going. Would you rather have hime skip the scene? The best solustion is have Eltosian in the back middle not front middle. Other than that the chapter serves its perpose. Sounds familiear?

Well there's that, but if you don't change the priority, they'll suicide on Elto. =| And that would make it one fun and challenging chapter wouldn't it?

Hell, make it that you have to chase the enemies since in the original FE4 they try to capture Evans.

[MasterJP28]

Well there's that, but if you don't change the priority, they'll suicide on Elto. =| And that would make it one fun and challenging chapter wouldn't it?

Hell, make it that you have to chase the enemies since in the original FE4 they try to capture Evans.

Yes I agree with you on that. Make atleast one enemy, maybe Elliot, go after Evans castle. And the purpose of the video wasn't to get Elto killed, just to show the chapter, character, holy weapon, and some more. But from where they were a little while ago this is a huge step up and it's looking great!

[Lord Glenn]

That would still make for a rather poor chapter, though. Now, instead of having Eltosian solo the entire enemy army, it becomes a crapshoot as to how fast you can get it done. Random enemy cavs will target random NPC cavs, and there's very little that the player can do to control what happens because the only unit in the player's control is Eltosian.

Then, if you modified it so that the Cross Knights are player controlled, you can just have them retreat while Eltosian solos the entire enemy army again.

Probably the best modification would be to make the Cross Knights player controlled and the enemy army ignore attacking Eltosian so they don't all suicide into him.

If you're complaining about my suggestion, then you had better be complaining about the original situation in FE4, because it's damn similar, with the only exception being that you get to control Eltosian now.

And, you can't have it both ways: First, one turn is too fast; second, having no bearing over the amount of time is too slow. You kinda have to pick one or the other.

[Arch]

Alright. I've read over the comments here. I played around with some options and discovered that I can force the game to skip the Player's first phase if I want to. I have done this and I have also moved Eltosian to the back of his squadron. The chapter now takes a considerably greater amount of time. Plus you can Arena Abuse Eltosian for cash, which means you should take more time.

[dondon151]

Or, the CKs are player controlled and Eltshan isn't. And the enemy cavs would still make the CKs their priority.

EDIT: To be fair, Eltshan also got lucky in the video. He was left with only 1 HP, and dodged two hits.

I don't know what stats the enemy cavaliers have or how WT mechanics work in this game (or even what weapons they are using). But it's not a stretch to say that if Eltosian needs to be hit 11 times by 12 enemies to die, the chances of success are high.

If you're complaining about my suggestion, then you had better be complaining about the original situation in FE4, because it's damn similar, with the only exception being that you get to control Eltosian now.

Didn't the cutscene take place during the course of a chapter? Whatever the case, I don't see the point in this gaiden other than "whoo Eltosian kills things." If you wanted to make a cutscene, at least make it skippable. Furthermore, it's not like the player even gets anything out of this chapter. Are you going to reward him for doing a single move and then waiting 3 minutes for enemy phase to end? Do the NPC Cross Knights gain EXP and become usable later on?

And, you can't have it both ways: First, one turn is too fast; second, having no bearing over the amount of time is too slow. You kinda have to pick one or the other.

If your goal is simply to make a playable cutscene, then it's not worth it. If your goal is to take some creative liberty and make this gaiden a well-designed chapter, you could easily do that as well.

Alright. I've read over the comments here. I played around with some options and discovered that I can force the game to skip the Player's first phase if I want to. I have done this and I have also moved Eltosian to the back of his squadron. The chapter now takes a considerably greater amount of time. Plus you can Arena Abuse Eltosian for cash, which means you should take more time.

Like I said, this isn't exactly a desirable alternative. Now the outcome of the chapter is almost entirely out of the player's hands. It's like attempting to play 3-P of Radiant Dawn while using only Ike.

Edited June 13, 2010 by dondon151

[Arch]

You don't HAVE to do the chapter if you don't want to, it's entirely optional. I'm sorry that I can't please you but I'm really strapped for ideas on what I could do here. The chapter is mostly just fan service for those who always wanted to play as Eltosian. However, doing the chapter is advised as it unlocks something useful down the road. The real reward comes from reaching the chapter, which is a difficult thing to do (you have to race through Chapter 1).

I could spend a lot of time coming up with ideas and stretching this chapter out. Or I could leave it as is and focus on new, better content I've been planning. I would prefer the latter myself.

Edited June 13, 2010 by General Archibald

[Lord Glenn]

Didn't the cutscene take place during the course of a chapter? Whatever the case, I don't see the point in this gaiden other than "whoo Eltosian kills things." If you wanted to make a cutscene, at least make it skippable. Furthermore, it's not like the player even gets anything out of this chapter. Are you going to reward him for doing a single move and then waiting 3 minutes for enemy phase to end? Do the NPC Cross Knights gain EXP and become usable later on?

If your goal is simply to make a playable cutscene, then it's not worth it. If your goal is to take some creative liberty and make this gaiden a well-designed chapter, you could easily do that as well.

Like I said, this isn't exactly a desirable alternative. Now the outcome of the chapter is almost entirely out of the player's hands. It's like attempting to play 3-P of Radiant Dawn while using only Ike.

It wasn't a cutscene in FE4 to begin with. Elliot begins acting like the prick he is, Eltosian and the Cross Knights pop out and chase down Elliot and his squad during about two NPC phases during the course of the original chapter. Plus, given the scale of the FE4 maps (and the inability to reproduce them fully in the GBA engine), the event with Elliot makes a convenient segway to load up the next part of FE4!Ch. 1 to be played through (Marpha to Verdane) in FE4A.

As for the last part, even though it's directed at Arch, you keep flipflopping on your opinions. First, you complain about the chapter being easily one-turned, and then when a solution to extend the length of the Gaiden is proposed, you say that it takes the player out of control. So, basically, you need to make up your mind on what side you're defending here. Otherwise, IMHO, your argument means squat, since you can't seem to decide what you're arguing for.

[dondon151]

You don't HAVE to do the chapter if you don't want to, it's entirely optional. I'm sorry that I can't please some of you but I'm really strapped for ideas on what I could do here. The chapter is mostly just fan service for those who always wanted to play as Eltosian. However, doing the chapter is advised as it unlocks something useful down the road. The real reward comes from reaching the chapter, which is a difficult thing to do (you have to race through Chapter 1).

So... can't you just make this an unlockable cutscene? Although I suppose it would be strange if this part were omitted from the story because the player took too long. But then, think about it - what is the difference between watching Eltosian own Elliot and moving Eltosian and then watching him own Elliot? And then, if you intend for the player to only have control of 11% of all playable units on the field, why not just make Eltosian an NPC as well and give the player 0% of all playable units on the field?

It wasn't a cutscene in FE4 to begin with. Elliot begins acting like the prick he is, Eltosian and the Cross Knights pop out and chase down Elliot and his squad during about two NPC phases during the course of the original chapter. Plus, given the scale of the FE4 maps (and the inability to reproduce them fully in the GBA engine), the event with Elliot makes a convenient segway to load up the next part of FE4!Ch. 1 to be played through (Marpha to Verdane) in FE4A.

Hence what I said. "Didn't the cutscene take place during the course of a chapter?" If you're splitting up the chapter, why not just make this a straight cutscene instead of a series of map events?

As for the last part, even though it's directed at Arch, you keep flipflopping on your opinions. First, you complain about the chapter being easily one-turned, and then when a solution to extend the length of the Gaiden is proposed, you say that it takes the player out of control. So, basically, you need to make up your mind on what side you're defending here. Otherwise, IMHO, your argument means squat, since you can't seem to decide what you're arguing for.

I know exactly what I am arguing for. First, short chapters are pointless. Second, long chapters are undesirable if quite literally 10% of all events are within the player's control. If you have played RD before, you should know that completing 3-P within the max BEXP turncount limit on HM is incredibly dependant on luck (and if you didn't know that before, you know it now). The point of a game is to give the player as much control as possible over the outcome; otherwise, he might as well watch a cutscene for entertainment. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough, but I was in no way flipflopping on my opinions.

[Arch]

You complained it was too short. Now you complain it will be too long. I just cannot win with you.

Making it a standalone cutscene would require even more work and honestly, wouldn't be as fun as controlling Eltosian. Like I said, this is mostly a fan-service. If you don't want to waste your time playing the chapter then don't. It's optional. I'm not going out of my way to please you, there are far more constructive things I could be doing with my time. Sorry if I come across as rude, but this is utterly ridiculous. Who knew that doing a little fan-service would be such a pain?

[MasterJP28]

You complained it was too short. Now you complain it will be too long. I just cannot win with you.

Making it a standalone cutscene would require even more work and honestly, wouldn't be as fun as controlling Eltosian. Like I said, this is mostly a fan-service. If you don't want to waste your time playing the chapter then don't. It's optional. I'm not going out of my way to please you, there are far more constructive things I could be doing with my time. Sorry if I come across as rude, but this is utterly ridiculous. Who knew that doing a little fan-service would be such a pain?

Well you know you can't please everyone. I don't mind the chapter. I would probably take adventage of the arena and let the Cross Knights do all the work

[dondon151]

You complained it was too short. Now you complain it will be too long. I just cannot win with you.

To simplify my complaints as "too short" and "too long" is falsely representing what I said. I do not think that I could have dictated my opinion any more clearly. I understand that it is probably convenient for your purposes to put contradicting statements into my mouth, but you really have not accomplished anything other than becoming utterly exasperated by my criticism, coming from a gameplay point of view. I sincerely apologize that I am not an FE4 fanboy and that I do not happily lick your boot and wag my tail whenever you present us with a treat.

[Xiltas Crysten]

Seriously, dondon, why do you complain about the gaiden so much?

Even in the original game, it was just some kind of "side-story", nothing more.

And even then the enemy knights were one-rounded. Or two-rounded. Whatever.

The gaiden was just put in so this scene would also take place.

And it's unfair that you're so aggressive towards Arch, since he and the others are doing a great job, and sacrifice their freetime for something they don't even get payed for.

[dondon151]

Seriously, dondon, why do you complain about the gaiden so much?

Even in the original game, it was just some kind of "side-story", nothing more.

And even then the enemy knights were one-rounded. Or two-rounded. Whatever.

The gaiden was just put in so this scene would also take place.

Here are the things that are wrong with this statement:

In the original game, that scene was not some kind of "side-story" (although since you used it in quotes it could really mean anything). It showed that Eltosian opposed the intentions of the Agustrian noble family and it was one of the events leading up to the execution. Why does this event have to necessarily occur in a separate gaiden chapter? If you decide to make this event a gaiden chapter, then shouldn't you go the extra step and make it, you know, a cool chapter?

Those enemy units were all ORKO'd. It doesn't matter that Eltosian had to 2HKO, since with Mistoltin's huge skl bonus he would have 100 hit on all of them barring some sort of huge WTD penalty. 50 uses of Mistoltin is enough to kill 12 enemy units if all are 2HKO'd. The only way for Eltosian to fail is if he is hit 11 or 12 times for all 12 enemy units.

And it's unfair that you're so aggressive towards Arch, since he and the others are doing a great job, and sacrifice their freetime for something they don't even get payed for.

I'm sure your kindergarten teacher gave you an A+ on your report card for effort, but the truth is that no one is absolved from criticism just because he does something for (apparently) no reward. If Arch wants to share his creation with us, we'd expect that it'd damn well be a good product. If I volunteer to shelf books at a library and placed them with no apparent order, I am not free from admonishment just because I am working for free.

Edited June 13, 2010 by dondon151

[MasterJP28]

I'm sure your kindergarten teacher gave you an A+ on your report card for effort, but the truth is that no one is absolved from criticism just because he does something for (apparently) no reward. If Arch wants to share his creation with us, we'd expect that it'd damn well be a good product. If I volunteer to shelf books at a library and placed them with no apparent order, I am not free from admonishment just because I am working for free.

Thats where you mess up the comparison. He isn't placing the books out of order, rather they aren't all in the perfect position. It's a gaiden chapter to help Elto fans have the only use of Eltosian that they will ever get. Also the gainden is also to help advance the story and show this scene, which couldn't be done in chapter 1 so he made it a gaiden and OPTIONAL. Why are complaining about something as dumb as this?