Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[bethany81707]

Anyway, checking the Bonus List, next Arena Season's free batch is Sophia/Gunter/Alfonse. I've got a 4*+ Sophia I'd be down for using, my Alfonse has just been promoted to 5*, and I got an Inigo anyway- though he's nowhere near countering Reinhardt (don't you need T-Adept for that?).

I don't think I need to care about the two miscellaneous Heroes or the GHB slot.

Edited October 2, 2017 by phineas81707

[Interdimensional Observer]

21 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The big difference is in pokemon hacking is pretty much allowed

And Nintendo would never permit it in Heroes since it'd destroy their profits off the game. It isn't like there is much of a reason to hack characters either, since true PvP doesn't exist and would have a slew of issues implementing well. It'd also drive Ice Dragon to the brink of insanity since if hacking were permissible, they'd be like "Why have I wasted a year's salary on this stupid gaaaaammmmeee?!!!!!!!"

[bethany81707]

Also, @Rezzy, you said your Inigo was +Res -Atk? Might actually be better than my +Atk -Res: takes less damage from Reiny and doesn't lose any bulk for dealing with Lyn. +Spd -Atk might be Inigo's favoured nature...

[eclipse]

25 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Anyway, checking the Bonus List, next Arena Season's free batch is Sophia/Gunter/Alfonse. I've got a 4*+ Sophia I'd be down for using, my Alfonse has just been promoted to 5*, and I got an Inigo anyway- though he's nowhere near countering Reinhardt (don't you need T-Adept for that?).

I don't think I need to care about the two miscellaneous Heroes or the GHB slot.

I smell Horse Emblem.  Gunter is THE source of Hone Cavalry.

[Rezzy]

34 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Anyway, checking the Bonus List, next Arena Season's free batch is Sophia/Gunter/Alfonse. I've got a 4*+ Sophia I'd be down for using, my Alfonse has just been promoted to 5*, and I got an Inigo anyway- though he's nowhere near countering Reinhardt (don't you need T-Adept for that?).

I don't think I need to care about the two miscellaneous Heroes or the GHB slot.

Oh, did they release the list, or is that just the pattern?

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I smell Horse Emblem. 

Which smells like manure.

And when it isn't it Viva la Horse Emblem!

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

47 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Only in Smogen, not in the official matches.

Plz Wolf Glicke openly admits he hacked. And where do you think the world 2016 champ got his follow me Magmar 

 

Nintendo rule basically works out as "pass our security check and anything is fair game" and bypassing it with hacks boils down into clicking a button or two and knowing in advance what is possible

Edited October 2, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Oh, did they release the list, or is that just the pattern?

That's just the free ones I mentioned. The free Heroes are on a predictable rotation- it's the miscellaneous Heroes and the GHB slot that's less so. I'm expecting we'll see Clarisse as this season's GHB slot, if only because she's the only GHB that's appeared since Robin (F)'s and I don't see the Black Knight showing up.

[Rezzy]

1 minute ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Plz Wolf Glicke openly admits he hacked. And where do you think the champ of 2016 got his follow up Magmar in previous season

 

Nintendo rule basically works out as "pass our security check and anythinfg is fair game"

I guess times have changed.  Back in my day, they at least pretended to care.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Just now, Rezzy said:

I guess times have changed.  Back in my day, they at least pretended to care.

The problem with hack stopping in pokemon is just that its ridiculously easy to hack a "technically legit" pokemon. Even if they perfected their system, its borderline impossible to really know what is hacked and what isnt due to the mechanic being open to everyone. A hacked mon doesnt look luch different to rng abused mon(they would have suspicious d/m/y date and thats about it)

 

That said to answer your other question theres actually a list for rotation of Hero Battle

[bethany81707]

4 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

That said to answer your other question theres actually a list for rotation of Hero Battle

@Rezzy This one, to be precise.

Season 10 added the Hero Battle Heroes, and since then the rotation has been fixed.

[Troykv]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

I guess times have changed.  Back in my day, they at least pretended to care.

I don't think there is a problem with creating perfect IV Pokemon... the problem comes if you do things that are impossible (like give Pokemon attacks that they can't learn, or give to the Pokemon 252 EVs in every stat.).

Edited October 2, 2017 by Troykv

[Ice Dragon]

@DehNutCase

Exactly how many times do I have to tell you that movement-type buffs are out of the picture in the main tier list? Whether or not they should be considered is not the issue here because the authors of the tier list have already decided that they are not to be considered.

As such, Def Ploy is a skill that benefits both the unit carrying the skill and the unit's teammates and is both comparable in effect to Hone Atk and stacks with Hone Atk. It isn't a skill that can be assumed to be carried by a teammate under the constraints of the rating criteria because not all teammates can use the skill with equal effectiveness. It also isn't a skill that can be assumed to be carried by the unit itself because the tier list still assumes that each unit has three teammates and that only the one with the highest Res will run Def Ploy if at all (which is the obvious way to split up buffs and debuffs within a team).

Your arguments are straying from the constraints that the tier list assumes with some combination of ignoring the constraints and questioning the constraints themselves, neither of which are relevant in this discussion. Est is not a "better-than-Eirika-tier buffer" when her allies cannot be assumed to be flying units. There's a separate tier list for that, and said tier list is not the one we're currently discussing.

 

Also, Leo's performance with +6/6/6/6 is worse than Tharja's with +4/4/0/0. His player phase is notably inferior with only a better enemy phase (only when running Close Counter) and better mobility as his advantages. He doesn't deserve S+.

 

@Rezzy

Taking availability into account is a tricky subject because it's difficult to measure availability in a system where it is based on pure luck and where availability is a binary "do you have this" or "do you not have this".

As such, the authors need to determine how to value availability for any tier list they write because it will be vastly different based on that decision. This is why there are three separate tier lists on Gamepedia, one for infinite resources, one for infinite resources with movement-type buffs, and one for no-5-star-Skill-Inheritance.

You can set up arbitrary benchmarks in between (like no limited characters), but that's extra work for the authors to maintain. You can basically assume that any unit will fall somewhere between its free-to-play ranking and its infinite-resources ranking for any benchmark in between.

[bethany81707]

19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Taking availability into account is a tricky subject because it's difficult to measure availability in a system where it is based on pure luck and where availability is a binary "do you have this" or "do you not have this".

I'll expand on this with the fact I have never pulled Roy, and thus most of my T-Adept builds are my Raven trinity that only go to T-Adept 2 thanks to Selena. Whenever people suggest a Triangle Adept build, I'm not likely to actually use it thanks to this (also, my Selena stock has been pretty limited, even for Reposition).

Granted, a skill limited to a seasonal colourless unit that shared a banner with another colourless unit that only got it's potential discussed when the banner elapsed is probably a candidate for the rarest skill in the game, but in the moment, Triangle Adept is a rare skill in my game, and the fact that, statistically, I probably should have at least one Roy doesn't change that.

[Kiran]

I wonder if they are going to release a monthly schedule for October? I want to know if we're going to get a mini-TT this month and what GHBs we're going to get.

[The Lord Of Gems]

So....... When's the next Voting Gauntlet? It's been a while since the last one.

[Vaximillian]

34 minutes ago, Noble Of Pherae said:

So....... When's the next Voting Gauntlet? It's been a while since the last one.

Hopefully never.

[DehNutCase]

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Also, Leo's performance with +6/6/6/6 is worse than Tharja's with +4/4/0/0. His player phase is notably inferior with only a better enemy phase (only when running Close Counter) and better mobility as his advantages. He doesn't deserve S+.

Leos +6 all stats matchups is the same as Tharja's +4/+4 except he's tankier. (Taking CC over L&D makes his offensive matchups worse, of course, but if offensive matchups is the only thing that matters then Leo takes L&D over CC.)

Edit: Ah, wait, you're looking at the +10 merge level matchups, aren't you? Leo does do worse there because his bulk advantage get negated due to everyone getting +4 hp, taking Tharja out of a lot of OHKOs. Even then 6 less wins isn't exactly 'notably inferior' considering it's 147 vs. 153.

And, outside of matchups (which Leo ties in if that's what you care for), Leo's still better in ever way: Better mobility, better support (Class Buff access to give to other people & 3 move reposition), better spread of available sets (Tharja can run the CC set, just not nearly as well), etc.

 

Even in the regular tier-list, horse reach reposition should place him above average---it basically boosts the mobility of everyone on the team, something armors can't do without being in armor emblem and paying C-slots. (And even then the mobility given is still worse than just being infantry naturally or having a horse with a mobility assist nearby.) Yeah, he'll be playing a niche role with TA-3 Raven Axe-breaker or something, but it's still a useful niche, and a useful niche unit with an excellent assist skill is still better than armors in general, who are niche units with terrible assists.

 

If Leo doesn't deserve S+, then, by definition, everyone worse than him should be below S, and that's basically everyone except Reinhardt. (Lyn can't be S+ because the amount of sets she can run is too limited, even if she fills a very useful niche.)

This is the same list that places Effie without armor emblem buffs S+ tier. (She's S+ with armor emblem buffs too, but you can't really go down from having buff access.)

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

@DehNutCase

Exactly how many times do I have to tell you that movement-type buffs are out of the picture in the main tier list? Whether or not they should be considered is not the issue here because the authors of the tier list have already decided that they are not to be considered.

As such, Def Ploy is a skill that benefits both the unit carrying the skill and the unit's teammates and is both comparable in effect to Hone Atk and stacks with Hone Atk. It isn't a skill that can be assumed to be carried by a teammate under the constraints of the rating criteria because not all teammates can use the skill with equal effectiveness. It also isn't a skill that can be assumed to be carried by the unit itself because the tier list still assumes that each unit has three teammates and that only the one with the highest Res will run Def Ploy if at all (which is the obvious way to split up buffs and debuffs within a team).

Your arguments are straying from the constraints that the tier list assumes with some combination of ignoring the constraints and questioning the constraints themselves, neither of which are relevant in this discussion. Est is not a "better-than-Eirika-tier buffer" when her allies cannot be assumed to be flying units. There's a separate tier list for that, and said tier list is not the one we're currently discussing.

I also mentioned his movement buff rating: Still worse than Effie & Hector without movement buffs, nevermind their atrocious support capabilities, and worse than lots of random people with.

 

Regarding Constraints: You mean, the ones that only factor in skill-slots if you want to deliberately lower or raise a unit on the list? Def ploy is around as useful as Goad or Drive Atk at best, because Goad and Drive Atk hit both sides and have more uptime, yet you don't see units going up because Goad or Drive exist. (Which high mobility units should, for the same reason Def Ploy should increase high mobility units---they're the unit that can carry these support skills reliably, because they're the ones that can reliably be in the needed positions without sacrificing their turn.) Goad is explained away with the 'ah, but we're not including class buffs' constraint, and drive is explained away because: 'we just want to inflate some random units tiers.'

The only reason we don't use Goad or Drive often is because they cost skill-slots, which are better used on Hone Type and Fort Type, and that they're unreliable when it comes to positioning, and thus better on high mobility units, yet Def Ploy gets a free pass. Putting Def Ploy on Est herself and having her 2 squares away from the enemy is the same as putting Def Ploy on a mage and having the mage 3 squares from the enemy---the mage's reach is now equal to Est's, or still better if it's a horse mage---for the same effect. Est has no reason to rise due to Def Ploy if Leo doesn't rise.

I'm not saying give Leo Res Ploy (only idiots run Res Ploy), I'm saying give Leo Def Ploy. If Est can rise due to Def Ploy then Leo should rise, because he's a better carrier.

I've already said Def Ploy can only benefit the unit's teammates if the unit itself has high reach---4 reach, ideally 5---because otherwise it's a rally attack. No one says X should go up a tier because they can run Rally Attack, sacrifice a turn to give another unit 4 extra attack. Yeah, it's nice that you don't have to use an assist slot for it, but you used up a C-slot, an arguably more valuable slot for support skills, because that's where Hones, Drives, Goads etc. go.

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Def ploy is around as useful as Goad or Drive Atk at best, because Goad and Drive Atk hit both sides and have more uptime, yet you don't see units going up because Goad or Drive exist.

Perfect play (or near-perfect play), which is something that should be expected when constructing a tier list, means your opponent's turn ends with the opponent you want to Def Ploy literally sitting 3 squares away from you in an orthogonal direction because you should be tailoring your play to the attack ranges of your units and not playing as if your team consists of units you aren't using.

Perhaps you might not be used to using melee units with 2 movement range, but that doesn't mean other players aren't used to it and can't do things you might have trouble doing. Fighting game tier lists don't take into account a player who hasn't practiced the character, and a Heroes tier list shouldn't take into account players who don't know how to position their units properly and manipulate the AI to do what they want it to do

.

Drive Atk does not affect the unit that has the skill and can be run by any unit with equal efficacy, which is why it doesn't make any difference in the tier list.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

Hopefully never.

You know you want to see Sigurd in one... so he can lose

[Vaximillian]

23 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

You know you want to see Sigurd in one... so he can lose

Let’s do a myrmidon ladies gauntlet!

Wait, let me recall the myrmidon ladies first.

Ayra, Larcei, Creidne, Mareeta, Machyua (pls localise her Nintendo), Fir, Karla, Marisa, Ismaire, Mia, Malice, Athena, Say’ri, Hana, and that’s it?

13 myrmigirls across 15 games, not that bad.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Vaximillian

[DehNutCase]

51 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Perfect play (or near-perfect play), which is something that should be expected when constructing a tier list, means your opponent's turn ends with the opponent you want to Def Ploy literally sitting 3 squares away from you in an orthogonal direction because you should be tailoring your play to the attack ranges of your units and not playing as if your team consists of units you aren't using.

Perhaps you might not be used to using melee units with 2 movement range, but that doesn't mean other players aren't used to it and can't do things you might have trouble doing. Fighting game tier lists don't take into account a player who hasn't practiced the character, and a Heroes tier list shouldn't take into account players who don't know how to position their units properly and manipulate the AI to do what they want it to do

.

Drive Atk does not affect the unit that has the skill and can be run by any unit with equal efficacy, which is why it doesn't make any difference in the tier list.

Defense teams can be constructed so that it's impossible to have a melee unit in melee range without being hit first---reposition and proper dancer positioning can do that: You either get hit or the leader unit retreats out of melee range from someone behind him using draw back or reposition. Yes, you can compensate for this during teambuilding, by packing more enemy phase units, but every weakness that needs to be compensated for is a cost in teambuilding.

Tier lists should take into account the fact that there are things that 2 move melee units simply can't do, like the fact that there are things that 1 move melee units simply can't do. A 2 move melee unit cannot: Def Ploy a ranged unit without being hit, and then attack the unit next to said ranged unit, because that'll take 3 movement points. (A unit in front of said ranged unit is hittable, of course.)

You can't just go: Oh, if we do X always then Y's weakness in Z isn't relevant, therefore we should pretend we're always doing X. Sometimes you need to do A, B, or C rather than X. The fact that a certain lineup can't do A, B, and C, and therefore needs to always do X isn't an advantage.

 

Regarding Drive Atk: Now you're falling into the 'C-slot is free' trap again. The cost of Def Ploy isn't to the unit itself---it's to their allies. Def Ploy on Est is a Hone Atk that can't be in that slot, mean every single one of her allies now gets less buffs. Def Ploy on S!Corrin is the same way, except S!Corrin is one of the people you want to be buffed, so you lose less giving Def Ploy to her.

People Est can buff with a C-slot, assuming a team of 2 mage fliers, 1 Est and 1 dancer:

2 Mage Fliers, 1 dancer.

People S!Corrin can buff with a C-slot, assuming the same team:

Est, Mage Flier, Dancer.

 

 

In what universe is it better to miss out buffing 2 mage fliers rather than 1 melee flier and 1 mage flier? Mages benefit the most from C-slot buffs yet you deliberately tweak the team to make it harder to buff them? Def Ploy is bad enough without deliberately gimping the way you can buff your team.

 

Hell, let's give a more obvious example:

A team of 1 archer, 2 fliers, 1 dancer (let's say it's Est and S!Corrin for the fliers):

People Est can buff:
S!Corrin, archer, dancer.

People S!Corrin can buff:
Est, archer, dancer.

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?
 

Giving Ploy to S!Corrin means that, while she can't buff Est, the archer, or the dancer, she's also debuffing in the same direction that she would've been buffing.

Giving Ploy to Est means that you're deliberately making S!Corrin worse to make Est look better for some freaking reason. (Any unit will look better if you give them a 2 C-slot advantage when it comes to taking buffs.)

 

In what universe is it better to buff the person with less reach? Matchups don't matter unless you can get to them, and S!Corrin is strictly better at getting to matchups than Est.

Edit: And you know the best part of giving S!Corrin Def Ploy?

It means you don't have to run Est. You can run a flier with a better spread in her slot. (Like, say, Cherche who has 38 Atk.)

Edited October 2, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MrSmokestack]

2 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Hopefully never.

I wouldn’t mind if they never came back honestly.

I didn’t think it was possible to create so much cancer in the process of grinding for ranking feathers.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I wouldn’t mind if they never came back honestly.

I didn’t think it was possible to create so much cancer in the process of grinding for ranking feathers.

Did something happened with VG lol

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

8 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Did something happened with VG lol

They must still be salty about Lyn vs Camilla...