Jedi's Thoughts on the FE Warriors news

[Lord-Zero]

@Arthur97:Her main problem here is that she's a Falchion-wielding infantry protagonist. The Marth to new Fire Emblem? I'd have to disagree with that completely. That one would be Chrom. 

The whole "shoo-in" thing...it brings back memories of how people in the Smash community would claim that characters such as King K. Rool, Wolf, Inklings and so on were shoo-ins and look what happened. Fact is that the roster will be kinda tight and the swordsmen we already have cover most bases except flying and armored. Sure, I'm most certainly putting a lot of "stock" on weapon diversity ratio but that was because on how KT mentioned that it was the main reason most protagonists won't make an appearance. 

[Folt]

10 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

I'm actually quite skeptical on Robin at the moment. There's his whole tactician thing but I can see KT bringing their original tactician as well. The 8 swordmen we currently have already cover almost everything sword related except flying. 

They could, but who's to say that they won't have both in there? Having tacticians go up against each other is a thing in Musou games and we do not know if Chrom will automatically join the team.

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, Lord-Zero said:

@Arthur97:Her main problem here is that she's a Falchion-wielding infantry protagonist. The Marth to new Fire Emblem? I'd have to disagree with that completely. That one would be Chrom. 

The whole "shoo-in" thing...it brings back memories of how people in the Smash community would claim that characters such as King K. Rool, Wolf, Inklings and so on were shoo-ins and look what happened. Fact is that the roster will be kinda tight and the swordsmen we already have cover most bases except flying and armored. Sure, I'm most certainly putting a lot of "stock" on weapon diversity ratio but that was because on how KT mentioned that it was the main reason most protagonists won't make an appearance. 

Chrom is not used anywhere near as much by IS as Lucina and that itself may be the key: IS likes Lucina.

The fact is, she is one of the most relevant characters to the series, Falchion or no. They've already ruled out some of their most popular characters, they need at least one of them, and, frankly, Chrom and Marth don't quite cut it as much as she does. Besides, as I keep saying, they've added the same character three times before, one more Falchion user will not break the game.

[Slumber]

5 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Chrom is not used anywhere near as much by IS as Lucina and that itself may be the key: IS likes Lucina.

The fact is, she is one of the most relevant characters to the series, Falchion or no. They've already ruled out some of their most popular characters, they need at least one of them, and, frankly, Chrom and Marth don't quite cut it as much as she does. Besides, as I keep saying, they've added the same character three times before, one more Falchion user will not break the game.

Except we already know Chrom and Marth are in the game.

Lucina has a very distinct problem that hurts her chances if Koei is picking characters for diversity: Lucina is modeled after Marth, and it's a plot point that she fights like Chrom. Since we already have those two, Lucina brings nothing to the table. She'd either be a palette swap of Chrom (Which contradicts Koei's statements of wanting to pick characters within Fates, Awakening and FE1/3 based on diversity), or she just won't be in the game as is.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Slumber

[seantremblay1441]

If we get a third falchion, I'll willing to bet they squeeze Alm in over Lucina at this point. I have no major preference to who gets in, I'm buying it either way but I would be surprised if she was in the base roster. I can see her being DLC but not day one release. They can't use a line like 'Don't want too many swords" than literally add the same sword 3-4 times to the base game. I'm willing to be there will be a awakening "children" DLC at some point headlined by Lucina, which will be a big cash grab

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Except we already know Chrom and Marth are in the game.

Lucina has a very distinct problem that hurts her chances if Koei is picking characters for diversity: Lucina is modeled after Marth, and it's a plot point that she fights like Chrom. Since we already have those two, Lucina brings nothing to the table. She'd either be a palette swap of Chrom (Which contradicts Koei's statements of wanting to pick characters within Fates, Awakening and FE1/3 based on diversity), or she just won't be in the game as is.

I still think you're underestimating their ability to make characters fight uniquely. Besides, while focusing the game was a good decision, not using the biggest character from the selected games would be a poor decision to say the least. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised so many people are doubting this.

[Raguna]

8 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

I still think you're underestimating their ability to make characters fight uniquely. Besides, while focusing the game was a good decision, not using the biggest character from the selected games would be a poor decision to say the least. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised so many people are doubting this.

Ditto on the doubt. I'm pretty sure Lucina will be in the base game, diversity or no I highly doubt the popular lady that overshadows her dad won't be here. I don't even like Lucina but DLC isn't something she'd be when her presence in the game is enough to entice a good selection of more casual fans of the series to buy this game.

For the most part, you guys just need to chill and wait a bit more. We've only gotten four units confirmed, Xander, Ryoma and Corrin by proxy of the swords in the teaser trailer and Anna from the website. There's still a bit more waiting for us and I can almost guarantee that Lucina will be showing up soon or at some point in the game's announcements.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Raguna

[Anacybele]

Lord-Zero, it seems like you just need to accept that a lot of people disagree with you. I don't even like Lucina at all and I agree with those saying she's most certainly going to be in this.

Besides, by your logic, Ike has a better chance of getting in because he actually has a more unique style of swordplay in addition to a lot of popularity AND a secondary weapon in axes, yet you acted like he had less of a chance than anybody within the 3 main chosen games. :P

[Lord-Zero]

@Anacybele: Eh? I'm just stating my points even if most people here disagree. That's the purpose of a discussion anyway; a battle of different points of view. We'll forever disagree. 

Oh, Ike, it truly depends if Darius or Shion would be slow powerhouses. The fact that Ike isn't from Archanea nor Ylisse puts him in a difficult position. Same with people like Eliwood, Ephraim, Alm, Sigurd and other protagonists.

@Arthur97: I'm not underestimating KT's ability to make characters unique; it's Lucina's base what makes her redundant in the face of the already confirmed Marth and Chrom and their status as protagonists of their respective titles. Sure, popularity is a thing but if they haven't said that this wasn't going to be a gathering of protagonists nor wanted to apply a balanced weapon diversity in the roster, then I would be saying something completely different. You seem convinced of the while "shoo-in" thing but I'd rather take a wait-and-see approach seeing how people get so hopeful for "shoo-ins" only to be disappointed and angry in the end. We are just looking at things very differently. 

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

@Anacybele: Eh? I'm just stating my points even if most people here disagree. That's the purpose of a discussion anyway; a battle of different points of view. We'll forever disagree. 

Oh, Ike, it truly depends if Darius or Shion would be slow powerhouses. The fact that Ike isn't from Archanea nor Ylisse puts him in a difficult position. Same with people like Eliwood, Ephraim, Alm, Sigurd and other protagonists.

@Arthur97: I'm not underestimating KT's ability to make characters unique; it's Lucina's base what makes her redundant in the face of the already confirmed Marth and Chrom and their status as protagonists of their respective titles. Sure, popularity is a thing but if they haven't said that this wasn't going to be a gathering of protagonists nor wanted to apply a balanced weapon diversity in the roster, then I would be saying something completely different. You seem convinced of the while "shoo-in" thing but I'd rather take a wait-and-see approach seeing how people get so hopeful for "shoo-ins" only to be disappointed and angry in the end. We are just looking at things very differently. 

Yet, others have also pointed out that Koei does pay attention to popularity. This is even also seen in Hyrule Warriors to an extent. Midna is popular, and so is Ghirahim. I'd argue that Tetra and Tingle are too (in Japan for the latter anyway. The west actually generally hates Tingle).

Granted, some of these fanservice characters were DLC, but they could've easily picked someone like Ashei over Midna or Nabooru over Ruto if they wanted someone who would truly fit in that game. But no, they went with both versions of Midna as well as Ruto instead.

Characters like Ike and Lucina have a LOT of popularity within their universe.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Anacybele

[Arthur97]

11 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

@Anacybele: Eh? I'm just stating my points even if most people here disagree. That's the purpose of a discussion anyway; a battle of different points of view. We'll forever disagree. 

Oh, Ike, it truly depends if Darius or Shion would be slow powerhouses. The fact that Ike isn't from Archanea nor Ylisse puts him in a difficult position. Same with people like Eliwood, Ephraim, Alm, Sigurd and other protagonists.

@Arthur97: I'm not underestimating KT's ability to make characters unique; it's Lucina's base what makes her redundant in the face of the already confirmed Marth and Chrom and their status as protagonists of their respective titles. Sure, popularity is a thing but if they haven't said that this wasn't going to be a gathering of protagonists nor wanted to apply a balanced weapon diversity in the roster, then I would be saying something completely different. You seem convinced of the while "shoo-in" thing but I'd rather take a wait-and-see approach seeing how people get so hopeful for "shoo-ins" only to be disappointed and angry in the end. We are just looking at things very differently. 

You seem almost sure she won't make it when in reality, that outcome seems unlikely. Did you doubt if Ganondorf would make it to HW because he was not shown immediately? You say redundant, but I say they need the biggest name in those games. Of course, you seem to think Chrom is the new Marth, so your perceptions seem a little skewed. Also, they said they didn't want everyone using swords, I almost gurantee we are not getting an even mix of swords, lances, and axes with swords easily being the most numerous and why they decided to cut other games, but within the confines of the games we do have, it makes sense to include the lords. Swords or no.

Also, let's not forget something very important: she's female. KT really loves their female characters.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Arthur97

[Lord-Zero]

Good grief. My point is not to be hyped (at least to me) about anyone at this point due to the restrictions KT has set up for the roster. 

@Anacybele You're putting too much stock on character popularity alone to carry these characters but that's just me. 

@Arthur97: More like she's not a "shoo-in" due to the fact that she brings nothing new to the table but she's still a possibility. Don't guarantee anything; you're likely to set yourself up for disappointment. Relying in gender now? Good grief. KT would have Tharja and Camilla to play with as well as the loli version of Tiki among others. Only time will tell. 

 

 

[HK Motendra]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

I still think you're underestimating their ability to make characters fight uniquely. Besides, while focusing the game was a good decision, not using the biggest character from the selected games would be a poor decision to say the least. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised so many people are doubting this.

Think about this for a sec on exactly HOW it is that KT actually makes every character unique: their choice in weapons. If you look at the entire roster of DW, yes, there are a good amount of swords, but the reason that everyone is unique is what KIND of sword they have. For example, you have the characters Liu Bei and Lu Xun. From pure looks, alone, one can easily deduce that their weapons are similar, yet when you actually play them, they (currently) are very visually different (partly due to the fact that each character additionally has their own unique signature move that even if you use their signature weapon as someone else, you couldn't do it). Liu Bei's weapon is called Twin Swords, while Lu Xun's is the Swallow Swords. So that all of you can see the difference yourself, I've linked gameplay videos of both characters for you:

Chrom and Lucina are literally and physically using the same weapon and sword, along with the fact that mostly everything about her as a unit was visually modeled after Marth. Going by KT's method of differentiating characters and their movesets, unless they gave Lucina an entirely different sword/weapon, there is literally NO WAY to differentiate her from either Chrom or Marth. Or rather its just unlikely that they could, if in the chance that she does make it to the roster

This is precisely why its important to consider the Warriors side of this crossover, as well as Fire Emblem cause this game is taking after both. To the Warriors fan base do you honestly believe it matters how popular a character is that they should be entitled to being in the game  "just because"? Sure, I suppose it COULD at least be somewhat of a factor but at the end of the day, how the character plays in combat, as well as the story are equally important, otherwise, they'd just be another generic officer, just like nearly EVERY ADDITIONAL CHARACTER throughout the series, up until they became playable.

For this reason is also why Ike is not an "easy shoe-in", as many seems to assume--or rather, the common arguments used in his favor. Yes, by all accounts, he is definitely the most unconventional main character for not being noble, but if he wasn't a main character, would it not be a stretch to say that he's just another mercenary unit? After all, that flashy Aether animation of his? Was derived from the crit animation of the GBA era's Mercenary units, who, just from the way mercs have been visually designed throughout the series, also use heavy swords.However, despite this, he does have a unique weapon all to himself--Ragnell-- to work off of.

Ultimate point being, roster consideration, along with character play style variety is not so simple as the majority of this fan base is making it out to be. Without a signature weapon to work off of--which pretty much 95% of the FE's entire cast throughout ever game doesn't have unless they're the main character-- even popular characters should not be entitled to a place on the roster just because of how recognizable they are.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Motendra

[Anacybele]

15 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

You're putting too much stock on character popularity alone to carry these characters but that's just me.

Nah, not really. But that's just me.

13 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Chrom and Lucina are literally and physically using the same weapon and sword, along with the fact that mostly everything about her as a unit was visually modeled after Marth. Going by KT's method of differentiating characters and their movesets, unless they gave Lucina an entirely different sword/weapon, there is literally NO WAY to differentiate her from either Chrom or Marth.

Except Marth is also using the same weapon, the Falchion. Its design is different, but its properties are fundamentally the same. Good against axes and dragons.

And Chrom and Lucina could realistically be given different weapons. They'd both have Falchion access, but one of them could also get lances while another gets bows. Hell, if I remember right, Lucina got a bow in Codename Steam.

Similarly, Ike has both a unique sword and also axe access as you yourself pointed out

Edited June 1, 2017 by Anacybele

[Jedi]

24 minutes ago, Motendra said:

This is precisely why its important to consider the Warriors side of this crossover, as well as Fire Emblem cause this game is taking after both. To the Warriors fan base do you honestly believe it matters how popular a character is that they should be entitled to being in the game  "just because"? Sure, I suppose it COULD at least be somewhat of a factor but at the end of the day, how the character plays in combat, as well as the story are equally important, otherwise, they'd just be another generic officer, just like nearly EVERY ADDITIONAL CHARACTER throughout the series, up until they became playable.

Yes, because popularity drives sales, the more notable characters in the game the more copies it'll sell, and there are very very easy ways to difference Chrom & Lucina from each other in terms of fighting style even with the same weapon. Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Jian & Yuan Shao in Dynasty Warriors 3 through 5 all used a long sword, but had very different movesets despite a similarly looking base, DW3-5 were way better about their diversity than 6-8 ever could contend with, 8 finally got people to be unique again, but it took way too long to get back to where we already where with DW5 in terms of movesets.

Us Dynasty Warriors players are typically familiar with Romance of the Three Kingdoms and popularity from that drives it too. (Which is why Shu is usually given the focus it has)

Do we need remind you that Hyrule Warriors had 3 Links all with Sword & Shields that all fought entirely differently despite for all intents and purposes being the same character.

Project X Zone noted the similarities but also noted Lucina's class change options ontop of it, there is plenty of room to work here, being close minded like this isn't going to help your case.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Jedi

[The DanMan]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Which contradicts Koei's statements of wanting to pick characters within Fates, Awakening and FE1/3 based on diversity

They've already contradicted the claim making the 3 OCs all use swords. The quote's just a PR excuse that doesn't mean squat right out of the gate.

Lucina will be in the game-- I'll be shocked if she's not.

[Tolvir]

1 minute ago, The DanMan said:

They've already contradicted the claim making the 3 OCs all use swords. The quote's just a PR excuse that doesn't mean squat right out of the gate.

Lucina will be in the game-- I'll be shocked if she's not.

Lucina just needs to be literally shown at this point. She is practically poised to be the face of the series if it wasnt for Marth's popularity in Japan. If Marth was never introduced to the West outside of Smash, Lucina would likely of been the face of Fire Emblem. She is a shoe in for sure.

I think the issue with the sword stuff was a lack of communication combined with non official translating. He really back tracked on his statement on Twitter after that shitstorm started, so I wouldnt put a ton of stock into that comment.

[Raguna]

1 minute ago, The DanMan said:

They've already contradicted the claim making the 3 OCs all use swords. The quote's just a PR excuse that doesn't mean squat right out of the gate.

Lucina will be in the game-- I'll be shocked if she's not.

I'm going to be a bit hopeful here and think that since they're OC avatars, we'll get the chance to change their weapons to any other type of weapon in the character creation screen. Alongside that with some horribly needed hair style change for the dude.

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

Chrom is not used anywhere near as much by IS as Lucina and that itself may be the key: IS likes Lucina.

The fact is, she is one of the most relevant characters to the series, Falchion or no.

I wouldn't word it that way for several reasons, but I agree with the majority here. In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that Lucina will be in.

[Anacybele]

9 minutes ago, Raguna said:

I'm going to be a bit hopeful here and think that since they're OC avatars

What? Where did anything say that these characters were Avatars? I was under the impression that they were entirely their own characters and not customizable like Robin and Corrin.

[Ertrick36]

I'd be surprised if Lucy isn't in.  She's far too iconic.

Also, how are some people so sure that the OC protagonists will be avatars?  I don't seem to recall them ever stating that they were avatars...  And I'd think they'd be advertising them as such if they were.

Though I'm not necessarily saying that they aren't...  It's just I think some might be jumping the gun.

[Raguna]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

What? Where did anything say that these characters were Avatars? I was under the impression that they were entirely their own characters and not customizable like Robin and Corrin.

Actually you may have a point there. I thought you'd play as one of them considering their playstyle would be pretty identical aside from gender. There is no basis for what I said in the customization, it's more something I hope gets added if these people are indeed Avatars. Samurai Warriors 3 Chronicles did something to the effect where you could customize the appearance of the main player characters so that's where I thought it up.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Raguna said:

Actually you may have a point there. I thought you'd play as one of them considering their playstyle would be pretty identical aside from gender. There is no basis for what I said in the customization, it's more something I hope gets added if these people are indeed Avatars. Samurai Warriors 3 Chronicles did something to the effect where you could customize the appearance of the main player characters so that's where I thought it up.

Thing is, both are shown together as separate and set genders while you could choose whether Robin and Corrin were male or female. And imo, Shion and Lian don't look as generic. Not to mention the two different names going on there, something else Robin and Corrin didn't have.

[Tolvir]

I think if Warriors has a customizable character, its not any of those three. They already have names, and a major story presence from the look of it. And if there is a chance of full voice acting, it will be kind of hard to make them avatars if they already have established names like that.

If there is an avatar, they are a seperate character.

[Ertrick36]

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Thing is, both are shown together as separate and set genders while you could choose whether Robin and Corrin were male or female. And imo, Shion and Lian don't look as generic. Not to mention the two different names going on there, something else Robin and Corrin didn't have.

I suppose they could pull a Mass Effect Andromeda/Fallout 4, where there's a male and female counterpart, one of which you get to pick as your main avatar.  Though with the kind of game this is, that'd be a little strange.

Also, I'd say on a generic level, they're probably more along the lines of Kris maybe, at least in that they don't have just a blank white hair color, or as generic a color scheme in general.

1 minute ago, Tolvir said:

I think if Warriors has a customizable character, its not any of those three. They already have names, and a major story presence from the look of it.

Is that really so different from pre-existing avatars in the series?  They all have "established" names.  And other games where the avatar has a customizable name just have their names omitted from dialogue so that they don't have to write lines for every single instance of that name.  Or they have a surname/title.  Or they don't even give you an option to change the name, because that's honestly just superficial in most games anyway.

I am skeptical at the notion of them being avatars because I honestly think they'd be advertising them as such by now, but I'm not going to assume that they won't be customizable in some way until we're well into the development cycle without news on this regard or we are told otherwise.