General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

The killer effect really isn't good for Ike, is my biggest problem with it. (You need to run his hypothetical unique Prf + Quickened Pulse or something for it to be useful). So if they do give Ragnell a killer they need to make it slightly overpowered so that Vanguard gets as much out of it as Mercenary.

 

I'm more fine with a generic +3, Killer, DC, on Ryoma, but he's gen 1, meaning he'll want a bit more stats out of it than Vanguard. (The fact that his flying version also has Rajinto makes this troublesome, though.)

Again, you're entirely missing the point of the discussion. The point is to make a comparison between Saber and Ike and Ryoma to see if Distant Counter weapons can be made balanced with a refine, not to make an optimal refine for Ragnell and Raijinto.

The fact that you argue that both Ike and Ryoma need more than just the Killer weapon effect to match Saber actually just reinforces my point.

 

7 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

(The fact that his flying version also has Rajinto makes this troublesome, though.)

Legendary Ryoma only has +3 Spd over regular Ryoma. That's literally the only difference.

He's good, but it's because of Bushido + Slaying Edge / Wo Dao / Firesweep Sword, not Raijinto.

 

4 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Unless the refinery is wrong, it does. Just double-checked.

Gamepedia says no HP bonus, but I can also confirm that in-game it shows having +3 HP. And I'll trust the game more.

[Xenovia]

Poison Dagger should get a forge option, since the malougi weapons have 11(?) mt and have type-effectiveness, so Poison Dagger should be bumped up to that as well.  Also, I would like for Kagero to get a prf weapon, although Lethal Carrot/Flashing Blade SS/Desperation/Glimmer works so well I might not even use the refine.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Xenovia said:

Poison Dagger should get a forge option, since the malougi weapons have 11(?) mt and have type-effectiveness, so Poison Dagger should be bumped up to that as well.

The problem is that infantry are currently already the game's weakest movement type and also make up half of the game's current roster.

[Diovani Bressan]

I can see Kagero receiving a exclusive weapon, which is a better Poison Dagger with a special refinement. Maybe something like Felicia''s Plate refinement, but with infantry foes: "If foe is a infantry unit, grants Special cooldown charge +1".

[ILikeKirbys]

@DefyingFates I could see Lyon getting Guard 6 to hopefully protect him from enemy Specials, ATK/DEF or DEF/RES Solo 3 for stats when he’s alone, Distant Spectrum 2 (like Florina’s Lance, but for ranged enemies) to make him better at blocking ranged enemies, or something like “When Special is ready at start of combat, grants DEF/RES +4 during combat and allows unit to counterattack regardless of distance” to give him a Golden Dagger-style refinement that leans toward defending since Lyon is more tilted toward Enemy Phase (though it would probably require sacking a Lewyn and putting him on a team with multiple Infantry Pulses to get the most out of this on Lyon, since he can’t do the Slaying+Shield Pulse+Aegis combo that Saber can and thus probably needs to run Special Spiral+Moonbow/Glimmer to keep it up, with the Infantry Pulses helping get Lyon down to 0 CD before his first combat). Any of those would probably work fairly well for him, I think.

@bottlegnomes That’s a good point. Brave Hector was gonna be super good anyway because he’s Hector and IntSys has yet to make a bad version of him, so they might have used Brave Hector as a trial run for how effective Distant Counter+Other Stuff could be. Now I’m interested in whether we’ll get refinements for a DC weapon user or two when 3.0 drops (guessing at least one of Xander, Fjorm and Ike)...

[DefyingFates]

10 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

I could see Lyon getting Guard 6 to hopefully protect him from enemy Specials

At first I thought this would be underwhelming, then realised Guard 6 would trigger as long as he was above 40% HP which...sounds pretty reliable even with him getting doubled by almost everyone else in the game. The inbuilt CC sounds good too, save for the reliance on Lewyn...maybe he could get an inbuilt Special Spiral instead..?

[Diovani Bressan]

12 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

 

@bottlegnomes That’s a good point. Brave Hector was gonna be super good anyway because he’s Hector and IntSys has yet to make a bad version of him, so they might have used Brave Hector as a trial run for how effective Distant Counter+Other Stuff could be. Now I’m interested in whether we’ll get refinements for a DC weapon user or two when 3.0 drops (guessing at least one of Xander, Fjorm and Ike)...

The good part about refinement for DC weapons is  if Ike and Ryoma get a refinement for Ragnell and Raijinto, the Legendary Ike and Legendary Ryoma will receive it too.

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

or something like “When Special is ready at start of combat, grants DEF/RES +4 during combat and allows unit to counterattack regardless of distance” to give him a Golden Dagger-style refinement that leans toward defending since Lyon is more tilted toward Enemy Phase (though it would probably require sacking a Lewyn and putting him on a team with multiple Infantry Pulses to get the most out of this on Lyon, since he can’t do the Slaying+Shield Pulse+Aegis combo that Saber can and thus probably needs to run Special Spiral+Moonbow/Glimmer to keep it up, with the Infantry Pulses helping get Lyon down to 0 CD before his first combat).

You just explained why this effect would be absolutely terrible for him. It works for Saber because not only does he have access to skills that trivialize activating the effect, he even starts with one of them in his default kit.

Lyon only has access to Special Spiral and can't even use it well because the skills necessary to start a map with his Special charged are rare and aren't in his default kit.

 

1 minute ago, DefyingFates said:

At first I thought this would be underwhelming, then realised Guard 6 would trigger as long as he was above 40% HP which...sounds pretty reliable even with him getting doubled by almost everyone else in the game.

Guard 6 is 50% because Guard 1 is 100%.

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

I'm more fine with a generic +3, Killer, DC, on Ryoma, but he's gen 1, meaning he'll want a bit more stats out of it than Vanguard. (The fact that his flying version also has Rajinto makes this troublesome, though.)

I wouldnt  consider his flying version more powerfull then ground Ryoma, especially when ground Ryoma has access to skills like Steady Breath, Flashing Blade, Wrath (still better then Leg Ryomas B-skill) and now Null Follow up. the only Big difference is really just movement (and Emblem spurs, emblem buffs can be kinda emulated via Tactics skills).

If anything a Raijinto refine opens up more potential for ground Ryoma due to the skills he can pick. (Unless its a bond skill then Flying Ryoma wins due to Aerobatics/Flier formation)

In any case i think DC refines are comeing prolly beginning next year or with book 3 maybe? Leg. Tiki and Saber have shown they are willing to dable with DC weapons refines.

[DefyingFates]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Guard 6 is 50% because Guard 1 is 100%.

My bad, thanks! (And @ILikeKirbys' picking 6 instead of 5 makes more sense now as well :P)

[ILikeKirbys]

@Ice Dragon To be honest, I wasn't sure about the Golden Dagger-type requirement for that one. Do you think it would work better if it was active as long as Lyon has 90% HP or more, like refined Seigmund's guaranteed follow-up attack at 90+% HP?

@DefyingFates Haha, I used to make that mistake too!

@Hilda Wait, how does Legendary Tiki show that? Saber I see, but Tiki's weapon isn't a refinement at all.

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

To be honest, I wasn't sure about the Golden Dagger-type requirement for that one. Do you think it would work better if it was active as long as Lyon has 90% HP or more, like refined Seigmund's guaranteed follow-up attack at 90+% HP?

That would then force him to pretty much run Renewal + Quick Riposte if you want to let him keep the effect active for more than one round of combat.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, but could feel a bit restrictive for making builds.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[RexBolt]

22 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

 

@Hilda Wait, how does Legendary Tiki show that? Saber I see, but Tiki's weapon isn't a refinement at all.

She's a unit with DC weapon with added effects. There are 3 other Legendary Heroes with 2 of them having their weapon being just the same base DC effect as their regular selfs.

Also i'm pretty sure she's the first unit overall to have both DC and another power on her pfr weapon in the game.

[Ice Dragon]

17 minutes ago, RexBolt said:

She's a unit with DC weapon with added effects. There are 3 other Legendary Heroes with 2 of them having their weapon being just the same base DC effect as their regular selfs.

Also i'm pretty sure she's the first unit overall to have both DC and another power on her pfr weapon in the game.

Divine Mist only has Distant Counter, dragon-effective damage, and adaptive damage against ranged opponents, the latter two of which are considered free effects, leaving it with only one non-free effect.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[RexBolt]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Divine Mist only has Distant Counter, dragon-effective damage, and adaptive damage against ranged opponents, the latter two of which are considered free effects.

It's still something beyond just DC (i'm also not counting the adaptative damage, just the dragon-killer one). Also, who even decided what effects are "free" or not? I don't really see the logic behind it since some weapons have such complicated wacky powers while others are an amalgamation of ones found in inheritable weapons.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

10 minutes ago, RexBolt said:

It's still something beyond just DC (i'm also not counting the adaptative damage, just the dragon-killer one). Also, who even decided what effects are "free" or not? I don't really see the logic behind it since some weapons have such complicated wacky powers while others are an amalgamation of ones found in inheritable weapons.

IS. 

 

Theres a consistent trend with Slaying effects where they are for all intent and purpose free. Look at Falchion with Renewal and Dslayer, or Binding Blade post refinement. Vast majority of weapon actually have at most 2 "points" of effect

[ILikeKirbys]

@JSND Alter Dragon Boner You mean effective damage? I think they do consider Slaying an effect, whereas I think effective damage only seems to count if you get it against multiple unit types (like Wing Sword’s Cavalry & Armored effectiveness).

@Ice Dragon That’s true, it is a bit restrictive... though you could run a healer to possibly free up Lyon’s B Slot if you wanted.

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

whereas I think effective damage only seems to count if you get it against multiple unit types (like Wing Sword’s Cavalry & Armored effectiveness).

Thani says otherwise, having armor-effective damage, cavalry-effective damage, Resistance +3, and 30% damage reduction from the first hit from a ranged armor or cavalry unit.

[YotsuMaboroshi]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Thani says otherwise, having armor-effective damage, cavalry-effective damage, Resistance +3, and 30% damage reduction from the first hit from a ranged armor or cavalry unit.

Also Dawn Suzu, with armor effective, cavalry effective, Attack +3 and Hardy Bearing.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Also Dawn Suzu, with armor effective, cavalry effective, Attack +3 and Hardy Bearing.

Okay, maybe Micaiah just cheats.

 

EDIT: Warrior Princess also has armor-effective damage, flier-effective damage, Speed +3, and Drive Atk 2.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[ILikeKirbys]

@Ice Dragon That's true (alternatively, Micaiah and Hinoka are both cheating). I guess Caeda and Clair just got the short end of the stick, huh?

[colossus86]

45 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Ice Dragon That's true (alternatively, Micaiah and Hinoka are both cheating). I guess Caeda and Clair just got the short end of the stick, huh?

I never really considered Hinoka as cheating since eff flyers is free for all bows so it doesn't use up the "free slot" all weapons can have. It's the same logic as L!Tiki's weapon: you can have 2 free effects if 1 is just inherent to your weapon type.

Thani is cheating but one of it's effects is a stat boost and the other is very situational so w/e

[DehNutCase]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Again, you're entirely missing the point of the discussion. The point is to make a comparison between Saber and Ike and Ryoma to see if Distant Counter weapons can be made balanced with a refine, not to make an optimal refine for Ragnell and Raijinto.

The fact that you argue that both Ike and Ryoma need more than just the Killer weapon effect to match Saber actually just reinforces my point.

?

Saber has conditional +3 all stats & DC on top of killer, of course it'd be stronger than DC + Killer when conditions are met. That said, the conditions usually cost 1 or 2 skill-slots, so it should be a real trade most of the time. (We can always simulate it as someone running Infantry Pulse or something, so you lose, say, 4def/4res from a Distant Guard that could've been in that C-slot, which should end up very comparable.)

 

It's also kind of weird that you talk about killer effect like it's something Vanguard Ike cares a lot about. If killer refine was what Ragnell gave he's going to take one of the stat options instead---which is a good sign the Prf refine was terribly designed. (Vanguard has 4CD Radiant Aether and Breath in his base kit. Mind, he can move away from those, but making it so his skill-set is a giant mismatch shouldn't be the goal of skill design.)

I gave Ragnell stats + Killer because Mercenary, the weaker unit, would like both the stats and killer, whereas Vanguard doesn't care very much about the killer (he cares a little, but not a lot), but just as much about the stats, meaning they end up in similar places despite being slightly different units at the start who were given the same upgrade.

 

Back to the DC prf refines being fair thing, though. I'll agree that DC + Killer is perfectly fair on a DC Prf unit that doesn't use killer at all. Which Vanguard basically is. We also didn't need to see Saber to know that, so the fact that he has Golden Dagger is pretty irrelevant for Vanguard Ike, except for the +3 conditional all stats thing, which is what he's really interested in. (But you seem unwilling to give him.)

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Legendary Ryoma only has +3 Spd over regular Ryoma. That's literally the only difference.

He's good, but it's because of Bushido + Slaying Edge / Wo Dao / Firesweep Sword, not Raijinto.

Legendary Ryoma has +4 speed, Bushido, Flying mobility. That's not only. And just because Rajinto isn't optimal on him doesn't mean it's a good idea to buff the weapon as if only infantry Ryoma mattered. (Lucina's 34/36, by the way, Infantry Ryoma is 34/35.)

Unless you've done a U-turn on the viability of DC Slaying Wrath Ayra recently---which Flying Ryoma can easily mirror with Killer Rajinto, Bushido, Moonbow, Stat A-slot---I don't think the idea is to make it so that infantry Ryoma never sees the light of day. Flying Ryoma trades the 'sustain' of Wrath (I still don't think melee 2 move player phase is where it's at---unless you run Galeforce, I'm willing to pay a lot for Galeforce) for a bit more consistent first round combat---vs. people that plink him and if he ever engages on mages and such. 

 

The biggest problem here, though, isn't that Flying Ryoma has that set, it's that Flying Ryoma has practically every set infantry Ryoma does, except he runs it better most of the time.

4 hours ago, Hilda said:

I wouldnt  consider his flying version more powerfull then ground Ryoma, especially when ground Ryoma has access to skills like Steady Breath, Flashing Blade, Wrath (still better then Leg Ryomas B-skill) and now Null Follow up. the only Big difference is really just movement (and Emblem spurs, emblem buffs can be kinda emulated via Tactics skills).

If anything a Raijinto refine opens up more potential for ground Ryoma due to the skills he can pick. (Unless its a bond skill then Flying Ryoma wins due to Aerobatics/Flier formation)

In any case i think DC refines are comeing prolly beginning next year or with book 3 maybe? Leg. Tiki and Saber have shown they are willing to dable with DC weapons refines.

First, flying is a huge advantage over ground movement. You always pay skill slots for class locked skills, but you get your base mobility for free. Second, tactics is still weaker than Class buffs, they're just as hard or harder to plan for from a team-building perspective (after you take into consideration the fact they're weaker), and they're randomly terrible in game-modes involving more than 4 units. Aether Raids, RD, GC, etc. 

 

Regarding 'potential,' I agree that infantry Ryoma would get more out of any Rajinto refine than Flying Ryoma. The problem is, I'd also agree that Olwen gets out of any Dire Thunder Refine than Reinhardt---but it take some really strange upgrade for infantry Ryoma or Olwen to become comparable afterwards. The problem with scaling better is that if you didn't start in similar places the guy with better bases has a pretty good shot of being better forever.

Like, give +5 spd to Dire Thunder, Olwen benefits way more, since her gameplan involves doubling people with Dire Thunder if you didn't switch to -blade, but Reinhardt still nabs a few free doubles against the dumber armors who take -spd and randomly fails to get doubled sometimes.

 

Similarly for Infantry vs. Flying Ryoma. If Rajinto is strong to the point where infantry catches up, flying can mirror the set almost perfectly and stay ahead. If Rajinto is weak to the point it's just a 2nd tier option compared to flying's other options, then infantry doesn't catch up.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Saber has conditional +3 all stats & DC on top of killer, of course it'd be stronger than DC + Killer when conditions are met.

You're seeing the +3 to all stats as inseparable from the weapon when, in fact, +3 to all stats from the weapon is functionally equivalent to +3 to all base stats.

Furthermore, you're still trying to think of this discussion as "finding a refine to give to Ragnell and Raijinto" instead of "seeing how Golden Dagger's refine enables refine options for Distant Counter weapons".

You keep going back to "Ike wants this effect" or "Ike doesn't want this effect" when they are not relevant. What is relevant is "Golden Dagger being a Distant Counter Slaying Edge on a unit with comparable stats to Ike and Ryoma gives a case study for whether or not Distant Counter weapons with additional effects are balanced".

 

10 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind, he can move away from those, but making it so his skill-set is a giant mismatch shouldn't be the goal of skill design.

Tell me why Levn has Special Spiral in his base kit instead of Null Follow-Up or why Ophelia has Sturdy Blow and Chill Res instead of Life and Death and Special Spiral, then.

From a build optimization perspective (i.e. "what a character wants"), a character is no more than a movement type, weapon type, set of stats, and set of available skills. The fact that Ike has Radiant Aether and Warding Breath by default means nothing for optimization if he does better with a different set of skills. It just means he has a solid base kit for players without access to many resources.

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're seeing the +3 to all stats as inseparable from the weapon when, in fact, +3 to all stats from the weapon is functionally equivalent to +3 to all base stats.

Furthermore, you're still trying to think of this discussion as "finding a refine to give to Ragnell and Raijinto" instead of "seeing how Golden Dagger's refine enables refine options for Distant Counter weapons".

You keep going back to "Ike wants this effect" or "Ike doesn't want this effect" when they are not relevant. What is relevant is "Golden Dagger being a Distant Counter Slaying Edge on a unit with comparable stats to Ike and Ryoma gives a case study for whether or not Distant Counter weapons with additional effects are balanced".

It's inseparable from the weapon because its conditional on the special being ready at start of combat. Yato would be the better bet for your argument, since it's a flat +2 all stats.

The devs already know the killer effect isn't worth a lot of BST (slaying weapons exist, rather than just killers---a naive estimate would say they think the killer effect is worth 2-3 Atk, from looking at Slaying's 14 MT versus Silver's 16 MT), and they gave Saber 12, three of which are Atk. If they didn't give saber 170 BST when the conditions are met, I'd agree with you, but they're testing how hard they can push bonuses based on conditions more than Slaying + DC on saber, considering most DC Prf users are first generation---i.e. 12 BST below saber when Golden Dagger's conditions are met.

 

If all they wanted to test was DC + Killer then they could've straight up given it to him---because his spread is pretty similar to Mercenary Ike's without any changes.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Tell me why Levn has Special Spiral in his base kit instead of Null Follow-Up or why Ophelia has Sturdy Blow and Chill Res instead of Life and Death and Special Spiral, then.

From a build optimization perspective (i.e. "what a character wants"), a character is no more than a movement type, weapon type, set of stats, and set of available skills. The fact that Ike has Radiant Aether and Warding Breath by default means nothing for optimization if he does better with a different set of skills. It just means he has a solid base kit for players without access to many resources.

Why would Lewyn even want Null Follow-up? G-Tomebreaker and Wary Fighter are not my idea of top B-slots to counter---unless you're actually expecting him to survive the first hit from a Bold Fighter armor. Special Spiral is 'alright' across the board, which is an okay place to be if you think Lewyn has good enough combat that he's only worried about people that are trying to specifically hard counter him.

 

Ophelia's Study Blow isn't optimal, but the fundamental rule of doubling people is: You need to survive the counter attack to double them. (This is why Reinhardt is good with breakers, obviously, since he almost always survives to land the second hit. But it's also why he's good without breakers, since he hits them twice before being countered.) Ophelia is trying to be 'barely' there with her bulk, 38/20/23 isn't great, but 38/24/23 is about the same as -Res Cordelia, and I run Cordelia into melees all the time. It's weird, since she's  specializing to fight dragons and armors (who have low speed but dangerous counters), but not that weird. You can even argue that it's so she doesn't get Vantage OHKOd randomly, due to her AoE triggering Vantage. Chill Res is honestly not even bad---since she's specializing into killing slow units she's expecting to fight through a lot of res, and also expecting to double them.

 

Regarding the Ike thing---for power gamers a character is no more than move, weapon type, stat spread, and available skills, but IS shouldn't design units only based on that, since there are people who care about what a unit feels like to them. Axe!Ike isn't very good, but he feels a lot like Ike, because he Aethers people in the face back to full hp as his game plan. With that in mind, it's better to just release a new unit to do whatever weird ass refine on Ragnell was going to do than to deliberately mess with Ike's kit, since you can always just find a more synergistic refine for Ike later, if you can't think of one now.

I think the proper name for this is Vorthos if you've played MTG---people who care about the lore behind a care more than what a card does, functionally speaking. It's also a little bit of Timmy, of course---Aethering people back to full hp as a game plan isn't exactly a great game plan, but it's fun in the same way that slamming a bunch of 12/12 tramplers or whatever is fun.

 

The biggest thing, though, is that you don't have to choose between strong and flavorful. You can usually get both. e.x. Go all in and give Ragnell double killer (-2 cd), Vanguard Aethers people every hit, Mercenary gets just enough that he Aethers instead of going to max charge if he had some way to double. The effect is amazing for PvE and such, of course, but PvP most people should still kill Ike without problems.

Edited November 20, 2018 by DehNutCase