Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[LuxSpes]

6 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Gonna bump a question on a unit I made earlier in this thread since I'm still looking for help on it. Just dropped it in the spoiler.

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So I made another pull and got a unit I've been wanting for a while now, Corrin (M). Unfortunately, he turned out to be +HP -Speed, but I'm still determined to get some use out of him in arena. My biggest issue is finding no reason to use him over my Lucina, however. I'm still hoping his speed tier isn't too bad since Yato gives him +4 for 33 speed.

For reference, +HP -Spe Corrin has these stats at 5* Lv. 40: 45 / 32 / 29 / 28 / 24

Yato

Dragon Fang

Rally Attack / Rally Speed

Life and Death 2

Swordbreaker 3

Threaten Speed 3

This first set that came to mind wants to accomplish two goals: patch up Corrin's speed and make him a solid frontliner. Life and Death 2 is the passive A instead of 3 because I don't have access to a 5* I can use as fodder. My inital guess is to use LaD over Fury 3 because it bolsters his middling offenses without compromising his bulk: even with the -4 drop to defense he is still 3HKO'd by standard Takumi because of his HP boon, and isn't at risk of getting doubled by any variant without boosts, either. Swordbreaker is there for him to take on popular reds and ORKO some of the frailer ones like Lucina on the counter, mitigating his speed issue further. Finally, Threaten Speed puts him at an effective +13 speed after tanking a hit. I opted to use a rally as his assist depending on what the team needs. I kept Dragon Fang as his special because it is not match-up dependent and many units with 29 Def or less are OHKO'd when it's ready, with standard Robin (M) in particular surviving with 2 HP (52*0.8--> 41 + 26 = 67 vs eff. 69 HP --> 2). Needless to say, standard Takumi is also OHKO'd when Dragon Fang is ready.

Alternatively, I could replace LaD 2 with Fury or Darting Blow (effective Spd +10 with Yato) or run a movement assist instead of a Rally.

What do you guys think? Should I pursue raising my +HP -Spe Corrin? Should I hold out for another one? Is there another set that could be recommended instead?

 

It does seem good and I think LaD 2 is superior to Darting Blow since with LaD, Corrin still reaches 37 speed on player phase, which is quite good for a -Spd character(and it's 42 if the opponent was in range of Threaten Speed), though Fury 3 sounds like decent alternative.  And for the Rally, I'd think it'd depend on Corrin's teammates. If he's paired with fast units, Rally Atk may be more worth it since Threaten Spd already gives them an effective +5 Spd against the debuffed enemies. If the teammates are slightly slower, then Rally Speed may prove more useful since it combines in an effective +9 Spd against debuffed targets. 

 

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

It does seem good and I think LaD 2 is superior to Darting Blow since with LaD, Corrin still reaches 37 speed on player phase, which is quite good for a -Spd character(and it's 42 if the opponent was in range of Threaten Speed), though Fury 3 sounds like decent alternative.  And for the Rally, I'd think it'd depend on Corrin's teammates. If he's paired with fast units, Rally Atk may be more worth it since Threaten Spd already gives them an effective +5 Spd against the debuffed enemies. If the teammates are slightly slower, then Rally Speed may prove more useful since it combines in an effective +9 Spd against debuffed targets. 

 

I'll stick with Life and Death 2 then, once the arena update drops in April Fury will lose one of its biggest advantages, which is inflating scores.

Interesting note on the rallies. Rally Attack will always be useful no matter what team Corrin will find himself in, but Rally Speed can give him a niche on buff teams. I agree that running Rally Speed / Threaten Speed together might be a bit redundant if he needs to do team support, though. For reference, at the moment I'm running Lucina with Nino on my current arena team, and I gave Lucina Rally Speed to add to Gronnblade's buffs, since I have another unit providing attack support already. Nino needs this to OHKO really scary stuff like Takumi or Nowi that she can't risk taking a hit from, perhaps even Spur Attack too if they have a +Res variance or buff.

Ultimately, I will put off promoting anyone until the next bonus unit rotation comes up, but hopefully I can get Corrin to put in some work. Thanks for the help!

[LordFrigid]

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

Gonna bump a question on a unit I made earlier in this thread since I'm still looking for help on it. Just dropped it in the spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

So I made another pull and got a unit I've been wanting for a while now, Corrin (M). Unfortunately, he turned out to be +HP -Speed, but I'm still determined to get some use out of him in arena. My biggest issue is finding no reason to use him over my Lucina, however. I'm still hoping his speed tier isn't too bad since Yato gives him +4 for 33 speed.

For reference, +HP -Spe Corrin has these stats at 5* Lv. 40: 45 / 32 / 29 / 28 / 24

Yato

Dragon Fang

Rally Attack / Rally Speed

Life and Death 2

Swordbreaker 3

Threaten Speed 3

This first set that came to mind wants to accomplish two goals: patch up Corrin's speed and make him a solid frontliner. Life and Death 2 is the passive A instead of 3 because I don't have access to a 5* I can use as fodder. My inital guess is to use LaD over Fury 3 because it bolsters his middling offenses without compromising his bulk: even with the -4 drop to defense he is still 3HKO'd by standard Takumi because of his HP boon, and isn't at risk of getting doubled by any variant without boosts, either. Swordbreaker is there for him to take on popular reds and ORKO some of the frailer ones like Lucina on the counter, mitigating his speed issue further. Finally, Threaten Speed puts him at an effective +13 speed after tanking a hit. I opted to use a rally as his assist depending on what the team needs. I kept Dragon Fang as his special because it is not match-up dependent and many units with 29 Def or less are OHKO'd when it's ready, with standard Robin (M) in particular surviving with 2 HP (52*0.8--> 41 + 26 = 67 vs eff. 69 HP --> 2). Needless to say, standard Takumi is also OHKO'd when Dragon Fang is ready.

Alternatively, I could replace LaD 2 with Fury or Darting Blow (effective Spd +10 with Yato) or run a movement assist instead of a Rally.

What do you guys think? Should I pursue raising my +HP -Spe Corrin? Should I hold out for another one? Is there another set that could be recommended instead?

 

It depends on what you're running next to him. tbh, looking at M!Corrin...I just see a sword, as opposed to something that screams "niche". Maybe I'm missing something, but inherent Darting Blow 2 just doesn't seem as comparatively useful as some of the other swords.

In any case...that set seems pretty good for what it looks like you're trying to do (turn him into a Sword counter), though you're in trouble when going against other Swordbreaker Sword Lords, and even more so if they're running Fury, or have a Spd boon. But as long as you have a blue unit to cover them that shouldn't be a big deal. In fact...considering full neutral sword units with no inheritance, the matchups actually look pretty promising.

 

ALWAYS WINS:

• Caeda: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Cain: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Corrin (M): 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Draug: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Eirika: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Eliwood: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Fir: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Hana: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Laslow: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Lon'qu: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Lucina: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Lyn: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Marth: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Ogma: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Olivia: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Palla: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Roy: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Ryoma: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Selena: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Stahl: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.

WINS WHEN ATTACKING 1st:

WINS WHEN ATTACKING 2nd:

• Alfonse: 2 round(s).
• Chrom: 2 round(s).
• Eldigan: 2 round(s).
• Seliph: 2 round(s).

ALWAYS LOSES:

• Hinata (lolHinata)

If anything looks confusing about that list, feel free to ask. That breakdown/wording is just what makes the most sense to me. Also, if anything looks blatantly wrong, please let me know so I can fix it lol. It's maybe a little harder to tell without the specific breakdowns, but still.

Edit: not gonna lie, after posting I went straight to looking at the Hinata breakdown...it's actually correct.

For fun, I also tried +Atk (+Spd is inconsequential if they don't inherit Swordbreaker) Fury inheritance, and Cain, Chrom, Draug, Laslow, Marth, and Stahl all moved to "WINS WHEN ATTACKING 2nd"...only Chrom & Marth are worth worrying about of that list imo.

Life and Death 2 seems fine, I didn't really see any significant changes when switching it to Death Blow, and changing it to Darting Blow actually worsened the matchups so...yeah, good call =P (also with Swordbreaker Darting Blow is kinda moot against Swords). He doesn't pick up any losing matchups against Axes from running Life and Death either, so it should work out.

On his Assist, it depends heavily on what the team needs. With M!Corrin you're probably not running Eirika so a Rally is a good pick to get some buff power, but at the same time I've had many a match where I really wanted just one more positioning option. It's really something where you have to consider whether or not your team can hit the necessary Atk/Spd benchmarks on their own.

Edit: How often are people actually seeing Swordbreaker Sword units? Admittedly I've only been keeping track of enemy inherited skills for a few days, but I don't see it that often. It's usually Renewal, Vantage, or Desperation.

Edited March 26, 2017 by LordFrigid

[DehNutCase]

@MrSmokestack If you replace Dragon Fang with Moonbow your Corrin will 1RKO basically all sword lords. Compared to +Atk 3, +Atk boon Selena with Wo Dao+, Yato Corrin will deal 2 more damage per hit (Wo Dao+ effective damage is 18 MT, Yato is 16MT, but Corrin has 3 more base attack and L&D gives 1 more attack than +Atk 3.)

You can look up my post on Selena for the numbers, and 2 more damage per hit will more or less guarantee that only Hinata, Eldigian and Draug has any hope of surviving 1 round from your Corrin. And, being red and decently fast, he'll destroy most greens.

[MrSmokestack]

Thanks for the input so far guys!

10 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

It depends on what you're running next to him. tbh, looking at M!Corrin...I just see a sword, as opposed to something that screams "niche". Maybe I'm missing something, but inherent Darting Blow 2 just doesn't seem as comparatively useful as some of the other swords.

In any case...that set seems pretty good for what it looks like you're trying to do (turn him into a Sword counter), though you're in trouble when going against other Swordbreaker Sword Lords, and even more so if they're running Fury, or have a Spd boon. But as long as you have a blue unit to cover them that shouldn't be a big deal. In fact...considering full neutral sword units with no inheritance, the matchups actually look pretty promising.

  Reveal hidden contents

ALWAYS WINS:

• Caeda: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Cain: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Corrin (M): 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Draug: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Eirika: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Eliwood: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Fir: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Hana: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Laslow: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Lon'qu: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Lucina: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Lyn: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Marth: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Ogma: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Olivia: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Palla: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Roy: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Ryoma: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Selena: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
• Stahl: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.

WINS WHEN ATTACKING 1st:

WINS WHEN ATTACKING 2nd:

• Alfonse: 2 round(s).
• Chrom: 2 round(s).
• Eldigan: 2 round(s).
• Seliph: 2 round(s).

ALWAYS LOSES:

• Hinata (lolHinata)

If anything looks confusing about that list, feel free to ask. That breakdown/wording is just what makes the most sense to me. Also, if anything looks blatantly wrong, please let me know so I can fix it lol. It's maybe a little harder to tell without the specific breakdowns, but still.

Edit: not gonna lie, after posting I went straight to looking at the Hinata breakdown...it's actually correct.

For fun, I also tried +Atk (+Spd is inconsequential if they don't inherit Swordbreaker) Fury inheritance, and Cain, Chrom, Draug, Laslow, Marth, and Stahl all moved to "WINS WHEN ATTACKING 2nd"...only Chrom & Marth are worth worrying about of that list imo.

On his Assist, it depends heavily on what the team needs. With M!Corrin you're probably not running Eirika so a Rally is a good pick to get some buff power, but at the same time I've had many a match where I really wanted just one more positioning option. It's really something where you have to consider whether or not your team can hit the necessary Atk/Spd benchmarks on their own.

Corrin is probably the most balanced sword unit out of all the other options available right now. As @DehNutCase would say about Selena, Corrin (M) has relatively high offenses without leaving his defense or resistance something to be desired. His kit isn't very impressive but I think there's a lot of potential for him with skill inheritance, as he is capable of compressing a number of roles on a team at once: frontliner, supporter, and off-tank. I do agree he is a bit of a weaker option for a dedicated sword user compared to, say, Lucina, lacking recovery and effective damage, but I'm pretty biased towards Corrin in general and want to get the most I can out of him. As for actually using him on a team, I have a pretty strong preference for stat buffs over movement assists, but I regularly make use of both, carrying a dancer with an inherited hone skill and a ranged nuker with Draw Back. My units aren't **optimal** in terms of stat spreads, so carrying rallies and spurs patches that up really well from my experience.

10 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

@MrSmokestack If you replace Dragon Fang with Moonbow your Corrin will 1RKO basically all sword lords. Compared to +Atk 3, +Atk boon Selena with Wo Dao+, Yato Corrin will deal 2 more damage per hit (Wo Dao+ effective damage is 18 MT, Yato is 16MT, but Corrin has 3 more base attack and L&D gives 1 more attack than +Atk 3.)

You can look up my post on Selena for the numbers, and 2 more damage per hit will more or less guarantee that only Hinata, Eldigian and Draug has any hope of surviving 1 round from your Corrin. And, being red and decently fast, he'll destroy most greens.

I considered Moonbow, but I opted for Dragon Fang so as to ease inheritance requirements. That said, I haven't actually built my Corrin yet, so I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the tips!

[LordFrigid]

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

Thanks for the input so far guys!

Corrin is probably the most balanced sword unit out of all the other options available right now. As @DehNutCase would say about Selena, Corrin (M) has relatively high offenses without leaving his defense or resistance something to be desired. His kit isn't very impressive but I think there's a lot of potential for him with skill inheritance, as he is capable of compressing a number of roles on a team at once: frontliner, supporter, and off-tank. I do agree he is a bit of a weaker option for a dedicated sword user compared to, say, Lucina, lacking recovery and effective damage, but I'm pretty biased towards Corrin in general and want to get the most I can out of him. As for actually using him on a team, I have a pretty strong preference for stat buffs over movement assists, but I regularly make use of both, carrying a dancer with an inherited hone skill and a ranged nuker with Draw Back. My units aren't **optimal** in terms of stat spreads, so carrying rallies and spurs patches that up really well from my experience.

~

I considered Moonbow, but I opted for Dragon Fang so as to ease inheritance requirements. That said, I haven't actually built my Corrin yet, so I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the tips!

Whoops...didn't mean to come off as being anti-M!Corrin, I was trying to go for "it's not easy to carve a niche for him", my bad. I do see what you mean about the balanced stats.

Re. Moonbow...I don't think he needs it. Unless you really care that much about his ability to beat Hinata (and even then...just charge up Dragon Fang a little first?). Flicking through the matchups, only Stahl, Alfonse, Chrom, and Seliph are added to that 2-RKO list from not running Moonbow. Everyone else is ORKO anyway. I wouldn't say that's worthy of using it, especially given SP requirements (and also, if I were to put Swordbreaker on a Sword Lord, it'd probably be one of the slower ones. Which is...all of those 4).

Edited March 26, 2017 by LordFrigid

[MrSmokestack]

3 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Whoops...didn't mean to come off as being anti-M!Corrin, I was trying to go for "it's not easy to carve a niche for him", my bad. I do see what you mean about the balanced stats.

Re. Moonbow...I don't think he needs it. Unless you really care that much about his ability to beat Hinata (and even then...just charge up Dragon Fang a little first?). Flicking through the matchups, only Stahl, Alfonse, Chrom, and Seliph are added to that 2-RKO list from not running Moonbow. Everyone else is ORKO anyway. I wouldn't say that's worthy of using it, especially given SP requirements (and also, if I were to put Swordbreaker on a Sword Lord, it'd probably be one of the slower ones. Which is...all of those 4).

Oh no, don't apologize. I didn't take what you said the wrong way at all!

And I concur on Moonbow again. The set already needs a lot of SP to function--even if I have to raise him from 4*--so I'm saving it for another unit that could use it better than he does. It would most likely be Michalis in that case, considering Hauteclere makes it ready every other action. Thanks again for the help!

[DehNutCase]

@LordFrigid Swordbreaker vs. Swordbreaker means that normal doubling rules apply, so Chrom etc. still gets doubled to death by Corrin.

Edited March 26, 2017 by DehNutCase

[LordFrigid]

I'm aware of the breaker interaction, though it's definitely my bad on not clarifying/considering that. I stand by my point though: Moonbow is unnecessary.

[!Skydiver]

Hello mates!
I've been wondering what to do with Camilla, since as a brave axe user she's now completely outclassed by Cherche with Death Blow.
While Cherche can one shot a lot of units ( including some red mages and Takumi(!)), Camilla fails to fullfill these tasks and sometimes leave a bad taste on the mouth when she can't ORKO some blues not named Effie.

Well, looking at the stats, Camilla is a pretty balanced character with a somewhat good speed( excellent with darting blow) which is crippled by the brave weapon. So why not use her to destroy the things she's supposed to? Put an Emerald Axe and see how she takes 1 single digit damage from Linde, and 0 damage from robin and a lot of other blues . Mine for example is +Speed - Res, which means that with Darting Blow she doubles Sharena on player phase without Lancebreaker.

For assist, i'm using Swap to tank the hits from blue units when my red unit is in danger or to advance units trought trees , but it really depends on preference.
The C slot is the default Savage Blow, but depending on team composition some Hone/Fortify or Threaten could be more useful.

The B Slot left me thinking a bit, because while Lancebreaker guarantees the ORKO even on Enemy Phase, G tomebreaker guarantees that you will not be doubled by nino and if you initiate the attack before she hits, nino's dead. There's also renewal that could be paired with Reciprocal Aid to heal allies, or Wings of Mercy for helping low health friends.

On the ugly side, she dies to every fucking red existent on the game with a decent boon, and most green units will trouble her but not outright kill, so support from red units will be needed to finish the job. Also, with brave weapon she sometimes were able to finish some low health red units, but it's pretty situational.

I tested this build with Emerald axe(non plus) and she did stupendous well clearing the path for Lucina's sweep on Arena. Also no brave weapon means +5 arena score.

Emerald axe and Swap can be obtained from 3* Arthur, a common green pull. Emerald Axe+ is only 5* tough.

[BANRYU]

33 minutes ago, Jason Funderburker said:

Hello mates!
I've been wondering what to do with Camilla, since as a brave axe user she's now completely outclassed by Cherche with Death Blow.
While Cherche can one shot a lot of units ( including some red mages and Takumi(!)), Camilla fails to fullfill these tasks and sometimes leave a bad taste on the mouth when she can't ORKO some blues not named Effie.

Well, looking at the stats, Camilla is a pretty balanced character with a somewhat good speed( excellent with darting blow) which is crippled by the brave weapon. So why not use her to destroy the things she's supposed to? Put an Emerald Axe and see how she takes 1 single digit damage from Linde, and 0 damage from robin and a lot of other blues . Mine for example is +Speed - Res, which means that with Darting Blow she doubles Sharena on player phase without Lancebreaker.

For assist, i'm using Swap to tank the hits from blue units when my red unit is in danger or to advance units trought trees , but it really depends on preference.
The C slot is the default Savage Blow, but depending on team composition some Hone/Fortify or Threaten could be more useful.

The B Slot left me thinking a bit, because while Lancebreaker guarantees the ORKO even on Enemy Phase, G tomebreaker guarantees that you will not be doubled by nino and if you initiate the attack before she hits, nino's dead. There's also renewal that could be paired with Reciprocal Aid to heal allies, or Wings of Mercy for helping low health friends.

On the ugly side, she dies to every fucking red existent on the game with a decent boon, and most green units will trouble her but not outright kill, so support from red units will be needed to finish the job. Also, with brave weapon she sometimes were able to finish some low health red units, but it's pretty situational.

I tested this build with Emerald axe(non plus) and she did stupendous well clearing the path for Lucina's sweep on Arena. Also no brave weapon means +5 arena score.

Emerald axe and Swap can be obtained from 3* Arthur, a common green pull. Emerald Axe+ is only 5* tough.

I've honestly been wondering this with regards to Camilla too TBH. At a glance, the only thing that really stands out is her ability to go tank attacks from any manaketes not named Tiki, but apart from that it's hard to imagine her doing better than Cherche as far as general performance goes.

The question I have to ask is whether Camilla with any of this is better than anyone else also using them-- obviously Minerva and Michalis are better off with Hauteclere and Cherche likes to be able to Brave it, so yeah, I'm thinking that Emerald (or maybe Silver I guess? though TBH she probably dies to every red anyway) are the way to go with Camilla to take advantage of her speed and ability to double some things at least. I was thinking G Tomebreaker or Axebreaker would be good for her to expand her coverage beyond nuking blues. 

I actually almost wonder if focusing on Res Tanking would be good for her; G tomebreaker + Emerald Axe would let her not care about anything but reds so maybe she can be used to bait magic attackers and whatnot... Drag Back might actually be decent with her except that she probably needs GTB to survive Nino. If someone REALLY wants to invest such a valuable skill in her then Distant Counter might let her actually be a pretty good non-red mage counter. Otherwise, I'm wondering how something like Defiant Res or even just Res+3 would be for letting her tank magic even better. 

And if she's Res boons he definitely wants Glacies/Iceberg. In fact I kinda wonder how a Camilla with Killer Axe+/Iceberg/a breaker would do in terms of damage output?

I guess the good thing about Camilla is that she's pretty versatile depending on her nature, at least. 

[TheNiddo]

My idea for +Speed Camilla would be Life and Death + Desperation. Brave Axe might be usable still for the set up with a Rally Speed to help her out (losing a total of 1 speed but gaining 5 attack is pretty good), if not go for a Killer Axe + Iceberg.

[DehNutCase]

To be honest, Camilla's problem isn't Cherche, it's Minerva.

37/30/32/28/31 hurts when compared to Minerva's 40/31/33/32/22 AND legendary weapon access. (16 MT killer axe).

Sure, Camilla has more Res (probably the worst stat in general), but Minerva beats her literally everywhere else.

[BANRYU]

24 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

My idea for +Speed Camilla would be Life and Death + Desperation. Brave Axe might be usable still for the set up with a Rally Speed to help her out (losing a total of 1 speed but gaining 5 attack is pretty good), if not go for a Killer Axe + Iceberg.

My only question there is what would that do better than a +Speed Minerva running the same skills? Minny has +1 Str and Spd over Camilla, a stronger Mt weapon, lower HP making it easier to hit Desperation's threshold, and Desperation itself is pretty redundant alongside Brave Axe already, isn't it? With Brave Axe lowering your default speed, you're gonna be 4x attacking even less than with Darting Blow 3-- Don't you want to run LaD with EITHER desperation or Brave Axe? I guess the question is, is there anything that Minerva can't kill with Hauteclere/LaD3/Desperation3 that Camilla can with Brave Axe and the other two skills? Or Cherche can't nuke harder with the same skills? I dunno man.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the setup is bad at all, it's perfectly serviceable, but what I'm trying to nail down is what Camilla can do best over the other wyvern ladies (and Mike I guess)... As I said the nice thing about Camilla is that a lot of different sets CAN work well for her, so your set can totally work, but personally speaking I'm being really picky about capitalizing on her unique characteristics ehehe ;;

Thinking on it more Killer Axe is probably not a great option either lol that's just a pitiful attempt to emulate Hauteclere, Brave Axe is probably instantly superior in that regard, but Cherche seems like a better Brave user since she has much higher attack and cares less about her speed being lower. I think Camilla has to take advantage of her speed in order to succeed to some degree. And since her Res is pretty good, I think getting rid of Brave does her a lot of favors since it'll let her tank magic way better without the nerf to her speed. 

[DehNutCase]

@LordFrigid Lack of Moonbow means that -Spd/+HP Corrin(M) fails to 1RKO Fury 3: Seliph, Ogma, Chrom, Stahl, Eldigan, Alfonse, Cain, Laslow, Marth, Hinata, and Draug, all of whom kill him in 2 hits. (i.e. 1 player phase hit and an enemy phase hit, or an enemy phase hit and a Vantage hit. For defense teams Vantage will probably be everywhere.)

Note: I gave them Moonbow if they didn't have a special.

Selena also isn't 1RKO'd, but she can't KO back unless she has the Moonbow Wo Dao+ combo.

WITH Moonbow, only Hinata, Chrom, Eldigan, and Draug survive, and of those, only Draug survives with more than 1 hp (6). Edit: uh, after KOing Corrin. BEFORE KOing Corrin Draug has 12 hp, Hinata like like 5 or 6, Chrom & Eldigan 1.

Without Moonbow, Swordbreaker Corrin can't even Swordbreak half the sword lords without help.

 

Bear in mind these are Neutral Boon/Bane characters, +Atk or +Def natures means the matchups get even worse.

Edited March 27, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MaskedAmpharos]

I personally see Camilla as the most balanced and versatile wyvern rider after skill-inheritance. Sure she's not as strong of a nuke as Cherche, as fast of a speedster as Minerva, or as defensive of a tank as Michalis, but she has the ability to fill any of those niches in a team if you don't happen to have the more specialized version. 

Even if you want to argue that a Minerva with Desperation does everything a Camilla with the same set does but better, not everyone has a Minerva. Even though an optimized Cherche is a better Brave nuker, it takes A LOT of work and resources (and a decent amount of luck) to get her there, which not everyone has. 

In terms of absolute, pure, best-case-scenario optimization, sure maybe Camilla isn't as good as other wyverns with SI. But we already knew that SI would leave some units better than others. A Laslow with the exact same skills as Lucina is never going to be as good as a Lucina with the same skills, but you can still make Laslow a good red sword unit if you weren't lucky enough to pull a Lucina (or if you just happen to really like Laslow and want to use him). 

Camilla isn't ever going to be the "best" wyvern at anything because of how balanced her stat spread is, but she'll do a pretty good job at anything you want her to do.

EDIT: I hope that came off as more optimistic than pessimistic. I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong and for Camilla to have a set out there that only she can run effectively and for her to have her own special niche in this meta. But I just wanted to say that, even if that doesn't turn out to be the case, she still has worth. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[!Skydiver]

19 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

My only question there is what would that do better than a +Speed Minerva running the same skills? Minny has +1 Str and Spd over Camilla, a stronger Mt weapon, lower HP making it easier to hit Desperation's threshold, and Desperation itself is pretty redundant alongside Brave Axe already, isn't it? With Brave Axe lowering your default speed, you're gonna be 4x attacking even less than with Darting Blow 3-- Don't you want to run LaD with EITHER desperation or Brave Axe? I guess the question is, is there anything that Minerva can't kill with Hauteclere/LaD3/Desperation3 that Camilla can with Brave Axe and the other two skills? Or Cherche can't nuke harder with the same skills? I dunno man.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the setup is bad at all, it's perfectly serviceable, but what I'm trying to nail down is what Camilla can do best over the other wyvern ladies (and Mike I guess)... As I said the nice thing about Camilla is that a lot of different sets CAN work well for her, so your set can totally work, but personally speaking I'm being really picky about capitalizing on her unique characteristics ehehe ;;

Thinking on it more Killer Axe is probably not a great option either lol that's just a pitiful attempt to emulate Hauteclere, Brave Axe is probably instantly superior in that regard, but Cherche seems like a better Brave user since she has much higher attack and cares less about her speed being lower. I think Camilla has to take advantage of her speed in order to succeed to some degree. And since her Res is pretty good, I think getting rid of Brave does her a lot of favors since it'll let her tank magic way better without the nerf to her speed. 

I agree. The only thing that Camilla can do that the other wyvern riders don't is tank magical damage reliably, and even so, Minerva can actually take some hits and never be doubled, she hits harder too. Sad as it is, Camilla isn't the best choice of green unit most of the time as she has limited contribution to the whole team. Actually, Camilla works well for me because i'm currently running a fury/desperation SPD Lucina(every variation of Takumi is doubled) and +ATK Azura with Sol. So i'm pretty much covered about lots of stuff, except blue.
And also, to me the fun of this game is play with the characters we like, so... i'm kinda biased.

[DehNutCase]

@MaskedAmpharos I mean, Camilla's not a bad unit. Minerva's pretty great as is, and Camilla is Minerva lite. Sure, she's almost STRICTLY outclassed, but being the cheap Knock-off of a great unit often means you're a great unit yourself.

If Minerva's worth 9/10, Camilla's probably 7.5-8.5/10. Still perfectly usable.

[MaskedAmpharos]

Just now, DehNutCase said:

@MaskedAmpharos I mean, Camilla's not a bad unit. Minerva's pretty great as is, and Camilla is Minerva lite. Sure, she's almost STRICTLY outclassed, but being the cheap Knock-off of a great unit often means you're a great unit yourself.

If Minerva's worth 9/10, Camilla's probably 7.5-8.5/10. Still perfectly usable.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. Camilla's technically outclassed in certain niches, but she's still an overall solid unit.

[TheNiddo]

1 hour ago, BANRYU said:

My only question there is what would that do better than a +Speed Minerva running the same skills? Minny has +1 Str and Spd over Camilla, a stronger Mt weapon, lower HP making it easier to hit Desperation's threshold, and Desperation itself is pretty redundant alongside Brave Axe already, isn't it? With Brave Axe lowering your default speed, you're gonna be 4x attacking even less than with Darting Blow 3-- Don't you want to run LaD with EITHER desperation or Brave Axe? I guess the question is, is there anything that Minerva can't kill with Hauteclere/LaD3/Desperation3 that Camilla can with Brave Axe and the other two skills? Or Cherche can't nuke harder with the same skills? I dunno man.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the setup is bad at all, it's perfectly serviceable, but what I'm trying to nail down is what Camilla can do best over the other wyvern ladies (and Mike I guess)... As I said the nice thing about Camilla is that a lot of different sets CAN work well for her, so your set can totally work, but personally speaking I'm being really picky about capitalizing on her unique characteristics ehehe ;;

Thinking on it more Killer Axe is probably not a great option either lol that's just a pitiful attempt to emulate Hauteclere, Brave Axe is probably instantly superior in that regard, but Cherche seems like a better Brave user since she has much higher attack and cares less about her speed being lower. I think Camilla has to take advantage of her speed in order to succeed to some degree. And since her Res is pretty good, I think getting rid of Brave does her a lot of favors since it'll let her tank magic way better without the nerf to her speed. 

She's the mage killing wyvren pretty much. Her natural 31 res vs Minerva's 22/Michalis' 19/Narcian's 26/Cherche's 16/Beruka's 22. Only Narcian comes close, and with LaD Camilla is still tied with him. Emerald Axe in theory helps with this... but then she goes from "hurting from red mages" to "getting destroyed by red mages". 

idk I just think if anybody can even try the Brave Axe + Desperation combo its Camilla. I think Minerva is getting knocked too far down too quickly. 

If you wanted a truly unique setup for Camilla, slap distant counter on her so she can really put the hurt on the mages: good speed and res, ever other wyvren is missing one or the other. Would probably go for an Emerald Axe+ to try to make sure she got the kill as often as possible and could tank the Blues no problem, probably G Tomebreaker in slot B so she can double one of the other two colours. Red she's just SoL against. She'd be the best option for that set up. But uh, not everyone has a spare Hector just kicking around, lol. 

[LordFrigid]

@DehNutCase Alright. I'll give you that, in a vacuum, with Swordbreaker Corrin against Swords, Moonbow is handy. Even if I personally think that Chrom, Eldigan, and Marth are the only people on that list that I think are even remotely worth being concerned about at this moment in time.

I would like to point out, though, that Corrin is probably not in a vacuum. My big problem with some of the builds I see floating around, and even some that I've been thinking of, is that they try to make a character do "everything". Sometimes, a character just isn't capable of that, or would be much better off passing the job to someone better suited to it. I'd much rather use Dragon Fang (less SP investment, one less character required to inherit a skill from, more power which is nice in some situations) and deal with those Sword units with a blue unit.

This is an especially valid argument because Swordbreaker Swords exist, and are going to the blue unit anyway, because even with Moonbow Corrin isn't getting perfect coverage. It's just not his thing. From there, it's not exactly a big leap of logic to also give him the swords he can't deal with without Moonbow. I won't deny that it's nice to have the option of increased coverage from Moonbow...but I'm still calling it unnecessary.

Edited March 27, 2017 by LordFrigid

[DehNutCase]

@LordFrigid If a Swordbreaker character can't deal with Swords, why is he even on the team? (Alternatively, why does he have Swordbreaker?)

Note that, with a Def boon and Fury 3, ONLY Fir, Caeda, Lonqu, Olivia, Lyn, Eliwood, and Hana get 1RKO'd. Of those remaining (aka the bulk of the swords), only Selena without a weapon upgrade fails to KO Corrin in return.

[!Skydiver]

@TheNiddo

Actually, this is a very nice idea.If you think that there's 3 relevant red mages and they all ORKO Camilla or gets really close, you could simply ignore them and do an Emerald Axe+ Distant Counter/Quick Riposte which ensures that she will kill any non red mage at distance, and every blue unit that dares to touch her regardless of speed. Of course you lose the ability to kill Lilina and Sanaki but their defenses are so low that any other hero can do the job, and Camilla couldn't touch Tharja anyway. On the other side it's super easy to maintain the Quick Riposte, when every blue unit hits 0 damage, and losing quick riposte for a dead Nino is a good trade in my opinion.
Of course, pulling a Hector just to feed to Camilla is insane, but we can dream, right?

[LordFrigid]

I never said he couldn't deal with swords. I had an entire list of matchups in my first post saying he can deal with most swords. My point is that because

1. The number of matchups where he needs Moonbow are limited and mostly not worth worrying about (the latter obviously being a matter of personal opinion).
2. Swordbreaker Sword units can exist (the faster of which -Spd Corrin will not be able to handle).
3. Blues are just better at dealing with Swords.

it's unnecessary to run Moonbow and instead, just give the rough matchup to said blue unit.

To answer the question, he's on the team to take pressure off of said blue unit in the cases where it's not impossible or unfeasible for him to do so. And that should be enough. Again...I do not deny that having the options granted by a widened range is useful. I just don't see why it's necessary for the team (note: not Corrin in a vacuum) to be successful.

Also, can you clarify what you mean on the matchups against Def boon + Fury 3 units? I'm seeing the part about the ORKOs, but I'm not getting that every other sword (edit: outside of weapon-upgrade-less Selena) defeats him. Do they all have different weaponry? This is the list I'm seeing:

Edit: Assumptions for the list are 1) Def boon 2) Fury Inheritance 3) Moonbow inherited if there is no default proc (to match up with your post from before).

Spoiler

ALWAYS WINS:
Caeda: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Eirika: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Eliwood: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Fir: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Hana: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Lon'qu: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Lyn: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Olivia: 1 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 1 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Selena: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.
Stahl: 2 round(s) when attacking 1st, and 2 round(s) when attacking 2nd.

WINS WHEN ATTACKING 1st:

WINS WHEN ATTACKING 2nd:
Alfonse: 2 round(s).
Cain: 2 round(s).
Chrom: 2 round(s).
Corrin (M): 2 round(s).
Draug: 2 round(s).
Laslow: 2 round(s).
Lucina: 2 round(s).
Marth: 2 round(s).
Ogma: 2 round(s).
Palla: 2 round(s).
Roy: 2 round(s).
Ryoma: 2 round(s).
Seliph: 2 round(s).

ALWAYS LOSES:
Eldigan
Hinata

This question is mostly so I can pinpoint any errors I might have made in the ol' combat simulator, so if could humor me here I'd appreciate it.

Edited March 27, 2017 by LordFrigid

[BANRYU]

Ahhh a lot of people responded to me ;; dunno if I can really properly respond to everyone but I try ;; 

@ several people: yeah don't get me wrong, Camilla is definitely top-notch in terms of versatility, and for a budget/F2P player (of which I am also) who may not have access to everything that's necessarily optimal she's wonderful, no doubt. I have to stress I'm speaking purely in terms of both theoreticals and optimization when I talk about looking for Camilla's 'niche' or whatever ;; sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record with this or not explaining myself properly or sounding like I'm trying to tell people what to do (not my aim at all) x___x I realize I might not be communicating what I'm trying to get across properly.

It might well be the case that Camilla's true 'niche' IS her versatility? Which actually wouldn't be too bad, I mean flexibility can actually be a threatening thing in its own right since it's much harder to be consistently prepared for. So maybe I shouldn't be too quick to knock down these other sets. I still want to try to find something specific she's better than the other axe fliers though lol ;;

@TheNiddo I guess the question is whether Camilla CAN tank certain red mages... and then, whether she SHOULD (I would argue she shouldn't, in which case Emerald Axe is still a pretty good choice, but...)

Spoiler

 

Regarding the Brave Axe + Desperation combo, I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how that IS a combo...? The whole perk of Desperation is essentially HAVING a brave effect (kinda) on the unit who has it after some damage is taken, which requires good speed... but doesn't a Brave weapon make that kind of redundant? I might be confused on something here but it doesn't quite add up to me; the only way that works, in my mind, is if you're running enough speed to still be able to double your target (in this regard I would think Camilla's default A-skill of Darting Blow would be what you want to run since it compensates for the Brave's speed debuff) so you can 4x attack them without retaliation, which I admit is a cool notion and definitely goes well with a 3-4 charge proc, but I have to wonder how many substantial threats there are that that could actually be used against... I assume maybe Hector is one of them....?? I can take a look at the speed tiers and do some calcs and stuff later maybe but for now I just don't have the time... ;;

I think you and @Jason Funderburker are right though that Distant Counter + mage killing is probably her best bet, she stands a better chance at using that than any of the other axe fliers at least (dunno about fliers in general; Caeda has dat crazy res but IIRC her attack power is kinda weak).... and ranged attacking is a commodity that's nonexistent in the realm of fliers as well. So that could be something. If I happen to get both Hector/Ryoma and Camilla I'll probably do this tbh xDDD Not expecting that kind of luck in the least but I'm crazy enough to do it if given the opportunity xwx

I might use that set for a Camilla analysis lol ;;