Ice Dragon Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Othin said: In that case, why haven't a bunch of guys in Heroes (say, Ike, Ephraim, Takumi, Ogma, etc.) had their shirts replaced with crop tops? Because large changes to wardrobes do not happen for "canon" versions of characters, and crop tops don't really make sense for the seasonal banners that they managed to get. And maybe crop tops are just not a big enough boost relative to other possible outfits to make enough of a difference. And maybe not every single character needs to be sexualized in order to sell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Othin said: In that case, why haven't a bunch of guys in Heroes (say, Ike, Ephraim, Takumi, Ogma, etc.) had their shirts replaced with crop tops? Because large changes to wardrobes do not happen for "canon" versions of characters, and crop tops don't really make sense for the seasonal banners that they managed to get. And maybe crop tops are just not a big enough boost relative to other possible outfits to make enough of a difference. And maybe not every single character needs to be sexualized in order to sell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricaofRenais Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 @NegativeExponents- With Niles it is his design and and quotes that make him fanservice to me and that is just my opinion. If he only had his design without him being flirty then I wouldn't say he was fanservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, XRay said: I have no idea why they are leaving free money on the table. I think PA!Inigo is the only one with a crop top. Maybe female players are not buying into the summer male Special Heroes as much as they thought? I forgot about Inigo, he's a good example. But yeah, strikingly few like that. Inigo seems pretty popular to me. And I'm sure plenty of people pulled green on PA, if only for Azura, so I highly doubt they found compelling evidence of crop tops being ineffective. It seems to me that they didn't give them a fair shot. My impression is that the main reason is that they feel crop tops and related sexy outfits would undermine the image of those characters as tough, serious fighters. Does that sound plausible to you? 6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Because large changes to wardrobes do not happen for "canon" versions of characters, and crop tops don't really make sense for the seasonal banners that they managed to get. And maybe crop tops are just not a big enough boost relative to other possible outfits to make enough of a difference. And maybe not every single character needs to be sexualized in order to sell them. I think there have been plenty of opportunities for alts with crop tops. Spring seems like the best seasonal fit, but there are other options like Halloween and summer. Hell, even winter could work, considering some of the outfits we've seen there. As for a lack of canon crop tops, that just raises the question of why that's the case in the first place, and we're right back where we started. It's not like recent main series FE is any stranger to the "sex sells" philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tybrosion Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) While all of this has been quite riveting, the update is available (for iOS at least) and, um: Spoiler Can you spot the problem with this image? Hilariously unfortunate luck aside, I certainly approve of Klein's new toy. Sophia got a 14 raven tome like the Robins, and its refine effect is Def/Res+4 when unit is attacked. Dark Aura got Atk/Spd+5 during combat if within 2 spaces of a melee ally while Dark Excalibur got Special cooldown count -2 at start of turn 1. Edited March 7, 2019 by Tybrosion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NegativeExponents- Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 27 minutes ago, EricaofRenais said: @NegativeExponents- With Niles it is his design and and quotes that make him fanservice to me and that is just my opinion. If he only had his design without him being flirty then I wouldn't say he was fanservice. Oh, I can understand that. I was just focusing on design without taking his personality into account. 41 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Because large changes to wardrobes do not happen for "canon" versions of characters, and crop tops don't really make sense for the seasonal banners that they managed to get. Wendy’s hot pants would like a word with you. 5 minutes ago, Tybrosion said: Dark Excalibur got Special cooldown count -2 at start of turn 1. That’s unfortunate. Special Spiral on turn one is neat but I was hoping for more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troykv Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said: Oh, I can understand that. I was just focusing on design without taking his personality into account. Wendy’s hot pants would like a word with you. That’s unfortunate. Special Spiral on turn one is neat but I was hoping for more. This would benefit the people that already gave Special Spiral to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 28 minutes ago, Othin said: Spring seems like the best seasonal fit, but there are other options like Halloween and summer. That photograph makes me question the sexiness of crop tops.  28 minutes ago, Othin said: As for a lack of canon crop tops, that just raises the question of why that's the case in the first place, and we're right back where we started. It's not like recent main series FE is any stranger to the "sex sells" philosophy. Because the games made before Awakening weren't designed as half dating sims meant to have at least one character appeal to every possible player and have every character appeal to at least one player, noting (as @Interdimensional Observer posted somewhere recently) that the male-female ratio in pre-3DS games was close to 2 to 1. The purpose of the game can be said to drive the character designs, and Heroes and the 3DS games have reasons to make more specifically-appealing characters than the older games did.  9 minutes ago, Tybrosion said: Can you spot the problem with this image? Chill Def. Bad luck aside, Amiti with Chill Def is pretty good. Just... that bad luck.  10 minutes ago, Tybrosion said: Sophia got a 14 raven tome like Robins, and its refine effect is Def/Res+4 when unit is attacked. Sigh. Another weapon ruined with a default Litrraven effect. Compared to Raudhrowl+ [Def], she's at -2 HP, -1 Atk, -4 Spd, and -3 Def, which is kind of a terrible trade-off unless you're somehow having trouble with colorless enemies.  2 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said: Wendy’s hot pants would like a word with you. That's not exactly a large change. She was already wearing close-fitting pants under her armor, and all they did was remove a strip of cloth around her thigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Johann said: My beef with this take is that it's sort of an "All Lives Matter" type of response. Nobody was arguing that men being objectified isn't bad, but by making that a key part of your point, you're saying it's just as big of a problem. Choosing to respond to @Othin with "but don't forget about all the sexism men deal with" is pretty dismissive of her point that the objectification overwhelmingly and disproportionately targets female characters. Once again, I never said it's as big a problem. I think I've been needlessly clear with that point. Â Edited March 7, 2019 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Well, I'm rather pleased about Klein's weapon. Still, why 8 mt instead of 9 like Rein. Jerks. Sonia's is quite nice since her whole issue was getting her special going. Still not enough for me to want to build that rando Merric I got a while back. Sophia's refinement is nice, but the base effect is rather meh. Why not just give her an owl tome? Glad DA got treated just as well as base Aura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Because the games made before Awakening weren't designed as half dating sims meant to have at least one character appeal to every possible player and have every character appeal to at least one player, noting (as @Interdimensional Observer posted somewhere recently) that the male-female ratio in pre-3DS games was close to 2 to 1. The purpose of the game can be said to drive the character designs, and Heroes and the 3DS games have reasons to make more specifically-appealing characters than the older games did. I don't think there's anything to question about the absence of crop tops from the pre-3DS games, but it does highlight a disparity within the 3DS games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NegativeExponents- Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: That's not exactly a large change. She was already wearing close-fitting pants under her armor, and all they did was remove a strip of cloth around her thigh. Well it wouldn’t a large change to give some characters crop tops either. Just take Gerik and remove a bit of his lower shirt and Voila! You have a crop top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said: I ran some numbers last year on playables outside and FEH and gender ratios: Shadow Dragon: 14/59 = 23.7% female. Shadows of Valentia: 13/34 = 38.23% New Mystery of the Emblem: 24/78 = 30.77% Genealogy Gen 1: 9/24 = 37.5% Gen 2 (sans Subs and Finn) is 33.33%. Thracia 776: 17/52 = 32.69% Binding Blade (sans Trial Map characters): 19/54 = 35.19% Blazing Blade: 13/44 (counting N&N separately) = 29.55% Sacred Stones (sans Trial Map characters): 12/33 = 36.36% Radiant Dawn (sans BK, plus Largo): 25/73 = 34.24% Awakening (Excluding Einherjar, including both sexes of Robin and Morgan): 25/51 = 49.02% Fates in its entirety (counting the Corrin and Kana sexes separately): 34/69 = 49.28%  Awakening and Fates achieved gender parity, partly I think due to the marriage mechanic. Everything else lacks it. Being usually at ~1/3rd the roster.  As for FEH itself, I just finished counting everyone for you. I hope I got it right. Non-alts of any kind: Males 118 to Females 108 (47.79% Female). Alts of all kinds: Males 45 to Females 68 (39.82% Male). Added altogether, we get 339 units in FEH, of whom 51.92% are Female, and 48.08% Male.  Edit: I did forget someone- Surtr, but only one more guy isn't going to make a huge difference, so I'm not going to recalculate. -Actually, I forgot Arvis, Ylgr and Ethlyn too. I'll just post my lists for others to check them over if they wish: Male non-alt:  Reveal hidden contents Alfonse Hrid Surtr Marth Jagen Cain Abel Draug Gordin Luke Roderick Ogma Barst Jeorge Michalis Navarre Merric DE Hardin Camus Legion Wrys Gharnef Alm Lukas Tobin Gray Kliff Leon Clive Berkut Boey Saber Duma Sigurd Arden Quan Lewyn Jamke Eldigan Arvis Seliph Ares Julius Leif Finn Saias Reinhardt Roy Rutger Lugh Raigh Klein FE6 Bartre Narcian Zephiel Eliwood Hector Dorcas Matthew Raven Lucius Canas Hawkeye FE7 Karel Legault Jaffar Lloyd Linus Ephraim Seth Innes Joshua Lyon Valter PoR Ike Soren Oscar RD Sothe Tibarn Naesala Reyson Black Knight Oliver Chrom Male Robin Frederick Stahl Gaius Donnel Lon’qu Henry Virion Owain Gerome Male Morgan Walhart Male Corrin Gunter Jakob Silas Xander Leo Laslow Odin Niles Arthur of Fates Keaton Ryoma 109.Takumi Kaze Saizo Hinata Azama Subaki Kaden Male Kana Shigure Siegbert Shiro Garon Female non-alt:  Reveal hidden contents Sharena Anna of Askr Fjorm Gunnthra Ylgr Laegjarn Laevatein Eir Loki Caeda Linde Minerva Maria Palla Catria Est Sheena Young Tiki Katarina Clarisse Athena Celica Clair Mae Genny Sonya Delthea Faye Mathilda Deidre Julia Ayra Lachesis Ethlyn Silvia Tailtiu Lene Ishtar Nanna Lilina Shanna Thea Clarine Sue Gwendolyn Fir Cecilia Sophia Fae Idunn Lyn Serra Priscilla Rebecca Nino Ninian Florina Karla Ursula Eirika Lute L’Arachel Tana Amelia Marisa Myrrh Mist Titania Mia Elincia Leanne Nephenee Nailah Micaiah Lucina Female Robin Lissa Cordelia Sully Sumia Maribelle Olivia Cherche Adult Tiki Nowi Female Morgan Panne Aversa Female Corrin Azura Felicia Camilla Elise Peri Severa Beruka Effie Hinoka Sakura Kagero Oboro Setsuna Hana Female Kana Ophelia Soleil Velouria Nina Selkie Rhajat Male alt:  Reveal hidden contents Spring Alfonse NY Hrid Bride Marth Legendary Marth Legendary Roy Valentine’s Roy Valentine’s Eliwood Valentine’s Hector Brave Hector Legendary Hector Halloween Dorcas Xmas Ephraim Brave Ephraim Legendary Ephraim Summer Innes Valentine’s Ike Brave Ike Legendary Ike Valentine’s Soren Valentine’s Greil Zelgius Paladin Chrom Spring Chrom Xmas Chrom Male Grima Robin Xmas Male Robin Summer Frederick Summer Gaius Halloween Henry Performing Inigo Adrift Male Corrin NY M Corrin Halloween Jakob Halloween Niles Performing Shigure Spring Xander Summer Xander Yukata Xander Summer Leo Spa Ryoma Yukata Ryoma Legendary Ryoma NY Takumi Summer Takumi Fallen Takumi Female alt:  Reveal hidden contents Spring Sharena Brave Veronica NY Fjorm NY Gunnthra NY Laegjarn NY Laevatein Bride Caeda Summer Linde Spring Catria Summer Young Tiki Legendary Young Tiki Brave Celica Fallen Celica Valentine’s Lilina Xmas Cecilia Xmas Fae Valentine’s Lyn Bride Lyn Brave Lyn Legendary Lyn Flying Nino Bride Ninian Gleipnirika Legendary Eirika Xmas Eirika Summer Tana Halloween Myrrh Valentine’s Mist Valentine’s Titania Halloween Mia Yukata Elincia Yukata Micaiah Spring Lucina Masked Marth Brave Lucina Legendary Lucina Summer Female Robin Female Grima Robin Performing Olivia Flier Olivia Xmas Tharja Bride Tharja Bride Cordelia Summer Cordelia Halloween Nowi Summer Noire Summer Adult Tiki Adrift F Corrin Summer F Corrin NY Azura Performing Azura Adrift Azura Legendary Azura Summer Charlotte Adrift Mikoto Spring Kagero Halloween Kagero Bow Hinoka Spa Hinoka Spa Sakura Halloween Sakura Spa Elise Summer Elise NY Camilla Spa Camilla Spring Camilla Summer Camilla Adrift Camilla  So yeah, roughly 75:25% of the cast is male to female in the series but in Heroes it's close to 50:50%. That's pretty much exactly what I was assuming. That's only among the playable cast too, taking the major antagonists as part of the numbers would shift it slightly more. I did think Fates had a higher ratio of females than Awakening though (which, I guess it does, but only by a tiny amount). Edited March 7, 2019 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said: Well it wouldn’t a large change to give some characters crop tops either. Just take Gerik and remove a bit of his lower shirt and Voila! You have a crop top. I'm pretty sure pants to shorts is a smaller change than a shirt to a crop top. Noting that I change between pants and shorts over the course of a year, but never between a shirt and a crop top. Why, though? It's tried and true that zettai ryouiki sells. I still have yet to see anyone actually substantiate that crop tops are actually that sexy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Othin said: I forgot about Inigo, he's a good example. But yeah, strikingly few like that. Inigo seems pretty popular to me. And I'm sure plenty of people pulled green on PA, if only for Azura, so I highly doubt they found compelling evidence of crop tops being ineffective. It seems to me that they didn't give them a fair shot. My impression is that the main reason is that they feel crop tops and related sexy outfits would undermine the image of those characters as tough, serious fighters. Does that sound plausible to you? It is plausible, but I do not see why undermining their tough, serious image is a bad idea. If they can Hinoka in a bath towel, I do not see why they cannot put Ryoma or Xander in a crop top or even speedo.The only reason I can think of why they might not do that is that they think it might not sell well. FIH!Ryoma and FIH!Xander already do their silly Dances, and SF!Xander's outfit is rather embarrassing. 39 minutes ago, Tybrosion said: While all of this has been quite riveting, the update is available (for iOS at least) and, um: Â Reveal hidden contents 17 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: Still, why 8 mt instead of 9 like Rein. Jerks. Exactly! Why did they have to be so freaking petty against Brave units? Reinhartd's Atk is 32 while Klein's Atk is 31, not to mention Klein targets Def, generally the stronger of the two defenses. Chill Def is good, but not so good that it warrants a -1 to Mt. Even if he goes the quad Brave route, that Speed +3 is not really enough to let him compete against units like BB!Cordelia and Nina in my opinion. Edited March 7, 2019 by XRay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 46 minutes ago, Tybrosion said: While all of this has been quite riveting, the update is available (for iOS at least) and, um: Â Hide contents Can you spot the problem with this image? Hilariously unfortunate luck aside, I certainly approve of Klein's new toy. Sophia got a 14 raven tome like the Robins, and its refine effect is Def/Res+4 when unit is attacked. Dark Aura got Atk/Spd+5 during combat if within 2 spaces of a melee ally while Dark Excalibur got Special cooldown count -2 at start of turn 1. Eh...no? What's the problem? Oh wait I see, you personally have Chill Defense on him already XD.Haha.Hey, at least that shows you're thinking strategically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: Yes, I'm well aware of that. Hence why I'm asking for examples of male objectification because you did a great job of showing the standards for female objectification and male objectification are different, but you didn't do any job at all of giving an actual example of male objectification to actually compare anything against. I don't know where to shoot if you don't tell me where the goalpost is. In other words, "It's significantly harder to objectify men than women in a way," which makes entirely moot the argument that women are objectified more than men. If it is harder to objectify men in a way that is acceptable for the target audience, then it is obvious that they will be objectified less. Dude, I dunno how many times I gotta say this, but the only way I can give examples is by posting some NSFW shit that will probably get me in trouble. That I brought up yoai and boylesque should be enough to either give you a hint, or something to google. I can't believe how badly you're missing the point. There's a power dynamic present in every culture in society that on the whole benefits straight men over women and gay men. It's present in our social interactions, our media, everything. Even if an artist portrays a male character in his underwear, that's not enough to diminish that power dynamic-- in fact, many men feel sexually emboldened if they identify with that imagery. Conversely, portraying a woman in her underwear is often a means of exerting that power over the woman. The power dynamic covers the male viewer's reception of that portrayal. He has the power in the situation. Even if there is nothing submissive about the work or female character, she is still made an object for that male viewer to relish his power over. A social power. A sexual power. Do you understand any of this? Saying the matter is moot is a total failure to understand on your part, and if you're not gonna try to understand the discussion, then you should probably just move on. I'm not interested in explaining this to somebody who doesn't give a shit enough to listen and learn. 2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: One thing I've noticed over multiple arguments is the fact that one of the points I commonly hear is that women have more diverse tastes in the physical features of men. Whether or not that is true is not the point, but something I realize is that maybe the "problem" is just that the tastes of men in the physical features of women just happen to overlap a lot more on a small number of specific traits than the other way around (regardless of how diverse they actually are). For example, while preferences in hair color, hair style, eye color, clothing style and whatnot may be vastly different from man to man, "shows some thigh" is likely a net positive for a very large proportion of men. In contrast, it's probably harder to find specific physical traits that are positively received by the same large proportion of women. Maybe I'm just making that up, but with the points I hear during these arguments, it probably isn't too far from the truth. The point is that when someone personally objectifies a character, they are reducing them to basically their physical qualities and little else. The mistake you're making is that you're assuming the female audience is also reducing male characters to their physical qualities and little else. And yes, you are making that up. Stop making shit up. 2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said: To me those three more say isn't this a cute outfit that it'd be fun to wear than pay attention to how attractive I am. Then again, I also consider Claire to be one of the more attractive females recently and would actually consider winter Tharja the least sexualized Tharja due to how much of a joke it's played up as and that the overall art style doesn't seem as "sexy" to me. Not saying she's not, but regular and especially Bridal I find much more provocative. Out of curiosity, would you consider any of them? If you said it already and I missed it, my apologies. Yeah some of the seasonals are so absurd that it slips into meme territory, but it's still objectifying all the same Any of whom? Sorry, I lost track of which characters we were talking about. 1 hour ago, XRay said: If an attractive woman who is a stranger starts acting like that, I would be totally okay. I would feel very flattered. I think most men would be the same too. If I was a woman and a hot dude acts like that, I think I would be okay too. I am not sure about other women though. See, there's the thing: Many women would be very uncomfortable with that degree of sexually charged attention, due to the fact that they don't know who this guy is. Maybe he's a bad pick-up artist. Maybe he's going to flip out and assault her if she rejects his advances. You have to consider that, from the perspective of women, a random man can be a dangerous person. That is the life most women have to deal with, and they sure as hell didn't ask for it. Men are constantly exercising their privilege over women, and women can't turn the tables by simply turning their own behavior back on them, because it would fuel those men. For the same reason, you can't really objectify men by the same means women are objectified because it has the opposite effect. 1 hour ago, XRay said: Then SA!Noire and HS!Hinoka wearing bikinis and bath towels do not qualify as objectification either since those outfits do not make them any more attractive. However, since I like Camilla, anything she wears that makes her more sexually attractive would qualify as additional objectification. That is like no different from saying 2 is an odd number because it feels like an odd number. Ugh, we're back to square one, huh? Objectification isn't about whether they're more attractive or less, it's about a power dynamic. Noire is given absurdly large boobs for her frame and makes a back-breaking twist to shoot her bow for no reason other than her artist wanted to draw her that way. Hinoka's in a towel and nothing else for the same reason. Presume you had pictures of an attractive girl you knew where she just got out of the shower, wearing nothing but a towel. Do you not see how this plays into the power dynamic between you and this girl? 1 hour ago, XRay said: And there is nothing wrong with shoehorning sex appeal into characters that are not normally sexy. It would be like me reminding my friend that she has a boyfriend so she needs to dress more conservatively. If she wants to be a little flashy when she goes out, that is her decision. It is totally normal for Cecilia and Kagero to show off a little more cleavage. A common mistake in these kinds of discussions is to equate fictional characters with real people. Real people have the ability to make decisions. Fictional characters do not. Your friend can do whatever she wants because she's her own person. Cecilia and Kagero are images and sounds made by a group of creators, who made them that way because that's what they wanted. Cecilia and Kagero can't protest or change their mind or their clothes, but your friend can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Argent Bow gives +3 Spd relative to Fire Thunder, and has a Chill Def refine. And Dire Thunder is notoriously good already. I think losing 1 Mt is fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NegativeExponents- Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: I'm pretty sure pants to shorts is a smaller change than a shirt to a crop top. Noting that I change between pants and shorts over the course of a year, but never between a shirt and a crop top. Seems the same to me. Shorts are just shorter pants and crop tops are shorter shirts. 16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Why, though? It's tried and true that zettai ryouiki sells. I still have yet to see anyone actually substantiate that crop tops are actually that sexy. T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶u̶n̶t̶a̶p̶p̶e̶d̶ ̶p̶o̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶c̶r̶o̶p̶ ̶t̶o̶p̶s̶ I wasn’t really arguing that crop tops sell only that they could definitely implement them just as easily as those hot pants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) @Johann Legit took me a few minutes to remember too. It was spring Lucina and Sharena and summer Tana. Like to me, being a guy, their outfits seem more like something I personally would like to wear if I were a girl than outfits that play up their sex appeal. @XRay I was being a bit facetous, though it does seem like a random jab. Then again, they seem to have PTSD from Reinhardt and B!Lyn. As for the others, Klein is basically a mildly worse version of the two at worst (-3 atk from Cordy and -1 spd from Nina), but makes up for it by being able to potentially get another +7 attack and in a fashion that benefits his allies too. All in all, I'd say he did the best of this lot save maybe Dark Excalibur. Anyway, stats have been datamined from what I've seen. Spoiler Rutger is about what I worried he'd be, AKA, powercreep Navarre. He won't be bad, but the lack of an asset or personal weapon means he'll be relegated to like 5th string infantry sword what with the absurd glut of OP ones. Very nice art though. Idunn makes Duma feel really left out on the trainee bonus and in general looks quite impressive. Thea is basically +res Catria though Catria's personal weapon puts her ahead. Sue is actually a bit better than I expected, but basically inline. Basically slightly more speed and less res. Thought she'd be a cavalier version of Nina. It's a good thing she's green otherwise B!Lyn would really be out as the best Bow cav. Lugh is looking pretty solid statwise. Basically being his mom, but better in every way and even with enough res to potentially ploy somewhat decently. Any word on skills? Edited March 7, 2019 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Johann said: The point is that when someone personally objectifies a character, they are reducing them to basically their physical qualities and little else. I am going to disagree with that. GOW!Cecilia showing a bit of side boob does not make her any less of a Cecilia. 33 minutes ago, Johann said: See, there's the thing: Many women would be very uncomfortable with that degree of sexually charged attention, due to the fact that they don't know who this guy is. Maybe he's a bad pick-up artist. Maybe he's going to flip out and assault her if she rejects his advances. You have to consider that, from the perspective of women, a random man can be a dangerous person. That is the life most women have to deal with, and they sure as hell didn't ask for it. Men are constantly exercising their privilege over women, and women can't turn the tables by simply turning their own behavior back on them, because it would fuel those men. For the same reason, you can't really objectify men by the same means women are objectified because it has the opposite effect. 33 minutes ago, Johann said: Ugh, we're back to square one, huh? Objectification isn't about whether they're more attractive or less, it's about a power dynamic. Noire is given absurdly large boobs for her frame and makes a back-breaking twist to shoot her bow for no reason other than her artist wanted to draw her that way. Hinoka's in a towel and nothing else for the same reason. I understand the power dynamics part, but the underlined part sounds a little too extreme. It is like saying I cannot be racist against white people even if I make incest jokes because white people are more privileged than Asians. 33 minutes ago, Johann said: Presume you had pictures of an attractive girl you knew where she just got out of the shower, wearing nothing but a towel. Do you not see how this plays into the power dynamic between you and this girl? If anime and hentai are true, maybe that will work in Japan, but in the West, a dude having nude pics of a girl without consent would be labelled as a creep and filth and hopefully would be sent straight to prison. 33 minutes ago, Johann said: A common mistake in these kinds of discussions is to equate fictional characters with real people. Real people have the ability to make decisions. Fictional characters do not. Your friend can do whatever she wants because she's her own person. Cecilia and Kagero are images and sounds made by a group of creators, who made them that way because that's what they wanted. Cecilia and Kagero can't protest or change their mind or their clothes, but your friend can. Consent does not apply to fictional people. Fictional people cannot sue for damages and there is no real harm done. It also does not make sense to assume we know what these characters want anyways since they are not even real and we have no way of confirming their thoughts. If their creators want them to be in skimpy outfits, most people will view that the characters want to wear those skimpy outfits. It makes about as much sense as some Christians who say they know God's plan in detail and when Armageddon is coming. Nowhere in the Bible does it say when Armageddon is coming, not to mention fortune telling is blasphemy. 13 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: I was being a bit facetous, though it does seem like a random jab. Then again, they seem to have PTSD from Reinhardt and B!Lyn. As for the others, Klein is basically a mildly worse version of the two at worst (-3 atk from Cordy and -1 spd from Nina), but makes up for it by being able to potentially get another +7 attack and in a fashion that benefits his allies too. All in all, I'd say he did the best of this lot save maybe Dark Excalibur. I guess it is not too bad when you put it that way, but it still feels like Klein is cheated out of his 1 Mt. It is only 1 Mt, why so stingy? Edited March 7, 2019 by XRay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, Johann said: Saying the matter is moot is a total failure to understand on your part, and if you're not gonna try to understand the discussion, then you should probably just move on. I'm not interested in explaining this to somebody who doesn't give a shit enough to listen and learn. To save space: Spoiler I've not said that the matter is moot. I've said that the argument --- that particular point --- is moot. You're just not listening to my argument, which is the exact reason why this argument is a cesspool to begin with. Both sides dismiss the other side as "not listening". It's very clear that "more objectification of women than men" is an intermediate symptom and not a root cause, and it's also clear that "power dynamics in society" are not the only force behind it. As far as I can tell from this argument it is significantly harder to portray men in an objectifying way than it is to portray women because the things that are used to objectify women don't have the same objectifying effect on men. As you yourself has already argued, showing skin and having a good physical figure can result in the objectification of women, but you have to go further into "things you can't post in this forum" to give examples of objectification of men This essentially means that women are necessarily objectified more than men are because the objectification of men requires going farther outside of the realm of social acceptability, just like how there are necessarily more natural numbers less than 6 than there are natural numbers less than 10. So that that really seems to imply is that men have lower standards of women than women have of men. You can argue societal power dynamics and all, but if it's just plain easier for a man to be attracted to the image of a woman than the reverse, then it just comes down to the fact that the disproportional objectification of women compared to men is the result of men being more gullible easier to satisfy.  8 minutes ago, Johann said: The mistake you're making is that you're assuming the female audience is also reducing male characters to their physical qualities and little else. So you're basically saying that all men are objectifying women and that no women objectify men, which is clearly false. But that still feels like you're arguing that women objectify men less than men objectify women to begin with, which, again, supports my argument that all that means it that men are easier to satisfy than women.  14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: Any word on skills? Check the thread for the banner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: Legit took me a few minutes to remember too. It was spring Lucina and Sharena and summer Tana. Like to me, being a guy, their outfits seem more like something I personally would like to wear if I were a girl than outfits that play up their sex appeal. Uh, I mean sorta, Tana's swimsuit is pretty tight if I remember right, so it's more of a case of the outfit being given tweaked just a bit more. I've gotta get some sleep so I don't have time to look at them all right now though. 12 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: Any word on skills? For Rutger? Atk/Def Bond and Vantage, Vengeance. Little less than I'd hoped for, but whatever. More interested in how his voice sounds at this point. 3 minutes ago, XRay said: I am going to disagree with that. GOW!Cecilia showing a bit of side boob does not make her any less of a Cecilia. Try not to mistake an artist objectifying a character compared to a player objectifying them. What I typed up for Ice is referring to players objectifying characters. In your example, it's the artist objectifying Cecila. 3 minutes ago, XRay said: I understand the power dynamics part, but the underlined part sounds a little too extreme. It is like saying I cannot be racist against white people even if I make incest jokes because white people are more privileged than Asians. It's nothing at all like that. The social dynamic between white people an Asian people is completely different from the dynamic between men and women. Trying to compare them is going to get absurd statements like the one you made. 3 minutes ago, XRay said: If anime and hentai are true, maybe that will work in Japan, but in the West, a dude having nude pics of a girl without consent would be labelled as a creep and filth and hopefully would be sent straight to prison. That one really went over your head, huh? The point of the girl in the towel picture scenario is that, whether she were aware or not, if you had pictures like that, you have a form of power over her. Of course it's illegal, but illegal shit happens all the time, especially in the realm of sexual assault. That's part of it-- the nature of sexuality is not so concrete that we have universally agreed rules, which is why so many sexual assault cases are dismissed or ignored, even when there's proof. 3 minutes ago, XRay said: Consent does not apply to fictional people. Fictional people cannot sue for damages and there is no real harm done. It also does not make sense to assume we know what these characters want anyways since they are not even real and we have no way of confirming their thoughts. If their creators want them to be in skimpy outfits, most people will view that the characters want to wear those skimpy outfits. Ugh you're killing me dude. It's not about consent. There's none to give. It is simply the creators wanted to put them in revealing outfits, sexual poses, and/or scenes in which to worship the player. They have no fucking thoughts. It's just pictures and voices clips. You're completely missing the point again: Don't compare real people to fictional characters, they don't follow the same rules. 3 minutes ago, XRay said: It makes about as much sense as some Christians who say they know God's plan in detail and when Armageddon is coming. Nowhere in the Bible does it say when Armageddon is coming, not to mention fortune telling is blasphemy. what the hell does this have to do with anything nevermind don't answer, it doesn't matter and I don't care ================================================================================ 19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: I've not said that the matter is moot. I've said that the argument --- that particular point --- is moot. You're just not listening to my argument, which is the exact reason why this argument is a cesspool to begin with. Both sides dismiss the other side as "not listening". Your argument is garbage and based on misconstruing my argument. It's strawman nonsense and shows you're not listening at all. 19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: It's very clear that "more objectification of women than men" is an intermediate symptom and not a root cause, and it's also clear that "power dynamics in society" are not the only force behind it. I think the thing I hate most about you is how nonchalantly you downplay sexism 19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: As far as I can tell from this argument it is significantly harder to portray men in an objectifying way than it is to portray women because the things that are used to objectify women don't have the same objectifying effect on men. As you yourself has already argued, showing skin and having a good physical figure can result in the objectification of women, but you have to go further into "things you can't post in this forum" to give examples of objectification of men Fuck off with this baiting me to post NSFW shit on this forum. I don't owe you shit, hop on Google and educate yourself 19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: This essentially means that women are necessarily objectified more than men are because the objectification of men requires going farther outside of the realm of social acceptability, just like how there are necessarily more natural numbers less than 6 than there are natural numbers less than 10. So that that really seems to imply is that men have lower standards of women than women have of men. You can argue societal power dynamics and all, but if it's just plain easier for a man to be attracted to the image of a woman than the reverse, then it just comes down to the fact that the disproportional objectification of women compared to men is the result of men being more gullible easier to satisfy. It's not about attraction. It's about power. It's always been about power. It is about possessing women and treating them as objects to be used for personal gratification. Objectification exists in this way because men enjoy exerting power over women, from which they can get themselves off whenever they want. This desire to possess a woman is the reason people commit sexual assault, rape, etc instead of actually building a healthy relationship built on mutual respect. Creators drawing sexualized cartoon womens is them exercising that control on a different level. Those drawings are their possession. They can make their boobs as big as they want, and have them say whatever dirty things they want. It probably wouldn't be such a big deal if it weren't for the fact that this shit is everywhere. Hollywood, anime, games, everything, everywhere. Real women are treated like shit (cat called, assaulted, etc) just for being women, and they can't win; take too little effort in your appearance and you're an uggo who can't get any recognition, go all out and you're a whore who's doing it all for the attention. So maybe just for a moment you can stop and consider that there's some serious fucking imbalance with the way the world treats half its population and that these big ol' anime boobies are a symptom of that imbalance. Or you can just think "huh, women, so hard to satisfy, am I right fellas?" Also fuck you 12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: So that that really seems to imply is that men have lower standards of women than women have of men. That's not implied at all and a ridiculous take. 11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: So you're basically saying that all men are objectifying women and that no women objectify men, which is clearly false. Not even close dude. I ain't typing all this shit over again. Go back and reread it or give up on this because it's apparently too complex for you. 11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: But that still feels like you're arguing that women objectify men less than men objectify women to begin with, which, again, supports my argument that all that means it that men are easier to satisfy than women. Terrible. I don't know why I'm bothering responding to you at all if you're going to keep pulling these dumb shit conclusions out of your ass. Fucking done with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Emblem Fan Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said: Â Â Hide contents Sue is actually a bit better than I expected, but basically inline. Basically slightly more speed and less res. Thought she'd be a cavalier version of Nina. It's a good thing she's green otherwise B!Lyn would really be out as the best Bow cav. Â Eh I disagree. She has the same BST as B!Lyn, but she doesn't have access to Sacae's Blessing; that alone puts Lyn above Sue, and any future bow cavaliers are gonna be pretty hard-pressed to be on par with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 58 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: It's very clear that "more objectification of women than men" is an intermediate symptom and not a root cause, and it's also clear that "power dynamics in society" are not the only force behind it. This is precisely the argument I was trying to make. I think you phrased it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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