General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Oof, ok then.

Here’s a thought: Wary Fighter 3.

Preventing yourself from performing a follow-up seems counterproductive to having Fierce Stance.

[ILikeKirbys]

@Azure the Scale Tipper Wary Fighter wouldn't be all that great on Hinata either, since he wouldn't be able to use Quick Riposte to do his own follow-up attacks. Maybe Hinata would do better with a Great Flame-type follow-up-denial effect?

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

13 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Azure the Scale Tipper Wary Fighter wouldn't be all that great on Hinata either, since he wouldn't be able to use Quick Riposte to do his own follow-up attacks. Maybe Hinata would do better with a Great Flame-type follow-up-denial effect?

Yeah, we can do that.

[bottlegnomes]

@Azure the Scale Tipper Everyone else has already covered my thoughts for the most part. I will say if you are going to give him the Great Flame effect, you'd probably want to give him Sturdy Stance instead since it's only a 2 might drop in exchange for +4 defense which equates to potentially a lot fewer doubles. Another option is go player-phase and give him H!Myrrh's effect.

 

 

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

@ILikeKirbys @bottlegnomes @Ice Dragon So, what do you guys think of the Garon refine? Will post a new batch consisting of red tome units after some notes have been given.

Also, I think the Hinata refine can be like this now:

-Hinata: Hinata’s Katana:

16 might

Default: Sturdy Stance 2

Refine: If unit’s Def >= foe’s Def +5, foe cannot make a follow-up attack.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

So, what do you guys think of the Garon refine?

Breath of Blight is already a Gen 2 weapon.

Furthermore, "every four turns" is already roughly equivalent to "on the fourth turn" considering most maps will be completed or at least significantly depopulated before the eighth turn.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Breath of Blight is already a Gen 2 weapon.

Furthermore, "every four turns" is already roughly equivalent to "on the fourth turn" considering most maps will be completed or at least significantly depopulated before the eighth turn.

So, no need?

[bottlegnomes]

48 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

So, no need?

Yeah, it's fine as is. Not every weapon has to be super strong. I'd say focus on gen 1 weapons and completely new ones.

Another one I'm a bit surprised hasn't come up yet is one that negates in-combat buffs like bonds and the stance and strike skills. For why nothing along those lines hs been implemented, I'm not sure if that's because they think it'd get tricky to mentally manage or if it's because it'd be difficult to implement. I'm really curious how much information is exposed during combat. Part of me leans toward the usability reason since if they thought they would be good and get people's attention I'd imagine they'd invest the effort to get it working.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Another one I'm a bit surprised hasn't come up yet is one that negates in-combat buffs like bonds and the stance and strike skills.

My best guess for the reasoning to this is the fact that in-combat buffs always have a condition on them and aren't active for out-of-combat calculations. Field buffs also have extremely high synergy with skills like Litrblade, and there is no comparable skill that is quite so over-the-top for in-combat buffs.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

Ok, Garon gets no refine.

Been mulling over whether or not Soleil and Roderick should have refines, as their base weapons are Firesweep weapons. Same for Aversa, Gharnef, and Fallen Takumi, even though they are good (worst part of them is that they are situational at best, especially in today’s meta).

I’d also like to point out that Cherche has a refinable brave weapon, like what we tried with Elincia.

Anyways, @bottlegnomes @ILikeKirbys @Ice Dragon , time for a new batch.

Spoiler

-Arvis: [Refined] Valflame:

14 might

Default: (Same as before)

Refine: Swift Stance 2

-Julius: [Refined] Loptous:

14 might

Default: (Same as before)

Refine: Null C-Disrupt 3

-Raigh: Apocalypse:

14 might

Default: Effective against dragons. Owl Tome effect.

Refine: Disables foe’s skills that “calculate damage using lower of foe’s Def or Res”.

-Sophia: Prophet’s Tome:

14 might

Default: Raven Tome effect

Refine: Guard (>= 50%)

 

[bottlegnomes]

@Azure the Scale Tipper The issue wasn't refinable brave weapons. It was that Amiti is already a gen 2 weapon and a very powerful one on a good unit.

For the new ones, Arvis's doesn't really fit the lore, Julius already has a gen 2 weapon, but the refine seems fitting, Raigh's seems fine, but would require CC to be fully optimal, and Sophia would far prefer and owl tome. Raven tomes have fallen by the wayside other than in modes where you can counter pick.

@Ice Dragon True. Thinking about it more, it also seems like it might end up favoring the AI a bit. Not a ton, but that it wouldn't be hugely beneficial to the player. Seems like a player is much more likely to take the time to setup combat buffs only to have the AI run in and negate them than the opposite. There are some exceptions like armors ans maybe dragons I suppose, but based on Lynhardt/blade tome meta, that's the impression I got.

Edited January 24, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[ILikeKirbys]

@bottlegnomes I don't see being a gen 2 weapon as rendering a future refinement entirely out of the question, since you could just remove the stat boost from the refined version.

@Azure the Scale Tipper I can see Roderick getting a refinement. Soleil too, though personally I feel she's good enough without one (especially now that she can run Null Counter-Disrupt to get around the primary problem of Firesweep Sword+ preventing her from counterattacking, something Roderick can't do).

As for the current refineset:

Quote

-Julius: [Refined] Loptous:

14 might

Default: (Same as before)

Refine: Null C-Disrupt 3

Julius is someone I don't think needs a refine (he's a pretty alright tank against mages who lack Dragon-effectiveness, thanks to his superhigh RES and inflicting -6 ATK on his foes during combat), but I wouldn't mind if he got one because I like him. This refine would be pretty good for him, too.

-Raigh: Apocalypse:

14 might

Default: Effective against dragons. Owl Tome effect.

Refine: Disables foe’s skills that “calculate damage using lower of foe’s Def or Res”.

I like the Owl-effect, might be able to make something of his subpar statline, and Dragon-effectiveness is something I would expect Apocalypse to have. Regarding the Refine, however, I feel like it needs something more. Maybe just give him full Mystic Boost instead of just the first third of it? Outside of that, it's good.

-Sophia: Prophet’s Tome:

14 might

Default: Raven Tome effect

Refine: Guard (>= 50%)

Guard 6 would be nice on Sophia, though I question why you gave her a Raven tome when Lyon already does that better on this color.

And since you made me think of how this could go:

Takumi - Empty Vessel
Skadi [Refine] | Effective vs. Flying. At the start of Turn 3, deals 10 damage to foes within 3 columns centered on unit, and converts bonuses on those foes into penalties through their next actions.
Skill-Refine: Grants DEF/RES +4 to unit and inflicts Special Charge -1 on foe during combat initiated by foe.

And because I just thought of it:

Nowi - Eternal Youth
Eternal Breath | MT 16 | Unit can counterattack regardless of foe's distance.
Skill-Refine: At start of Odd numbered turns, grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

@bottlegnomes @Ice Dragon @ILikeKirbys

Okay, let’s try this again.

Spoiler

-Arvis: [Refined] Valflame:

14 might

Default: (Same as before)

Refine: Dull Ranged 3

-Julius’s Refine is good as is.

-Raigh: Apocalypse:

14 might

Default: Adds total bonuses on unit to damage dealt.

Refine: Chill Res 3

-Sophia: Prophet’s Tome:

14 might

Default: Owl effect

Refine: Guard 6 (>=50%)

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper
Revised Raigh’s weapon.

[Ice Dragon]

@Azure the Scale Tipper

One thing about Apocalypse is that lore-wise, it is meant to stack raw damage. I personally envision the weapon simply being a carbon copy of Forblaze, possibly with an even stronger Atk boost to compensate for Raigh's lower Atk stat, or using Raudhrblade as its base effect.

Furthermore, none of the Eight Divine Weapons of Elibe have gotten dragon-effective damage thus far, and I don't imagine that's going to change.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

@Azure the Scale Tipper

One thing about Apocalypse is that lore-wise, it is meant to stack raw damage. I personally envision the weapon simply being a carbon copy of Forblaze, possibly with an even stronger Atk boost to compensate for Raigh's lower Atk stat, or using Raudhrblade as its base effect.

Furthermore, none of the Eight Divine Weapons of Elibe have gotten dragon-effective damage thus far, and I don't imagine that's going to change.

Fixed Raigh. What do you think of the others? By that, I mean the other refines I made?

Edited January 24, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper
Clarification.

[Troykv]

7 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Fixed Raigh. What do you think of the others?

He's talking about Forblaze, Armads, Durandal, Mulagir and Maltet.

So far the only Elibe Weapon with Dragon-Effective damage is Binding Blade.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

@Troykv Edited that post you quoted.

[bottlegnomes]

@ILikeKirbys You're probably right. It's not entirely out, but I'd be surprised if they got to it anytime soon.

@Azure the Scale Tipper Arvis's new refine needs better wording and seems like it'd be an incredibly niche skill if I'm following. IIRC, in-combat buffs already affect in-combat skills, for example DB3/4 and HB. So basically the only thing this would affect is his ability to ploy, which he's plenty good at already. 33 res isn't low and with Recovery Ring, there's virtually no reason to not run Fury for the extra boost.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

@bottlegnomes What would you recommend, then?

[bottlegnomes]

In-game, Valflame gives +10 to atk/def/res. The ploys basically simulate that by making him deal more damage to and take less from enemies he hits. Arvis himself has in his first appearance Adept (class skill) and Nihil (personal). In his second appearance, he has Pavise (class), Nihil, and Charm (?), a +10 boost to hit and avoid for all allies within 3 spaces. Nihil could equate to a dull or guard. Or you could make him full support and have charm replicated by some sort of ally buff.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

4 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

In-game, Valflame gives +10 to atk/def/res. The ploys basically simulate that by making him deal more damage to and take less from enemies he hits. Arvis himself has in his first appearance Adept (class skill) and Nihil (personal). In his second appearance, he has Pavise (class), Nihil, and Charm (?), a +10 boost to hit and avoid for all allies within 3 spaces. Nihil could equate to a dull or guard. Or you could make him full support and have charm replicated by some sort of ally buff.

Edited Arvis’s refine to Dull Range 3. Is that enough?

[Diovani Bressan]

11 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

In-game, Valflame gives +10 to atk/def/res. The ploys basically simulate that by making him deal more damage to and take less from enemies he hits. Arvis himself has in his first appearance Adept (class skill) and Nihil (personal). In his second appearance, he has Pavise (class), Nihil, and Charm (?), a +10 boost to hit and avoid for all allies within 3 spaces. Nihil could equate to a dull or guard. Or you could make him full support and have charm replicated by some sort of ally buff.

10 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Edited Arvis’s refine to Dull Range 3. Is that enough?

First, change the main effect from Atk/Res Ploy 2 to Atk/Res Ploy 3.

Since the thing of Arvis is to abuse of ploys and recover HP every single turn (thanks to Recovery Ring), he could have something that mimic the Adept effect, which is  "allows user to perform a consecutive attack".  Arvis could have something like:

"If unit HP=100% and foe has a penalty inflicted by a skill like Panic or Threaten, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack."

Pavise is hard to do, because it's already a Special Skill in FEH. He could have something like Leo, that "reduces the first attack damage by 30%".

Nihil would be Guard or a Dull skill, like mentioned before. It could also be Null Follow-Up if HP>50%, the Lv 2 version of the skill.

Charm... It could be a Drive Skill, but I wouldn't be that good on him.

EDIT: Arvis could also have the same refinement that OG Ephraim has: "If unit initiates combat and unit's HP ≥ 90%, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack." This could mimic the Adept effect... Kinda...

Edited January 25, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[bottlegnomes]

@Diovani Bressan For a really broken take on adept, I was thinking something like a combo of Forseti, unit's attack are in sequence above a certain threshold, and something like H!Myrrh's weapon, just res based. That way, Fury could buff his attack and make it easier to double, and life ring would keep the primary skill active. It seemed like it might've been a bit OP though, especially with the fortress res seal. Probably have to drop the debuffs though, and well, outside of capitalizing on memeing adept, it didn't make a lot of sense.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

First, change the main effect from Atk/Res Ploy 2 to Atk/Res Ploy 3.

Since the thing of Arvis is to abuse of ploys and recover HP every single turn (thanks to Recovery Ring), he could have something that mimic the Adept effect, which is  "allows user to perform a consecutive attack".  Arvis could have something like:

"If unit HP=100% and foe has a penalty inflicted by a skill like Panic or Threaten, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack."

Pavise is hard to do, because it's already a Special Skill in FEH. He could have something like Leo, that "reduces the first attack damage by 30%".

Nihil would be Guard or a Dull skill, like mentioned before. It could also be Null Follow-Up if HP>50%, the Lv 2 version of the skill.

Charm... It could be a Drive Skill, but I wouldn't be that good on him.

EDIT: Arvis could also have the same refinement that OG Ephraim has: "If unit initiates combat and unit's HP ≥ 90%, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack." This could mimic the Adept effect... Kinda...

The only reason Arvis can even have a refine is because his tome is Atk/Res Ploy 2, which is one skill. Upgrading that to Atk/Res Ploy 3 would make it Attack Ploy 3 and Res Ploy 3. That is two full skills, and thus a full gen 2 weapon.

 

At best, upgrading it to two full ploys would let him have a free effective damage effect added on.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

@Etheus I’ll use your advice, then.

-Arvis: [Refined] Valflame:

14 might

Default: Atk Ploy 3/Res Ploy 3

Refine: Dull Ranged 3

@ILikeKirbys @Ice Dragon @bottlegnomes What do you guys think of the newest refines for Raigh and Sophia?