Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[Johann]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You can bet that every character in Heroes is very carefully designed to be as widely appealing to as many people as possible. Like I said, even Gharnef got the sexy treatment. No, it's not nearly as overt with men as it is with women, and it manifests itself in a variety of ways, but it's still very much there. The issue isn't that "People don't respect women enough" the issue is that objectification sells because one of the biggest things people care about it looks. Ignoring that is basically saying it's only wrong when it happens to women, which is basically how negative male gender issues have been treated since the dawn of time. This thread started because people were saying they're disappointed Amalda isn't objectified enough to get into Heroes. Direct parallel, I wish Blume would get into Heroes because he'd be an armoured mage and I think some of the subtler aspects of his character are interesting. But he stands virtually 0% chance of getting in because he's one of the least popular characters in the entire franchise which comes mostly down to the fact that he's an angry looking old guy (without a monocle).

It's not about whether they're appealing or not, it's about how they're represented. That "objectification sells because one of the biggest things people care about is looks" is directly caused by people not respecting women enough. This isn't an equal problem between male and female character, it's not even close. It's so normalized with female characters that most people aren't even willing to consider that it is an issue, or that it's so widespread. Male objectification is not a rampant problem, certainly not in Fire Emblem.

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The "cesspool" is because this is one of those arguments where neither side is willing to budge on their stance. It's an argument that cannot resolve because continuing the discussion tends to make each side more confident of their position rather than bring the sides to common ground.

I suppose that's true, but as I see it, one side is trying to dismiss or downplay the other's argument and ignore their points, no matter how salient, responding with things like "both sides" fallacies

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Johann said:

It's not about whether they're appealing or not, it's about how they're represented. That "objectification sells because one of the biggest things people care about is looks" is directly caused by people not respecting women enough. This isn't an equal problem between male and female character, it's not even close. It's so normalized with female characters that most people aren't even willing to consider that it is an issue, or that it's so widespread. Male objectification is not a rampant problem, certainly not in Fire Emblem.

I suppose that's true, but as I see it, one side is trying to dismiss or downplay the other's argument and ignore their points, no matter how salient, responding with things like "both sides" fallacies

I never said it was an equal problem. In fact, I repeatedly said that it does cut harder in the female direction. But saying that it's only misogynistic and is irrelevant when it comes to male characters is like saying the death of one person is irrelevant compared to all the wars being waged. Ie, a little bit of a bad thing is fine, we should only do something about it when there's a lot of it. The same forces are at work on all the characters, and that's the issue. If a character wants to get into heroes, how attractive they are or how attractive they can be redesigned to be is a major factor.

Even taking exclusively females into account, consider the fact that the ratio of males to females in Heroes is roughly equal (at least it seems to me, I haven't bothered counting) while the total number of male to female ratio in the series is scews towards male. In an impartial system, that would mean the same ratio would be present in Heroes but it's not. Being waifu material doesn't just net a chance for a character to get in over other female characters, it gives them the ability to get in over a very large number of male characters too. 

7 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

There are only 3 cats and two of them are very popular. The other is Lyre and she's furry waifu.

It's the tigers we might not see a lot of (unless you included them when you said "cat"). 

Yes, I meant Tigers too, and also Grifca and Skimir as well (but not Caineghis, I'm sure we'll see him and Ranulf eventually).

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Vince777]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

Beasts are a full weapon type with four colours. I'm sure they'll try to add every canon type aside from maybe some of the cats for the sake of variety eventually. 

 

There are only 3 cats and two of them are very popular. The other is Lyre and she's furry waifu.

It's the tigers we might not see a lot of (unless you included them when you said "cat"). 

[Tybrosion]

16 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although we have three Legendary Sword Infantry (thanks Roy), and Masked Marth, they haven't done a single Seasonal Sword Infantry yet either. For the better of course.

Yeah and for all the seasonal banners there have been, there’s only four seasonal swords total plus a year-long gap between the first and the second and third.

As for the sword infantry legends, I suppose it couldn’t be helped since none of those three were any movement type except infantry in their home games along with two of them also being locked to swords.

[Vince777]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I never said it was an equal problem. In fact, I repeatedly said that it does cut harder in the female direction. But saying that it's only misogynistic and is irrelevant when it comes to male characters is like saying the death of one person is irrelevant compared to all the wars being waged. The same forces are at work on all the characters, and that's the issue. If a character wants to get into heroes, how attractive they are or how attractive they can be redesigned to be is a major factor.

Yes, I meant Tigers too, and also Grifca and Skimir as well (but not Caineghis, I'm sure we'll see him and Ranulf eventually).

I've always liked the design of Giffca as a huge black lion so hopefully someone at IS is similarly engrossed with his looks. Skrimir is a pretty important character, I feel. 

They are probably in a much better spot than the remaining hawks/ravens/tigers. 

 

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I've always liked the design of Giffca as a huge black lion so hopefully someone at IS is similarly engrossed with his looks. Skrimir is a pretty important character, I feel. 

They are probably in a much better spot than the remaining hawks/ravens/tigers. 

 

Skrimir is important, but he's also discount Caineghis which makes me less certain about his inclusion. The rest of the birds aren't all that popular, but I think they stand a better chance purely out of unit diversity. I don't really expect IS to include birds in their inital banner and then never release another bird beast unit again in the history of game. They still might though. Don't think it was really a great idea to blow their load so early with both Tibarn and Naesala in the debut banner (and having two Herons was completely redundant).

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Vince777]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Skrimir is important, but he's also discount Caineghis which makes me less certain about his inclusion. The rest of the birds aren't all that popular, but I think they stand a better chance purely out of unit diversity. I don't really expect IS to include birds in their inital banner and then never release another bird beast unit again in the history of game. They still might though. Don't think it was really a great idea to blow their load so early with both Tibarn and Naesala in the debut banner (and having two Herons was completely redundant).

When they released both Tibarn and Naesala right off the bat, I started doubting the other birds would get included. As later units generally outclass older ones, wouldn't it be weird to have both of them outshined by the bird non-royals? 

I wouldn't mind Skrimir being on Caineghis's power level in Heroes though considering he does grow during the game and eventually sets himself to become king.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Vince777

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

When they released both Tibarn and Naesala right off the bat, I started doubting the other birds would get included. As later units generally outclass older ones, wouldn't it be weird to have both of them outshined by the bird non-royals? 

I wouldn't mind Skrimir being on Caineghis's power level in Heroes though considering he does grow during the game and eventually sets himself to become king.

It depends on how they function. If say, Janeff or Ulki were dedicated flying buffer units (would make sense as they're expert reconnoiters), then they'd still be really useful without threading on Tibarn or Naesala's niche.

2 hours ago, Cute Chao said:

@Othin

That's why I was so sad he didn't make it on the previous beasts banner xD 

Sadly, I just don't think he's popular enough, unless they go with the route of adding in every canon beast... He's good looking, at least, so he has that going for him, but not waifu...

Going back to Volug as we were discussing a while back, he could also get into a banner with Tauroneo, Jill and Zihark, with Izuka being a Grand Hero Battle (and maybe Pelleas in Tepmest Trials if they're feeling generous). The theme obviously being all the people you meet at that point in Radiant Dawn. Defenders of the King or something.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Johann]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I never said it was an equal problem. In fact, I repeatedly said that it does cut harder in the female direction. But saying that it's only misogynistic and is irrelevant when it comes to male characters is like saying the death of one person is irrelevant compared to all the wars being waged. The same forces are at work on all the characters, and that's the issue. If a character wants to get into heroes, how attractive they are or how attractive they can be redesigned to be is a major factor.

Let me reiterate then; even if creators apply the exact same qualities when designing objectified male and female characters, the reactions are always going to be different because of how men and women are viewed and treated differently in the world. What's misogynistic is that when sexualization or objectification happen to women, many people don't even notice because it's omnipresent, and then when someone complains about it, other people respond with excuses like "well what do you expect, sex sells" or "I don't see the problem". When it happens to men, people make a big fuss because they're not conditioned to seeing it.

The bottom line is that the "attractiveness" thing is disproportionately catering to straight male players, at the expense of everyone else, and to the detriment of the quality of female characters.

[DraceEmpressa]

tbh all of this talk about objectification have the same basis  as why there is power creep. There is buyer so there will be market and not the other way around. If there is no buyer, the market will die on itself. So what must be eliminated is the consumer base, not the market. The problem is, is that possible or not?

That the FEH units are not only selling sex appeal, but also simply usability as unit with minimum to no regard to personality as character  is baffling to me. Many units can have better personality with their alts, or their appearance in FEH, but no, since sex appeal and unit usability is enough to sell , they don't bother to improve the personality. 

How Surtr and Reinhardt  gets into top 20 males in CYL3 shows how minimum people cares for personality as well, and it upsets me, same like Legendary Azura. Her design make me hope she will shed some light to Valla, or mention about Arete, but no, her lines basically sums up as "I sing and I'm a sociopath who doesn't care of other countries fell as long I keep my mouth shut and can destroy Anankos" . 

In real life, personality matters more than looks or skills, but that's what sells in video games, so companies will be milking it. but again, since sex appeal and unit usability is enough to sell , they don't bother to improve the personality.  And said lack of concern to personality will always baffles me, but who am I I alone can't eliminate the  consumer base.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Johann said:

Let me reiterate then; even if creators apply the exact same qualities when designing objectified male and female characters, the reactions are always going to be different because of how men and women are viewed and treated differently in the world. What's misogynistic is that when sexualization or objectification happen to women, many people don't even notice because it's omnipresent, and then when someone complains about it, other people respond with excuses like "well what do you expect, sex sells" or "I don't see the problem". When it happens to men, people make a big fuss because they're not conditioned to seeing it.

The bottom line is that the "attractiveness" thing is disproportionately catering to straight male players, at the expense of everyone else, and to the detriment of the quality of female characters.

Perhaps you missed the edited part of my comment. I'll paste here again.

Even taking exclusively females into account, consider the fact that the ratio of males to females in Heroes is roughly equal (at least it seems to me, I haven't bothered counting) while the total number of male to female ratio in the series scews towards male. In an impartial system, that would mean the same ratio would be present in Heroes but it's not. Being waifu material doesn't just net a chance for a character to get in over other female characters, it gives them the ability to get in over a very large number of male characters too. 

In other words not just at the detriment of the quality of female characters. It's to the detriment of all characters. Six sexy Camillas doesn't mean five other female characters can't get in the game. It means five other characters period don't get into the game, regardless of their gender. And I'm not sure what you mean by when it happens to men people make a big fuss about it, because objectification happens to men all the time and people don't even notice it precisely because people don't make a fuss about it.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, DraceEmpressa said:

tbh all of this talk about objectification have the same basis  as why there is power creep. There is buyer so there will be market and not the other way around. If there is no buyer, the market will die on itself. So what must be eliminated is the consumer base, not the market. The problem is, is that possible or not?

That the FEH units are not only selling sex appeal, but also simply usability as unit with minimum to no regard to personality as character  is baffling to me. Many units can have better personality with their alts, or their appearance in FEH, but no, since sex appeal and unit usability is enough to sell , they don't bother to improve the personality. 

How Surtr and Reinhardt  gets into top 20 males in CYL3 shows how minimum people cares for personality as well, and it upsets me, same like Legendary Azura. Her design make me hope she will shed some light to Valla, or mention about Arete, but no, her lines basically sums up as "I sing and I'm a sociopath who doesn't care of other countries fell as long I keep my mouth shut and can destroy Anankos" . 

In real life, personality matters more than looks or skills, but that's what sells in video games, so companies will be milking it. but again, since sex appeal and unit usability is enough to sell , they don't bother to improve the personality.  And said lack of concern to personality will always baffles me, but who am I I alone can't eliminate the  consumer base.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I tried to say here.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think the fact that it's a modern trend, with the exception of FE4 (which had some good older villains to compensate, and while I'm here I'll add Thracia skews more towards the middle aged than the Wendell Gotoh oldies) is pretty clear that the dearth of older characters is very much an intentional design decision ever since they've leaned into pairings and made sex sell. And I doubt it's going to go away any time soon. We can complain about discrimination of all types until the cows come home, but it's clearly working for them because the majority of people simply don't care. And for me personally it's not a big enough deal to boycott the series which is the only real power we have to change things as consumers (short of some organised mass letter writing campaign or something). Ultimately if we are to get a more evened cast (for want of a better word, the pairing approach has actually lead to a much larger number of females in each game I reckon) it's probably going to come down to some developer designing a different type of character because they're board of drawing cute girls and manly/bishonen men. And even then some producer who doesn't care would probably just say "Stick em in a prepubescent loli body. Worked for Nyx."

There's not a massive whole lot we can do other than boycott the series (which I'm personally too invested in to do for other reasons). Or I guess mass rally Niime to win CYL4. That might do something.

[Johann]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Even taking exclusively females into account, consider the fact that the ratio of males to females in Heroes is roughly equal (at least it seems to me, I haven't bothered counting) while the total number of male to female ratio in the series scews towards male. In an impartial system, that would mean the same ratio would be present in Heroes but it's not. Being waifu material doesn't just net a chance for a character to get in over other female characters, it gives them the ability to get in over a very large number of male characters too. 

In other words not just at the detriment of the quality of female characters. It's to the detriment of all characters. Six sexy Camillas doesn't mean five other female characters can't get in the game. It means five other characters period don't get into the game, regardless of their gender. And I'm not sure what you mean by when it happens to men people make a big fuss about it, because objectification happens to men all the time and people don't even notice it precisely because people don't make a fuss about it.

I think at this point we might be arguing about somewhat different (but related) things-- in your case, what makes a character seemingly worthy of getting into the game, and in my case, the problem with how female characters are treated (by creators and players), on the whole. Even if the ratio of male to female characters present in the game was skewed drastically toward including more female characters, there's still a misogyny problem, which is based more on the quality of their presentation, rather than quantity.

Earlier you used Frederick, Seth, and Gharnef as "sexy" as if the degree that those characters are made attractive (or just not monstrous like Gharnef was) is anywhere close to how the female cast is portrayed. I found it a rather absurd case, especially if that's your idea of objectified male characters.

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Johann said:

I think at this point we might be arguing about somewhat different (but related) things-- in your case, what makes a character seemingly worthy of getting into the game, and in my case, the problem with how female characters are treated (by creators and players), on the whole. Even if the ratio of male to female characters present in the game was skewed drastically toward including more female characters, there's still a misogyny problem, which is based more on the quality of their presentation, rather than quantity.

Earlier you used Frederick, Seth, and Gharnef as "sexy" as if the degree that those characters are made attractive (or just not monstrous like Gharnef was) is anywhere close to how the female cast is portrayed. I found it a rather absurd case, especially if that's your idea of objectified male characters.

Once again, I am not suggesting that the severity of it is equal (in that very comment where I mention Frederick, Seth and Gharnef I expressly say it's not to the same degree, not sure how you could have read it and picked up that I was suggesting it was) nor am I suggesting that the fact that there's more female characters than the ratio should suggest is a good thing, which is how I think you've taken that comment. In fact I'm basically saying the opposite. I'm also not saying it isn't misogynistic or that it's not a problem. I'm saying it's not just misogynistic and the other elements of it (particular the ageism, DraceEmpressa's comment about using unit quality is also astute) are also important and shouldn't be dismissed. Essentially,  what I'm saying it's that saying it's misogynistic is the equivalent of saying "Objectifying women is bad." Which is the wrong thought process as I think the view point should be "Objectifying characters is bad." Limiting one's scope of an issue to just one gender is, well, limiting.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Johann]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Essentially,  what I'm saying it's that saying it's misogynistic is essentially saying "Objectifying women is bad." Which is the wrong thought process as I think the view point should be "Objectifying characters is bad."

My beef with this take is that it's sort of an "All Lives Matter" type of response. Nobody was arguing that men being objectified isn't bad, but by making that a key part of your point, you're saying it's just as big of a problem. Choosing to respond to @Othin with "but don't forget about all the sexism men deal with" is pretty dismissive of her point that the objectification overwhelmingly and disproportionately targets female characters.

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, Johann said:

What's misogynistic is that when sexualization or objectification happen to women, many people don't even notice because it's omnipresent, and then when someone complains about it, other people respond with excuses like "well what do you expect, sex sells" or "I don't see the problem". When it happens to men, people make a big fuss because they're not conditioned to seeing it.

I am pretty sure it is the opposite. I hardly see anyone complain about male units' abs while people freak out over female units' amount of skin they show or the body proportions they have.

14 minutes ago, DraceEmpressa said:

tbh all of this talk about objectification have the same basis  as why there is power creep. There is buyer so there will be market and not the other way around. If there is no buyer, the market will die on itself. So what must be eliminated is the consumer base, not the market. The problem is, is that possible or not?

That the FEH units are not only selling sex appeal, but also simply usability as unit with minimum to no regard to personality as character  is baffling to me. Many units can have better personality with their alts, or their appearance in FEH, but no, since sex appeal and unit usability is enough to sell , they don't bother to improve the personality. 

How Surtr and Reinhardt  gets into top 20 males in CYL3 shows how minimum people cares for personality as well, and it upsets me, same like Legendary Azura. Her design make me hope she will shed some light to Valla, or mention about Arete, but no, her lines basically sums up as "I sing and I'm a sociopath who doesn't care of other countries fell as long I keep my mouth shut and can destroy Anankos" . 

In real life, personality matters more than looks or skills, but that's what sells in video games, so companies will be milking it. but again, since sex appeal and unit usability is enough to sell , they don't bother to improve the personality.  And said lack of concern to personality will always baffles me, but who am I I alone can't eliminate the  consumer base.

The definition of market is pretty broad, so it can refer to buyers as well, such as "the market is not going to pay $1,000 for a plastic spoon."

And calling other players problems because they have different tastes and priorities than you is kind of condescending. I pay for game play performance, you pay for personality, others pay for fan service; everyone wants different things out of Fire Emblem Heroes and there is nothing wrong with that.

In real life, personality, looks, and skills are all pretty important depending on the situation. In most jobs, personality alone is not going to get your very far if you keep screwing up your duties, so having the right skills and experience is pretty much mandatory, and if you are in the fashion or entertainment industry or going for an interview, you definitely need to look the part as no employer wants to hire a slob. For dating, personality matters a lot of course, but you also need to make sure you look nice, trim or shave your beard/body hair, shower, etc. to make a good first impression; having strong social skills is an huge asset too, as making the other person laugh and feel comfortable helps with the seduction.

[Johann]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am pretty sure it is the opposite. I hardly see anyone complain about male units' abs while people freak out over female units' amount of skin they show or the body proportions they have.

Showing abs isn't objectification. Like, when people use Hawkeye as an example of a sexualized man, it goes to show that they don't really know what a sexualized man looks like. Meanwhile, there's arguably just as vocal a response (varying by depiction) to criticisms about the way female characters are portrayed.

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Johann said:

Showing abs isn't objectification. Like, when people use Hawkeye as an example of a sexualized man, it goes to show that they don't really know what a sexualized man looks like. Meanwhile, there's arguably just as vocal a response (varying by depiction) to criticisms about the way female characters are portrayed.

If abs do not count, then what does? Do men have to be stripped butt naked for that to count as objectification?

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Even taking exclusively females into account, consider the fact that the ratio of males to females in Heroes is roughly equal (at least it seems to me, I haven't bothered counting) while the total number of male to female ratio in the series scews towards male. In an impartial system, that would mean the same ratio would be present in Heroes but it's not. Being waifu material doesn't just net a chance for a character to get in over other female characters, it gives them the ability to get in over a very large number of male characters too. 

I ran some numbers last year on playables outside and FEH and gender ratios:

Shadow Dragon: 14/59 = 23.7% female.

Shadows of Valentia: 13/34 = 38.23%

New Mystery of the Emblem: 24/78 = 30.77%

Genealogy Gen 1: 9/24 = 37.5% Gen 2 (sans Subs and Finn) is 33.33%.

Thracia 776: 17/52 = 32.69%

Binding Blade (sans Trial Map characters): 19/54 = 35.19%

Blazing Blade: 13/44 (counting N&N separately) = 29.55%

Sacred Stones (sans Trial Map characters): 12/33 = 36.36%

Radiant Dawn (sans BK, plus Largo): 25/73 = 34.24%

Awakening (Excluding Einherjar, including both sexes of Robin and Morgan): 25/51 = 49.02%

Fates in its entirety (counting the Corrin and Kana sexes separately): 34/69 = 49.28%

 

Awakening and Fates achieved gender parity, partly I think due to the marriage mechanic. Everything else lacks it. Being usually at ~1/3rd the roster.

 

As for FEH itself, I just finished counting everyone for you. I hope I got it right. Non-alts of any kind: Males 118 to Females 108 (47.79% Female). Alts of all kinds: Males 45 to Females 68 (39.82% Male). Added altogether, we get 339 units in FEH, of whom 51.92% are Female, and 48.08% Male.

 

Edit: I did forget someone- Surtr, but only one more guy isn't going to make a huge difference, so I'm not going to recalculate. -Actually, I forgot Arvis, Ylgr and Ethlyn too.

I'll just post my lists for others to check them over if they wish:

Male non-alt:

Spoiler

1. Alfonse
2. Hrid 
3. Surtr
4. Marth
5. Jagen
6. Cain
7. Abel
8. Draug
9. Gordin
10. Luke
11. Roderick
12. Ogma
13. Barst
14. Jeorge
15. Michalis
16. Navarre
17. Merric
18. DE Hardin
19. Camus
20. Legion
21. Wrys
22. Gharnef
23. Alm
24. Lukas
25. Tobin
26. Gray
27. Kliff
28. Leon
29. Clive
30. Berkut
31. Boey
32. Saber
33. Duma
34. Sigurd
35. Arden
36. Quan
37. Lewyn
38. Jamke
39. Eldigan
40. Arvis
41. Seliph
42. Ares
43. Julius
44. Leif
45. Finn
46. Saias
47. Reinhardt
48. Roy
49. Rutger
50. Lugh
51. Raigh
52. Klein
53. FE6 Bartre
54. Narcian
55. Zephiel
56. Eliwood
57. Hector
58. Dorcas
59. Matthew
60. Raven
61. Lucius
62. Canas
63. Hawkeye
64. FE7 Karel
65. Legault
66. Jaffar
67. Lloyd
68. Linus
69. Ephraim
70. Seth
71. Innes
72. Joshua
73. Lyon
74. Valter
75. PoR Ike
76. Soren
77. Oscar
78. RD Sothe
79. Tibarn
80. Naesala
81. Reyson
82. Black Knight
83. Oliver
84. Chrom
85. Male Robin
86. Frederick
87. Stahl
88. Gaius
89. Donnel
90. Lon’qu
91. Henry
92. Virion
93. Owain
94. Gerome
95. Male Morgan
96. Walhart
97. Male Corrin
98. Gunter
99. Jakob
100. Silas
101. Xander
102. Leo
103. Laslow
104. Odin
105. Niles
106. Arthur of Fates
107. Keaton
108. Ryoma
109. 109.Takumi
110. Kaze
111. Saizo
112. Hinata
113. Azama
114. Subaki
115. Kaden
116. Male Kana
117. Shigure
118. Siegbert
119. Shiro
120. Garon

Female non-alt:

Spoiler

1. Sharena
2. Anna of Askr
3. Fjorm
4. Gunnthra
5. Ylgr
6. Laegjarn
7. Laevatein
8. Eir
9. Loki
10. Caeda
11. Linde
12. Minerva
13. Maria
14. Palla
15. Catria
16. Est
17. Sheena
18. Young Tiki
19. Katarina
20. Clarisse
21. Athena
22. Celica
23. Clair
24. Mae
25. Genny
26. Sonya
27. Delthea
28. Faye
29. Mathilda
30. Deidre
31. Julia
32. Ayra
33. Lachesis
34. Ethlyn
35. Silvia
36. Tailtiu
37. Lene
38. Ishtar
39. Nanna
40. Lilina
41. Shanna
42. Thea
43. Clarine
44. Sue
45. Gwendolyn
46. Fir
47. Cecilia
48. Sophia
49. Fae
50. Idunn
51. Lyn
52. Serra
53. Priscilla
54. Rebecca
55. Nino
56. Ninian
57. Florina
58. Karla
59. Ursula
60. Eirika
61. Lute
62. L’Arachel
63. Tana
64. Amelia
65. Marisa
66. Myrrh
67. Mist
68. Titania
69. Mia
70. Elincia
71. Leanne
72. Nephenee
73. Nailah
74. Micaiah
75. Lucina
76. Female Robin
77. Lissa
78. Cordelia
79. Sully
80. Sumia
81. Maribelle
82. Olivia
83. Cherche
84. Adult Tiki
85. Nowi
86. Female Morgan
87. Panne
88. Aversa
89. Female Corrin
90. Azura
91. Felicia
92. Camilla
93. Elise
94. Peri
95. Severa
96. Beruka
97. Effie
98. Hinoka
99. Sakura
100. Kagero
101. Oboro
102. Setsuna
103. Hana
104. Female Kana
105. Ophelia
106. Soleil
107. Velouria
108. Nina
109. Selkie
110. Rhajat

Male alt:

Spoiler

1. Spring Alfonse
2. NY Hrid
3. Bride Marth
4. Legendary Marth
5. Legendary Roy
6. Valentine’s Roy
7. Valentine’s Eliwood
8. Valentine’s Hector
9. Brave Hector
10. Legendary Hector
11. Halloween Dorcas
12. Xmas Ephraim
13. Brave Ephraim
14. Legendary Ephraim
15. Summer Innes
16. Valentine’s Ike
17. Brave Ike
18. Legendary Ike
19. Valentine’s Soren
20. Valentine’s Greil
21. Zelgius
22. Paladin Chrom
23. Spring Chrom
24. Xmas Chrom
25. Male Grima Robin
26. Xmas Male Robin
27. Summer Frederick
28. Summer Gaius
29. Halloween Henry
30. Performing Inigo
31. Adrift Male Corrin
32. NY M Corrin
33. Halloween Jakob
34. Halloween Niles
35. Performing Shigure
36. Spring Xander
37. Summer Xander
38. Yukata Xander
39. Summer Leo
40. Spa Ryoma
41. Yukata Ryoma
42. Legendary Ryoma
43. NY Takumi
44. Summer Takumi
45. Fallen Takumi

Female alt:

Spoiler

1. Spring Sharena
2. Brave Veronica
3. NY Fjorm
4. NY Gunnthra
5. NY Laegjarn
6. NY Laevatein
7. Bride Caeda
8. Summer Linde
9. Spring Catria
10. Summer Young Tiki
11. Legendary Young Tiki
12. Brave Celica
13. Fallen Celica
14. Valentine’s Lilina
15. Xmas Cecilia
16. Xmas Fae
17. Valentine’s Lyn
18. Bride Lyn
19. Brave Lyn
20. Legendary Lyn
21. Flying Nino
22. Bride Ninian
23. Gleipnirika
24. Legendary Eirika
25. Xmas Eirika
26. Summer Tana
27. Halloween Myrrh
28. Valentine’s Mist
29. Valentine’s Titania
30. Halloween Mia
31. Yukata Elincia
32. Yukata Micaiah
33. Spring Lucina
34. Masked Marth
35. Brave Lucina
36. Legendary Lucina
37. Summer Female Robin
38. Female Grima Robin
39. Performing Olivia
40. Flier Olivia
41. Xmas Tharja
42. Bride Tharja
43. Bride Cordelia
44. Summer Cordelia
45. Halloween Nowi
46. Summer Noire
47. Summer Adult Tiki
48. Adrift F Corrin
49. Summer F Corrin
50. NY Azura
51. Performing Azura
52. Adrift Azura
53. Legendary Azura
54. Summer Charlotte
55. Adrift Mikoto
56. Spring Kagero
57. Halloween Kagero
58. Bow Hinoka
59. Spa Hinoka
60. Spa Sakura
61. Halloween Sakura
62. Spa Elise
63. Summer Elise
64. NY Camilla
65. Spa Camilla
66. Spring Camilla
67. Summer Camilla
68. Adrift Camilla

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[XRay]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for FEH itself, I just finished counting everyone for you. I hope I got it right. Non-alts of any kind: Males 118 to Females 108 (47.79% Female). Alts of all kinds: Males 45 to Females 68 (39.82% Male). Added altogether, we get 339 units in FEH, of whom 51.92% are Female, and 48.08% Male.

That is interesting. I thought there would have been a lot more females than males, but that is only for Special Heroes Foci.

[Johann]

31 minutes ago, XRay said:

If abs do not count, then what does? Do men have to be stripped butt naked for that to count as objectification?

It's a bit complicated, so bear with me. It goes back to what I was saying earlier-- because of the way we've been conditioned to look at men and women, the things that would make a woman objectified don't necessarily make a man objectified. This is due to the societal power imbalance between men and women, such as how women are often sexually exploited (such as assault, coercion, and abuse) and how straight men are largely catered to by media, and experience generally less bullshit for their gender. Because of these things, if you present a female character in, say, their underwear, the context is completely different from a man being in their underwear (which is usually used for humor).

Now, what solidifies it as objectification is the other ways that character is presented, as not everything is clothing. Remembering that these characters are fictional, and therefore there are no hard rules for what can and can't happen, everything exists because someone creating them decided to make them that way. Lemme break it down into the main aspects of presentation, looking at two characters on opposite ends of the objectification scale: Titania and Camilla.

• Characterization: Within the narrative, how do they relate to the other characters? Do they have their own motivations that are separate from other characters (particularly the male characters) like Titania, or are they basically just exist for the sake of another character like Camilla? Titania's motivation is to look out for everybody, teach them, offer her opinions on complicated subjects, etc. Camilla's is to... hug the player and take baths I guess? Those things (admittedly not all does, but they stand out) are there more to reinforce sexual fantasies for the player rather than develop who she's supposed to be. If you take the player/Ike away from Titania, you still have a lot of characterization. If you take the player/Corrin away from Camilla, what's left?
• Attire: A character's clothing/armor can tell us some details about who they're supposed to be at a glance. Titania's armor is pleasing to the eye, but is also realistic and functional, and suits her characterization. Perhaps they designed her that way so the player would think of her as an actual sister/mother figure. Meanwhile, Camilla's armor is simply designed to focus on her boobs-- the contrast between her skin color and the armor tone and how they're jutted outwards make them really hard to miss. There are countless examples of female characters having armor that is designed to highlight certain body parts, notably their chest and legs (notice how many female characters have exposed thighs, even if they're otherwise quite covered). Side note and less of a objectification thing but also rather silly, notice how many female characters are wearing high heels with their armor as well.
• Poses/Camera Angle: This is more of a thing in cinematic games, but at least with FEH we can look at the art. Titania's standing upright like a normal person stands. Camilla bends over and sticks her chest and ass out. Consider how many other characters do this awkward pose to emphasize their chest and ass. Alternatively, there's the "boobs-and-butt" pose, where their ass is facing the camera and they're turning around so you can see their boobs too. Awkward as all hell.

Side note: Camilla fans, I'm sorry but your girl is perfect for these discussions. I don't begrudge any of you for liking her for whatever reason, but I do recommend you take the time to think about why she's designed the way she is and reflect on what, if anything, you would have preferred be different about her character.

Try looking at these aspects in the male characters. Niles is flirty with the player and sometimes given some clothes that expose his chest slightly, but he's probably the only overt example (not a good look that he's also a stereotypical depraved bisexual). Hawkeye exposes his muscular body, but that's the end of anything sexual from him; many players (especially if they hear his quotes) will look at his muscles and think he's a powerful man, not a sexual one (though, to be fair, Hawkeye canonically fucks). A few other characters (like Linus) expose their chests a bit for no reason, but does this imply sexuality? It can be inferred, but it could also be inferred that this is to imply sexual desirability, that is, the character is being cool or whatever. Note, however, that where outfits like Camilla's is designed to draw your attention to her chest, the only male character I can think of that is designed to draw your attention to the naughty bits is Volug.

Ultimately, the creators are designing these characters this way because they figure this is what you want, and in the case of the male characters, the lack of sexual attributes in their presentation implies that they don't think you want sexy men. Frankly I'm not even sure if I could get away with posting example pictures of men in the same kind of clothing that many sexualized female characters are wearing, even though it's the same exact thing, only because of how conditioned we are to seeing women portrayed in sexualized outfits compared to men.

Further viewing (super recommended):

[XRay]

11 minutes ago, Johann said:

It's a bit complicated, so bear with me. It goes back to what I was saying earlier-- because of the way we've been conditioned to look at men and women, the things that would make a woman objectified don't necessarily make a man objectified. This is due to the societal power imbalance between men and women, such as how women are often sexually exploited (such as assault, coercion, and abuse) and how straight men are largely catered to by media, and experience generally less bullshit for their gender. Because of these things, if you present a female character in, say, their underwear, the context is completely different from a man being in their underwear (which is usually used for humor).

I agree that a showing a male nipple is not the same as showing a female nipple, but I would not agree that Hawkeye's abs does not qualify as objectifying him. I agree that Hawkeye is less objectified than Camilla in terms of characterization, but he is no less objectified in my opinion when it comes to attire and poses. He is half naked making manly poses, which is not much different from girls being in bikini making feminine poses.

[Johann]

Just now, XRay said:

I agree that a showing a male nipple is not the same as showing a female nipple, but I would not agree that Hawkeye's abs does not qualify as objectifying him. I agree that Hawkeye is less objectified than Camilla in terms of characterization, but he is no less objectified in my opinion when it comes to attire and poses. He is half naked making manly poses, which is not much different from girls being in bikini making feminine poses.

Let's try this: Who do you think he is designed to appeal to, and can you ask those people what they think about him?

[bottlegnomes]

@Johann I think a perfect example for your comparison would be Cecilia and Christmas Cecilia. Normal is in a similar vein to Titania, both of whom are just gorgeous. Christmas is equally attractive (same person so a bit of a duh), but has a convenient boob window with framing and everything and went up about 3 cup sizes.

[Ice Dragon]

@Johann I feel like you've completely dodged the question. The question I was expecting to be answered (and @XRay can tell me if I'm wrong) was "What do you have to do to a male character to make it count as male objectification?" However, two thirds of your post was about objectification of women, which doesn't answer the question, and the remaining one third of your post was giving examples of how men in less clothing aren't really being objectified, which also doesn't answer the question.

So, I will ask again on my own behalf:

If none of these examples of male character designs are male objectification, do you have any examples of what would count?

 

The reason I ask is because part of the argument appears to be going back and forth about the amount of female and male objectification that occurs in media, but if what counts as male objectification is more difficult to achieve and requires going to less socially acceptable lengths, both of which are things I believe to be true, then it would clearly make sense that there would be less of it.