What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

On the subject of the Black Knight, isn't some aspects of the whole "I want you to get stronger so I can fight as if it was against my teacher" added to localization? So in the original he doesn't actually have that motivation. Or not a whole lot of it, at least.

I can only speak to the version I played.

[Etrurian emperor]

Not sure how unpopular this is since I never hear people talk about Bern's appeal as an antagonist but I find Bern far more interesting when it isn't the antagonistic nation.

The thing about Binding Blade's Bern is that its kinda boring. Its just your evil conquering nation. Sure, the king is a nutter wanting to wipe out humanity because of some daddy issues, but aside from some exception Bern doesn't know that's what they're fighting for. The entire upper class of Bern being misanthropes due to mistreatment from the former king could have been pretty interesting, but they're just normal pricks for the most part. Compared to other antagonistic countries like Tracia, Daein or even Archenea Bern is lacking some oomph. In truth Etruria seems to be the more interesting antagonist with its ruthless colonialism and its inner conflict between loyalists and scheming politicians. 

Its not really a big focus but Blazing Blade's Bern seems more interesting due to how much of a hellhole it is. Nobles feasting in their mansions while their citizens starve, nobles inviting citizens to dinner and then butchering them, Desmond apparently locking up every noble he doesn't like or military commanders selling ranks and staging fake rebellions so they can butcher civilians and get some fake glory. Zephiel putting an end to all the chaos and corruption reflects will on his ability as king, but narratively he seems to have forgotten to give Bern some traits to replace the ones he took away. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Not sure how unpopular this is since I never hear people talk about Bern's appeal as an antagonist but I find Bern far more interesting when it isn't the antagonistic nation.

The thing about Binding Blade's Bern is that its kinda boring. Its just your evil conquering nation. Sure, the king is a nutter wanting to wipe out humanity because of some daddy issues, but aside from some exception Bern doesn't know that's what they're fighting for. The entire upper class of Bern being misanthropes due to mistreatment from the former king could have been pretty interesting, but they're just normal pricks for the most part. Compared to other antagonistic countries like Tracia, Daein or even Archenea Bern is lacking some oomph. In truth Etruria seems to be the more interesting antagonist with its ruthless colonialism and its inner conflict between loyalists and scheming politicians. 

Its not really a big focus but Blazing Blade's Bern seems more interesting due to how much of a hellhole it is. Nobles feasting in their mansions while their citizens starve, nobles inviting citizens to dinner and then butchering them, Desmond apparently locking up every noble he doesn't like or military commanders selling ranks and staging fake rebellions so they can butcher civilians and get some fake glory. Zephiel putting an end to all the chaos and corruption reflects will on his ability as king, but narratively he seems to have forgotten to give Bern some traits to replace the ones he took away. 

I don't think Bern's upper class are meant to be misanthropes, though I agree that could be interesting. I think the main thing they're going for is that it's the cult of personality around Zelguis that is the main motivator of things. They don't know what they're fighting for, but they're just so damn enthralled by him as the perfect king, they're willing to follow him into the jaws of hell itself, even after he's dead. Largely agree with you, and I also feel that it's a major issue with Grado in the Sacred Stones too. Though Sacred Stones is a bit notrious for having week world building any way.

[Samz707]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:31 AM, Shadow Mir said:

 

-Garreg Mach Monastery was better designed than My Castle. Sure, it gets repetitive and tedious, but as stated above, the fact that Fates has many features that require heavy use of online to get any real use out of is really immersion breaking.

 

Agreed, playing Fates after 3H, I am amazed at how terrible My Castle is.

Why is cooking random.

People talk up how great it is compared to Garreg Mach, but for me, all it did was make me appreciate Koei's Garreg Mach even more. 

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Agreed, playing Fates after 3H, I am amazed at how terrible My Castle is.

Why is cooking random.

People talk up how great it is compared to Garreg Mach, but for me, all it did was make me appreciate Koei's Garreg Mach even more. 

For me, it's all "why the fuck does this game practically have to shove online down my throat if I am to get any use out of 99.9% of its features" with regard to Fates. Apparently they forgot it is a goddamn handheld game, which means one can - and most likely will - be playing on the go, and in those cases, as well as if the weather is not good, a lot of features become that much harder to use. Also, the double standard that Garreg Mach gets subjected to pisses me off. Sure, it gets repetitive and tedious, but I'd rather that than have to be forced to go online just to make any real use out of most of the features in a fucking single player game that I can be playing on the go.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For me, it's all "why the fuck does this game practically have to shove online down my throat if I am to get any use out of 99.9% of its features" with regard to Fates. Apparently they forgot it is a goddamn handheld game, which means one can - and most likely will - be playing on the go, and in those cases, as well as if the weather is not good, a lot of features become that much harder to use. Also, the double standard that Garreg Mach gets subjected to pisses me off. Sure, it gets repetitive and tedious, but I'd rather that than have to be forced to go online just to make any real use out of most of the features in a fucking single player game that I can be playing on the go.

Have you tried not using the online features and just playing the game? As someone on the arbitrarily split European wifi track, that's what I did and the My Castle features are absolutely fine.

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Have you tried not using the online features and just playing the game? As someone on the arbitrarily split European wifi track, that's what I did and the My Castle features are absolutely fine.

I have played without online, and while I don't agree with Mir's more hyperbolic objections, I will say that I had problems with it. Now, it certainly didn't help that this was my first playthrough and I was playing entirely sight-unseen and spoiler-free so I doubtless made a lot of mistakes like putting down buildings in the wrong order or not making enough use of the arena. And it definitely didn't help that the food resource that I randomly got was daikon (which buffs res). The game was certainly still playable, but I definitely felt that there was a certain friction there. Cooking felt useless. Forging felt weirdly restricted. Having way more buildings available than I had DVP to place them made me way more worried about which ones I should build than I should have been. That sort of stuff.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I have played without online, and while I don't agree with Mir's more hyperbolic objections, I will say that I had problems with it. Now, it certainly didn't help that this was my first playthrough and I was playing entirely sight-unseen and spoiler-free so I doubtless made a lot of mistakes like putting down buildings in the wrong order or not making enough use of the arena. And it definitely didn't help that the food resource that I randomly got was daikon (which buffs res). The game was certainly still playable, but I definitely felt that there was a certain friction there. Cooking felt useless. Forging felt weirdly restricted. Having way more buildings available than I had DVP to place them made me way more worried about which ones I should build than I should have been. That sort of stuff.

Not knowing the most effective thing to do on a blind playthrough is naturally going to be part of the learning experience. But I've played Fate like eight times now and I have never once felt like I was missing out by basically ignoring the online social stuff, which I pretty much always do because there really is no pressing need for it.  Though I do fully indulge on the online items like Strength Taker and Dread Fighter after my initial playthroughs, because that stuff is super fun, but I think even Lunatic Conquest is more than manageable to finish with a complete embargo on online content completely.

[lenticular]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not knowing the most effective thing to do on a blind playthrough is naturally going to be part of the learning experience.

For sure. I guess that my argument would be that the learning curve without online is considerably steeper than the learning curve with online. And that I personally found this extra steepness more frustrating than rewarding. (Like I said, my version of all this is very low on the hyperbole.)

[Xander]

I love Engage and I wish more people appreciated it for what it is.

[KMT4ever]

On 8/13/2023 at 4:35 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Not sure how unpopular this is since I never hear people talk about Bern's appeal as an antagonist but I find Bern far more interesting when it isn't the antagonistic nation.

The thing about Binding Blade's Bern is that its kinda boring. Its just your evil conquering nation. Sure, the king is a nutter wanting to wipe out humanity because of some daddy issues, but aside from some exception Bern doesn't know that's what they're fighting for. The entire upper class of Bern being misanthropes due to mistreatment from the former king could have been pretty interesting, but they're just normal pricks for the most part. Compared to other antagonistic countries like Tracia, Daein or even Archenea Bern is lacking some oomph. In truth Etruria seems to be the more interesting antagonist with its ruthless colonialism and its inner conflict between loyalists and scheming politicians. 

Its not really a big focus but Blazing Blade's Bern seems more interesting due to how much of a hellhole it is. Nobles feasting in their mansions while their citizens starve, nobles inviting citizens to dinner and then butchering them, Desmond apparently locking up every noble he doesn't like or military commanders selling ranks and staging fake rebellions so they can butcher civilians and get some fake glory. Zephiel putting an end to all the chaos and corruption reflects will on his ability as king, but narratively he seems to have forgotten to give Bern some traits to replace the ones he took away. 

To be fair Bern's purpose in FE7 is to be a kingdom undergoing political tensions, while in FE6 it's the classic evil empire. However, I do like that unlike in most FE games you actually spend relatively few chapters fighting Bern proper, mostly just a few flights of wyvern riders here and there backing up their collaborators. If I remember correctly Bern is the primary enemy in:

• Chapters 2 and 3 (and even in the former they're technically traitors to the crown by kidnapping Guinivere)
• Chapters 14 and 14x
• Chapter 20x on the Ilian route
• Chapters 21, 21x, 22, and 23

Combined with the litany of traitors that Bern somehow found in every other country it keeps things from feeling too stale, because 2/3 of the way through Shadow Dragon I was really wondering how Grust still had any soldiers left after I spent at least 10 chapters slaughtering them. Or how even after Grado falls its "Remnants" still have enough soldiers to take up half of the endgame.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, KMT4ever said:

To be fair Bern's purpose in FE7 is to be a kingdom undergoing political tensions, while in FE6 it's the classic evil empire. However, I do like that unlike in most FE games you actually spend relatively few chapters fighting Bern proper, mostly just a few flights of wyvern riders here and there backing up their collaborators. If I remember correctly Bern is the primary enemy in:

• Chapters 2 and 3 (and even in the former they're technically traitors to the crown by kidnapping Guinivere)
• Chapters 14 and 14x
• Chapter 20x on the Ilian route
• Chapters 21, 21x, 22, and 23

Combined with the litany of traitors that Bern somehow found in every other country it keeps things from feeling too stale, because 2/3 of the way through Shadow Dragon I was really wondering how Grust still had any soldiers left after I spent at least 10 chapters slaughtering them. Or how even after Grado falls its "Remnants" still have enough soldiers to take up half of the endgame.

I feel what you're saying, but I think Bern might actually beat Grust looking at your list of chapters there. Nine chapters are quite a lot, they're just not grouped together. So, for comparison, let me list the primary enemy of each of Marth's chapters.

 

Chapters 1,2,3: Bandits

Chapters 4-7: Macedon

Chapter 8: Grust

Chapter 9: Pyrathi

Chapter 10 and 11: Grust

Chapter 12 Grust/Dolhr (see conversations about retcons errors, Volzerk and Grustian Manaketes)

Chapter 13: Grust

Chapter 14: Gra

Chapter 15: Khadein

Chapter 16: Grust

Chapter 17: Dolhr (and unlike the Millennium Court, this one's actually consistent)

Chapter 18: Grust

Chapter 19: Uh? Khadein, I guess? They're listed as Raman, except in Mystery of the Emblem where they're Dolhr, but that makes no sense as they're fighting for Gharnef who is explicitly doing something Medeus wouldn't approve of.

Chapter 20: Grust

Chapter 21 and 22: Macedon

Chapter 23: Khadein

Chapter 24 and Endgame: Dolhr

So the total list is

Bandits: 3 Chapters

Macedon: 6 Chapters

Grust: 7/8 Chapters

Pyrathi: 1 Chapter

Gra: 1 Chapter

Khadein: 3 Chapters

Dolhr: 3/4 Chapters

 

So you do indeed fight Grust the most, but you actually fight them less than you fight Bern. At least in absolute terms. Binding Blade is a longer game with its Gaidens and route splits. Factoring in Shadow Dragon's Gaidens also does have Grust jumping over Bern in absolute numbers, though to go back to the original point, narratively these are small remnant forces that don't really make a difference to the overall war effort. For completion, the DS exclusive chapters would be

Prologue 1-4: Gra (really appreciate

Chapter 6x: Bandits

Chapter 12x: Grust/Dolhr (again, much like the Millennium Court chapter, the game gives conflicting information)

Chapter 17x: Grust

Chapter 20x: Grust

Chapter 24x: Who the hell knows. They're only listed as Keeper.

Bandits: 4 Chapters

Macedon: 6 Chapters

Grust: 9/11 Chapters

Pyrathi: 1 Chapter

Gra: 5 Chapters

Khadein: 3 Chapters

Dolhr: 3/5 Chapters

???: 1 Chapter

[Acacia Sgt]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Chapters 4-7: Macedon

Chapter 7 is mostly Grust with a couple Macedon Dragoons.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Chapter 19: Uh? Khadein, I guess? They're listed as Raman, except in Mystery of the Emblem where they're Dolhr, but that makes no sense as they're fighting for Gharnef who is explicitly doing something Medeus wouldn't approve of.

I'd think those are indeed Raman locals. Even Mystery kept the thieves as Raman even when relabeling the rest.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Chapter 7 is mostly Grust with a couple Macedon Dragoons.

I'd think those are indeed Raman locals. Even Mystery kept the thieves as Raman even when relabeling the rest.

So it is. Which is a bit strange plotwise. As the idea of the chapter is to introduce Minerva and you've been fighting Macedon for the past few chapters. With the next chapter being Marth forced to retreat because he's going up against Grust's superior forces. The boss of Lefcandith valley is also certainly Macedon as in all versions he's upset about the Macedonians killed in Aurelius and even uses "us" in DS (at least in English). Though in the NES version he says the king (I assume Michalis) ordered him there while in the DS he says the emperor (Medeus?)

Edited August 15, 2023 by Jotari

[KMT4ever]

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

I feel what you're saying, but I think Bern might actually beat Grust looking at your list of chapters there. Nine chapters are quite a lot, they're just not grouped together. So, for comparison, let me list the primary enemy of each of Marth's chapters.

 

Chapters 1,2,3: Bandits

Chapters 4-7: Macedon

Chapter 8: Grust

Chapter 9: Pyrathi

Chapter 10 and 11: Grust

Chapter 12 Grust/Dolhr (see conversations about retcons errors, Volzerk and Grustian Manaketes)

Chapter 13: Grust

Chapter 14: Gra

Chapter 15: Khadein

Chapter 16: Grust

Chapter 17: Dolhr (and unlike the Millennium Court, this one's actually consistent)

Chapter 18: Grust

Chapter 19: Uh? Khadein, I guess? They're listed as Raman, except in Mystery of the Emblem where they're Dolhr, but that makes no sense as they're fighting for Gharnef who is explicitly doing something Medeus wouldn't approve of.

Chapter 20: Grust

Chapter 21 and 22: Macedon

Chapter 23: Khadein

Chapter 24 and Endgame: Dolhr

So the total list is

Bandits: 3 Chapters

Macedon: 6 Chapters

Grust: 7/8 Chapters

Pyrathi: 1 Chapter

Gra: 1 Chapter

Khadein: 3 Chapters

Dolhr: 3/4 Chapters

 

So you do indeed fight Grust the most, but you actually fight them less than you fight Bern. At least in absolute terms. Binding Blade is a longer game with its Gaidens and route splits. Factoring in Shadow Dragon's Gaidens also does have Grust jumping over Bern in absolute numbers, though to go back to the original point, narratively these are small remnant forces that don't really make a difference to the overall war effort. For completion, the DS exclusive chapters would be

Prologue 1-4: Gra (really appreciate

Chapter 6x: Bandits

Chapter 12x: Grust/Dolhr (again, much like the Millennium Court chapter, the game gives conflicting information)

Chapter 17x: Grust

Chapter 20x: Grust

Chapter 24x: Who the hell knows. They're only listed as Keeper.

Bandits: 4 Chapters

Macedon: 6 Chapters

Grust: 9/11 Chapters

Pyrathi: 1 Chapter

Gra: 5 Chapters

Khadein: 3 Chapters

Dolhr: 3/5 Chapters

???: 1 Chapter

Huh. It's probably because my last playthrough of Shadow Dragon was modded to include the Gaiden chapters automatically, but I thought you fought Grust more than you apparently do. It might also be because they tend to be the enemy in the bigger, more dramatic levels like Port Warren or the exteriors of Archanea and Altea Castles.

Anyway, my point is more that you mostly get small tastes of Bern proper until the game is almost over, at which point you're barraged with massive hordes of elite troops that truly feel like the army of the strongest nation in Elibe, something worthy of the main antagonist nation. Meanwhile Grust is easily the least narratively interesting of Dolhr's minions, yet they dominate the middle of the game and present way more of a threat than Dolhr, Macedon*, or Gra.

*I've always found Macedon's role in the story weird. The game makes such a big deal out of Minerva and the Whitewings, and along with bandits Macedon is the primary enemy in the beginning, but after the recapture of Aurelis in Chapter 6 they completely disappear as enemies until Grust falls and you hit them on their home ground in Chapter 21. I remember reaching that chapter and genuinely forgetting that I had actually fought Macedon before and wondering where they'd been the whole story.

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

*I've always found Macedon's role in the story weird. The game makes such a big deal out of Minerva and the Whitewings, and along with bandits Macedon is the primary enemy in the beginning, but after the recapture of Aurelis in Chapter 6 they completely disappear as enemies until Grust falls and you hit them on their home ground in Chapter 21. I remember reaching that chapter and genuinely forgetting that I had actually fought Macedon before and wondering where they'd been the whole story.

Not quite. Almost every time, if you fight an enemy PK or Dracoknight, they're usually labeled Dragoon, which are Macedon forces. Perhaps it can be inferred they needed to recover from the failure to take Aurelis (they have been fighting for two years there on their own, after all), so they only could give minor air support to their allies in the meantime.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/14/2023 at 3:58 AM, Jotari said:

Have you tried not using the online features and just playing the game? As someone on the arbitrarily split European wifi track, that's what I did and the My Castle features are absolutely fine.

I do, and that's where My Castle falls down like a house of cards. Especially with regards to the mess hall since you cannot trade away less useful foodstuffs for ones that give more useful boosts. It's annoying how for most of the game, meals are like, "Let me try... dammit, the wrong units got boosted, try again... crud, it happened again, let's go again.... FUCK, I'm out of food". Or worse, the person manning the mess hall is one of the handful of bad chefs in the game, which is gonna be an issue regardless as at least one of your earlier recruits is such a chef. In all routes (even if I disregard Felicia on account of Corrin's gender, there's Setsuna, Rinkah, Hinoka, Arthur, and Reina; at least one of these joins fairly early in the campaign depending on route). And that's not even getting into how the resource you get from your own castle is randomized, meaning if you get daikon, cabbage, peaches or berries (the former two boost resistance and the latter two magic; both of those stats aren't always going to be useful), the mess hall is going to be almost useless. It sucks to want to cook a meal to make something like Conquest chapter 10 easier, but having berries or cabbage in your castle means you can't get much mileage out of it (or ANY in the case of cabbage, as everything in said chapter is physical, thus boosted resistance is useless). Don't get me started on how these, as well as ores, are also used to bribe captures so you don't have to wait to actually use them. Contrast Three Houses, where I can actually factor in food buffs into my strategy. Do I need +4 speed for unit X to hit crucial benchmarks in the next main map? Not a problem, I just need to get some Bullheads. 

On 8/7/2023 at 12:07 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Nergal gets a lot of flack for not just killing the Heroes, but I've always found that complaint overinflated, and a little but unfair since more damning cases mostly get a pass on this matter.  

Three times Nergal leaves without killing the party. I suppose that's not a good looking number but context is important.

-The first case there's no conscious decision of Nergal to spare the team. He just happens to get killed before being able to harm them.
-In the second case Nergal leaves because he gets what he came for. Him not harming the heroes is even an explicit deal he makes with Ninian. 
-Third and finally he spares the team out of a favor to Athos for being a former friend and out of respect towards a fellow sorcerer. Not the best reason in the word, but it is a reason.

This in contrast to Gharnef who also spares Marth on account of dubious reasons but doesn't really get criticized over it. This despite the reason being far more dubious than those of Nergal ever were. Nergal leaves because achieved his goal, and because he still respects his bond with another person. Gharnef leaves because....he's just bored. And Nergal leaving doesn't really cost him much, but Gharnef sparring Marth out of boredom comes at his own direct expense. It leads to Marth conquering Gharnef's kingdom, the kingdom of which the ownership was so important to Gharnef that not getting it drove him insane. It also eliminates Khadain from the Dolhr war machine, and leaves alive the one person that can slay Medeus.  

And other villains aren't much different. They don't go up in the heroes face and gloat about it like Nergal but the trend of overwhelmingly powerful(or just relatively powerful) villains being able to crush the heroes at any time, but just leave is present in most games. Julius for instant can teleport and is functionally immortal but even when coming on the battlefield he doesn't crush the liberation army in its infancy. Narshen repeatedly flees from Roy and has a much weaker subordinate take over, and only one time is his retreat forced by Roy getting outside help. Valter is obsessed with kidnapping Eirika but when its just her and Seth he leaves because he wants to enjoy ''the hunt''. The Black Knight refuses to kill Ike because he's desperate for a sparring match, and on and on it goes. 

Bolded: That's the one where Elbert injures him badly enough that he needs to flee, right? He then proceeds to mobilize the Black Fang in response.

Anyways...

Ross is NOT the best trainee unit in Sacred Stones. I'll grant that his coming early means he doesn't need the Tower of Valni to get up to speed like Amelia and Ewan do, but he doesn't really give anything of note for it, frankly; I see hype for water walking as a Pirate, but that's practically useless, even in the ONE map where it might have proven useful (oh, and said map is on Eirika route). His stats aren't anything special either; after you get him into a real class, he just turns out to be his father, but worse. And if I use the Ocean Seal to make him a Berserker, I get... something that's basically Dozla, who is already pretty lousy, but needed to be raised to get there.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

21 hours ago, KMT4ever said:

Huh. It's probably because my last playthrough of Shadow Dragon was modded to include the Gaiden chapters automatically, but I thought you fought Grust more than you apparently do. It might also be because they tend to be the enemy in the bigger, more dramatic levels like Port Warren or the exteriors of Archanea and Altea Castles.

Anyway, my point is more that you mostly get small tastes of Bern proper until the game is almost over, at which point you're barraged with massive hordes of elite troops that truly feel like the army of the strongest nation in Elibe, something worthy of the main antagonist nation. Meanwhile Grust is easily the least narratively interesting of Dolhr's minions, yet they dominate the middle of the game and present way more of a threat than Dolhr, Macedon*, or Gra.

Bern actually fields a lot of very low level enemies, most noticably Gale's wyvern ambush in the Shrine of Seals chapter. It's cool though as it feels like Bern is throwing literally everything it has at you.

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I do, and that's where My Castle falls down like a house of cards. Especially with regards to the mess hall since you cannot trade away less useful foodstuffs for ones that give more useful boosts. It's annoying how for most of the game, meals are like, "Let me try... dammit, the wrong units got boosted, try again... crud, it happened again, let's go again.... FUCK, I'm out of food". Or worse, the person manning the mess hall is one of the handful of bad chefs in the game, which is gonna be an issue regardless as at least one of your earlier recruits is such a chef. In all routes (even if I disregard Felicia on account of Corrin's gender, there's Setsuna, Rinkah, Hinoka, Arthur, and Reina; at least one of these joins fairly early in the campaign depending on route). And that's not even getting into how the resource you get from your own castle is randomized, meaning if you get daikon, cabbage, peaches or berries (the former two boost resistance and the latter two magic; both of those stats aren't always going to be useful), the mess hall is going to be almost useless. It sucks to want to cook a meal to make something like Conquest chapter 10 easier, but having berries or cabbage in your castle means you can't get much mileage out of it (or ANY in the case of cabbage, as everything in said chapter is physical, thus boosted resistance is useless). Don't get me started on how these, as well as ores, are also used to bribe captures so you don't have to wait to actually use them. Contrast Three Houses, where I can actually factor in food buffs into my strategy. Do I need +4 speed for unit X to hit crucial benchmarks in the next main map? Not a problem, I just need to get some Bullheads. 

Bolded: That's the one where Elbert injures him badly enough that he needs to flee, right? He then proceeds to mobilize the Black Fang in response.

Anyways...

Ross is NOT the best trainee unit in Sacred Stones. I'll grant that his coming early means he doesn't need the Tower of Valni to get up to speed like Amelia and Ewan do, but he doesn't really give anything of note for it, frankly; I see hype for water walking as a Pirate, but that's practically useless, even in the ONE map where it might have proven useful (oh, and said map is on Eirika route). His stats aren't anything special either; after you get him into a real class, he just turns out to be his father, but worse. And if I use the Ocean Seal to make him a Berserker, I get... something that's basically Dozla, who is already pretty lousy, but needed to be raised to get there.

Sounds like a skill issue.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:35 AM, Jotari said:

Sounds like a skill issue.

If we limit it to his opinions on My Castle and ignore the comparison to Three Houses and the Ross hot take then I think that his criticisms are fair.

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

If we limit it to his opinions on My Castle and ignore the comparison to Three Houses and the Ross hot take then I think that his criticisms are fair.

The cristism boils down to "it sucks because it's randomized". To which I say "so? Suck it up, it's a nice bonus, not the central mechanic of the game." If you genuinely can't beat the game because you have a res boosting vegetable instead of a strength boosting vegetable then simply get better at the game.

[samthedigital]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The cristism boils down to "it sucks because it's randomized". To which I say "so? Suck it up, it's a nice bonus, not the central mechanic of the game." If you genuinely can't beat the game because you have a res boosting vegetable instead of a strength boosting vegetable then simply get better at the game.

He didn't mention being unable to beat the game without them unless I missed something in one of his previous posts, but the point is that the randomness makes it more tedious to engage with some of the mechanics. If I want to make use of the bribe mechanic or fully explore crafting then I have to make sure to get a decent yield from the arena, and if I get unlucky the best solution is just to reset and try again. Cooking is just a tool that allows units to reach stat benchmarks, and I do not like having this tied to RNG. It's a little better in Birthright and Revelation because they have access to the Chef's Hat, but Conquest doesn't. I can do without all of this, but it does make the game less complex and therefore makes it a little less interesting for me.

The only positive thing I can say is that it's not that bad. It doesn't dissuade me from playing the games because it doesn't waste my time to nearly the same degree that something like 3H does. That doesn't mean that there isn't any reason to criticize it though.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:12 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Ross is NOT the best trainee unit in Sacred Stones. I'll grant that his coming early means he doesn't need the Tower of Valni to get up to speed like Amelia and Ewan do, but he doesn't really give anything of note for it, frankly; I see hype for water walking as a Pirate, but that's practically useless, even in the ONE map where it might have proven useful (oh, and said map is on Eirika route). His stats aren't anything special either; after you get him into a real class, he just turns out to be his father, but worse. And if I use the Ocean Seal to make him a Berserker, I get... something that's basically Dozla, who is already pretty lousy, but needed to be raised to get there.

Ooh, you've come to the right thread with that take!

So, there's actually three different assertions here:

1. Ross is worse than either Ewan or Amelia;

2. Ross is worse than Garcia; and

3. A trained Ross is roughly equivalent to Dozla.

Now, I'm gonna take them on in reverse order.

Dozla's stats at jointime (level 1 Berserker), and at level 20 look like this:

Spoiler

HP: 43, 59

Str: 16, 25

Skl: 11, 17

Spd: 9, 16

Lck: 4, 9

Def: 11, 16

Res: 6, 10

Con: 16, 16

Now, let's look at Ross at three points: his jointime (level 1 Journeyman), his promotion (10/20/1 Berserker), and his cap (10/20/20 Berserker):

Spoiler

HP: 15, 40, 53

STR: 5, 21, 30

SKL: 2, 12, 19

SPD: 3, 13, 19

LCK: 8, 19, 26

DEF: 3, 13, 17

RES: 0, 7, 11

CON: 8, 13, 13

So, Dozla obviously joins much stronger than an untrained Ross, even relative to the higher threat level of his jointime in either route. But, how about compared to a 20/1 Rosszerker? Dozla has higher HP and Con, whereas Ross wins out in Strength, Speed, and Luck. Skill, Defense, and Res are essentially a wash. Leveled up fully, both sides' advantages respective advantages hold.

Personally, I find Ross' advantages a much bigger deal than Dozla's. Higher Speed is great for doubling more foes, while higher Strength is good for killing blows, especially against foes he can't double. Dozla's higher HP is to his credit, although it's offset somewhat by Ross's slim advantage in defensive stats.

And while Dozla's higher Con may seem to offset Ross' Speed advantage, I'd argue it's not that big a deal. Ross is weighed down by a few Axes (Tomohawk, Brave Axe, Battle Axe), yes, but not others (Swordslayer, Hand Axe, Killer Axe, Garm). Plus, Dozla's higher Con makes him harder to Rescue-Drop: only unpromoted Franz and Forde can pull it off.

That said, the biggest difference is in the Luck stat, where Ross has a tremendous advantage. While often derided as "the least important stat in the game", it's not one that you can afford to have too little of. Dozla is facing Crit constantly, which is a serious liability for a "frontliner"-type unit. He can alleviate this with supports, but even his quickest-growing one, with L'Arachel, will take a couple chapters to get online. Ross, conversely, is only facing Crit from enemies who are bringing some "crit boost" into the equation. It's a clear advantage for our lad from Ide.

As to the "middle point" - that Garcia is better than Ross - I would agree, and so would most longtime players, I imagine. A trained Ross has some advantages over a trained Garcia, sure, but the father starts "halfway there". He's already a competent combat unit, who doesn't need EXP funneled into him. But hey, he won't turn it down either! If you want to use only one of the Axe dudes, and want him to end up in Hero or Warrior, then Garcia is your best pick.

As for the first point, it's hard to really address without a concrete standard. Which other trainee do you think is better than Ross? Ewan, Amelia, or both? And, does what they offer lategame somehow outweigh not only Ross' earlier contributions, and his own mid-to-lategame potential, but also the inheremt challenge of training them in the first place? I'd be curious to hear it!

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, samthedigital said:

He didn't mention being unable to beat the game without them unless I missed something in one of his previous posts, but the point is that the randomness makes it more tedious to engage with some of the mechanics. If I want to make use of the bribe mechanic or fully explore crafting then I have to make sure to get a decent yield from the arena, and if I get unlucky the best solution is just to reset and try again. Cooking is just a tool that allows units to reach stat benchmarks, and I do not like having this tied to RNG. It's a little better in Birthright and Revelation because they have access to the Chef's Hat, but Conquest doesn't. I can do without all of this, but it does make the game less complex and therefore makes it a little less interesting for me.

The only positive thing I can say is that it's not that bad. It doesn't dissuade me from playing the games because it doesn't waste my time to nearly the same degree that something like 3H does. That doesn't mean that there isn't any reason to criticize it though.

I just don't find the resource crunch in Fates to be insurmountable in the slightest and I virtually never use the social media features at all. We have just very different reactions to the game. One where the social features are pushed on the player because the game doesn't balance normally around them, and one where the social features are irrelevant or outright trivialize the game. If someone really feels the former then I think that means they are just genuinely struggling with the game overall if the boosts cooking and the like bring are such game changers.

46 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, you've come to the right thread with that take!

So, there's actually three different assertions here:

1. Ross is worse than either Ewan or Amelia;

2. Ross is worse than Garcia; and

3. A trained Ross is roughly equivalent to Dozla.

Now, I'm gonna take them on in reverse order.

Dozla's stats at jointime (level 1 Berserker), and at level 20 look like this:

  Hide contents

HP: 43, 59

Str: 16, 25

Skl: 11, 17

Spd: 9, 16

Lck: 4, 9

Def: 11, 16

Res: 6, 10

Con: 16, 16

Now, let's look at Ross at three points: his jointime (level 1 Journeyman), his promotion (10/20/1 Berserker), and his cap (10/20/20 Berserker):

  Reveal hidden contents

HP: 15, 40, 53

STR: 5, 21, 30

SKL: 2, 12, 19

SPD: 3, 13, 19

LCK: 8, 19, 26

DEF: 3, 13, 17

RES: 0, 7, 11

CON: 8, 13, 13

So, Dozla obviously joins much stronger than an untrained Ross, even relative to the higher threat level of his jointime in either route. But, how about compared to a 20/1 Rosszerker? Dozla has higher HP and Con, whereas Ross wins out in Strength, Speed, and Luck. Skill, Defense, and Res are essentially a wash. Leveled up fully, both sides' advantages respective advantages hold.

Personally, I find Ross' advantages a much bigger deal than Dozla's. Higher Speed is great for doubling more foes, while higher Strength is good for killing blows, especially against foes he can't double. Dozla's higher HP is to his credit, although it's offset somewhat by Ross's slim advantage in defensive stats.

And while Dozla's higher Con may seem to offset Ross' Speed advantage, I'd argue it's not that big a deal. Ross is weighed down by a few Axes (Tomohawk, Brave Axe, Battle Axe), yes, but not others (Swordslayer, Hand Axe, Killer Axe, Garm). Plus, Dozla's higher Con makes him harder to Rescue-Drop: only unpromoted Franz and Forde can pull it off.

That said, the biggest difference is in the Luck stat, where Ross has a tremendous advantage. While often derided as "the least important stat in the game", it's not one that you can afford to have too little of. Dozla is facing Crit constantly, which is a serious liability for a "frontliner"-type unit. He can alleviate this with supports, but even his quickest-growing one, with L'Arachel, will take a couple chapters to get online. Ross, conversely, is only facing Crit from enemies who are bringing some "crit boost" into the equation. It's a clear advantage for our lad from Ide.

As to the "middle point" - that Garcia is better than Ross - I would agree, and so would most longtime players, I imagine. A trained Ross has some advantages over a trained Garcia, sure, but the father starts "halfway there". He's already a competent combat unit, who doesn't need EXP funneled into him. But hey, he won't turn it down either! If you want to use only one of the Axe dudes, and want him to end up in Hero or Warrior, then Garcia is your best pick.

As for the first point, it's hard to really address without a concrete standard. Which other trainee do you think is better than Ross? Ewan, Amelia, or both? And, does what they offer lategame somehow outweigh not only Ross' earlier contributions, and his own mid-to-lategame potential, but also the inheremt challenge of training them in the first place? I'd be curious to hear it!

Criticisms against Ross aren't necessarily spicy, none of the trainees are considered stellar units without significant babying, but to say he's not the worst trainee kind of begs the question, who is the best trainee? The logic that says Ross is the best no doubt stems from the fact that he joins earlier and when unit slots are in less competition, so the effort to baby him into being good is lesser. I could see an argument that Ewan is the best because, when fully trained he can summon and use staves, which is a greater utility than a pure combat unit can bring to the table. But training any of the trainees is an exercise in patience (though, imo, one that can be a lot of fun).

Edited August 17, 2023 by Jotari

[samthedigital]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I just don't find the resource crunch in Fates to be insurmountable in the slightest and I virtually never use the social media features at all. We have just very different reactions to the game.

It's going to depend on a variety of factors, sure. If you're doing more paralogues, resetting for the +8 from arena, and playing over the course of a longer period of time you're going to have a vastly different experience from someone who's doing the opposite of that.

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If someone really feels the former then I think that means they are just genuinely struggling with the game overall if the boosts cooking and the like bring are such game changers.

The player doesn't necessarily have to be struggling with the game for meals or forges to be a game changer though; having more options might make the game easier, but that doesn't mean that the player is struggling because they don't have access to all of them.

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

It's going to depend on a variety of factors, sure. If you're doing more paralogues, resetting for the +8 from arena, and playing over the course of a longer period of time you're going to have a vastly different experience from someone who's doing the opposite of that.

The player doesn't necessarily have to be struggling with the game for meals or forges to be a game changer though; having more options might make the game easier, but that doesn't mean that the player is struggling because they don't have access to all of them.

If that's the case then the feature very much not being forced on the player.