Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

[Randa]

God I go out for a couple hours and the game just grinds to a halt.

Anyways I want cam to get through the second part of the game before I begin analyzing his content and I don't really disagree with any of the other content posted so far.

[Randa]

I feel so lonely nobody to argue with.

[Refa]

FTR, I agree that Clarinets post is really lame but I remember him doing the same thing in past town games and getting lynched D1 (and there wasn't much to go off of when he made that post) which is why I'm not inclined to jump down him for it. Would like to hear more from him, though.

Randa, thoughts on SB's case on you?

Don't really have any thoughts on anyone else other than a townread on Cam/Mitsuki (would be townreading SB but I'm not as confident in that) and Blitz should totally make some posts.

[Randa]

His points are valid so I don't really have any problems with it.

[Refa]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&cType=topic&cId=59300&search_author=Clarinets

Here's a citation for what I was talking about. I gotta learn to actually do that instead of vaguely saying "past games" because no one can follow along when I say that.

[Clarinets]

I feel so lonely nobody to argue with.

This reminds me of that line in The Shining, haha. I can't remember the exact words of it, though...

I'm going to read through and make a post now.

[Randa]

As lon as I'm jack Nicholson I'm fine with that.

[CT075]

oh god i fell asleep and lost the post i was working on

I'LL GET ON THAT ASAP

[Clarinets]

hey look the quotes broke

@SB: I hope to contribute significantly to the game later on, when scum post. Stay tuned.

It'd be pretty hypocritical for me to argue against the current cases when I'm asking people not to do the same for me and it wouldn't let the game advance, but it's worth mentioning that I have specific reasons to disagree with all of the cases presented so far, regardless of my reads on said slots. I'll talk about those later if people have a wagon at deadline, or before if I see it fit.

@Mancer: We're not wasting time rolespeccing, we're using rolespeccing to engage in discussion and decide one of the important parts of the game. Most people who rolespecced don't/didn't have reads at the time either. The fact that giving each role to someone different is a hard decision to make with no clear optimal results is not a valid reason to avoid discussing it. We can optimize results, at least to an extent, if we talk about what to do.

@Clarinets: If you want to hold against someone the fact that it was pointed out that everyone was Kirby you should hold it against me, since I am the one who suggested everyone could be Kirby first.

I suppose. But Izhuark seemed certain that Mafia was entirely Kirbys in addition to Town so it seemed odd to me. Yours, meanwhile, was just an assumption.

I need to vote. Please say if I do it wrong:

##Vote: Izhuark

You did it correctly. What are your thoughts on the rolespeccing or any of the other slots?

I highly doubt that piling on Izhuark and accidentally hammering is a good idea. While I agree that casing Kirsche was sketchy, I also think that 5 votes and not being even 24 hours in is a bad combination when all it takes is 8 to hammer.

I'd be for lynching eventually or even putting pressure on, but 6 votes counting mine isn't a good idea yet.

No one but Izhuark has even done anything yet anyway tbh.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

This post resembles the infamous Epicmafia noob!Town play, though that's live and not on a forum. Still, I think the comparison is legitimate.

Lynch Blitz. I want EIMM to start already.

inb4 Blitz is SK

Arf... this game is taking the wrong direction for me, if it's continue like this. The hell to those old mafia habits to say "bah, rolespec is bad don't do it because it take away from actual scumreads." In a game were we have the freaking power to distribute ourselves the setup. If scum is lynched and don't follow the list if will give us more info depending on what he choose and unless the other scum are dumb everyone one else will follow it.

Yes there were no conviction in my vote on kirsche and no it was not forced, there were just no content at that time and for me, in this game, voting someone that just tried to help us rolespeccing was bad. So unless i'm that bad at mafia, i know that ED1 i should vote on the one that seem the most suspicious to me and to that point someone that vote on someone else without any point nor scumread seemed scummy for me.

His defense of the kirsche vote feels way forced to me. His first sentence of justifying it is really awkward and isn't even accurate to what kirsche was doing. The second sentence of justifying it is just really fluffy and hand-holdy (for lack of a better word) and feels kind of unnecessary. I liked his defense of rolespeccing, though.

##Unvote

Left my RVS vote on Izhuark because I didn't have any scumreads and figured it'd be better of pressuring a slot that had votes on it rather than doing nothing.

##Vote: Freyjadour

Something about his last post bothers me. It's not just the white knighting, but rather it comes across as...insincere. It feels like he decided to look at the thread, noticed Izhuark had a bunch of votes (despite never having talked about him before, which is bad if he was scumreading Izhuark) and decided to complain about them.

Why did you feel the need to explain keeping your vote on Izhuark? It feels unnecessary and needlessly defensive to mention it like that.

I'd have to look back at it, but I believe there were only 6-8 posts in-between his last post and the complaints of the Izhuark wagon. Two or three of them were devoted to voting/casing Izhuark. I think it's fair enough that he only mentioned them.

The bolded is more important than people probably realize. Vig needs to be given in one of the first 3 roles in my opinion. It needs to be given to the best townish players. Not necessarily the towniest. The towniest player may not fully utilize the roll which is why I believe it should be one the best towny player. I'll go more in depth on why I think the shot should be expended early in a minute.

Sorry can you just explain the izuhark read a bit, is a legit read if so is it just because of the role pm thing, cause I'm not seeing anything towny or scummy about him ATM.

See this is why i enjoy doing role spec as anti-town, it doesn't say anything about alignment and you don't have to commit to reads. It just creates the appearance of content. With that being said this post is non-indicative of alignment it's just not useful. When I don't care earlier I didn't mean I don't care about whether or not we rolespec. I meant I don't care who was what roles. We don't need to talk about this and it should be obvious why. There's a role that goes to the scummiest person three roles focused on the towniest people and the rest aren't as important. In a 15 person game you should have a 4-6-4 set of reads. This means about half the game is gonna be closer to neutral then anything else. Reason is we know we have a confirmed 4 anti-town, every person except scum know they are town. 4 town reads means that if you're right you have endgame control. You're scum reads should be who you're willing to lynch that phase. It can be less than, but if it's only 1 or 2 people it's bad. The town reads should increase the less anti-town there is in the game. The longer the game goes the less neutral reads you should have but this early in the game the majority of players should be neutral. So why am I wasting time explains vote and read theory? Because it gets my point across. If we have solid reads on only half the game why are speculating how we're gonna assign every role. Any post about role spec should be nothing more than the roles we can't under any circumstances let scum have and which ones we want on scum. In addition it comes down to each players opinions and reads as to who is scummy and who is not. For example let's say proto has mitsuki as his top town read, but five people have a minor scum read on her. Who gets to decide what proto gives mitsuki, it's proto so mitsuki would get a towny role but this now makes five people read proto as scum cause he didn't listen to them but stuck to his read. You see the problem here. We're putting people in potential lose-lose situations. If proto gives mitsuki a scum role he goes against his read which is scummy, if he gives her a town role he's disobeying the group and that's scummy, regardless proto looks scummy.

tl;dr: we don't and shouldn't be rolespecing right now.

Bolded is the point I was referring to earlier when I commenting about Vig. If mafia wins with parity, which it is confirmed they do, then there's no reason to hold the shot. Since we don't have to hold it we want to expended it early. The reason is the Vig is decided public ally so mafia's probably gonna just kill him.

There is one bad way to get town out of rvs and that's fake a cop result of scum and get doc lynched day 1. Also what is worst than anti-town? You say it's at least anti-town but the entire point is to kill anti-town. There's really nothing worse.

I actually really want the answer to bolded. In addition day 1 scum hunting is more important then day 1 role spec IMO. See the above for the explanation.

And this is why role spec is useless. I don't agree at all that bodyguard should be given to town. It should be given to scum as it makes one of the scum not have a role. Me disagreeing doesn't give me any reads though it just means I disagree which doesn't help with reads at all.

I don't really like this post. The points about blitz feel forced. It would be fine if he made the points immediately after blitz posted but because blitz stopped posting shortly after he proposed role-speccing, which means him asking somebody else to do it was probably due to time constraints, which mancer, a veteran mafia player, should recognize and acknowledge during his read. In addition the second point is useless and not even really a point. It actually make no sense to me. I mean what was the point of saying he makes a good point but it should be obvious. If it's obvious it's not really a good point cause it doesn't contribute to the conversation or the game. If it's good then it stimulates conversation or is something people might've missed. It can't be both, which is kinda why the whole blitz read seems forced.

We have very different opinions on what the word brilliant means. Because, ignoring the fact I don't think we need role-spec in the game ATM, I didn't find anything really impressive about proto's post it was pretty much just stuff people should already know and understand, another reason rolespec isn't helpful, and it doesn't add anything to the game.

The izuhark vote is fine for the time it was made, I consider it the actual start of the wagon because he only had two votes on him at the time and then it somehow jumped to 5 in the blink of an eye. It's the same points other's have made but given the lack of content in thread that's fine IMO. But I feel like his blitz read had more conviction to it than his izuhark read, and his izuhark vote was more to not stand out early.

With all that being said

##Unvote

##Vote: Mancer

Making this part of the post really makes me wish I took notes on the game, but most of it is about anti-rolespeccing anyways.

I agree that we shouldn't be spending so much time rolespeccing. About the first point of Mancer's case, he probably cased that because Blitz specifically said that he didn't want to because he wanted to be lazy (probably paraphrasing, but he did say he was feeling lazy or something like that) which he took seriously. Still weak, but somewhat justified. I agree with your second point, though. His comments about Blitz overall feel kind of fence-sitty and weak.

##Vote: Freyjadour

I had the same sort of feeling as Refa, and I agree with his point. In my case I'm more bothered by the fact that Freyjadour just accepts that Izhuark could either be lynched or not at deadline, and he mentions he'd be ok with the lynch, but he doesn't give his thoughts on him.

The thing that I find the most scummy about him, though, is how he's posting a lot of useless stuff and repeating things. The few original things he's posted aren't good, either, which doesn't help him. I was wondering if he was just a new player from another community who felt the need to post about that stuff because he didn't know how stuff works at SF mafia, I didn't realize that was Freyjadour until Refa voted for him. So it feels like he's just repeating stuff for the sake of seeming contributing.

I'll talk about Izhuark in my next post.

I agree that he's been doing this, but considering how new of a player he is I don't think it's particularly alignment-telling.

Uh.

I think Proto's giant list post in page 2 is basically a whole lot of nothing, all of it is coming off as "no duh" kind of material. But that said, I am not reading it as scummy. I wouldn't call it trying too hard, just not being good at deciding what's important and what is not. And from my previous experiences playing with Proto, he has a tendency to role- or character-spec a lot anyway.

Don't like Izuhark's vote on kirsche at all. Why is kirsche's post scummy? Your initial vote on kirsche just sounds like you think he doesn't want to "assign roles smartly", but that's according to your definition of assigning roles smartly. Why is he scum and not just someone with a different opinion? I don't feel great about Izuhark at this juncture, but I also don't like how fast the wagon on him built up. So I feel like I need to look at his wagon again before voting here.

Something about Clarinet's post is bothering me. It feels like it has too much padding in it, and he doesn't seem to explain reasons for the reads he has too much. Why is Mancer's post genuine? Why quote a giant SB-post if you're going to say you don't know what to make of it and just agree on a minor Mitsuki point? I'm not seeing a lot of original reasoning here and a lot of filler posts that don't add anything at all, definitely not happy about this.

Michelaar, no. And do you have any other opinions on people who are not Izuhark?

Freyjadour, what the fuck are you doing? Not even 24 hours has passed in the game, why are you acting like lynching Izuhark is a foregone conclusion because "he's the only one who's done anything"? IT'S BEEN LESS THAN 24 HOURS IN A 72 HOUR PHASE SO WHY. If you don't like the votes on Izhuark, then why? Do you think he's townie? If so, why? Do you think the wagon just built up too fast? Seriously, explain your thought process or else we're going to end up with a repeat of Realm of Mirrors.

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets

Needs more justification and original explanation of his reasonings. Reads like he's trying to seem like doing more than he really is. More confident about Clarinets than Freyjadour, if only because Freyjadour's play is cuckoo.

I exactly think the wagon's formed too soon. Trying to make a choice on someone within 24 hours is a mistake, and Izhuark had 5 votes out of 8.

I don't think Izhuark made a good choice by trying to case Kirsche this early, but I also think that it doesn't mean that he's automatically scum. A few players haven't even posted yet. That's also what I meant by "did something" in that he was the only one forming a case with all of the rolespec happening. It's important to figure rolespec out, but it doesn't mean everything else should be obscured.

I also think that trying to arrange a role list is easily failed. It can lead to a scum giving the worst role to the towniest player first. If they gave the best role immediately, it could also lead to mistrust.

I messed up the quotes again so both Sunwoo's and Ms. Bunch's posts will be commented on here.

As easy to discredit this as it may be considering Sunwoo's case on me, his post doesn't actually have a lot of original content outside of the aforementioned case on me. Sure, he asks a few questions, but that's about it. I'll work on explaining my thoughts better, though. I haven't been trying hard enough to do that so far.

About Ms. Bunch's post, that's not what we're doing lol. We're not rushing to make a choice, we wouldn't decide a lynch less than 24 hours into ED1. You have a decent point in your second paragraph but kirsche did the same thing. What do you think about that?

Wow this game started and I just realized I never even read this rule

I wouldn't have signed up for this had I noticed that this was the premise.

I'll also admit that I've read jack diddly thus far but feel like posting to at least acknowledge that i noticed this game starting up

haha, Elieson

As a response to who I think wagoned, mainly Clarinets. It didn't have much substance behind it and it came after Refa and SB already had votes upon Izhuark.

I think Randa's case on me was created based on flat out misreading what I said. It arguably could be considered scummy tbh, because it could count as twisting words. In all, it was some flimsy reasoning that relied on me actually saying that it was a good idea to case Kirsche, and it didn't take much effort to claim.

##Unvote

##Vote: Randa

Judging by your wording in the first sentence of this case on Randa, you don't really support this read at all. This is incredibly forced and bad. It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself Randa is scum, what with 'arguably could be considered scummy tbh'. That line is awkward and really hesitant.

Onwards to page 5-6!

[Clarinets]

Actually, I'm tired. I'll try to make a post in the morning but it won't be very detailed. I'll make a post in 18-19 hours at the latest.

[CT075]

I really like this post, wouldsheep/10. This one, on the other hand, I really don't. It's a gigantic post about the evils of rolespec despite the fact that nobody was really doing it any more and there are more important things to talk about. The vote on Mancer at the end just looks tacked on. What about the rest of the wagon? "The Izhuark vote is fine", then proceeds to vote him over it???

I actually am not as huge a fan of this post as I was when I first read it; the logic is fine but i feel like it looks like it's saying more than it is. Like, can I have some examples of what exactly you're talking about? I feel like I'm psyching myself out when it comes to Mitsuki. It's like the Prims factor, I have no idea what to look for.

These two make an interesting pairing. I don't like Freyja's post because it doesn't address the core issue with his initial vote and continues to dodge the fact that there are players on the izu wagon. At the same time, Randa immediately jumps on him for a pretty graspy reason. I disagree with Refa when it comes to "scumslips don't exist", but I also don't think this was really a scumslip.

Immediately followed up by Freyja's best inactive!me impression with a waddayaknowit OMGUS. Like, come on, you didn't even try. "He's scummy because he's voting me for a bad reason". "It could arguably count as scummy..." - there's no conviction here whatsoever! What happened to your read on Izhuark? Why are the only two people that matter the current wagon target and the person attacking you?

This is a fair enough justification from Mitsuki, although I don't quite see why it didn't need to be said immediately. It's enough for what I was looking for, I suppose? Still wary.

##unvote

This is... okay, I suppose. Except it's apparently actually a reaction test.

##Vote: Randa

Randa: What, exactly were you looking for in his reaction, and what would it have meant? "Making content" is a vague blanket term.

my head hurts too much to get into clarinets' last quotewall

[Refa]

Too lazy to quote it but I was being open WRT my thought process for leaving my vote on him as opposed to making an empty unvote.

Need to go through Cam and your post tomorrow when my attention span gauge has refilled.

[Mitsuki]

I've reconsidered Freyjadour and, while I don't feel as strongly as I first did, I don't see his replies to the cases on him as telling, just something he could do as either alignment. Still scumreading him.

Nothing else new in this post, I'm just replying to people:

@Clarinets: I absolutely recommend you to just include the relevant parts you comment on later in the quotes you post, and erase everything else. Otherwise it's hard to notice what you're actually talking about with regards to the post, which nullifies the usefulness of using quotes.

this mitsuki post bugs me for reasons I can't pin down. first of all, i don't feel that "it'd be hypocritical for me to not do X" is a valid reason to not do X if X is a town thing to do (where X in this case is "defending people you don't want lynched"). there are supposedly "specific reasons regardless of reads" here that intrigue me. do you know something we don't? nobody should have any non-factional role information yet, so the straightforward conclusion is that you are non-town.

The specific reasons I mentioned are me reading the cases and not agreeing with the logic, for reasons more or less separate from my actual reads (I am townreading both Proto and Izhuark, and they were part of the people being cased).

The thing is, X is not a town thing to do either, as I mentioned. I don't think it's really productive to shoot down cases on ED1, even if I absolutely disagree with them. It will just stop things from happening, and that will lead to less content and less derivative reads. I will deal with the cases I don't like later on, when it's actually useful to getting the lynch I want (or when people ask me what I think about a certain person).

I actually am not as huge a fan of this post as I was when I first read it; the logic is fine but i feel like it looks like it's saying more than it is. Like, can I have some examples of what exactly you're talking about?

I actually have no idea of what you're asking me to talk about, please specify.

[Prims]

Votals 1.2

Izhuark (3): MancerNecro, Clarinets, Michelaar

Ms. Bunch (3): Refa, Mitsuki, Randa

Randa (3): Ms. Bunch, SB, Cam

Clarinets (1): Boron

kirsche (1): Izhuark

Proto (1): kirsche

Randa (1): Blitz

Not voting (2): Elieson, Proto

There are approximately 38 hours and 6 minutes until phase end.

Blitz has been prodded.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Prims

[Prims]

I realized I forgot this in the OP, by the way, so: in the case of two mafia factions, the factions will be named the Mafia and the Scum. (As opposed to the Town.)

E: Also when I said the Empowerer can let people bypass the ascetic earlier I forgot to mention it works on the JoAT's safeguard too. (Not the commute though.) This also means the bodyguard can bypass these roles.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Prims

[solrocknroll]

I've been reading but I have school. I'll probably make an update post during my lunch period today.

As a whole, I can probably say that my vote on Randa was made based on how he misinterpreted my words. However, since he said that he was trying to prod me for new content, I'm slightly confused? Why would you misread something and ask for content instead of just inquiring? It means that he wanted new content out of me even while casing me, or he purposefully misinterpreted what I said for the sake of prodding.

[Clarinets]

I don't have enough time to create another post, but:

@Clarinets: I absolutely recommend you to just include the relevant parts you comment on later in the quotes you post, and erase everything else. Otherwise it's hard to notice what you're actually talking about with regards to the post, which nullifies the usefulness of using quotes.

Alright, I'll do that.

[Randa]

I really like this post, wouldsheep/10. This one, on the other hand, I really don't. It's a gigantic post about the evils of rolespec despite the fact that nobody was really doing it any more and there are more important things to talk about. The vote on Mancer at the end just looks tacked on. What about the rest of the wagon? "The Izhuark vote is fine", then proceeds to vote him over it???I actually am not as huge a fan of this post as I was when I first read it; the logic is fine but i feel like it looks like it's saying more than it is. Like, can I have some examples of what exactly you're talking about? I feel like I'm psyching myself out when it comes to Mitsuki. It's like the Prims factor, I have no idea what to look for.These two make an interesting pairing. I don't like Freyja's post because it doesn't address the core issue with his initial vote and continues to dodge the fact that there are players on the izu wagon. At the same time, Randa immediately jumps on him for a pretty graspy reason. I disagree with Refa when it comes to "scumslips don't exist", but I also don't think this was really a scumslip.Immediately followed up by Freyja's best inactive!me impression with a waddayaknowit OMGUS. Like, come on, you didn't even try. "He's scummy because he's voting me for a bad reason". "It could arguably count as scummy..." - there's no conviction here whatsoever! What happened to your read on Izhuark? Why are the only two people that matter the current wagon target and the person attacking you?This is a fair enough justification from Mitsuki, although I don't quite see why it didn't need to be said immediately. It's enough for what I was looking for, I suppose? Still wary.##unvoteThis is... okay, I suppose. Except it's apparently actually a reaction test.##Vote: RandaRanda: What, exactly were you looking for in his reaction, and what would it have meant? "Making content" is a vague blanket term.my head hurts too much to get into clarinets' last quotewall

Generally I was looking to see three things with the vote.

The first is the obvious did he mispeak and mean the case was bad and then have him elaborate on his kirsche and izuhark reads. I stated this one earlier but this part wasn't the actual reaction test this was just to see if he made a mistake and then whether or not he would be willing to give his opinion in greater detail about the situation, FYI he didn't, hasn't and probably won't do this one. His response rather than clarifying that he mispoke or that his wording was wrong and that he meant something else was to say I'm misinterpreting his wording and misrepresenting him. Which isn't the case in the first place and doesn't answer the question.

The second thing I was looking for was pretty simple and gets closer to the reaction test itself, when most people are cases and voted against especially day 1 they have the tendency to go and look through the other persons content to see if they can find flaws and inconsistencies to invalidate the case. Now my thought process at the time is as follows,

"His post seems off"

"He doesn't have a lot of content about anything and what content he has isn't very good"

"I made a large post recently"

"I'm not a good player so there's bound to be mistakes and problems with it"

"Let's see if I can get him to actually post some in depth content about my post or play in general"

Unfortunately he give any in depth content or actual content at all just an OMGUS and has proceeded to tunell since.

The third part isn't so much focused on him as it is the game in general, did people agree with me about his wording(from the sounds of it no) and why or why not? So where as the first two are for actual scum hunting purposes this part was more to help me become a better player by seeing and understanding other people's opinions thoughts and explanations, hence why I was so focused on hearing refa's explanation for disagreeing with me.

I apologize if any of this is confusing I am still a bit rusty and have no problem clarifying what I said.

I've been reading but I have school. I'll probably make an update post during my lunch period today.

As a whole, I can probably say that my vote on Randa was made based on how he misinterpreted my words. However, since he said that he was trying to prod me for new content, I'm slightly confused? Why would you misread something and ask for content instead of just inquiring? It means that he wanted new content out of me even while casing me, or he purposefully misinterpreted what I said for the sake of prodding.

I'm not misinterpreting what you said, I'm not misrepresenting you. What you said was scummy, sorry that's all there is to it. I don't know why you keep saying I'm trying to misrepresent you when I haven't once done so. You said you didn't think it was a good idea to case kirsche, you didn't say that the case was weak, you didn't say why you thought his case was bad, you didn't say you thought there wasn't enough to make a solid case or argument. You just said you didn't think it was a good idea which IMO is scummy. Stop acting liking that's not what you said, I have not once lied about what you said so stop its getting annoying.

You have plenty of material to make a real case, you have to people to agree with on the case, you don't even have to actually think you can sheep, but at the very least stop acting like im twisting your words. You can disagree with the read I got from it sure. There's no problem with that. You're not even doing that your trying to discredit my case without using actual facts or reasons.

[MancerNecro]

Urgh, I'm sorry to say that I have not been reading the thread today and have been busy outside...

I'll get around to making a post soon once I have enough of free time.

[Blitz]

Okay, so, I have to get to work in 5 mins and just making a stupid post before I get to it.

First of all, role specs again, I think the 3 mystery roles are some form of redirector (as in bus driver or hijacker), a anytime cop use and a hooker. I believe these 3 roles must be given to town and these should be given to the townies. Once I get some free time today, I will make a priority list of all the roles to give to town and scum and people can complain if they think stuff needs to be changed. The roles should be given out by the people based on their own reads, so, that we can hold the person accountable if they didn't comply their own reads. On top of that, this game, we should out all town reads on D1, so that it helps the role distribution process.

Now, for the prod dodge...

@Mitsuki, you said somewhere that town would only confirm you had a Kirby, but what Izhuark said was that we were all Kirby. Now, I got a Kirby too, but, it felt slightly wrong to me that he said we were all Kirbys. I mean, it is more likely that Prims is to tell the scumteam everyone is a Kirby for him to know, right?

@Izhuark, what do you think of the current game?

I agree with the reads on Proto and that he always does rolespecs and he is probably town too, because of his reaction, which someone mentioned. I need to leave...

[Izhuark]

I'm very disappointed that most of the game decided that rolespec serve nothing when i think it do really matter but it will serve nothing to complain about it the whole game. (i think i will do the list that mitsuki did, tough a bit later)

I must admit that the whole ms. Bunch vs randa argument is really confusing me. My guts feeling are telling me that randa posting style seem weird but on the other hand it's true that ms. Bunch have no content until know so it's really hard to judge.

I think most people (including me) should post more content so we can have other point of view than this case that seem to turn around on itself without producing anything except overly convuloted and long post from randa that could very well hide scum intention.

[Randa]

This one, on the other hand, I really don't. It's a gigantic post about the evils of rolespec despite the fact that nobody was really doing it any more and there are more important things to talk about. The vote on Mancer at the end just looks tacked on. What about the rest of the wagon? "The Izhuark vote is fine", then proceeds to vote him over it???

sorry didn't notice this part earlier my bad. anyways the mancer vote had very little to do with the izuhark vote itself. the problem i have is when i compare his cases on izuhark and blitz, his blitz case feels like it had more conviction to it, granted thats not saying much i do think the case itself seems forced but the izuhark case is just sheeping what other people said. now the way i formatted that post was actually kinda bad, because i wound up looking at all three parts in a vacuum ignoring the context of the rest of the post until the last line in the izuhark paragraph. basically what im saying is if the izuhark vote existed on its own without the blurb about blitz in the same post above, which is how wound up writing that post, then it was fine. now when i said the vote was fine i did specify given the time it was made. if it was made as the 4th or 5th vote on the wagon i wouldve had a problem with it, but like i said i think that truly started the wagon. now put in the context of the post the izuhark vote feels weaker, predominately because he seems to have more conviction in his blitz read.

as for the rest of the wagon, i didn't, still kinda don't, feel like reading through a quote wall to see what clarinets justification is for his vote i will get around to it soon, ie during my next class when im bored, and michelaar looks like normal newb town imo.

[Randa]

I'm very disappointed that most of the game decided that rolespec serve nothing when i think it do really matter but it will serve nothing to complain about it the whole game. (i think i will do the list that mitsuki did, tough a bit later)

I must admit that the whole ms. Bunch vs randa argument is really confusing me. My guts feeling are telling me that randa posting style seem weird but on the other hand it's true that ms. Bunch have no content until know so it's really hard to judge.

I think most people (including me) should post more content so we can have other point of view than this case that seem to turn around on itself without producing anything except overly convuloted and long post from randa that could very well hide scum intention.

there not convuluted there literally just whats going through my head.

[Izhuark]

Well for someone like me there are at least.

I will do a real post soon, just the time to read the topic again.

[Refa]

@Prims

You need to fix the votals. Mitsuki and I voted for Freyjadour, and I think there were some other mistakes but I don't remember so they must not be important.

Can't speak for other people but the reason I'm not posting more content is because 1) I'm having a hard time scumreading people (I want Freyjadour lynched, still feeling mixed on Randa but wouldn't want to lynch him, and I barely have any townreads) and 2) I just want my role already. I should probably go through these last few posts though.

PEDit Actually would be cool with lynching Clarinets (maybe over Freyjadour since he's been more active, also because I'm kind of uncomfortable w/voting Freyjadour since...I'm not sure why actually). He's just responding to the points in a vacuum, but doesn't actually have a consistent thought process (e.g. this person is scum, this person is town, I'm replying to these posts with that mindset). Also I hate his posting style, which is an A+ reason to lynch someone in its own right. Check his ISO from uh some past game, he has more definite opinions there than here (didn't bother me with his first post because literally nothing had happened but it's more egregious with his second).

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets