Ayra Update: Where do you stand?

[Othin]

Ayra outclasses weak units, bringing a unit type that wasn't relevant enough a bit closer to relevance. That's what matters, not whether or not we call it "power creep", and whatever it is, I don't think it's a bad thing.

[MrSmokestack]

17 minutes ago, a bear said:

Going to agree with @Rezzy on her definition of power creep. It's power creep, not power stomp. Ayra firmly establishes a shitty precedent of invalidating an entire class thanks to an optimized stat spread with arbitrary BST and skill lovin' thrown in for good measure. It's all about the new standard, not Ayra herself.

Instead of taking an already well-defined and elaborated term and twisting it, use another one instead which describes a unit being the best of their class instead of being better than the best in general. Don’t care which.

As has been pointed out before, Ayra’s BST bonus makes no difference in the grand scheme of things when her movement and weapon types are already being underused. Optimized stat spreads should be expected and have had precedent going back for months, as has been stated by @Talandar. Uninheritable skills are a bit of a gray area, as Regnal Astra would be a big boon to high Spd low Atk units, but Arden and the Black Knight arguably see more use than Ayra as sword users and no one seemed to bat an eye at their exclusive skills.

Like the new standard or don’t like it. This is how gacha games grow over time and Heroes seems inclined towards following the norm rather than being an exception. We all have to get used it though.

Edited November 7, 2017 by MrSmokestack
Bolded the correct definition of powercreep

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, a bear said:

It's power creep, not power stomp.

A doghouse is a house made of dogs and a bear trap is a bear hanging from the ceiling ready to pounce on an unsuspecting hunter.

You can dissect words and interpret them all you want, but that doesn't make your interpretation correct. "Power creep" has a definition.

[XRay]

10 hours ago, Logos said:

That's the problem I see with your argument. You claim that Reinhardt and Brave Lyn raise the ceiling up because they can nuke things, but why does being able to nuke a lot outshine Ayra being able to outclass nearly all melee swords at close range and run 3 different types of A skills at once, or Arden being able to quad attack nearly everything at close range, and more than likely kill it. Right here even you said if something is not Cavalry, and can't counter or out-nuke Reinhardt they don't push the ceiling up, I find your assessment of power in this game very misleading. There are already counters for every unit, and there are different spectrum of powers in FEH, and in one of them Ayra is raising the limit of it's power. 

Nuking things is very important. Ayra outclasses all sword infantry units because she is a better nuke than all of them. Reinhardt and BH!Lyn are better than Ayra because they can nuke from a distance and have better mobility.

Nuking from a distance is very important due to map layout and obstacles. Melee units are at a huge disadvantage when there are a lot of obstacles on the map since they block melee units from attacking but not range units.

Mobility is also important for manipulating the AI and extending your weapon's range. Being able to manipulate the AI and split their team apart means that their buffs are less effective and you can fight them one or two at a time instead of all four, and cavalry units are much better at doing that than infantry units. Having higher mobility is also important since it means that you can be outside of enemy range in safety while the enemy is inside your attack range.

2 hours ago, BANRYU said:

I'd say you're right in that she's not as influential on the metagame at large as those two are, certainly. However, in regards to her specific niche, red melee units, she definitely, unequivocally IS the ceiling. Assuming resources are not a problem and that you care about winning more than using your favorites, there is no reason to use another sword unit that lacks Falchion or a built-in Distant Counter weapon when you could use Ayra, she hard-outclasses them all pretty soundly. 

The ceiling of sword infantry is so far below the ceiling of the meta game that Ayra pushing the sword infantry ceiling up a little is not very relevant.

It is because resource is not a big problem and I care about winning that there is no reason for me to run Ayra or any melee infantry (besides Dancers/Singers) in the first place. Merges fixes ranged unit's low BST issue so I can comfortably stay in Tier 20 without compromising my team's performance.

20 minutes ago, a bear said:

Going to agree with @Rezzy on her definition of power creep. It's power creep, not power stomp. Ayra firmly establishes a shitty precedent of invalidating an entire class thanks to an optimized stat spread with arbitrary BST and skill lovin' thrown in for good measure. It's all about the new standard, not Ayra herself.

Power creep is a technical term with a specific meaning, you cannot just assign whatever meaning you want to it. For example in business, there is a huge different between a company earning $10 billion in revenue and $10 billion in net profit, you cannot just say your profit is revenue or else the IRS and a whole bunch of regulatory agencies is going to go after you for tax evasion and fraud.

Edited November 7, 2017 by XRay

[BaronKrause]

You don't need to push the entire performance ceiling up to be power creep, just the ceiling of the units whose spots this one would be in competition with.

It doesn't matter that Reinhardt is still technically a better unit, as Ayra was never in competition with him for a spot on the team, even if she outclassed him they wouldn't be in in competition.

When people say they fear power creep, what they are actually fearing is that a new unit will come out and render the one they have obsolete instead of it just being an alternative option. Being told "well, your current red sword units are now obsolete, but hey its still not as strong as Reinhardt" is probably of little consolation to anyone who built up a current red sword unit.

If the goal was simply to let red sword units compete better, the solution would be to raise all the current red sword units stats a bit.

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, BaronKrause said:

You don't need to push the entire performance ceiling up to be power creep, just the ceiling of the units whose spots this one would be in competition with.

Use a different term then. Power creep is not the correct term to describe what you are saying.

2 minutes ago, BaronKrause said:

It doesn't matter that Reinhardt is still technically a better unit, as Ayra was never in competition with him for a spot on the team, even if she outclassed him they wouldn't be in in competition.

It does matter when there are only four slots on a team and there are no restrictions on what you can use.

2 minutes ago, BaronKrause said:

When people say they fear power creep, what they are actually fearing is that a new unit will come out and render the one they have obsolete instead of it just being an alternative option. Being told "well, your current red sword units are now obsolete, but hey its still not as strong as Reinhardt" is probably of little consolation to anyone who built up a current red sword unit.

Half the fun in Heroes comes from building up your favorite characters, which in some cases can also be a challenge, and  pairing them with units that complement their strengths and weaknesses. One unit being better than another unit does not, and should not, stop players from building the units they want.

[DLNarshen]

The people who built up favorites like Navarre, Lon'qu, Laslow, etc did so in an environment where Ryoma existed, and always has.  The overwhelming majority of red sword infantry were, as far as the meta is concerned, obsolete from day 1.  Ayra's inclusion doesn't change that, nor does it make those "obsolete" characters any worse than they already were.  I don't agree with the special treatment Ayra got, but she did not shift the meta in any significant way.

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, BaronKrause said:

It doesn't matter that Reinhardt is still technically a better unit, as Ayra was never in competition with him for a spot on the team, even if she outclassed him they wouldn't be in in competition.

You have four slots on your team with no restriction on any slot. Ayra is in direct competition with Reinhardt for a slot.

Assuming infinite availability, a second Reinhardt, a third Reinhardt, and a fourth Reinhardt are always serious options.

[BaronKrause]

I still think its the correct term as you should only be comparing it with units that fill that specific role. Holding the blue cavalry mage Reinhardt out there as a reason for how she can't be defined as power creep is simply inaccurate unless you're really planning on building a full team of Reinhardts. If all other red sword units were outclassed by her it is power creep, that's the definition, not whether it compared to a completely unrelated unit.

Edited November 7, 2017 by BaronKrause

[Johann]

I'm no longer sure what people are more bent out of shape about; Ayra, or the definition of power creep.

[MrSmokestack]

6 minutes ago, Johann said:

I'm no longer sure what people are more bent out of shape about; Ayra, or the definition of power creep.

This. The discussion isn’t going to move anywhere if we’re arguing over what something means before we can apply it to something important.

[eclipse]

Meh.

The meta isn't going to bend itself over because Ayra was introduced.  From a gameplay standpoint, she's just another unit.

From a marketing standpoint, this is a bit of a mess.  I hope Ayra's introduction isn't a precedent as to how new characters are introduced.

[dragonlordsd]

I don't know if this is really happening, or if it's just me, but ever since the Ayra thing happened, this game has started to feel really stale.

As much as I love Halloween Henry, most of the others just felt... meh.

But what's really troubling is the BHB repeat.

Back when this game started, we got two GHBs a month, and I said back then (you can check the threads) that I felt that was too slow, and we should get one every week.

As I said at the time, the rate of releasing new characters was so slow that it would take more than 8 years to release all of the characters from the poll.

Well, now it's gotten even slower. And not just a little slower. New characters are being released at HALF the rate they were at the beginning.

In October, we only got six new characters (not counting shigure, who wasn't "added for real")

If there isn't a new GHB this month, we'll only get five new characters, maybe even four if they pull another "3 character banner" thing.

There haven't been any new or exciting things going on and that has me worried. 90% of the content now is extremely tedious, whether it's arena assault, or repeating the same GHB/BHB just with a handicap.

Edit:

@Eclipse: I agree, I don't think Ayra had any impact on the meta what so ever (other than pushing out Non-DC swordies).

She's far too easily countered by the existing meta to do anything.

Edited November 7, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, BaronKrause said:

I still think its the correct term as you should only be comparing it with units that fill that specific role. Holding the blue cavalry mage Reinhardt out there as a reason for how she can't be defined as power creep is simply inaccurate unless you're really planning on building a full team of Reinhardts. If all other red sword units were outclassed by her it is power creep, that's the definition, not whether it compared to a completely unrelated unit.

But that is not the definition of power creep, so that is not the right term.

I have a triple Reinhardt defense team. I would have made a fourth Reinhardt if bonus units are not a factor.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, a bear said:

Going to agree with @Rezzy on her definition of power creep. It's power creep, not power stomp. Ayra firmly establishes a shitty precedent of invalidating an entire class thanks to an optimized stat spread with arbitrary BST and skill lovin' thrown in for good measure. It's all about the new standard, not Ayra herself.

Ryoma and Red Ike are still better though so it's not exactly power creep even then. They actually have an inbuilt D.C while with Ayra you have to sacrifice Hector.

[Johann]

Just now, MrSmokestack said:

This. The discussion isn’t going to move anywhere if we’re arguing over what something means before we can apply it to something important.

Well, we could create separate terms to distinguish between the two points people are trying to make.

• Categorical Power Creep: Raising the ceiling within a specific group of units, skills, roles, etc. You would also want to distinguish between different game content (Tempest, GHBs, Arena, etc).
• Total Power Creep: Raising the ceiling within the entirety of the game

There ya go, have fun

 

[Othin]

"Sword infantry units so far are bad, so they should never try to make a half-decent one" is a terrible argument.

Using existing sword infantry was already typically unoptimal. That's not a problem Ayra caused.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Othin

[Ice Dragon]

25 minutes ago, BaronKrause said:

I still think its the correct term as you should only be comparing it with units that fill that specific role.

Why does a role matter? This isn't a game where you need 3 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer in your party.

You can make a viable team even with colors completely absent, meaning units of different colors and "roles" are in direct competition with each other for slots.

 

Heck, what constitutes a role anyways? Why does it matter to compare Ayra to other red melee infantry units? Why not red melee units? Or red infantry units? Or red player-phase units? Or red foot units? Or foot units?

As it looks to me, "red melee infantry units" is the category chosen for the convenience of your argument because Ayra simply doesn't dominate the other categories.

 

5 minutes ago, Johann said:

Well, we could create separate terms to distinguish between the two points people are trying to make.

What's the point when said categories neither are well defined nor matter?

Until the game forces you to use a red melee infantry unit in your team, it doesn't matter that Ayra is better than most of the other red melee infantry units if she is not at the top of the heap overall.

[BANRYU]

4 hours ago, Talandar said:

Eh, I would still argue that Ryoma is ceiling. Ayra with DC may match him (or surpass him since she technically has +5 Spd & +4 Def lead without skills at +Spd/-Res) but he has the edge in terms of flexibility regarding with his A passive.

Also Brave Roy is still the best player-phase sword for now. He has more movement range than Ayra and horse buffs make him match her offense. Both have the similar effects with their weapons, too.

It's certainly debatable but I can definitely see the Ryoma side of things? Although 5 Spd and 4 Def is pretty significant IMO, and arguably her weapon effect is the superior of the two given that Ryoma's can be replicated via skill inheritance, but Ayra's cannot and it's arguably the more powerful of the two in any situation BUT being attacked at range anyway. IDK to me, just the fact that Ayra is so comparable to Ryoma, the I think universally-agreed ceiling of the sword infantry meta-- enough that many consider her superior or would highly consider replacing Ryoma with her-- speaks for itself well enough.

But yeah, as mentioned below there is also Roy to consider here haha. Cavalry movement range will probably always be the deciding factor of meta relevance due to the size of most arena maps in that regard. 

4 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Ayra lacked Horse, so i'd still pick Brave Roy tbh

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If this game had nothing but red melee infantry or if running a red melee infantry in your party were required, this would matter. But this game has more than just red melee infantry, and red melee infantry is not a requirement on any team.

Yeah y'know that's fair. I shoulda specified 'infantry' as well, my bad. 

I guess Ayra is really more defining for player-controlled content than PvP stuff, since the 5-space range of movement + distance attacking is what makes Rein and BLyn so dangerous to deal with in Arena. However, given how much PvE content is in this game that Ayra can (I presume, since I don't have her) probably steamroll despite her lesser attacking range, I'd still consider that significant enough to be called power creep.

Besides, it's not like reshaping the meta is the only indication of power creep; going with Slayer weapons again, it's not like they really changed anything in the meta, they just introduced a stronger alternative to Slaying weapons and kind of invalidated the usefulness of their weaker counterparts for skill inheritance (not entirely, ofc, those can still be relevant to F2P folks naturally but I think we're mainly talking about the whale meta, or so I assume). But that's still power creep, right? So that's what Ayra is to sword infantry. That's how I see it, anyway. It's not influencing major change in the meta, but it is essentially usurping the usefulness of other units, which is still power creep IMO. 

[Shiki]

17 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Although 5 Spd and 4 Def is pretty significant IMO, and arguably her weapon effect is the superior of the two given that Ryoma's can be replicated via skill inheritance, but Ayra's cannot and it's arguably the more powerful of the two in any situation BUT being attacked at range anyway.

Stat's alone don't matter that much, especially since this is a Ryoma without his A passive.
Fury will lessen the difference quite a bit (and give Ryoma a +4 Atk over Ayra) or Life and Death puts them at the same Spd while Ryoma trades Def for a significant Atk lead.
The only thing that makes a difference is that weapon effect but even that can be replicated by using Steady Breath. Sure, he will be quite a bit slower but will have the same endurance and can potentially fire the Special off during the counter. That is arguably better.
Ryoma is just far more flexible because of his free choice in the A passive. Ayra needs to take DC to match him and surpassing him in close range doesn't accomplish anything in comparision.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Talandar

[Ice Dragon]

45 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

It's certainly debatable but I can definitely see the Ryoma side of things? Although 5 Spd and 4 Def is pretty significant IMO, and arguably her weapon effect is the superior of the two given that Ryoma's can be replicated via skill inheritance, but Ayra's cannot and it's arguably the more powerful of the two in any situation BUT being attacked at range anyway. IDK to me, just the fact that Ayra is so comparable to Ryoma, the I think universally-agreed ceiling of the sword infantry meta-- enough that many consider her superior or would highly consider replacing Ryoma with her-- speaks for itself well enough.

Actually, in terms of the Distant Counter build, Ike has better HP, Atk, and Def than either Ayra or Ryoma, giving him the edge when running Steady Breath at the cost of a worse player phase.

The thing about Ayra, Ryoma, and Ike is that they're basically side-grades of each other. Ayra has the best player phase of the three. Ryoma and Ike have better enemy phases due to having Distant Counter on their weapons, giving them more flexibility with their A slot with Ryoma having a better player phase than Ike and Ike having a better enemy phase than Ryoma. In particular, Steady Breath allows either of them to run Dragon Fang as a special skill, which far out-performs Regnal Astra on a Distant Counter enemy-phase build.

[a bear]

@MrSmokestack @Ice Dragon @XRay  Power creep is new options outclassing old ones. That's the objective definition. I honestly have no idea how you guys are coming to the conclusion that it has to break the ceiling in all categories. That's not a requirement, never has been. And we say it's a creep because it's a gradual process; it's about raising the standard over time. Ayra is just one of many. Saying "oh, well she doesn't replace everyone" or "she's infantry sword so whatever" or "still not as good as Reinhardt" doesn't mean she isn't a case of power creep, it just means she's not dominant in today's meta. It's like saying Fates isn't art because its writing isn't good.

Anyway, she's just the representation of the direction this game is heading. A lot of people just aren't happy with arbitrary buffs on select new units. I don't care about Ayra in either FE4 or FEH, so her being the figurehead of all of it is whatever to me.

[Johann]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

What's the point when said categories neither are well defined nor matter?

Until the game forces you to use a red melee infantry unit in your team, it doesn't matter that Ayra is better than most of the other red melee infantry units if she is not at the top of the heap overall.

Not my problem, I'm not here complaining about what constitutes as power creep. I also don't give a shit about any of the characters being discussed. After all, "better" is subjective, impermanent, and kinda arbitrary when you could potentially beat anything with just about any character/group.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, a bear said:

Power creep is new options outclassing old ones. That's the objective definition.

Find @XRay's post a few pages back with links to both of Extra Credits's videos on what is and isn't power creep or search for the videos yourself and watch them (season 4 ep. 2 and season 11 ep. 8). I would trust their definition over any other suggested here or elsewhere.

If you can't be bothered to watch them (because I actually re-watched them as a primer), then go somewhere else and complain to a more ignorant or sympathetic crowd that will just agree with you and carry on. And really, this is directed at everyone. Go fucking watch those videos.

 

1 minute ago, Johann said:

Not my problem, I'm not here complaining about what constitutes as power creep. I also don't give a shit about any of the characters being discussed. After all, "better" is subjective, impermanent, and kinda arbitrary when you could potentially beat anything with just about any character/group.

Then exactly what was the point of posting?

You don't walk into Congress during whatever the hell they do there (still convinced they don't do anything, but that's not the point), stand on the podium, suggest that everyone get along, and leave. And then you say "not my problem" when security apprehends you.

[Rezzy]

3 hours ago, Johann said:

Well, we could create separate terms to distinguish between the two points people are trying to make.

• Categorical Power Creep: Raising the ceiling within a specific group of units, skills, roles, etc. You would also want to distinguish between different game content (Tempest, GHBs, Arena, etc).
• Total Power Creep: Raising the ceiling within the entirety of the game

There ya go, have fun

 

I support your idea.  I've been gaming for close to thirty years and the definition means different things to different people in the several different fandoms to different games over the years.  I forget when I first heard the term, but the idea, I've been debating with people as far back as the 90s, in games like D&D.

Definitions are created by consensus, and no one here is Merriam Webster with dogmatic authority of what the absolute definition of power creep is, so I'm going to just agree to disagree with people here, since my research into the definition elsewhere has given different criteria with no absolute consistency.

 

EDIT: I've watched and researched the Extra Credit videos, and was actually one who posted one.  I believe Ayra fits by that definition, because the curve is not the absolute ceiling.  Some units are below, some are above.  But we are again getting into definitions there.  Once people begin swearing at each other, I'm backing out, since the debate is no longer productive.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Rezzy