General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[bottlegnomes]

@JSND Alter Dragon Boner I'm pretty sure the stat boost is considered two full effects for power's sake. IIRC, it's equivalent to brazen atk/spd 2 + brazen def/res 2, limiting it to 2 instead of 3 because of the HP threshold being very lenient. Dragon slaying is a free effect. So 2/3 (brazen 2) + 2/3 (brazen 2) + 2/3 (HP threshold + 20%) = 3. I'm almost absolutely certain they didn't go that far with the math, rather just eye-balled its power, but it kinda works out.

[Garlyle]

Saber, Bartre, Shanna and Florina gets new toys. Man, who should I promote, they are still 4*?

Edited November 2, 2018 by Garlyle

[redlight]

Quite curious that no Rex Hasta. Guess it's being saved for Marcus

I hope Bartre doesn't get a bond refine. Most likely a slaying + armor effective weapon

Shanna I could see getting a dual ploy

Florina is up in the air

Saber will likely get a built-in solar brace

[Hilda]

no saizo refine yet. I is sad. Seriously IS get on with the unique dagger refines!!! its the class that needs the modt help. All blue lance flyers basicly got a refine... (ecxept for Cordi, Shigure and Est).

Bartre is kinda out of the blue but cool. Hop his refine works well withhis brash assault. In before he can run QR Vantage Brash assault. all at the same time XD

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hilda

[Vince777]

I'm going to make a second post about this but I feel these new names sap all value there is to actual legendary weapons in the lore that make it into the game. There it is, "Shanna's Lance" of equal value to Siegmund, Gae Bolg & Vidofnir. 

Is there really nothing else they could have used?

[Stroud]

18 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Bartre is kinda out of the blue but cool. Hop his refine works well withhis brash assault. In before he can run QR Vantage Brash assault. all at the same time XD

I am hyped for Bartre. In that Case I think Sturdy blow would be a way to go? It would also help Speed Bartre builds.

I have one in my friendlist with a Strong Florina. Can't wait to see how better she will be that flying wendy. 

[bottlegnomes]

The head of Shanna's lance looks like the wing sword, but I feel like I'm reading a bit too much into that. It'd seem a bit odd for them to completely invent a new personal weapon that has an identical effect to an existing one of the same type. I don't think they've done that so far.

Anyone else think it'd be hilarious if they gave Saber a 14 mt DC sword that debuffefed enemies after combat?

@Vince777 I'm with you, but I gave up on that a while ago. It's tricky to pick a name that's suiting while not the equally lazy {in-game character descriptor + weapon type} approach, and I guess with the regularity they're pumping them out, they just said screw it in some cases.

Edited November 2, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Diovani Bressan]

In Eches, one of the Golden Dagger skills is "Plenitude", which "Restores HP equal to damage dealt to enemy". Maybe the Golden Dagger could have the "Solar Brace" effect, which is "Restores HP = 30% of damage dealt when Special triggers".

Although, it will probably be a 16Mt Slaying Edge with Wo Dao Effect or Life and Death, like the others swords we got.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Diovani Bressan

[Fabulously Olivier]

Once again disappointed that none of my big three (Hawkeye, Robin, Lukas) or even one of my runner ups (Saizo, Barst, Lyon, Frederick, Virion, and pretty much every staff unit) have gotten their weapon refinery update. (Seriously, how has Robin, the literal definition of an outdated character, not gotten a prf weapon yet)?

 

But, regardless, all four of these characters needed it, and I'm happy for their fans. That's 4 characters closer to finally getting what I want.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Etheus

[colossus86]

@Vince777

There have been cases were weapons have better names in japanese but localization screws them up, Camilla's Axe being an example.

As for how I feel about this batch:

Bartre is our "didn't really need this but okay" entry for this batch. Unfortunate some others got passed over but what can you do.

Saber is our "retroactively justify this unit being 5 star" and I'm very curious what they'll try to do with him since in the past overly non-minmaxed statlines tend to get turned into supports (see marth & corrin)

As for Florina, her statline is an abomination so she needs the attention. I'd imagine something like a slaying heavy spear with duel ploy refine.

Shanna isn't in such bad shape but still could use a but of extra offense to keep up with Cordy/Shigure

[Fabulously Olivier]

15 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

@Vince777

There have been cases were weapons have better names in japanese but localization screws them up, Camilla's Axe being an example.

As for how I feel about this batch:

Bartre is our "didn't really need this but okay" entry for this batch. Unfortunate some others got passed over but what can you do.

Saber is our "retroactively justify this unit being 5 star" and I'm very curious what they'll try to do with him since in the past overly non-minmaxed statlines tend to get turned into supports (see marth & corrin)

As for Florina, her statline is an abomination so she needs the attention. I'd imagine something like a slaying heavy spear with duel ploy refine.

Shanna isn't in such bad shape but still could use a but of extra offense to keep up with Cordy/Shigure

Bartre is Tier 6, by the Gamepress tier list. I don't know if there is a more credible list than that one, but that speaks to a need for him to get a boost.

[colossus86]

12 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Bartre is Tier 6, by the Gamepress tier list. I don't know if there is a more credible list than that one, but that speaks to a need for him to get a boost.

Ignoring my personal issues with Gamepress, Bartre is one of the few old units that actually has a well optimized statline and can provide alot of value as arena assault filler, and his high HP makes him the premiere infantry pulse user in the game in addition to being a very good panic ploy user. He's not perfect but he's in way better shape than many other launch era units who are basically pointless in comparison to other obtainable options in their role (see Laslow, Florina, and Cain)

[redlight]

3 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Bartre is Tier 6, by the Gamepress tier list. I don't know if there is a more credible list than that one, but that speaks to a need for him to get a boost.

Gamepress uses vanilla units as enemies without enemies getting buffs and that's really there's all to it unless I missed something from their article they released a while back. Gamepedia collects defense team data from tier 19.5 score range as to who is popular at the moment as well as their most common boons and builds, has buff rules that are taken from defense team encounter details, has rules for skill activations such as chills and owltomes, has enemies at higher merges to stress test. There's a lot of thought put into their stuff really. Right now because of dragon prevelance Bartre is rated below Brave Ike because shit res and spd, but Brave Ike has basically the same match-up results as Arthur and Bartre. I'd use Yugioh as an example. There are several archetypes (cards bearing similar names and effects/playstyle) that might be considered okay or even good, but you're not testing your deck against them. You're testing it against meta decks.

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

Ignoring my personal issues with Gamepress, Bartre is one of the few old units that actually has a well optimized statline and can provide alot of value as arena assault filler, and his high HP makes him the premiere infantry pulse user in the game in addition to being a very good panic ploy user. He's not perfect but he's in way better shape than many other launch era units who are basically pointless in comparison to other obtainable options in their role (see Laslow, Florina, and Cain)

Well, yes, but the same also applies to Chrom, and he isn't seen as a particularly stellar unit, despite having two prf weapons. I don't see the harm in giving Bartre a prf.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Etheus

[Fabulously Olivier]

10 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Right now because of dragon prevelance Bartre is rated below Brave Ike because shit res and spd, but Brave Ike has basically the same match-up results as Arthur and Bartre. 

I find that strange because Brave Ike is hot garbage against dragons. Especially if you're using the Shield Pulse build like I do, even a blue dragon like Nowi will tear Brave Ike a new asshole.

 

Also, that is a crying shame, as Gamepedia's site format is terrible, laggy, clunky, and has a tendency to pull me to outside websites without my consent. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Etheus

[colossus86]

 @Etheus

@silveraura25

As someone who uses B!Ike in their arena core most of the value comes from the ability to tank +10 Reinhardt, Nino, and B!Lyn with ease while also not killing them in retaliation. And in my range (tier 19.5 can stay in 20 occasionally if its fire season) I still see those alot. Also id imagine B!Ike being rated higher than Bartre has more to do with scoring potential. B!Ike has a prf B skill, Legendary Weapon and a bst lead on Bartre so he simply scores better.

Also my B!Ike has never had that much of an issue with merged up Nowi. Although I'm not running -res so maybe that has something to do with it.

Edited November 2, 2018 by colossus86

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, colossus86 said:

 @Etheus

@silveraura25

As someone who uses B!Ike in their arena core most of the value comes from the ability to tank +10 Reinhardt, Nino, and B!Lyn with ease while also not killing them in retaliation. And in my range (tier 19.5 can stay in 20 occasionally if its fire season) I still see those alot. Also id imagine B!Ike being rated higher than Bartre has more to do with scoring potential. B!Ike has a prf B skill, Legendary Weapon and a bst lead on Bartre so he simply scores better.

Also my B!Ike has never had that much of an issue with merged up Nowi. Although I'm not running -res so maybe that has something to do with it.

I run a +def, -spd Brave Ike. 

[colossus86]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

I run a +def, -spd Brave Ike. 

Its the -spd that might be the problem (I run neutral btw) Nowi's speed is the most annoying thing ever since I've seen +10s with as low as 33-34 spd and as high as 38-39 unbuffed

[redlight]

23 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I find that strange because Brave Ike is hot garbage against dragons. Especially if you're using the Shield Pulse build like I do, even a blue dragon like Nowi will tear Brave Ike a new asshole.

 

Also, that is a crying shame, as Gamepedia's site format is terrible, laggy, clunky, and has a tendency to pull me to outside websites without my consent. 

I dunno how much, but his win percentage is higher than Bartre's enough to warrant him a higher spot. I will agree the UI for Gamepress is much better, but there's a whole lot put into Gamepedia's tiering. Fortunately enough they make huge ass posts on reddit whenever they do a major update

 

16 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

 @Etheus

@silveraura25

As someone who uses B!Ike in their arena core most of the value comes from the ability to tank +10 Reinhardt, Nino, and B!Lyn with ease while also not killing them in retaliation. And in my range (tier 19.5 can stay in 20 occasionally if its fire season) I still see those alot. Also id imagine B!Ike being rated higher than Bartre has more to do with scoring potential. B!Ike has a prf B skill, Legendary Weapon and a bst lead on Bartre so he simply scores better.

Also my B!Ike has never had that much of an issue with merged up Nowi. Although I'm not running -res so maybe that has something to do with it.

The tierlist itself is based on killing foes without making too many investment with your other units like Dance or everyone using rallies on one unit. They have a different tierlist for scoring. Ike's prf is hot garbage as well as his exclusive b slot skill. Above average greens will have a good time against blues so I wouldn't be too surpsised about him having okayish results with Nowi

[colossus86]

@silveraura25 Borec's blessing is garbage but I'll go to the matt for Urvan. Not only does it allow you to tank crazy damage from ranged brave and firesweep threats it also has great applications on player phase for when you need to soften someone up without dying from attacking them.

Also i thought you were referring to gampress the whole time not gamepedia my bad.

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Ike's prf is hot garbage

It's not optimal, but it's certainly not garbage. It's basically just a Slaying Axe+ that trades its refine for anti-Reinhardt measures, making it a decent substitute for Slaying Axe+ if you're on a budget.

[Corrobin]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's not optimal, but it's certainly not garbage. It's basically just a Slaying Axe+ that trades its refine for anti-Reinhardt measures, making it a decent substitute for Slaying Axe+ if you're on a budget.

Not "Anti-Reinhardt", anti-Brave/Desperation. I pulled a +Def -Res Brave Ike, and once, he managed to tank Elincia.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Corrobin said:

Not "Anti-Reinhardt", anti-Brave/Desperation. I pulled a +Def -Res Brave Ike, and once, he managed to tank Elincia.

He has no trouble tanking most physical blue units with or without Deflect All, so it's pretty much just Reinhardt, green tomes, and maybe some stray Brave Axes. Add pretty much all other blue tomes if he's not running Distant Counter.

Being able to tank at disadvantage doesn't matter too much in the Arena even if it's convenient since that's a job that should really just be left to teammates to handle.

[bottlegnomes]

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's not optimal, but it's certainly not garbage. It's basically just a Slaying Axe+ that trades its refine for anti-Reinhardt measures, making it a decent substitute for Slaying Axe+ if you're on a budget.

It's kinda sad that Urvan, a weapon that made a lot of people lose their shit when it was released, is now considered worse than a refined slaying axe.

Shanna makes me wonder if Catria will be getting a refinement anytime soon. They're pretty similar overall, basically just swapping def and res.

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

It's kinda sad that Urvan, a weapon that made a lot of people lose their shit when it was released, is now considered worse than a refined slaying axe.

That more just says to how good the refined Slaying weapons are. The second effect on an exclusive weapon with the Killer weapon effect has a high bar to compare to since the "second effect" on Slaying Axe+ [Def] is effectively +5 HP, -2 Atk, and +4 Def.