Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

[Refa]

Oh yeah, another thing that's bothering me is that I feel like Prims would make at least one of Elie/Kirsche/me/SB/Boron scum just because you want at least someone who's good at playing scum as scum (uh no offence to everyone else) but I'm not really scumreading any of them and it's the worst. Definitely people I'd scan as a Comparison Cop TBH.

[CT075]

Oh yeah, another thing that's bothering me is that I feel like Prims would make at least one of Elie/Kirsche/me/SB/Boron scum just because you want at least someone who's good at playing scum as scum (uh no offence to everyone else) but I'm not really scumreading any of them and it's the worst. Definitely people I'd scan as a Comparison Cop TBH.

im offended

ill have you know i survived to day 2 as scum once!

[Michelaar]

There is actually much discussion. I should join

[CT075]

The specific reasons I mentioned are me reading the cases and not agreeing with the logic, for reasons more or less separate from my actual reads (I am townreading both Proto and Izhuark, and they were part of the people being cased).

The thing is, X is not a town thing to do either, as I mentioned. I don't think it's really productive to shoot down cases on ED1, even if I absolutely disagree with them. It will just stop things from happening, and that will lead to less content and less derivative reads. I will deal with the cases I don't like later on, when it's actually useful to getting the lynch I want (or when people ask me what I think about a certain person).

i disagree, but fine

personally i think poking at logic is a great way to get derivative reads

I actually have no idea of what you're asking me to talk about, please specify.

i don't disagree with your assertion that a lot of freyja's posts are empty but i'm curious as to which posts exactly you think are super bad

Generally I was looking to see three things with the vote.

The first is the obvious did he mispeak and mean the case was bad and then have him elaborate on his kirsche and izuhark reads. I stated this one earlier but this part wasn't the actual reaction test this was just to see if he made a mistake and then whether or not he would be willing to give his opinion in greater detail about the situation, FYI he didn't, hasn't and probably won't do this one. His response rather than clarifying that he mispoke or that his wording was wrong and that he meant something else was to say I'm misinterpreting his wording and misrepresenting him. Which isn't the case in the first place and doesn't answer the question.

this is fine

The second thing I was looking for was pretty simple and gets closer to the reaction test itself, when most people are cases and voted against especially day 1 they have the tendency to go and look through the other persons content to see if they can find flaws and inconsistencies to invalidate the case. Now my thought process at the time is as follows,

"His post seems off"

"He doesn't have a lot of content about anything and what content he has isn't very good"

"I made a large post recently"

"I'm not a good player so there's bound to be mistakes and problems with it"

"Let's see if I can get him to actually post some in depth content about my post or play in general"

Unfortunately he give any in depth content or actual content at all just an OMGUS and has proceeded to tunell since.

so you were baiting him into voting you? why??? what would him posting not-an-OMGUS have meant?

i'll be honest i can't really follow what you're saying

The third part isn't so much focused on him as it is the game in general, did people agree with me about his wording(from the sounds of it no) and why or why not? So where as the first two are for actual scum hunting purposes this part was more to help me become a better player by seeing and understanding other people's opinions thoughts and explanations, hence why I was so focused on hearing refa's explanation for disagreeing with me.

uh okay

I'm not misinterpreting what you said, I'm not misrepresenting you. What you said was scummy, sorry that's all there is to it. I don't know why you keep saying I'm trying to misrepresent you when I haven't once done so. You said you didn't think it was a good idea to case kirsche, you didn't say that the case was weak, you didn't say why you thought his case was bad, you didn't say you thought there wasn't enough to make a solid case or argument. You just said you didn't think it was a good idea which IMO is scummy. Stop acting liking that's not what you said, I have not once lied about what you said so stop its getting annoying.

if what he said was scummy without question, why do you need him to clarify/post real content?

@Mitsuki, you said somewhere that town would only confirm you had a Kirby, but what Izhuark said was that we were all Kirby. Now, I got a Kirby too, but, it felt slightly wrong to me that he said we were all Kirbys. I mean, it is more likely that Prims is to tell the scumteam everyone is a Kirby for him to know, right?

i don't like this; it's either mod-meta (at best) or a slip (at worst).

I'm very disappointed that most of the game decided that rolespec serve nothing when i think it do really matter but it will serve nothing to complain about it the whole game. (i think i will do the list that mitsuki did, tough a bit later)

do you think that people are scum for not participating in the role spec

I must admit that the whole ms. Bunch vs randa argument is really confusing me. My guts feeling are telling me that randa posting style seem weird but on the other hand it's true that ms. Bunch have no content until know so it's really hard to judge.

does "weird" = "scum"?

I think most people (including me) should post more content so we can have other point of view than this case that seem to turn around on itself without producing anything except overly convuloted and long post from randa that could very well hide scum intention.

what???

Can't speak for other people but the reason I'm not posting more content is because 1) I'm having a hard time scumreading people (I want Freyjadour lynched, still feeling mixed on Randa but wouldn't want to lynch him, and I barely have any townreads)

i mean is it not a good idea to make people talk solely so you can scumread people?

and 2) I just want my role already.

same

PEDit Actually would be cool with lynching Clarinets (maybe over Freyjadour since he's been more active, also because I'm kind of uncomfortable w/voting Freyjadour since...I'm not sure why actually). He's just responding to the points in a vacuum, but doesn't actually have a consistent thought process (e.g. this person is scum, this person is town, I'm replying to these posts with that mindset). Also I hate his posting style, which is an A+ reason to lynch someone in its own right. Check his ISO from uh some past game, he has more definite opinions there than here (didn't bother me with his first post because literally nothing had happened but it's more egregious with his second).

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets

would sheep 10/10

[Sunwoo]

I slammed my hand against a bed post really hard last night. Typing is a bitch.

@Clarinets: I know Mitsuki already said this, but I will say it again. You REALLY need to trim down your quotes to only the relevant parts, it's very annoying to look at. Also, what are your actual opinions on people right now? What is your stance on Freyjadour and Randa, and who do you think is scum if either of them?

And considering a lot of shit happened between my last post and the giant one you quoted, why is having some borrowed content a bad thing anyway, as long as I'm explaining my own justifications for my own stance on those points instead of merely reiterating someone else's? Not to mention, how am I supposed to get any clarifications for things I need to hear without questions? By your own admission, I even had some original content -- the case on you. This looks like you're just looking for reasons to be suspicious of me.

SB, you said in your most recent post that you'd sheep Refa's vote on Freyjadour, but you're also voting Randa. Considering that Randa and Freyjadour seem to be going at each other, do you think one or both of them are scum?

Randa: do you still find Mancer scummy, because I didn't notice until someone else mentioned it that you dropped your vote on him without much fanfare to go for Freyjadour. Why is what Freyjadour was doing at the time you voted him more suspicious than what Mancer had? If anything, that vote switch makes Randa look a bit shady. Also, what do you think about the rest of the game right now? I feel like you've had a bit too much tunnel vision on Freyjadour, and I can't tell what you think about anyone who is not Mancer or Freyjadour, which isn't good.

I'm cool with Refa. Nothing he's done really catches my attention in a negative manner. But Refa, what exactly do you think about Randa right now?

Proto and kirsche really need to come back and do things. Proto has what basically amounts to a whole lot of nothing, and I was fine with kirsche's vote on Proto but the game has progressed now.

Michelaar: I know you're new, but do you have ANY opinions at all?

[CT075]

oh yeah i also am a fan of lynching inactives more this phase of this game than any other so we don't have to wait as long for role distribution #10/10reasoningsheepme

[Izhuark]

Why is he scum and not just someone with a different opinion?

At that time there was no content an i didn't understood his way of thinking hence the vote to give a little pressure to my case and force him to develop. I also didn't say he was obligatory scum but at that time i tought his comportement was anti-town. What i mean by that is that i think that

His defense of the kirsche vote feels way forced to me. His first sentence of justifying it is really awkward and isn't even accurate to what kirsche was doing.

What feel forced about it ? could you explain in more detail ?

Okay so i read the thread again and i'm not that far advanced. Once again i feel like the randa's case on ms. Bunch is too far fetched imo. But like refa said earlier he show that there is a thought process behind it so it's not scummy in itself. I think i would gladly sheep the vote's on clarinet's or michelaar but i would like to have a little more content from kirsche before taking away my vote from him.

Guh... I feel shameful for not coming with anything after skimming through the thread for one hour and an half.

[Refa]

@Boron I think the cases on Randa are good but I'm not really feeling them myself, which is why I don't want to lynch him. I'd consolidate on him over like anyone except Clarinets and Freyjadour, though, just because I'm null on him but he'd be way better for reading interactions than anyone else. Also as far as inactives go, I'd lynch Elie over the rest because I know he's been online to some capacity and hasn't posted yet.

[Randa]

so you were baiting him into voting you? why??? what would him posting not-an-OMGUS have meant?

if what he said was scummy without question, why do you need him to clarify/post real content?

i think the first point is simple, it means i would have an easier time getting a solid read on him, he would have actual content and something significant to analyze.

to the second point i was far from 100%. more like 55-60% enough for me to need clarification. and he hadn't/ hasn't posted real content so i would like that to exist so i can have a better read, cause one scumslip isn't the end all be all of scumhunting. his reaction more than anything else is what makes me feel confident hes scum.

The bolded seems really I'm gonna say bad. Made a good choice trying to case kirsche seems like something you would say to a scum buddy, not something you would say about a bad case. It's really bad. I don't know if it's misspeaking or a legit some scum slip, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter rather than the former.

##Unvote

## Vote: Ms. bunch

Sunwoo, on 07 Mar 2016 - 3:19 PM, said:

Randa: do you still find Mancer scummy, because I didn't notice until someone else mentioned it that you dropped your vote on him without much fanfare to go for Freyjadour. Why is what Freyjadour was doing at the time you voted him more suspicious than what Mancer had? If anything, that vote switch makes Randa look a bit shady. Also, what do you think about the rest of the game right now? I feel like you've had a bit too much tunnel vision on Freyjadour, and I can't tell what you think about anyone who is not Mancer or Freyjadour, which isn't good.

in order that they were asked:

yes however he hasn't had any content since i changed my vote so i see no reason to change my vote in the immediate.

I think i've explained this one i can give you the post numbers in a couple minutes.

Refa reads as town to me, SB is close to town he isn't playing to his scum meta at the very least. half the game hasn't been very active, granted refa and i combine for a third of the total posts in the game but i would still like more activity. i need to reread mistuki and you to get solid reads. i have no problems with cam atm, dont think hes as towny as sb or refa dont think hes scum. clarinets is hard to read, just formating problems make the actual posts to read and considering i've quote walls with minimal content as town before idk if i can hes scum atm, i want see more out him though. i don't think i've missed anyone major at this point.

[Randa]

Refa reads as town to me,

SB is close to town he isn't playing to his scum meta at the very least.

half the game hasn't been very active, granted refa and i combine for a third of the total posts in the game but i would still like more activity.

i need to reread mistuki and you to get solid reads.

i have no problems with cam atm, dont think hes as towny as sb or refa dont think hes scum.

clarinets is hard to read, just formating problems make the actual posts to read and considering i've quote walls with minimal content as town before idk if i can hes scum atm, i want see more out him though. i don't think i've missed anyone major at this point.

formating change

[Izhuark]

do you think that people are scum for not participating in the role spec

does "weird" = "scum"?

what???

1 : No not at all, I just think that it would have been in town best interest to settle that rolespec thing as soon as possible before we could move on to scumhunting for reason i already explained earlier.

2 : I don't know anymore.

3 : I basically think the argument between Randa and Ms. Bunch was sterile and that it will not lead to anything.

[Randa]

post 118 and post 90 explain why i changed my vote, with 118 having a thought by thought process.

[solrocknroll]

I'm thinking that my thing with Randa will lead literally nowhere tbh.

I still think Randa could be scum, but I'm not going to obsess over trying to case someone based on how they baited me.

As a whole, Clarinets is honestly more suspicious. Clarinets has made some empty posts masqueraded as a lot by quote blocks, and it might mean that they're trying to look more like a contributor than you are.

I'm not going to defend how I acted with Randa really. It can be distilled down to an OMGUS even if I were baited. I'd still be fine with lynching him.

For town reads, Cam and Refa ae pretty great right now. I don't have a strong opinion either way on most of anyone else.

[solrocknroll]

Since I forgot in the other post:

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets

[Refa]

Everyone who is townreading me is BUDDYING with me (probably because I have the best avatar TBH) because I don't feel like I've done anything.

[CT075]

oh yeah i also am a fan of lynching inactives more this phase of this game than any other so we don't have to wait as long for role distribution #10/10reasoningsheepme

it just struck me that this reasoning is actually horrible because we still have to wait for whoever to start us off

IGNORE WHATEVER THAT SAID

also still not feeling like reading properly

[Mitsuki]

I forgot about one of the things I wanted to post already.

@Mitsuki, you said somewhere that town would only confirm you had a Kirby, but what Izhuark said was that we were all Kirby. Now, I got a Kirby too, but, it felt slightly wrong to me that he said we were all Kirbys. I mean, it is more likely that Prims is to tell the scumteam everyone is a Kirby for him to know, right?

I suggested everyone could be Kirby first. It's just normal that someone, reading their PM and seeing they're Kirby, will just assume that we are all Kirby indeed. I think that the weird thing here was the fact that I noticed everyone could be Kirby.
And either way, if you know everyone is Kirby because the mod told you, you don't go and post about it in thread when someone asks about it. That would be really dumb.

I don't think it's a good idea to rolespec anymore, by the way. Most people aren't listening, so there's no point.

i don't disagree with your assertion that a lot of freyja's posts are empty but i'm curious as to which posts exactly you think are super bad

I pretty much didn't like anything he posted before my case, but sure, I'll specify:

Here the suggestion to give bodyguard to town was bad, since there are more important roles, and other people talked about the mayor before.
Totally useless post. We already know what has to be done. Again.
Those are all his posts before my case on him.

BUT [Here comes the actual content]

This post by him seems super townie to me now. The way he's aware of what he's doing feels like town, specially when he says his Randa read was going nowhere but that he could still be scum. Reminds me of SB and his attitude towards his scumread on me, which I'm townreading him on.

It also reminds me a lot of what happened in another game with 3rdCorinthian (I cased him and he replied a similar way, but I didn't give up my scumread). They have a similar attitude, so I believe this is probably a towntell, and not something null like I've considered before.

##unvote
##Vote: Elieson

This is kind of a placeholder, since he has no content at all. Elie, you should get back and talk.
I didn't like his only post though, it felt noncommittal. I expect town to be eager to post content for the first time, even if they haven't read the whole thread. Also, going from what Refa mentioned, he has had just enough time to do that, but he still hasn't, which makes it worse.

I'm still not sure if this is just something I don't like or something truly scummy, but at least my vote does something here.
I get a similar feeling from Kirsche/Michelaar/Boron but I'm not sure if this is all paranoia or what. I'm townreading 9/14 slots in this game, with the only nullread being Clarinets, so PoE would lead to very similar results. But I just don't know, I feel like most of my reads aren't very strong.

[ZoesMad]

Votals 1.3

Randa (3): Blitz, SB, Cam
Izuhark (3): Mancer, Clarinets, Michelaar
Clarinets (3): Boron, Refa, Ms. Bunch
Ms. Bunch (1): Randa
Proto (1): Kirsche
Elieson (1): Mitsuki
Kirsche (1): Izuhark
Not voting: Elieson, Proto

There are approximately 28 hours and 11minutes until phase end.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Lord Gaius

[solrocknroll]

I'm not scum reading Elieson yet, but I agree that he desperately needs to make some sort of post at all.

[SB.]

zzzzzzzz i feel super tired

Cam's Mitsuki vote kind of bugs me. It's not really that it's a scummy vote, but its more like... idk I don't feel like the content he points out is strong enough to justify the turnaround in his read. I dunno, I need to think about this more.

My immediate reaction to Randa's post that he didn't have problems with my case was that he was town but after thinking about it for 10 seconds I feel like it's something he would've posted as either alignment? If he wanted to wifom considering He Is Randa.

Blitz, why did you ask Izhuark that question? I'm curious.

I like Boron more after her page 6 post, it feels like she has more to say and is a lot more productive than I remember her being as scum? If this makes sense. To answer your question, I don't really think ED1 interactions mean much unless it snowballs into a wagon, and nothing the two have done have really made me think that they can't be buddies.

I don't understand Freyja's comment about not being baited by Randa at all? It feels really random and out there, please explain? Especially since you're still suspecting him I'm just kind of baffled by this.

Mitsuki's voteswitch feels like kind of an easy out, but with all the supposed townreads I can kind of get it? Although I'd like to know why you're townreading Proto/Clarinets/Me.

Going to mull things over for a few minutes and then probably figure out my vote.

[SB.]

I guess iafter thinking about it a bit more another problem with Cam is that it feels like he's spending a lot of his time arguing without really having a purpose to it (that I can see). Combined with content that's pretty much ok he feels really underwhelming to me.

[Refa]

Randa: Would consolidate if necessary.

Izhuark: What the hell, he's still voting Kirsche? I dunno, he mentioned something about it before but I find it hard to believe that he'd think his reasons for voting Kirsche are stronger than the votes that he said he'd sheep. Would like some explanation here.

Clarinets: lol

Ms. Bunch: Still would be okay with lunching.

Proto: lol

Elieson: The inactive dude I'd be most cool with lynching.

Kirsche: lol

@SB

-What bothers you about Cam's Mitsuki vote? Not as in what do you think is scummy about it but what section are you talking about?

-Also having a hard time telling who you're bothered by except for Randa (although to be fair, you said you were making a followup post BUT you can just respond to this in that post anyways). Do you think Freyjadour/Mitsuki are scum? I'll uh ISO Cam because it felt like his past games to me although in retrospect, I've never actually played with Scum!Cam.

[SB.]

The vote itself isn't scummy, it just doesn't feel strong enough to justify an apparent switch from being a townread to a scumread.

You're probably having a hard time telling because I'm not that sure myself. I'm fine lynching Freyja because it feels like he's done a lot more observation than analysis and generally the posts feel kind of scatterbrained? But not in an innocent way? Idk how to explain this. I also feel like he's trying his best to cling to the Randa vote without looking into Randa's more recent content.

In hindsight I'd probably lynch this instead.

[SB.]

And as for Mitsuki I'm iffy. It's not really a scumread anymore but I don't think I would be surprised if she got dayvigged right now and flipped scum. It's more like a nagging suspicion than anything else at this point?

[Refa]

Oh, fair enough (on both Cam and Mitsuki). I'm townreading both of them but I can get where you're coming from, at least.

Honestly, I haven't really analyzed Freyjadour's recent posts that much because I'm having a hard time getting any sort of handle on him. I'd sheep what you said about his Randa vote, though. My issue is less that he's holding onto his Randa vote though and more that he's holding onto it while voting someone else (I dunno, it's like the tunneling itself doesn't bother me but moreso the tunneling while voting someone else).

Thoughts on Clarinets?