And Fates Worst Character Award Goes To...

[Emerson]

You know, just to come at this from another angle and talk about someone who's often ignored support-wise, namely Setsuna.

In terms of support, Setsuna is arguably the worst character in the entire series from a certain point of view. She doesn't act or even talk as a human, she's got zero chemistry with anyone as a result of that, making her status as royal retainer even stranger, and I believe every single one of her first generation supports revolve almost entirely around her, and it's always the same story: she sucks at something or gets stuck somewhere, and for some reason people either want or have to stick around her.

Even in terms of the most tropy of tropy characters, Setsuna is by far the worst offender, lacking in anything outside of the supposed jokes that are repeated ad nauseam. Every single one of her supports are interchangeable.

Now don't get me wrong, characters like Peri are worse for dragging down her support partners to her level, Xander's main story appearance makes him a far worse character than someone as insignificant as Setsuna could ever hope to be, and Camilla's fan service and revolting supports almost make my physically ill, but the fact that Setsuna does not even act like a human being bothers me.

Doesn't Setsuna have a support with a backstory? I could've sworn she did...

Don't get me wrong, Setsuna's really bland and is pretty much the bad side of Felicia supports. I just remember her having a backstory...

[DragonFlames]

Even though everyone on this forum probably hates me already, I'd like to join in the fun as well...

Worst Unit(s)

Several, actually. And my personal worst units aren't decided by their growths and bases, but by my personal experiences with them, so no Gunter, as it is expected from his archetype that he sucks.

Setsuna - An Archer with no hit rate and squishy as hell when caught off guard, so Point Blank strategies fly straight out the window. Yep, she sucks. And she gimps any child's Strength and Skill growth on top of that, which is why I only give her to someone I couldn't give less of a crap about. The only plus to her is that she can give her class to better units like Hana and Selena, who can pick up useful skills like Certain Blow, Amaterasu and in Selena's case if - I want to make her a Bow Knight - Bowfaire.

Hinata - A slow, unskilled Swordfighter with so little Res that an enemy mage only has to sneeze for him to die quickly. That basically describes Hinata. He can't double anything, he isn't fast, the weapon named after him sucks, which fits, and you can't even use him as a tank, which his growths and mods would suggest you to do, since switching him to Oni Savage only makes his problems worse. I'll stick with Hana or Corrin if I want a strong Swordmaster, thank you very much.

He, like Setsuna, does have a useful class to give in his Samurai base. Selena in particular appreciates Swordmaster and she can get good use out of it. If you marry him to Hana, she'll get Oni Savage for the hilarious Counter-Countermagic-combo.

Subaki - Frankly, all Sky Knights suck in this game. Compare Subaki, Hinoka, Shigure and Caeldori to Florina, Marcia, FE9 Tanith, Sumia, Cordelia and Cynthia and you'll quickly see that. It just so happens that Subaki is by far the worst out of all of them. He hits like a wet tissue, is slow as a snail going up a horizontal cliff and doesn't even give his spouses useful classes. The only one that can get a use out of marrying this guy is Hinoka, who will get the Samurai class, which slightly mends her own troubles, but then again, Hana and/or Corrin, even Kaze and Saizo are preferable as far as possible Swordmasters go. Selena and Sakura, for example, get NOTHING from him and Nyx gets yet another class she can't use because of terrible Strength.

The only thing he has going for him is his decently good Defence, so he can be a secondary tank with Rinkah until Oboro rolls around, at least. And his personal weapon doesn't suck, either, especially if you give it to someone with high Skill.

Arthur - This one's a given and is probably the winner of my 'Worst Units' Award. He sucks. He just completely sucks. He can't hit, so his high Strength doesn't help anyone, his personal skill might as well be a suicide note and his class is one of the worst on its own, as you need an awful lot of reclassing/skill buying to get a good Berserker and you're better off promoting your Hero from Mercenary, because at least the Mercenary skills don't suck and are in fact quite useful. His secondary class isn't worth it, as you have enough Cavaliers who are all better than him anyway and you're thus better off using your Heart Seal elsewhere. On Conquest, he is a liability and his class does nothing for possible spouses other bachelors wouldn't offer and better, i. e. Laslow and M!Corrin with a Merc talent, who give their spouse all the Sols she (or he, if you marry Niles to M!Corrin) wants. So, here's your winner by a landslide: Arthur.

At least his character doesn't annoy me like Subaki and Setsuna, so that's a plus, but we aren't judging by character here...

Worst Portrayal

... That is reserved for this section. This is all personal feelings and prefernces. 'Portrayal' for me isn't how realistic or well-written a character is, it's how endearing and likable they are to me, so if I think a character is badly 'portrayed', it means I don't like the way they act in story and/or supports, speak and all that jazz. Okay? Okay. Then, here we go.

The Male Royals - All of them. They all suck in terms of character. I have said many times exactly why I think they suck, so in order to avoid sounding like a broken record, I'll just say this: With a family like that who needs enemies anymore?

The least sucky is probably Leo, if only because he isn't as 'in-your-face' about his suckiness as Ryoma, Xander and Takumi are.

They also get my award for worst characters in Fire Emblem period. Right along with Azura, whom I have also ragged on enough by now.

Setsuna - Poor girl makes my list twice and for good reason, too. Playing mental handicaps up as a joke isn't funny and it never will be. Stop trying. All of the others have done a good job explaing why she sucks, too, so I'll leave it at that.

Camilla - This is less about her personality, which I actually think is justified by a (barely) explored backstory, but more about her character design. She's 'too' fanservice-y. Now, I don't mind fanservice, far from it, but when a game that's not usually about that kind of stuff is THIS in your face about it, it gets annoying. I mean, at least with Hilda's ridiculous outfit in Stella Glow, you forget to notice after the second time you see her, but with Camilla, whose *cough* assets are the focus of any cutscene she's in, it feels like she's only there because of them, if you catch my drift.

Jakob - They might as well have called him 'Jackass', because that's what he ultimately is. He is a straight up asshole to anyone - yes, even Corrin, if you look at their supports from the right angle - and an abusive father to top it all off. Hell, he's even worse than Takumi in that regard, because at least that douche eventually softens up.

[Thane]

Doesn't Setsuna have a support with a backstory? I could've sworn she did...

Don't get me wrong, Setsuna's really bland and is pretty much the bad side of Felicia supports. I just remember her having a backstory...

She says her family is very rich in her support with Niles, as well as her practicing in the castle is what made Hinoka ask her to be her retainer. I've read that she became the way she is because she had everything, but I can't find it for the life of me, since all of her supports blend together and become the exact same thing with only a few words changed. Also, even if that's true, I'd first say it's absolutely nonsensical, since that'd probably mean her past would have the opposite effect on her personality, and then I'd say her past doesn't matter as all of her supports are the same and she has no dialogue outside of her introduction chapter/quotes as an enemy in Conquest.

However, in that sense, I'd say Felicia is worse off because she's a kidnapped girl forced into servitude, and this is never brought up at all. Why expand on a character having Stockholm Syndrome when you can have moe maids?

[Azure Sen]

However, in that sense, I'd say Felicia is worse off because she's a kidnapped girl forced into servitude, and this is never brought up at all. Why expand on a character having Stockholm Syndrome when you can have moe maids?

It's mentioned in her boss dialogue with Flora in...Conquest I think and her support with Niles that Felicia had no idea she was a political hostage, since both her dad and Flora withheld that fact from her. Saying she has Stockholm Syndrome isn't the case, because as far as she's concerned she's not being held against her will.

[Anacybele]

The OP pretty much summed up my answer. Camilla, for reasons already stated in said post. I hate her with a passion.

[Thane]

It's mentioned in her boss dialogue with Flora in...Conquest I think and her support with Niles that Felicia had no idea she was a political hostage, since both her dad and Flora withheld that fact from her. Saying she has Stockholm Syndrome isn't the case, because as far as she's concerned she's not being held against her will.

But how does that even begin to make an iota of sense? First of all, she and Flora are twins, meaning they're the same age; why would Flora know and not Felicia? How would Felicia not know she's kidnapped and held there against her will when she's forced to serve Corrin and isn't allowed to leave?

Their dialogue in Conquest could be interpreted in a number of ways, honestly; all Flora says is "You really don't understand, do you? This goes beyond words. Don't you realize, all of our time in that castle was...I mean it was just..." - what exactly is she implying here? I read this as Flora thinking Felicia's naïve for liking their time in the fortress, not that Felicia had no idea she was being held against her will.

Also, isn't there an argument to be made that Felicia denying she was ever held against her will is an exact sympton of Stockholm Syndrome? Niles states this: "Then you must have come to Nohr from your homeland as a hostage" to which Felicia replies "I-I don't think of myself that way..." - that doesn't sound like "no, you're wrong" to me. Hell, Niles even says "but it's the truth regardless", and she doesn't object.

Regardless, even if you are right, it really doesn't change much about Felicia's character; this should've been a substantial subplot, which is is not. If I'm wrong here I'm definitely ready to accept that fact, but if all we have is a vague implication that could mean anything, I'm just not seeing it.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Thane

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

The Male Royals - All of them. They all suck in terms of character. I have said many times exactly why I think they suck, so in order to avoid sounding like a broken record, I'll just say this: With a family like that who needs enemies anymore?

The least sucky is probably Leo, if only because he isn't as 'in-your-face' about his suckiness as Ryoma, Xander and Takumi are.

They also get my award for worst characters in Fire Emblem period. Right along with Azura, whom I have also ragged on enough by now.

Camilla - This is less about her personality, which I actually think is justified by a (barely) explored backstory, but more about her character design. She's 'too' fanservice-y. Now, I don't mind fanservice, far from it, but when a game that's not usually about that kind of stuff is THIS in your face about it, it gets annoying. I mean, at least with Hilda's ridiculous outfit in Stella Glow, you forget to notice after the second time you see her, but with Camilla, whose *cough* assets are the focus of any cutscene she's in, it feels like she's only there because of them, if you catch my drift.

As far as the male royals go I would have written them different. Leo makes too many dumb choices to be the genius that he's supposed to be. Xander and Ryoma just felt bland to me. A lot of people like them, but I think the story should justify their actions more. Like remember when we were all sooooo worried about Ryoma in BR? He could have at least told the fam he was visiting his girlfriend in Cheve. I actually really like Takumi, but I would have written him better, maybe like Idk a more realistic teen character?

With Camilla they could have made her more flirty to justify the design, or just not shove them into our faces. Also in Stella Glow characters would sometimes mention fanservicey designs, in Fire Emblem Fates nobody says a thing about them.

[Azure Sen]

But how does that even begin to make an iota of sense? First of all, she and Flora are twins, meaning they're the same age; why would Flora know and not Felicia? How would Felicia not know she's kidnapped and held there against her will when she's forced to serve Corrin and isn't allowed to leave?

Because Felicia is, to put it bluntly, a naive, scatterbrained idiot with zero common sense, contented enough by her role and the people around her to not question anything about her situation or care enough to try and leave. (It occurs to me that you could also ask the same question of Kamui and why he never questioned his imprisonment in the Northern Fortress, really, and you'd get a similar answer, minus the scatterbrained part.)

Their dialogue in Conquest could be interpreted in a number of ways, honestly; all Flora says is "You really don't understand, do you? This goes beyond words. Don't you realize, all of our time in that castle was...I mean it was just..." - what exactly is she implying here? I read this as Flora thinking Felicia's naïve for liking their time in the fortress, not that Felicia had no idea she was being held against her will.

Fair enough. I think that comment is ambiguous enough that it could be read either way.

Also, isn't there an argument to be made that Felicia denying she was ever held against her will is an exact sympton of Stockholm Syndrome? Niles states this: "Then you must have come to Nohr from your homeland as a hostage" to which Felicia replies "I-I don't think of myself that way..." - that doesn't sound like "no, you're wrong" to me. Hell, Niles even says "but it's the truth regardless", and she doesn't object.

I think the best answer here is "different writers for the story and supports." It does feel like, to some extent, the whole "you're actually a political prisoner, Felicia!" thing was actually supposed to be a major revelation in the five seconds they acknowledged it in Birthright and Conquest before going on to ignore it entirely.

Regardless, even if you are right, it really doesn't change much about Felicia's character; this should've been a substantial subplot, which is is not. If I'm wrong here I'm definitely ready to accept that fact, but if all we have is a vague implication that could mean anything, I'm just not seeing it.

I'm not going to argue that it's not terribly written and a waste of potential because it is and it is; I was just trying to discuss how the game presents the whole situation. I do have to admit, with all of the other writing issues surrounding Conquest's everything (and the fact that Flora is infinitely more interesting), I didn't actually examine the whole situation with Felicia closely so I never noticed how bad it is.

[Thane]

Because Felicia is, to put it bluntly, a naive, scatterbrained idiot with zero common sense, contented enough by her role and the people around her to not question anything about her situation or care enough to try and leave. (It occurs to me that you could also ask the same question of Kamui and why he never questioned his imprisonment in the Northern Fortress, really, and you'd get a similar answer, minus the scatterbrained part.)

Sure, but not to the point where she doesn't understand she can't go out a door. If she didn't know that much, then Flora's attempt at shielding her from the truth would be much, much more disastrous than letting her know about it.

Fair enough. I think that comment is ambiguous enough that it could be read either way.

I think the line "all of our time in that castle was...I mean it was just..." is more likely to be followed by a single word, like "...awful" or "...terrible", rather than "...a political maneuver made by Garon to make sure the Ice Tribe couldn't rebel, which I kept from you because you somehow never realized it's not normal for people to be forced into servitude".

I think the best answer here is "different writers for the story and supports." It does feel like, to some extent, the whole "you're actually a political prisoner, Felicia!" thing was actually supposed to be a major revelation in the five seconds they acknowledged it in Birthright and Conquest before going on to ignore it entirely.

You think so? Seeing as I never even knew this theory was there in the first place and no support really focuses on it, I can't say I agree.

I'm not going to argue that it's not terribly written and a waste of potential because it is and it is; I was just trying to discuss how the game presents the whole situation. I do have to admit,

with all of the other writing issues surrounding Conquest's everything (and the fact that Flora is infinitely more interesting), I didn't actually examine the whole situation with Felicia closely so I never noticed how bad it is.

On that, however, we can agree. I always find it so odd that Corrin doesn't even address Flora's situation in either Conquest or Revelation after she joins them and they can support each other. Their advice for Flora not feeling like serving them is essentially "take a break"...which works. Truly, the pinnacle of morals right here, ladies and gentlemen.

I hope I don't come across as too snarky or rude in my replies, AzureSen; I have the utmost respect for you since you always write your posts so well, but I simply don't see enough of a basis to agree with your point of view here. To me, everything points to Felicia suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, which is ironic considering I normally find it annoying when people are looking for issues that characters might have.

[eclipse]

You know, just to come at this from another angle and talk about someone who's often ignored support-wise, I'd like to bring up Setsuna.

In terms of support, Setsuna is arguably the worst character in the entire series from a certain point of view. She doesn't act or even talk as a human, she's got zero chemistry with anyone as a result of that, making her status as royal retainer even stranger, and I believe every single one of her first generation supports revolve almost entirely around her, and it's always the same story: she sucks at something or gets stuck somewhere, and for some reason people either want or have to stick around her.

Even in terms of the most tropy of tropy characters, Setsuna is by far the worst offender, lacking in anything outside of the supposed jokes that are repeated ad nauseam. Every single one of her supports are interchangeable.

Now don't get me wrong, characters like Peri are worse for dragging down her support partners to her level, Xander's main story appearance makes him a far worse character than someone as insignificant as Setsuna could ever hope to be, and Camilla's fan service and revolting supports almost make my physically ill, but the fact that Setsuna does not even act like a human being bothers me.

IMO her "best" support is Tsubaki, for not feeling completely contrived. I tried supporting her with Jakob, and couldn't figure out how that was supposed to work.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

So much I can't stand Camilla's personality and appearance, I'm objective enough to say that she's the probably best unit in Conquest.

Unitwise I find Odin awful in Conquest and in Revelations. Joins with low level and wrong growths for his class.

Subaki is a serious contender for this "award" too.

Worst

Appearance: Camilla

Character: Idk (don't know that many supports)

Unit: Odin

[Etrurian emperor]

Portrayal

I think the worst character in terms of portrayal would obviously be Garon. The game's premise gave a lot of potential to Garon and the writing alludes to him living up to that at certain times. Except he never does. Garon is just evil for the sake of being evil and nothing, not the poverty of his kingdom or his family massacring each other seems to have any effect on how he acts or what motivates him.

But not only does Garon fail to live up to his own potential but he also drags a lot of other characters down with him. Why would anyone fight for this man? Corrin comes across like an idiot for choosing Nohr, because of Garon, Nohr's entire gimmick becomes just being evil if their poverty gets shafted in favor of that and a lot of complaints about Xander are tied to Garon as well. Peri drags down members of the cast as well but if you put her into a corner or let her die that's easy enough to ignore. With Garon you can't get around that he has a bad effect on how other characters are written.

Incidentally I feel like I have to defend Xander a bit. I don't see what sets him apart so negatively when compared to other characters of the Camus archtypes. Its not like Chagaal is any less obviously evil than Garon is and its not like the original Camus has any better motives for staying with a man who sells his own children. If anything being biologically related to the villain, being trapped in an abusive relationship and remembering better times would give Xander better reasons than some of his counterparts who lack even that.

Design.

That's very easily Asugi. Asugi is Gaius and nothing about his designs or personality stood out enough for him to get his own clone. I know he ranked high in a purely Japanese popularity poll but neither myself nor a whole bunch of other players are Japanese so I don't have a reason to care about that.

Unit

Either Nyx or Odin. I never found either of them to be particularly useful. They start out bad and with Leo joining not that late and my Corrin being magic focused I had no reason to invest in those two. In revelations Orochi and Hayato, who I never found that horrible in Birthright joins much earlier than either of those characters so I again wouldn't have a reason to invest in them.

[Thane]

Incidentally I feel like I have to defend Xander a bit. I don't see what sets him apart so negatively when compared to other characters of the Camus archtypes. Its not like Chagaal is any less obviously evil than Garon is and its not like the original Camus has any better motives for staying with a man who sells his own children. If anything being biologically related to the villain, being trapped in an abusive relationship and remembering better times would give Xander better reasons than some of his counterparts who lack even that.

Should.

Those are all things that should have been important, but they aren't. There's very, very little to imply this is what drives Xander in any route. Instead, what we get is someone who is a villain in two and a half routes because he's too gutless to stop following a person he knows to be evil. He's actively kept out of any character development in Conquest since Corrin doesn't tell them about Garon's true identity, so he just goes along with the invasion and people cheer for him when he's crowned king anyway.

Asking me to sympathize for such an awful, selfish, cowardly person and even feel happy when he's crowned king is really asking too much.

[Etrurian emperor]

Should.

Those are all things that should have been important, but they aren't. There's very, very little to imply this is what drives Xander in any route. Instead, what we get is someone who is a villain in two and a half routes because he's too gutless to stop following a person he knows to be evil. He's actively kept out of any character development in Conquest since Corrin doesn't tell them about Garon's true identity, so he just goes along with the invasion and people cheer for him when he's crowned king anyway.

Asking me to sympathize for such an awful, selfish, cowardly person and even feel happy when he's crowned king is really asking too much.

But again doesn't that go for all members of that archtype? They may not get to become kings at the end but most of them also keep following persons they know to be evil. I don't get why Xander alone gets singled out on that.

[Thane]

But again doesn't that go for all members of that archtype? They may not get to become kings at the end but most of them also keep following persons they know to be evil. I don't get why Xander alone gets singled out on that.

Several reasons.

First of all, poor writing is poor writing, regardless of archetype.

Secondly, Xander is portrayed in a far more sympathetic light than he deserves to the point where we're even expected to feel like it's a good thing a self-serving coward takes the Nohrian throne, even though Xander only stood against Garon when it was revealed he wasn't even human, which really doesn't change the fact that he took part in an unmotivated invasion anyway.

I've never played Genealogy of the Holy War, but doesn't Eldigan get executed? Selena's past in Sacred Stones is the origin of her motivations which are made crystal clear, unlike Xander's. Finally Hetzel is portrayed like a sniveling coward even though he just didn't speak out against the other senators, unlike Xander who took an active part in an invasion he knew to be unjust, yet he's treated like a hero. Those are some pretty damn big differences.

Thirdly, he's a main character, so there's a lot more focus on him.

Then there are the miscellaneous things like him prolonging the war in Conquest, fighting on after having accidentally killed his own little sister and spitting on her sacrifice in Birthright, and so on.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Thane

[BrightBow]

But again doesn't that go for all members of that archtype? They may not get to become kings at the end but most of them also keep following persons they know to be evil. I don't get why Xander alone gets singled out on that.

Are they his archetype? The various Camuses could all be compared on a case by case basis to Xander but at the end of the day these characters were sympathetic antagonists while Xander is supposed to be an actual hero. That's a very different role.

I've never played Genealogy of the Holy War, but doesn't Eldigan get executed?

That's one possible outcome. Alternatively he gets killed in battle by Sigurd. Either way his commitment gets him killed, which I think is a very important difference to consider before comparing Xander to the various Camuses.

Edited January 12, 2017 by BrightBow

[Sunwoo]

I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) other Camus figures are killed at some point in their games. Also, even if they are portrayed as sympathetic villains, they are still considered villains nonetheless and no matter how sympathetic they are they have to be moved. Like Thane said, Fates wants us to believe that Xander is a hero when he comes off as selfish and spineless throughout his own route, and Xander's shortcomings as a future king and his inability to see past his biases aren't brought up as a legitimate flaw in the story.

[Azure Sen]

Sure, but not to the point where she doesn't understand she can't go out a door. If she didn't know that much, then Flora's attempt at shielding her from the truth would be much, much more disastrous than letting her know about it.

I think it boils down to IntSys not realizing the implications of what they wrote, and so they way they present it in game is...questionable.

I think the line "all of our time in that castle was...I mean it was just..." is more likely to be followed by a single word, like "...awful" or "...terrible", rather than "...a political maneuver made by Garon to make sure the Ice Tribe couldn't rebel, which I kept from you because you somehow never realized it's not normal for people to be forced into servitude".

I was thinking it would be more along the lines of something like "...a charade" or "...a gilded cage." But I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

You think so? Seeing as I never even knew this theory was there in the first place and no support really focuses on it, I can't say I agree.

Having finally gone back and reviewed the scripts for the chapters where you fight Flora, the whole situation is only hinted at in that one ambiguous conversation in Conquest and not brought up at all in Birthright. This is what I get for being lazy.

On that, however, we can agree. I always find it so odd that Corrin doesn't even address Flora's situation in either Conquest or Revelation after she joins them and they can support each other. Their advice for Flora not feeling like serving them is essentially "take a break"...which works. Truly, the pinnacle of morals right here, ladies and gentlemen.

Female Kamui does have a different support with Flora, at least in the English version, but it similarly does not address anything about Flora's issues. Actually, thinking about it now, there is a weird dissonance between Flora and Felicia and how they're written. It's almost like the writers almost completely forgot about the whole thing when it came time to write Felicia, given that it only has a token mention in one support and nowhere else, even though it's a pretty important part of Flora's character. It makes me wonder if perhaps Flora was created later and they just didn't bother changing Felicia's supports/story role to match, or perhaps Flora and Felicia weren't originally related and were only made sisters at the last minute.

I hope I don't come across as too snarky or rude in my replies, AzureSen; I have the utmost respect for you since you always write your posts so well, but I simply don't see enough of a basis to agree with your point of view here. To me, everything points to Felicia suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, which is ironic considering I normally find it annoying when people are looking for issues that characters might have.

Don't worry, you're not coming off as snarky or rude at all. Really, the only reason I don't agree is that there's just not enough focus or insight into Felicia's feelings on the matter, and one support is not enough for me to definitively say that Felicia has Stockholm Syndrome. Flora, on the other hand...

[Nanima]

As for worst written I'd have to pick Soleil (i'd pick Corrin, but they have already been explained by others. Also Setsuna sometimes manages to be mildly enterataining.). No, I don't give a damn about that Corrin support mess, it's dumb but ultimately harmless, and many other supports of hers are awful in an actually offensive way. (the only good one I'd say is the one with her dad)

First, she is already based of an stupid stereotype in the first place, the "it's just a phase, she'll grow up and move past this eventually" one specifically. Which is probably one of the reasons she can only S-rank men.

Second, she outright harasses girls she is "into" (and Forrest), repeatedly violating their space and personal wishes. This includes straight up groping and chasing perople down.

I know the localisation tried to fix this, but they went about it very clumsily. A) Her Ophelia support remains unchanged, as does her line with Ignatius about wanting to sneak up on random girls and hug them. She is still a harasser. ( so the implication is girl on girl doesn't count as abuse..). B) She can still only S-rank men, it's just that these are all "friendships" except for Forrest... which feels more like she goes with the guy who carters to her fetish. C) In light of the other two facts, the parts of her personality that are rewritten feel very out of place, and makes her come across as more schizophrenic than an improved character. They had good intentions, but I feel like they really didn't understand the actual issues with Soleil)

All in all, she is the last character I'd want as a bi girl representation, and I genuinely can't grasp how people can praise her as one.

Unit: Most awful units can be salvaged in some way, but the question is if they are worth it. I'd never bother raising Nyx, since you have many better options in the way of magic. At least she makes for good kids though.

[NekoKnight]

All in all, she is the last character I'd want as a bi girl representation, and I genuinely can't grasp how people can praise her as one.

Soleil is this anime archetype where you have this lust-filled pervert that chases other girls because girl on girl is cute/hot/funny. The major divergence from the way this character usually plays out is the focus they get. People like Soleil are usually just gag characters that don't get much attention nor development in their relationships (if they have any at all beyond harassing people). For the sake of eugenics however, Soleil needs to breed and this supposed lesbian-leaning bisexual is making an exception of EVERY SINGLE relationship she can have. To add insult to injury, she can't even pair with Femui who can be bisexual herself.

Even if you like Soleil's archetype she's a poorly written example among them.

[Sweet_Basil]

Portrayal:

Tie between Xander/Ryoma and Corrin in Xander/Ryoma's case both are pretty dumb, stubborn, boring, and they both seem to have no clue how to think for themselves. Corrin is the most obnoxious protagonist as of yet, they were terribly written. Forgiving enemy units not once but several times is just asking for a stab-in-the-back.

Unit:
Odin is really bad so I guess him, Nyx is at least useful at chipping and can keep up her speed. Her bases are also better save for def, and hp.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Sweet_Basil

[twistedxgrace]

So much I can't stand Camilla's personality and appearance, I'm objective enough to say that she's the probably best unit in Conquest.

Unitwise I find Odin awful in Conquest and in Revelations. Joins with low level and wrong growths for his class.

Subaki is a serious contender for this "award" too.

To those complaining about Odin, yes, he is a mediocre mage, but I can tell you that he is much better, perhaps great even, when reclasses (ideally to Samurai). He has a very fun personal skill, too, and Odin is one of my favorite characters in the game for his personality. I can't be the only one in that boat, right? He was ranked the #2 Awakening male in the official Nintendo poll, and now, he is his same silly self, but has grown a bit, which is always nice.

As for worst written I'd have to pick Soleil (i'd pick Corrin, but they have already been explained by others. Also Setsuna sometimes manages to be mildly enterataining.). No, I don't give a damn about that Corrin support mess, it's dumb but ultimately harmless, and many other supports of hers are awful in an actually offensive way. (the only good one I'd say is the one with her dad)

First, she is already based of an stupid stereotype in the first place, the "it's just a phase, she'll grow up and move past this eventually" one specifically. Which is probably one of the reasons she can only S-rank men.

Second, she outright harasses girls she is "into" (and Forrest), repeatedly violating their space and personal wishes. This includes straight up groping and chasing perople down.

I know the localisation tried to fix this, but they went about it very clumsily. A) Her Ophelia support remains unchanged, as does her line with Ignatius about wanting to sneak up on random girls and hug them. She is still a harasser. ( so the implication is girl on girl doesn't count as abuse..). B) She can still only S-rank men, it's just that these are all "friendships" except for Forrest... which feels more like she goes with the guy who carters to her fetish. C) In light of the other two facts, the parts of her personality that are rewritten feel very out of place, and makes her come across as more schizophrenic than an improved character. They had good intentions, but I feel like they really didn't understand the actual issues with Soleil)

All in all, she is the last character I'd want as a bi girl representation, and I genuinely can't grasp how people can praise her as one.

I enjoy Soleil for who she is - a cute, strong and happy not-giving-a-fuck (in terms of changing clothes publicly, not groping women haha) Inigo 2.0 unfortunately victimized to poor and confused writing I like to say, though some of my very favorite characters in Fates are perhaps even more controversial ones like Peri and Rhajat. The latter I gotta say is still probably not the best bi representation the game could come up with, but she is still miles better than Soleil. I'm tired of seeing fans like "Why wasn't Soleil the bi option instead of Rhajat? She clearly looovesss girls and I wanna marry her!!!" even to this fucking day. Everyone has their romantic/personal preferences, yes, but even if Soleil were originally written as bi (because newsflash she wasn't as you've already said), gay marriage is still a relatively new concept in Japan and the gaming industry so it makes sense why there would only be two characters (one per gender) capable of same-sex marriage. That being said, I honestly don't understand why Rhajat gets so much hate other than "Tharja 2.0 ewwwww" I mean to be fair I did enjoy Tharja despite her faults but I think Rhajat is a better version of Tharja and a better bi option for the game. Rhajat may still stalk the avatar, but the avatar isn't bothered by this much at all and their supports are actually quite deep. Soleil, on the other hand, can be an actual sexual predator. Both characters have their goodhearted streaks, but Rhajat's are more effective since she is seen as the dark and brooding one while Soleil is all smiles all the time.

No matter who her mother is, either, Rhajat is pretty great unit-wise because alongside very high magic growth, her other stats (sans skill) are well-balanced, something the first generation mages desperately lack. I've yet to see complaints of Rhajat in this thread, but, I know if others read it they would say she is one of them. But why? She's great.

Edited January 13, 2017 by twistedxgrace

[twistedxgrace]

So much I can't stand Camilla's personality and appearance, I'm objective enough to say that she's the probably best unit in Conquest.

Unitwise I find Odin awful in Conquest and in Revelations. Joins with low level and wrong growths for his class.

Subaki is a serious contender for this "award" too.

To those complaining about Odin, yes, he is a mediocre mage, but I can tell you that he is much better, perhaps great even, when reclasses (ideally to Samurai). He has a very fun personal skill, too, and Odin is one of my favorite characters in the game for his personality. I can't be the only one in that boat, right? He was ranked the #2 Awakening male in the official Nintendo poll, and now, he is his same silly self, but has grown a bit, which is always nice.

As for worst written I'd have to pick Soleil (i'd pick Corrin, but they have already been explained by others. Also Setsuna sometimes manages to be mildly enterataining.). No, I don't give a damn about that Corrin support mess, it's dumb but ultimately harmless, and many other supports of hers are awful in an actually offensive way. (the only good one I'd say is the one with her dad)

First, she is already based of an stupid stereotype in the first place, the "it's just a phase, she'll grow up and move past this eventually" one specifically. Which is probably one of the reasons she can only S-rank men.

Second, she outright harasses girls she is "into" (and Forrest), repeatedly violating their space and personal wishes. This includes straight up groping and chasing perople down.

I know the localisation tried to fix this, but they went about it very clumsily. A) Her Ophelia support remains unchanged, as does her line with Ignatius about wanting to sneak up on random girls and hug them. She is still a harasser. ( so the implication is girl on girl doesn't count as abuse..). B) She can still only S-rank men, it's just that these are all "friendships" except for Forrest... which feels more like she goes with the guy who carters to her fetish. C) In light of the other two facts, the parts of her personality that are rewritten feel very out of place, and makes her come across as more schizophrenic than an improved character. They had good intentions, but I feel like they really didn't understand the actual issues with Soleil)

All in all, she is the last character I'd want as a bi girl representation, and I genuinely can't grasp how people can praise her as one.

I enjoy Soleil for who she is - a cute, strong and happy not-giving-a-fuck (in terms of changing clothes publicly, not groping women haha) Inigo 2.0 unfortunately victimized to poor and confused writing I like to say, though some of my very favorite characters in Fates are perhaps even more controversial ones like Peri and Rhajat. The latter I gotta say is still probably not the best bi representation the game could come up with, but she is still miles better than Soleil. I'm tired of seeing fans like "Why wasn't Soleil the bi option instead of Rhajat? She clearly looovesss girls and I wanna marry her!!!" even to this fucking day. Everyone has their romantic/personal preferences, yes, but even if Soleil were originally written as bi (because newsflash she wasn't as you've already said), gay marriage is still a relatively new concept in Japan and the gaming industry so it makes sense why there would only be two characters (one per gender) capable of same-sex marriage. That being said, I honestly don't understand why Rhajat gets so much hate other than "Tharja 2.0 ewwwww" I mean to be fair I did enjoy Tharja despite her faults but I think Rhajat is a better version of Tharja and a better bi option for the game. Rhajat may still stalk the avatar, but the avatar isn't bothered by this much at all and their supports are actually quite deep. Soleil, on the other hand, can be an actual sexual predator. Both characters have their goodhearted streaks, but Rhajat's are more effective since she is seen as the dark and brooding one while Soleil is all smiles all the time.

No matter who her mother is, either, Rhajat is pretty great unit-wise because alongside very high magic growth, her other stats (sans skill) are well-balanced, something the first generation mages desperately lack. I've yet to see complaints of Rhajat in this thread, but, I know if others read it they would say she is one of them. But why? She's great.

[eclipse]

Soleil is this anime archetype where you have this lust-filled pervert that chases other girls because girl on girl is cute/hot/funny. The major divergence from the way this character usually plays out is the focus they get. People like Soleil are usually just gag characters that don't get much attention nor development in their relationships (if they have any at all beyond harassing people). For the sake of eugenics however, Soleil needs to breed and this supposed lesbian-leaning bisexual is making an exception of EVERY SINGLE relationship she can have. To add insult to injury, she can't even pair with Femui who can be bisexual herself.

Even if you like Soleil's archetype she's a poorly written example among them.

Crap for her archetype? Dunno, don't really care. I think she's quite well-written. Not as a character, but as a statement on how bisexuals are treated - mostly ignored, and sometimes shoehorned into places they don't shine. I would've supported her being the female option for F!Corrin, just to see how she acts when a playable character returns her affection.

Weird as this sounds, I like most of her S-supports, too. The marriage thing felt really forced, and leaving it as friends fits her a lot better. It also doesn't completely discount the possibility that the relationship goes further sometime in the future (Shigure gives this vibe).

[NekoKnight]

Crap for her archetype? Dunno, don't really care. I think she's quite well-written. Not as a character, but as a statement on how bisexuals are treated - mostly ignored, and sometimes shoehorned into places they don't shine. I would've supported her being the female option for F!Corrin, just to see how she acts when a playable character returns her affection.

Weird as this sounds, I like most of her S-supports, too. The marriage thing felt really forced, and leaving it as friends fits her a lot better. It also doesn't completely discount the possibility that the relationship goes further sometime in the future (Shigure gives this vibe).

They probably could have made some interesting social commentary if she was forced into a hetero-normative role because of the society she lives in but she's just another anime trope. I just can't fathom why IS would design a character who is practically a lesbian (and the localization ramps this up even more) for a game that insists on pairing almost everyone in heterosexual relationships. If it weren't for children and eugenics, I'm sure IS would have more room to explore non-standard relationships.