The Worst Designed Map In The Series

[Re: The weirdo.]

@MagicCanonBalls all of what you said is fair, but still does not convince me to like them more, which is also fair. i feel no particular need to articulate my thoughts particularly longwindedly regarding the fe4 characters, as i prefer well written to likeable, and the way i perceived them, most of fates cast was VERY trope heavy, and that is something i find tedious to like, again, personally. to be honest, it makes me a little mad that you think that fe4's story is unmemorable, but thats not a big deal either way. not much to say.

bye

[DragonFlames]

I think Fates as a whole has some very strong contenders for worst maps. Every gimmick map, for example Fuga's Wild Ride, Ninja Hell 1, 2 and 3, Kitsune Hell, the entirety of Revelation etc. etc. etc., can shove it one way or another.
I agree that the worst sin a game can commit is being boring, but making a player consider not touching the game again after five chapters of pure frustration and agony (*coughConquestcough*) is the second worst thing, in my opinion at least.

A personal least favourite of mine - and badly designed because if you lose, it's possible that it isn't even your fault - is the map where you recruit Nino and Jaffar in FE7 (I can never remember the name).
Any map with retarded/suicidal green counts, really. Especially that one Paralogue in Awakening where those damned villagers run straight for the enemy, same situation in Sophie's Paralogue in Fates. Why IS thinks that shit is a good idea is beyond me, but hey, those are the same people who sacrificed what could have been a good story for a multi-Mary Sue wank fest, so what the hell was I expecting, really?

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's exactly what I meant when I made the thread.  Dandelion, the map in the OP, isn't a bad map to play. In fact, it's even somewhat fun getting new items and seeing a thief promote to a dancer. But it is a badly designed map because it basically doesn't exist as a map.  The ice map is similar. Chapter 24x and Ryoma's ninja spam, as ridiculously obnoxious as they are, at least still exist and require effort to play (although the fact that killing Ryoma is far easier than actually disabling the traps and he has a chance of suddenly killing you with astra once the traps are disabled is pretty shit)

 

11 hours ago, Slumber said:

Then I'd have to think about the criteria here.

As bad as 12x can be in some areas, and as bad as 24x is with the Warp tiles, they're engaging maps.

FE1, FE2 and Awakening don't get this caveat as a whole. These are three games that give no real attempt to engage you in the maps. Which is why, as much as I actually do like SoV, I'd give the nod to... Any of the swamp maps in that game. Outside of the final map, none of them are engaging in the slightest. And they exist purposefully to slow you down, and there's nothing to do in those maps besides rout the enemies, which the game actively hinders you in doing. 

Being engaging is one thing, but I draw the line at being over-reliant on BS to make it such. And that is where Thracia falls flat on its ass. @DragonFlames brought up something I can't help but agree with - being overloaded with frustrating levels that would make one consider not ever touching a game again (or even quitting without finishing) is also a very grave sin, in my book.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Zkitty8]

I haven't played chapter 24x of Thracia 776, but chapter 16B has a similar problem with warp tiles. It's an escape map with mostly forest tiles so you have to go very slowly, and then the warp tiles can just send you back to the beginning! And if you get warped back to the start you will have already beaten most of the enemies along the way so it's not really a challenge, it's just boring having to go through the forest again. At least you can get a second pugi.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Zkitty8 said:

I haven't played chapter 24x of Thracia 776, but chapter 16B has a similar problem with warp tiles. It's an escape map with mostly forest tiles so you have to go very slowly, and then the warp tiles can just send you back to the beginning! And if you get warped back to the start you will have already beaten most of the enemies along the way so it's not really a challenge, it's just boring having to go through the forest again. At least you can get a second pugi.

Imagine that except if you hit a warp tile your units are sent to a prison cell that you need a warp, rescue or rewarp stave to get out. It's also an escape map so if you leave them there, they're gone (while if you leave them in 16B, you actually can get them back later). It's also fog of war (because that's always fun, especially in Thracia where you can't see the terrain) and features mages that combo an attack that poisons you and an attack that reduces you to 1hp, when they're not just hitting super hard from magic boosting tiles.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Jotari

[MagicCanonBalls]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

A personal least favourite of mine - and badly designed because if you lose, it's possible that it isn't even your fault - is the map where you recruit Nino and Jaffar in FE7 (I can never remember the name).
Any map with retarded/suicidal green counts, really. Especially that one Paralogue in Awakening where those damned villagers run straight for the enemy, same situation in Sophie's Paralogue in Fates. Why IS thinks that shit is a good idea is beyond me, but hey, those are the same people who sacrificed what could have been a good story for a multi-Mary Sue wank fest, so what the hell was I expecting, really?

This reminds me of Radiant Dawn Part 3. Elincia suicide into bow unit, hawk laguz tried to fight bow boss in that bridge map and worst of all block my path. I don't really have problem with Geoffrey's Charge since the allies can't really kill most of the enemy units. So I think the lesson here is: Green units are always bad idea.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

This reminds me of Radiant Dawn Part 3. Elincia suicide into bow unit, hawk laguz tried to fight bow boss in that bridge map and worst of all block my path. I don't really have problem with Geoffrey's Charge since the allies can't really kill most of the enemy units. So I think the lesson here is: Green units are always bad idea.

Thracia has one chapter where green units appear that attack you and the enemy. It's actually pretty cool. The only time the series has ever legitimately done a three way battle, that I can recall.

[The Roger The Paladin]

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

What's the worst deigned map in the series? If you'd played Thracia 776, then your mind would probably jump to Chapter 24x, aka the one with the trap tiles and endless Dark Mages that attack you from the Shadows. While that chapter is probably the most frustrating to play in the entire series, I don't think it's the worst designed. I think this one is.

Looks pretty innocuous, right. If you've never played it, you might think it's just obtuse with how long it would take to trek to the throne. But that's not what's poorly designed about this chapter, what's badly designed is the fact that the player is completely encouraged not to play it. It's the most warp skippable chapter in the entire series. age players to warp skip so they could be prepared for some of the later maps...Which if that's the case it's actually genius and one of the best designed maps in the game.

I'd like to put some contention to the most warp skippable map in the entire series. There's a certain chapter in the very first game that I'd say is more warp skippable. After all, how many people have taken advantage of the fact that when Medeus is defeated, his entire army surrenders to one round warp skip the whole damn final chapter? The fact that they had to change the chapter in Book 1 of Mystery of the Emblem to require the throne to be seized to end it is a testament to the fact the developers saw it for the cheap method it was.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Mad-manakete said:

I'd like to put some contention to the most warp skippable map in the entire series. There's a certain chapter in the very first game that I'd say is more warp skippable. After all, how many people have taken advantage of the fact that when Medeus is defeated, his entire army surrenders to one round warp skip the whole damn final chapter? The fact that they had to change the chapter in Book 1 of Mystery of the Emblem to require the throne to be seized to end it is a testament to the fact the developers saw it for the cheap method it was.

I do think the final map of the first game is badly designed in how much it encourages a warp skip (I find the doors and splitting your army plays a bigger part than the game ending when Medeus is dead though), but players will still play it legitimately for the sake of playing it legitimately as they aren't actively punished for doing so. Try to play Dandelion legitimately and you will miss out on one of the most useful items in the game, as well as having to contend with fog of war and a high likely hood of killing one playable character.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Jotari

[UNLEASH IT]

I find the chapter before dandelion to be worse to be honest. You don't even get a restore staff until Linoan joins so Salem can basically render 3 of your units completely useless for the rest of the chapter.

[Kruggov]

38 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

I find the chapter before dandelion to be worse to be honest. You don't even get a restore staff until Linoan joins so Salem can basically render 3 of your units completely useless for the rest of the chapter.

Well, that IS a problem, but it's the only one here, and Mareeta can easily capture him on about turn 2-3 then sit on a gate for the rest of the chapter. It's FAR from the worst chapter in the game.

IMO there's no more dickish chapter in the entire Thracia 776 than 22. Because it's basically "Warpskip or DIE HORRIBLY".

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Well, that IS a problem, but it's the only one here, and Mareeta can easily capture him on about turn 2-3 then sit on a gate for the rest of the chapter. It's FAR from the worst chapter in the game.

IMO there's no more dickish chapter in the entire Thracia 776 than 22. Because it's basically "Warpskip or DIE HORRIBLY".

There are other ways to get around it by using siege tomes to make Cyas flee and put Reinhardt to sleep.

[Slumber]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

being overloaded with frustrating levels that would make one consider not ever touching a game again (or even quitting without finishing) is also a very grave sin, in my book.

It's like you're doing this on purpose, so you probably know what I'll say to this:

You words might mean something if you actually ever touched the game in the first place. The BS in Thracia when it comes to map designs/decisions, outside of the Warp Tiles, I generally find no worse than the BS you would find in the Fates games or in RD.

@Jotari's points with 12x, for example, are valid. However, some of the main things he's commenting on are also optional. I've played FE5 God knows how many times, and I've never bothered with the optional items that spawn late in the chapter. I actually didn't even know there was a Knight's Crest(The game hands them out like candy), and while I knew of the Warp Staff, it generally isn't needed, despite how OP Warp Staves are. You'll have more than enough by the time Warp Staves really start to shine. The Dancer items seem more like things along the lines of "Hey, if you really want it, you can do these specific things to get these things".

And as for Tina... I actually don't remember her actually using Thief all that often. I would say, however, using Sleep and Silence on her making her unrecruitable is definite BS. It's a logical conclusion, but the game decided to be realistic for some reason and decided that Silenced and Sleeping units are unable to talk.

I can't say I've ever had any of the thoughts he's had about chapter 12x when discussing its design flaws. I generally only think about that last thing I mentioned.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Slumber

[DragonFlames]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Being engaging is one thing, but I draw the line at being over-reliant on BS to make it such. And that is where Thracia falls flat on its ass. @DragonFlames brought up something I can't help but agree with - being overloaded with frustrating levels that would make one consider not ever touching a game again (or even quitting without finishing) is also a very grave sin, in my book.

Exactly.

It's not Fire Emblem, but one game that almost made me quit because of stuff like that is Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey Redux. The dungeon design in that game is nothing if not atrocious and I considered quitting the game many times because of it. And now that I've finished it, I don't exactly feel like replaying it.

I didn't play Thracia yet, so I'll withhold judging the game on that front. I saw a few parts of Mekkah's LP of it and I liked a few mechanics that game had like dismounting and capturing. The latter, sadly, got absolutely butchered in Fates.
Though I could really do without the missing heals and the constant Fog of War where it doesn't even make any semblance of sense.

4 hours ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

This reminds me of Radiant Dawn Part 3. Elincia suicide into bow unit, hawk laguz tried to fight bow boss in that bridge map and worst of all block my path. I don't really have problem with Geoffrey's Charge since the allies can't really kill most of the enemy units. So I think the lesson here is: Green units are always bad idea.

Oh gods, don't remind me. At least in the Geoffrey maps you can direct your allies to stay out of enemy range (or purposely direct them into it as distractions while you approach the boss).

[X-Naut]

Games I've played:

FE4- Chapter 2's horrendous midway backtracking and the Nordion knights put it ahead of the Spirit Forest.
FE5- I've never played Chapter 16B but it looks like a horrendous mess. Otherwise, beyond Chapter 24x there's 4x for its opening segment.
FE6- I'll take a desert of fog of war over Chapter 16x's light arrow hazards and siege tome spam any day.
FE7- Chapter 19H for combining fog, a ton of terrain, highly mobile and spread-out enemies and an annoying boss in Uhai.
FE8- Chapter 11 Ephraim should have been a survive map.
FE11- Chapter 13 is dumb as bricks, ballisticians alone do not a good or exciting map make. Chapter 2 gets a dishonorable mention for being the worst early H5 map.
FE12- Most of the Prologue maps don't feel like maps, or fun or even interesting for that matter... but of the main game, Chapter 9's mage corps and 20 Speed dracoknights plus recruiting Etzel gave me the most headaches.

[ping]

• FE6: I don't like most of the gaiden chapters, since their gimmicks seem to be either irrelevant (like 8x) or annoying (like the luckily warpskipable 21x. But honestly, chapter 24 is a horrible final chapter. No variety, hardly a challenge, the boss is a total scrub... While I still think that it's fitting for Idoun to be a weak boss, the game really would have needed a strong penultimate boss to give a better contrast.
• FE7: Battle preparations. Total snoozefest. Seriously though, Jerme's map. I really dislike snow/rain as a mechanic in general and Jerme's Pale Flower makes it especially annoying. Kenneth's map at least has relatively short paths to the inside and then you're practically done with the reduced movement.
• FE8: Eirika's chapter 12. Just move forward on a linear path towards the boss, then get annoyed that it's a rout map, so you have to kill the reinforcements that spawn at your starting locations and every monster that hides in the mountains.
• FE9: Probably the bridge. I generally like PoR's map design, though. It's the enemy design that drags the game down (although you could argue that this is just part of the map design).
• FE10: Geoffrey's charge. Part 2 in general is rather weak, with the exception of 2-E (although you have to force yourself to not Haar-skip it).
• FE11: I agree with @X-Naut on the ballistae chapter.
• FE12: Chapter 3. :/ The only nice thing about it is the free XP in form of the dracoknights that you can lure to your starting position one by one. Oh, and that Palla joins your team. But the circular movement in order to have Julian to recruit Mathis is just pure tedium.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

It's like you're doing this on purpose, so you probably know what I'll say to this:

You words might mean something if you actually ever touched the game in the first place. The BS in Thracia when it comes to map designs/decisions, outside of the Warp Tiles, I generally find no worse than the BS you would find in the Fates games or in RD.

...and why in the seven hells would I waste my time playing a game I've made it perfectly obvious I hate with every fiber of my being??

[Von Ithipathachai]

34 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

...and why in the seven hells would I waste my time playing a game I've made it perfectly obvious I hate with every fiber of my being??

Why would you waste your time bellyaching over it further if it's so obvious?  Everyone who reads your posts knows you hate the Jugdral games with a burning passion.  In fact, it seems like every time you open your mouth here it's to complain about how terrible the Jugdral games and/or Axe-wielding infantry are.  (But admittedly more of the latter.)

Edited July 7, 2018 by Von Ithipathachai

[X-Naut]

34 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

...and why in the seven hells would I waste my time playing a game I've made it perfectly obvious I hate with every fiber of my being??

Two people talk about a game: one has played it, the other hasn't. Who am I going to listen to first?

[ChibiToastExplosion]

1 minute ago, X-Naut said:

Two people talk about a game: one has played it, the other hasn't. Who am I going to listen to first?

I want to second this. I lurk a lot, and I think the negativity from Levant is a bit much and it's obvious he doesn't even like FE.

Thracia is one of my favorite games, let alone FE game, and the general consensus most have over Thracia is this: you may never grow to like it, but once you play it you realize that the common things that people gripe about (heals missing, etc) are actually almost a non-issue and the game is nowhere near as scary as it's made out it be. It's not even the hardest FE, despite the claim that it is.

Anyway, to be on topic (sort of) I just wanted to say they definitely fixed the Finale from Shadow Dragon in Book 1, because that endgame chapter in Book 1 is still one of the most thrilling FE experiences I have had over the entire series. I agree with the OP, as a person who really avoids warpskipping because I think it's not fun and stupid, that chapter just BEGS for it, and it is not one I've ever had the pleasure of playing - only skipping.

My worst map personally, I hate to say, is the Idoun Finale. I loved Jahn's exposition climb, but I thought even if she could have gotten one rounded, there would have been an expansive final battle where she just keeps spawning mooks over and over and you'd be forced to fight through dozens of dragons just to get to her. At least.

[DisobeyedCargo]

13 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Two people talk about a game: one has played it, the other hasn't. Who am I going to listen to first?

I'm thirding this 

 

as for the topic, Milas temple in SOV

 

the arcanists have Mire so lots of damage, are on tiles and such so massive avoid, and res among your party is generally on the low side, so it's a tedious process dealing with those stupid arcanists,by far my least favorite map 

Edited July 7, 2018 by DisobeyedCargo

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Exactly.

It's not Fire Emblem, but one game that almost made me quit because of stuff like that is Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey Redux. The dungeon design in that game is nothing if not atrocious and I considered quitting the game many times because of it. And now that I've finished it, I don't exactly feel like replaying it.

I didn't play Thracia yet, so I'll withhold judging the game on that front. I saw a few parts of Mekkah's LP of it and I liked a few mechanics that game had like dismounting and capturing. The latter, sadly, got absolutely butchered in Fates.
Though I could really do without the missing heals and the constant Fog of War where it doesn't even make any semblance of sense.

In my case, it's not necessarily the map design that convinces me Thracia isn't worth playing - it's the mechanics. Especially the fact that healing staves can miss, which is an automatic dealbreaker and nothing short of atrocious and inexcusable game design.

Anyways... worst designed map out of the games I've played is Shadow Dragon chapter 13 hands down. Ballistae making up nearly all the enemy forces = No fun. Especially when you can't even attack one without setting yourself up to get sniped by several others.

[SavageVolug]

18 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Two people talk about a game: one has played it, the other hasn't. Who am I going to listen to first?

Very valid point in my opinion, I am fourthing this. One would not be take seriously if they were to critique a book or movie that they had not read or watched respectively. Why should this be any differant?

[Interdimensional Observer]

I don't see why Geoffrey's Charge is attracting so much dislike. Pick 2-1 or 2-2 if you want a really meh Part 2 battle.

And none of these are the worse RD has. 4-3: Distortions is much worse I'd say. It's a flat 100% desert rout map with reinforcements everywhere. Yes you have Naesala (who has no 1-2 range), Sigrun (who is fairly weak), probably Tanith and Nealuchi (also weak), also Haar and or Jill if you had the foresight, and the BK show up. But Geoffrey's Charge isn't difficult either outside of a little hairiness right in front of the door to the boss. And 4-3 will certainly take much longer, owing to the sands in part, also owing to all the wonderful treasures you want to obtain from the sands, plus Stefan and his Vague Katti- that takes time to get, on top of being a rout. Geoffrey's Charge had some creativity to it, Distortions has none, neither does any of all the Part 4 routs really.

Part 1 is the tightest in map design for RD. Part 2 has some nuisances, but the battle scenarios are largely creative. Part 3 is less creative as it goes on, but is still good, with much less nuisances than Part 2. Part 4 is the nadir of RD map design pre-Tower, and even in the Tower is poor. That is how I see it.

 

4 hours ago, ping said:

FE10: Geoffrey's charge. Part 2 in general is rather weak, with the exception of 2-E (although you have to force yourself to not Haar-skip it).

Not hard when the alternative to a Haar skip is loading up Neph, Brom and some others with EXP. Sure there aren't a ton of options to do this with owing to RD's Part system playing with availabilities, but I do like the real viable choice between the quick boss kill and the slow EXP defend. The only issue with the map is defending the lone point is a joke, it's a timed rout more than an actual defend.

 

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

playing a game I've made it perfectly obvious I hate with every fiber of my being??

Chill! Save your hate for something other than a little video game. I pity individuals who let themselves be devoured by such venom spent on such petty things in life. What good is it? Why love to hate so much? Dislike is fine, just save your hate for the real injustices of the world- keep things in perspective. I try to, despite my occasional stinging criticisms.

[Nobody]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't see why Geoffrey's Charge is attracting so much dislike.

Because it’s really, really boring. There’s no challenge, there’s no complexity, and it’s extremely slow. You don’t have to strategize. All you have to do is move Geoffrey to the boss and seize, while enduring the sluggish enemy and ally turns and watching 85293874 enemies slowly commit suicide by Geoffrey. The map is extremely trivial, there are basically no side objectives other than getting that speedwing (which is on an unit that will simply suicide on Geoffrey lol), there’s no risk of death, there’s no need to come up with anything more complex than moving Geoffrey forwards, waiting (LITERALLY) 5 minutes until it’s your turn again,  then moving Geoffrey forwards, then waiting 5 minutes again, moving Geoffrey’s forwards, waiting 5 turns again, checking if the speedwing guy was killed, parking Geoffrey in front of the boss, waiting 5 minutes again and seizing.

it’s literally as entertaining as watching paint dry.

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But Geoffrey's Charge isn't difficult either

Being challenging is a good thing. Geoffrey’s Charge being so easy and trivial adds to how absolutely awful it is.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Nobody