Book VII Discussion Thread

[Lemmy]

one thing that's bothering me is that the snake headed minions are everywhere, with chapter 13 we see the endgame is snakes everywhere, the focus on Gullveig does seem to be not seeing the forest for the trees, there's a threat external to those bodies, although with all three time traveling, finding the root is beleaguering.

[vikingsfan92]

5 hours ago, Mercakete said:

@vikingsfan92

(Not sure why it's in spoilertags but I'll follow suit.)

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As has been pointed out, making Heidr is an essential part of Gullveig coming into being. Kvasir is almost single-minded in her determination to "become Gullveig," and though Gullveig herself seems to be operating independently on the surface, she's going about her job in a really detached way. She talks about inevitability a lot, like she doesn't have a choice but to be as she is, but she's also the one who consciously destroyed the world, killed everyone, made Heidr, and sent herself back into the past to a point where she, herself "unwinds" and becomes Kvasir again. Heidr's whole purpose is to infect Seidr with the golden serpent curse. Is this Gullveig's plan? I think it's the plan she's following, yes, but everything still points to Njordr, I think. One constant all 3 timeline forms have is obedience. Gullveig is obedient to her fate, Kvasir is obedient to her task of becoming Gullveig, and the one that I think shines the most light on this whole situation is this: Seidr is completely obedient to Njordr. If all three forms are following the task he gave them, everything falls into place and makes sense on the whole. Plus, they got their time powers from his Ar, when Seidr absorbed it, and all this was according to his instruction (including the order to make a kid.) He could have this time loop going on as a stopgap to prevent Ragnarok. After all, if the world keeps ending in this time loop, then time can't progress, and humanity can't overthrow the gods. Especially since Freyr was killed and Freyja was made comatose by humans (and they may have been his kids since his sister is their aunt) he may be voluntarily taking a more active role in stopping them. Plus, in the past, Goat Aunt warned the Askrans about how much danger they were in, being mortals and coming into his realm, but his attitude was totally different from what she described when the Askrans came to his realm in the present (even with Seidr guiding them.) It sure looks like he's controlling the pace of things. Everything keeps coming back to him being the architect (even if it's actually Alfador who tasked Njordr with taking care of the regnarok prevention, as the case may be, which would lead nicely into an attack on Alfador himself in the next book.)

Something I forgot to say was that I was pleased to see the reference to the snake eating its tail/pair of snakes eating each other's tails in this chapter. It's a symbol of infinity, in a way: complete cycles. It was clearly the inspiration for this story, too, not only because of the Golden Serpent curse, but because of the time loop and inevitability themes. So, no worries, @DefyingFates, there's still some mythology they're sticking to. 😉

Probably could have lived without the spoiler tag but it was mainly because the banner just dropped and undsure if I need it or not. Still thinking about it more and don't really have much to add at the moment.

Also on a more humorous and less serious note Seior being Gullveig means that the summoner being thirsty in CYL is actually in a way cannon. Considering we have a kid with the CYL winner in a way. Also speaking of CYL does this chapter kind of hint at Brave Gullveig being blue with Story/ future mythic Gullvieg being colorless, Kvasir being red, Seior being Green all that's left is blue.

Edited June 9, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[DefyingFates]

1 hour ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Also speaking of CYL does this chapter kind of hint at Brave Gullveig being blue with Story/ future mythic Gullvieg being colorless, Kvasir being red, Seior being Green all that's left is blue.

A Blue Tome Cavalier, huh? Yeah, that does make sense.

Poor Reinhardt though.

[Mercakete]

12 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Probably could have lived without the spoiler tag but it was mainly because the banner just dropped and undsure if I need it or not. Still thinking about it more and don't really have much to add at the moment.

Also on a more humorous and less serious note Seior being Gullveig means that the summoner being thirsty in CYL is actually in a way cannon. Considering we have a kid with the CYL winner in a way. Also speaking of CYL does this chapter kind of hint at Brave Gullveig being blue with Story/ future mythic Gullvieg being colorless, Kvasir being red, Seior being Green all that's left is blue.

11 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

A Blue Tome Cavalier, huh? Yeah, that does make sense.

Poor Reinhardt though.

Yeah, I was thinking something vaguely similar (emphasis on the "vaguely" -- my thought process hadn't quite gotten there yet. I was more focused on the concept and design of Brave Gullveig than the movement type or weapon quite yet), having noticed the color tome differences. As for the players voting for Gullveig, I think that, ironically, a good number were wanting a snake beast version (which would be Heidr, not Gullveig, as it turns out.) Blue makes sense, though, especially with the concept I was thinking they might go in: Gullveig free of the curse. So, basically older Seidr, minus all the gold and snakes. They revealed her true identity already, so an "alternate future not-cursed serene waifu Gullveig" wouldn't be surprising. If they give her attire based on someone close to her, too, her clothes may be modeled after Kiran's (though I think it would be cool if design inspiration came from all 3 of her time forms -- Kvasir, Seidr, and Gullveig.)

But yeah, I thought of that too: how it's ironic that the fanbase kind of accepted the canon waifu (not that I'm personally in agreement with that sentiment. She is very, very not my type and I'm not on board with being killed and soul-ra...vaged. There was no consent. That said, usually it's the ladies who suffer that kind of thing irl, so it's intellectually an interesting inverse (even if I'm not for that kind of thing in any way, shape, or form, no matter who it's done to -- violent crimes are bad), since I guess most of the players are men? Can't be a huge difference in percentage, but I personally see Kiran's canon gender as male, since one time towards the beginning of the TT runs, Kiran was referred to as "he" (probably by accident) and the 3D model for Kiran leans male.)

[vikingsfan92]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:39 AM, Mercakete said:

Yeah, I was thinking something vaguely similar (emphasis on the "vaguely" -- my thought process hadn't quite gotten there yet. I was more focused on the concept and design of Brave Gullveig than the movement type or weapon quite yet), having noticed the color tome differences. As for the players voting for Gullveig, I think that, ironically, a good number were wanting a snake beast version (which would be Heidr, not Gullveig, as it turns out.) Blue makes sense, though, especially with the concept I was thinking they might go in: Gullveig free of the curse. So, basically older Seidr, minus all the gold and snakes. They revealed her true identity already, so an "alternate future not-cursed serene waifu Gullveig" wouldn't be surprising. If they give her attire based on someone close to her, too, her clothes may be modeled after Kiran's (though I think it would be cool if design inspiration came from all 3 of her time forms -- Kvasir, Seidr, and Gullveig.)

But yeah, I thought of that too: how it's ironic that the fanbase kind of accepted the canon waifu (not that I'm personally in agreement with that sentiment. She is very, very not my type and I'm not on board with being killed and soul-ra...vaged. There was no consent. That said, usually it's the ladies who suffer that kind of thing irl, so it's intellectually an interesting inverse (even if I'm not for that kind of thing in any way, shape, or form, no matter who it's done to -- violent crimes are bad), since I guess most of the players are men? Can't be a huge difference in percentage, but I personally see Kiran's canon gender as male, since one time towards the beginning of the TT runs, Kiran was referred to as "he" (probably by accident) and the 3D model for Kiran leans male.)

Not sure I see a no snake version of Gullveig for the Brave version when that is one thing that I feel got her more votes than people realize. Other alts sure she can lose the snakes for but brave I think it would be losing a big reason people gravitated towards with votes.  Now they might not be as in your face but the will show up I feel.

As for the summoner I feel like they probably walked back any gender references to the summoner but I do think more people picked the male version.

[Mercakete]

17 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Not sure I see a no snake version of Gullveig for the Brave version when that is one thing that I feel got her more votes than people realize. Other alts sure she can lose the snakes for but brave I think it would be losing a big reason people gravitated towards with votes.  Now they might not be as in your face but the will show up I feel.

As for the summoner I feel like they probably walked back any gender references to the summoner but I do think more people picked the male version.

I'm observing based on what IS is likely to do, not what would actually be smart. And as for Kiran, I'm observing based on what IS has done, not what the players have done. In the end, this is IS' intellectual property, and they've proven that they'll make whatever choices they want to regardless of the playerbase's feelings. That doesn't mean they don't take it into consideration at all, but they certainly don't let the players have the final call on the details of their choices.

[Xenomata]

So to sum up the events of the latest chapter:

• Seidhr does not want to become Gullveig
• Heidhr succumbs to the curse further, and runs away
• The old man appears and confirms the curse got worse, and that Heidhr needs to be put down.
• Seidhr reflects on the relationship between herself and her sister.
• By the final map Heidhr becomes a multi-headed snake monster (though retains her G.Tome Infantry status)
• The old man reveals his true colors, and that by killing Heidhr, Seidhr is now cursed with the Golden Seer's curse and is on the way to becoming Gullveig.

...well then, his life expectancy has been upgraded from carnival goldfish living in a blender... to carnival goldfish living in a blender owned by a paranoid nutter who thinks the goldfish killed his family, because now his death, or rather his murder, is all but confirmed guaranteed.

Now the only question that remains, is he going to be the final boss ala Eitr, or is he going to "outlive his usefulness" and be slaughtered by Gullveig?

Edited July 18, 2023 by Xenomata

[Mercakete]

Okay, there's a new chapter up, so time to post my thoughts as I go!

Alright, so Gullveig showed up and booted Seidr and the others out of the past, saying that she had to experience everything that Gullveig did. Makes sense.

Ah. And there's Heidr. Poor thing isn't doing well. Ah. Both her eyes are yellow now. Guess her heterochromia came from the curse.

Okay, so Njordr is saying to kill Heidr because there's nothing more they can do for her. Hrm... This is probably meant to contribute to Seidr's despair and belief in inevitability as Gullveig. If Njordr's the architect here, this is a cunning, shaping move that deflects suspicion away from him.

Oh wow. Okay, that dark film over Heidr's sprite, except for the gold bits, really has a powerful effect.

...... Flippin' called it. (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, go back in this thread and read all my theories on Njordr. I don't feel like rewriting them.)

Edited July 18, 2023 by Mercakete

[Mercakete]

1 hour ago, Xenomata said:

So to sum up the events of the latest chapter:

• Seidhr does not want to become Gullveig
• Heidhr succumbs to the curse further, and runs away
• The old man appears and confirms the curse got worse, and that Heidhr needs to be put down.
• Seidhr reflects on the relationship between herself and her sister.
• By the final map Heidhr becomes a multi-headed snake monster (though retains her G.Tome Infantry status)
• The old man reveals his true colors, and that by killing Heidhr, Seidhr is now cursed with the Golden Seer's curse and is on the way to becoming Gullveig.

...well then, his life expectancy has been upgraded from carnival goldfish living in a blender... to carnival goldfish living in a blender owned by a paranoid nutter who thinks the goldfish killed his family, because now his death, or rather his murder, is all but confirmed guaranteed.

Now the only question that remains, is he going to be the final boss ala Eitr, or is he going to "outlive his usefulness" and be slaughtered by Gullveig?

First, I continue to love your goldfish analogy.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "outlive his usefulness" since it's pretty clear that the one using the other is Njordr using Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig and Heidr.

[Xenomata]

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "outlive his usefulness" since it's pretty clear that the one using the other is Njordr using Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig and Heidr.

In the classic tale of "Assholes bring rise to a greater power in the hopes of getting in on said power" it can be more or less assumed that said greater power is definitely not interested in sharing, and more often than not murder is the best way to go about making sure they don't need to share without leaving behind people who might turn against them.

Of course, since he literally JUST flipped, we don't really know what Njordr's motives are. He could be a religious nutjob who thinks bringing about a groundhog-day apocalypse is cool, he could be one of those "the ends justifies the means" people, maybe he's being controlled by whatever higher being can be considered the true form of Gullveig.

Regardless, I think we can agree it isn't old age that'll be burying the old man...

[Mercakete]

3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

In the classic tale of "Assholes bring rise to a greater power in the hopes of getting in on said power" it can be more or less assumed that said greater power is definitely not interested in sharing, and more often than not murder is the best way to go about making sure they don't need to share without leaving behind people who might turn against them.

Of course, since he literally JUST flipped, we don't really know what Njordr's motives are. He could be a religious nutjob who thinks bringing about a groundhog-day apocalypse is cool, he could be one of those "the ends justifies the means" people, maybe he's being controlled by whatever higher being can be considered the true form of Gullveig.

Regardless, I think we can agree it isn't old age that'll be burying the old man...

Nah, I think he's the "secret" big bad of the book. He's taken quite the measure to make Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig loyal to him (none of them ever question him), and as I've said before, my guess is that his motive is a combination of preventing Ragnarok by making a time loop in which humanity never wins, and revenge for Freyr and Freyja's respective conditions (since it was said at the beginning of the "present" arc that they were related to everyone in Njordr's realm. Also, Goat Aunt is their aunt and Njordr's sister, so they could have been his kids.) This could be something Alfador told him to do (or even just sanctioned) or Njordr could just be doing himself, but that seems to be where things are pointing.

Of course, Gullveig could wind up turning the tables on Njordr once she doesn't care about anything anymore (in which case this would have happened just before what was in Kiran's vision of the future) but she was specifically destroying the human world and following his instructions every step of the way, so this all seems to be in accordinace with his orders to me.

He's definitely getting slain, though, just like Surtr, Hel, Freyja (except she just went comatose), Eitri, and Embla, as the "player needs to overcome the big bad, probably with some sort of rite that affects Briedablik" villain.

I still hope he turns into a sea serpent. He could be some sort of chimera, though, since two of the chimera's heads were a goat's and a snake's. (The lion would be a bit random, though, so maybe he's a capricorn (mer goat)? He's the sea god, after all. But given his steely color scheme and that serpent-head-like shoulder thing, I'm thinking more sea serpent. Kind of random that he's not s goat, though. Unless something like what I said just now.)

[Tybrosion]

5 hours ago, Xenomata said:

In the classic tale of "Assholes bring rise to a greater power in the hopes of getting in on said power" it can be more or less assumed that said greater power is definitely not interested in sharing, and more often than not murder is the best way to go about making sure they don't need to share without leaving behind people who might turn against them.

Yeah, like Dr. Eggman in a lot of Sonic the Hedgehog games starting with Adventure. Spoilers, it usually never works out like Eggman hoped.

Anyways as for this story chapter, yeah the dude being evil was entirely predictable. We really should have just listened to the land goddess with big titties.

[Aedan7479]

It occurred to me that if final chapter is Chapter 1 (which I reckon is a safe assumption), it might be us going back in time again, to stop Njordr from starting the curse. 

Wait... that's assuming Njordr was feigning ignorance when Kvasir showed up. Maybe Njoldr goes back in time to ensure the curse continues, and we follow? But I'm fairly certain Njordr will be our green final boss.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Aedan7479

[FionordeQuester]

Sone of Njordr's behavior and dialogue seems odd, for someone who's supposedly trying to help Gullveig (he reacts with horror at Kvasir's message,for example).  Plus, he always told Seidr to keep her true emotions hidden... And I also don't want to believe that the Midpoint trailer would be so obviously misleading...

 

So I'm going to bet on a double twist, and say this is only an act.  He's Severus Snape, he's going to sacrifice himself in some way, and the party's only going to do what he needs them to do if he acts evil.  Also, Nerthus is in on whatever he's planning. 

 

Why is that necessary?  Not a clue.  But it's the only way I can think of to reconcile his trailer and past self with what we're seeing now. 

[DefyingFates]

3 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Why is that necessary?  Not a clue.  But it's the only way I can think of to reconcile his trailer and past self with what we're seeing now. 

Perhaps, but maybe something just happened to change Njordr's mind between the Kvasir and present day eras?

[Seafarer]

The more I think about it, the less I trust that this book is going to have a really satisfying ending. Gullveig was introduced as being able to see all of time, so I don't think anyone she's relying on betraying her is likely to be her undoing - she should see it, and it should only further her overall scheme. Same with whatever Nerþuz has going on - that has to be part of Gullveig's plan, because she can see everything.

I think the way this has to go is that we need to prevent Seiðr's despair from happening in the first place, so we're going to have to save Heiðr from ever being cursed somehow, retconning the recent chapter out of existence, so Seiðr never becomes infected or gives in to despair. But still, how are we going to do that when Gullveig should be capable of seeing it happening? Unless we do something that causes Gullveig herself to see a way out of her inevitability mindset, and she just lets us do it to save her past self from losing Heiðr?

Honestly, I think that Gullveig is just too overwhelming a villain for any option for defeating her to hold up against her established powers. Anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

[FionordeQuester]

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Perhaps, but maybe something just happened to change Njordr's mind between the Kvasir and present day eras?

If that was the case, I would expect him to be more nihilistic and cold about it, rather than maniacally ranting.

Besides, there's quite a bit that doesn't add up:

 

1) In Chapter 6, Gullveig's forces are attacking Heidr while she's out alone.  He warns the party of this, and thus saves her.  But that begs the question of "why are they attacking the lynch pin to their plan" and "why would Njordr let her be running around exposed"?  

 

2) Nerthuz's very first reaction to Seidr is "Y-you! My, my...".  When Shareena asks what that's about, Nerthuz brushes it off by saying she was surprised at how adorable they all are... But she also lets this slip:

"Aw!  Just adorable!  Look at your little faces... Cute even when you haven't a clue what's happening..."

And then also basically tells the party "Look, we're going to meet in the past and you're going to need something from me--here's what to say when we do".  Afterwards, the scene ends with her saying" I will see you darlings again... someday... "

It's exceedingly obvious that she knows a lot more about what's happening, and what's about to happen, than she's letting on. 

 

3) Related to that, it's clear that her past self had noticed that Kvasir.  "...Hm?  What's this? Someone else has traveled through time here to Vanaheimr?"  Meaning she's had to have sussed things out at some point.

 

4) If King Njorder was truly in on it from the start... Then Gullveig had absolutely no need (that I can think of) to show up in Chapter 8.  Seidr would have just done the Rite of Light, gone home, found her sister cursed beyond saving, killed her, then ended up exactly how she is now.  

 

5) It's clear from his conversation with Kvasir that he thought Gullveig was bad news--so it's really not clear what he would actually gain from summoning her preemptively, unless he believes she'll be possible to kill/dispose of that way. 

 

6) I think it'd be a cool double twist.  People would be surprised, yet still feel like it makes perfect sense (given how he seemed in the Midpoint cutscene).

Edited July 21, 2023 by FionordeQuester

[Lemmy]

Based off the trailer we know Nerthus will grant us a power up, we will power up Seither but since she’s Gullveig, that should prove disastrous. And the book 1 trailer showed Nerthus crying which I can’t remember her doing.

I’m still not sure if Heither was conceived, it seems weird Njorder would reveal he’s evil if he still needed that to happen.The conception was mentioned in chapter 8, so chapter 9 doesn’t leave much time for it if numbers correspond chronologically

Also still not sure why Veronica was kidnapped.

[Mercakete]

Okay, I think I'll go ahead and address things as I see them, then.

12 hours ago, Seafarer said:

The more I think about it, the less I trust that this book is going to have a really satisfying ending. Gullveig was introduced as being able to see all of time, so I don't think anyone she's relying on betraying her is likely to be her undoing - she should see it, and it should only further her overall scheme. Same with whatever Nerþuz has going on - that has to be part of Gullveig's plan, because she can see everything.

I think the way this has to go is that we need to prevent Seiðr's despair from happening in the first place, so we're going to have to save Heiðr from ever being cursed somehow, retconning the recent chapter out of existence, so Seiðr never becomes infected or gives in to despair. But still, how are we going to do that when Gullveig should be capable of seeing it happening? Unless we do something that causes Gullveig herself to see a way out of her inevitability mindset, and she just lets us do it to save her past self from losing Heiðr?

Honestly, I think that Gullveig is just too overwhelming a villain for any option for defeating her to hold up against her established powers. Anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

The important thing to look at here is the mindset of Gullveig. She's not scheming or planning anything -- she's just going through the motions as they've been handed to her from Njordr. The way she figures it, she has to obey him, and has no hope of being rescued since everything is inevitable. As such, she has no drive to the end of stopping Njordr, overthrowing him, or anything else. That aligns with her two major traits that we see throughout all three of her forms, and one trait unique to her that she's acquired through the passage of time.

The traits all three forms share: First, absolute loyalty and obedience to Njordr. Second, ... Actually, I forgot this mid-explanation, but it's probably not actually important. These two traits (including the one I list below) are enough.

The single most defining trait of Gullveig as opposed to her past selves (and especially Seidr): Nihilism. As Njordr put it at the end of the chapter this time, she lost all hope over time until she just started letting everything happen. This includes just doing everything she's told (which is easy for her to get into since it was something she did all along.)

So, how do we defeat Gullveig? There are a lot of options here, since she doesn't want to stop us, she just figures us stopping is inevitable, so she goes through with stopping us because she's told to. However, she's never in a rush to do so. If she has any desire as Gullveig (besides obeying Njordr) it's to be stopped. She wants the cycle to end, even if she's had that pain of inevitability for so long that she doesn't realize that she still has this desire. But if she didn't, she wouldn't be talking about how "everything is inevitable" all the time, and so sadly. It's an odd case of being an active player while seeing yourself as an audience member.

As such, even if she can foresee something, she won't necessarily stop it. It depends on her reaction time, and if Njordr also foresaw it and told her to stop it. That said, it's better to stop any of this from ever having happened in the first place. As such, going back in time and stopping Njordr before Kvasir becomes a player is probably the best option. We may need Goat Aunt's help for that, but since she didn't recognize us in the past, but we know she steals the Ar (Njordr's time power, which is what gives Seidr her time powers) eventually, we'll probably wind up going to the past after her first meeting with us and help her steal the Ar. That, or she steals the Ar to come to the future/present in order to rescue us, then we go all the way to the future past when we're all killed and defeat Njordr while our past selves are dealing with Gullveig, using our past selves in the future as a diversion for our present selves to launch a gambit in the future, taking advantage of how Njordr planned things out (his not taking to account that we could still fight after the world was dried up and our other selves were dead, and in fact letting what's happened to us work to our advantage), and when he's missing his Ar. ... If you can follow that. Anyway, it's just "go where they're not looking," in short.

11 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

If that was the case, I would expect him to be more nihilistic and cold about it, rather than maniacally ranting.

Besides, there's quite a bit that doesn't add up:

 

1) In Chapter 6, Gullveig's forces are attacking Heidr while she's out alone.  He warns the party of this, and thus saves her.  But that begs the question of "why are they attacking the lynch pin to their plan" and "why would Njordr let her be running around exposed"?  

 

2) Nerthuz's very first reaction to Seidr is "Y-you! My, my...".  When Shareena asks what that's about, Nerthuz brushes it off by saying she was surprised at how adorable they all are... But she also lets this slip:

"Aw!  Just adorable!  Look at your little faces... Cute even when you haven't a clue what's happening..."

And then also basically tells the party "Look, we're going to meet in the past and you're going to need something from me--here's what to say when we do".  Afterwards, the scene ends with her saying" I will see you darlings again... someday... "

It's exceedingly obvious that she knows a lot more about what's happening, and what's about to happen, than she's letting on. 

 

3) Related to that, it's clear that her past self had noticed that Kvasir.  "...Hm?  What's this? Someone else has traveled through time here to Vanaheimr?"  Meaning she's had to have sussed things out at some point.

 

4) If King Njorder was truly in on it from the start... Then Gullveig had absolutely no need (that I can think of) to show up in Chapter 8.  Seidr would have just done the Rite of Light, gone home, found her sister cursed beyond saving, killed her, then ended up exactly how she is now.  

 

5) It's clear from his conversation with Kvasir that he thought Gullveig was bad news--so it's really not clear what he would actually gain from summoning her preemptively, unless he believes she'll be possible to kill/dispose of that way. 

 

6) I think it'd be a cool double twist.  People would be surprised, yet still feel like it makes perfect sense (given how he seemed in the Midpoint cutscene).

I appreciate you going back for exact quotes. That said, there's an important part of reasoning you need to remember to incorporate (actually, 2): consistency doesn't always happen (i.e., characters can lie or give partial information), and interpretation plays a role as to what characters actually mean by what they say. As such, it's important to look at everything as context.

So, allow me to try my hand at explaining all this, since I've never found anything that can't be explained yet (though there are "if"s attached here.)

First, it's important to keep in mind a theme which keeps resounding around Gullveig (and Kvasir): "everything that must happen will happen." Remember, Njordr's the one who plotted all this, and it is from his Ar that Seidr got her time powers to begin with. (Before, she was just a hope goddess.) So, here's my theory (since, while there's situation al evidence to support it, there's no solid evidence yet): he used his Ar to go through MANY futures until he found a stream of events which resulted in the time loop which yielded the future he wanted: the destruction of the human world. Then, he just had to make it happen.

As for your specific qualms, I'll try to tackle them one at a time (I'll match my answers to the numbering you used.)

1. There's no reason why he had to keep anything other than his true nature covered up during these events. Besides the fact that, in order to destroy the human world, Gullveig had to actually go out and destroy it at some point, it actually worked in Njordr's favor to let things play out overtly. First, he looked very uninvolved. As far as anyone could tell, he was letting Heidr do as she wished, and seemingly had nothing to do with Gullveig since they really looked like they were each acting independently (I still caught wind of it, but let's ignore that for now.) Plus, Gullveig acted as a diversion. She was looked at as the source of all the problems, but especially two major ones: she was destroying the world (both an immediate threat, and a catalyst to get Askr (and thus the summoner) involved), and she had golden snakes (giving a possible explanation for the golden snake curse if need be.) These all turned into assumptions people would make on their own without Njordr having to say a word.

2. It's important to remember that Goat Aunt (I cannot be bothered to learn her name, I guess, since I keep calling her that and I think I wind up Romanizing her name as Nerpuz, which just sounds awkward to me) has met the Askrans in the past. We may not have even seen all of our shared experiences yet, but what is certain is that she's aware of a lot more at this point than we are (since she's been going through time at a steady rate, and all this after we told her some of what was going on in the past.) Plus, she's the one who steals the Ar (reportedly -- could just be that she helps us steal it sometime in the past and Njordr didn't want to tell us that we stole it but know it had been entrusted to her), and she's Njordr's sister. That gives her proximity, which gives her opportunity to learn or figure out what's going on with him. So, even if all she did was learn and not act, there's a high chance that by the time this happens, she's learned quite a bit, explaining her wording. When she says that we "don't have a clue what's happening," she's saying that because she can tell that we haven't gone into the past yet. So, of course we wouldn't know yet. Besides, we had Seidr with us. That gives her some idea of where in the events we are.

So, yes, she knew more than she was saying. I don't see how that's a problem, though. It lines up fine with everything else.

3. Kvasir had just gone through before us, so again, nothing unusual here. (Are you giving her more credit than she deserves? She's not exactly conniving.)

4. This can basically be addressed by my first answer, I think.

5. I'd have to look up the conversation again, but he could have just been putting on an act, or this could be an issue of misinterpretation of tone/what he meant by what he said by the reader. The "he was being disingenuous" explanation especially applies if he was in on it from the start, since he seems to be a very careful planner and actor.

6. This seems more like an opinion than a point, and I don't think people would necessarily react the way you think they would. It largely depends on the delivery, but it would seem more like a mistake than a "double twist" to me.

Anyway, yeah, not finding anything that debunks him being the actual mastermind behind everything. If you have more, I'd be happy to take a look at it, though.

7 hours ago, Lemmy said:

Based off the trailer we know Nerthus will grant us a power up, we will power up Seither but since she’s Gullveig, that should prove disastrous. And the book 1 trailer showed Nerthus crying which I can’t remember her doing.

I’m still not sure if Heither was conceived, it seems weird Njorder would reveal he’s evil if he still needed that to happen.The conception was mentioned in chapter 8, so chapter 9 doesn’t leave much time for it if numbers correspond chronologically

Also still not sure why Veronica was kidnapped.

The trailers are never reliable sources of information. (They've let me down with inconsistencies before. I don't trust them now.) I feel like they're made while the writers are still roughing out the finer details of the story (partially because how much time it takes to make an animation and how overworked big industries are with their ridiculous timetables.)

Another thing is that what Goat Aunt guides the summoner to do may not have been a powerup. Seidr's eyes went all viper and yellow and she glowed a lot, sure, but what if that was something else? Anything about that right now is assumption based upon something not super reliable. I'd wait before saying things for sure about events that haven't happened yet in the story.

Other things: I don't know that Veronica was actually kidnapped. She was spoken to, and Gullveig said that it wasn't time for her destruction, but as I recall, that's all we actually saw. She could've just left after that. I think the point of that scene was to establish that Gullveig was a nihilist, but was operating off of a predetermined timeline, and didn't actually have ill intention. Also, "here's what Veronica's up to."

As for Heidr, we saw her creation already (which took place in the future after she killed the summoner and yoinked a bit of soul as Kiran was dying.) Then, she sent Heidr into the past to be Seidr's sister, turned into Kvasir, and went into the past herself to keep the time loop going.

[Seafarer]

@Mercakete I guess it kinda makes sense if you assume Gullveig has no agency, but why would defeating Njörðr cause her to stop? From her perspective, surely he's only one time rewind from being back again, and his instructions still exist in her brain. I still think that, in the case that she lacks agency, the only reasonable ways to end her threat are to 1) get Njörðr to change his instructions to her or b) snap her out of the despairing inevitability mindset that caused her to abandon her agency in the first place.

Oh, and you say that she's loyal to Njörðr in all her forms, but I don't think, as Seiðr, she's blindly so. I read her as being obedient to his will because she had no reason not to trust him, as the chief god of Vanaheimr. I wouldn't expect that to stick now that he's revealed himself as the cause of her transformation into Gullveig.

...and now I'm wondering whether we should've agreed to have a baby with Seiðr, to make a Heiðr born free of the golden curse.

[FionordeQuester]

@Mercakete I'm going to lose my place if I individually quote everything in these large walls of text, so I'll make my response a bit more general.

Trailer Discrepancies in Heroes

I'll be honest—I'm completely new to Heroes in general.  I know absolutely nothing of what happened in Books 1-6, apart from some proper nouns of important NPCs.  The only reason I discovered Book 7 was because I saw a Twitter post of the "Would you create a child with me?" line, and though "Whoa... What's the context behind that?!"

So if the trailers have a habit of being misleading, then I could very well be tying myself in knots over nothing.  I apologize in advance.

The Mindset of Gullveig:

I had a completely different read on her, actually.  To me, she's like Sephiroth—a cold-hearted sociopath who likes acting high and mighty, but lets the mask slip every so often to revel in her victims' despair.  I mean... Just look at her expressions (albeit from the trailers).  We have...

Psychotic Grin Before Murdering Alfonse:

Mocking Caress Before Killing Kiran (and possible soul stealing):

Satisfied Smirk as She Watches Him Disintegrate

Predatory Smile As She's Manipulating an Emotionally Vulnerable Girl

And then when their deaths are somehow undone in the 1st trailer, and Seidr somehow shows up uncorrupted...

 

Gullveig reacts like this:

That, to me, is not the look of someone who wants to be stopped.  That's the look of someone who's angry these insects won't stay dead when she kills them.

-----------------------------

Of course, if the trailers tend to be as misleading as you say, then you could indeed interpret all of Gullveig's words and actions through the lens of someone full of sorrow and despair (as her in-game portrait has a much more neutral expression).  But, I always interpreted them through the lens of someone who just likes screwing with her victims (like with her pretending to be defeated in Chapter 13 as well as her messing with Veronica for no visible gain). 

Really though, if Gullveig turns out to not want to kill things, despite the 1st trailer showing us otherwise... I'm going to feel pretty miffed >_> .

About Nerthuz

Yes, you can explain most of her behavior just via her encountering everyone in the past... But what gets me is "Why would she give the Ar away so easily"?  If Njorder was such a vile person (and she would know), then surely she would have kept it instead?  That's part of why I feel like Njorder himself is also part of the plan to stop Gullveig—otherwise, she wouldn't have let it go under any circumstances.

Also, my point about Kvasir is that she probably kept close enough tabs to realize that Kvasir grows up into Seidr, which itself is a pretty big tip-off to what's going on.  That was my only point for #3.

About Njorder Being a Very Careful Actor and Planner:

I'll admit, I didn't think about him also having time travel powers... But yes, he most likely does, if he can grant Seidr that power so easily.  At any rate, him being so guarded with his emotions, and him constantly encouraging his...daughter(?)...to be the same is part of why I'm thinking he's still got a surprise or two in store for us.  Perhaps something that will shock even Gullveig (perhaps he'll do something uncharacteristically loving or self-sacrificial that completely messes up the plan).

Would My Idea Be a Good Twist?:

I just don't like the idea of the "twist" being that the obvious bad guy was indeed the obvious bad guy.  The only reason to think otherwise would be a brief interaction in the past, and a trailer that turned out to be full of hogwash.  

The latter would lose a lot of good will with me.

How Could Gullveig Be Defeated?:

Mortal Kombat 11 actually had a pretty good answer for this question, with a main villain (Kronika) that had basically the exact same abilities as Gullveig.  Conversation is here at 4:13...

https://youtu.be/9EcDErjIbnw?t=253

Long story short, Raiden here (one of two heroes) figures out that Kronika had been restarting time over and over again as part of her diabolical plan—and in each timeline, she kept him from joining forces with Liu Kang (the other hero).  The details of each timeline were different, but the end result was always the same—his utter failure.  She bragged about that to Raiden, confident that even having revealed her plan and the way to defeat her, he would still have no hope.  After all...

"Do you think this is the first time [you've discovered my plans]?  We have repeated this exact conversation so often, in so many timelines, I have lost count... We have played out all possible scenarios, Raiden.  You cannot win.  You are welcome to try, of course..."

Unfortunately for her, however... This Raiden later did something completely unexpected—something that he never thought to do in all of those previous timelines.  Turns out, all those seemingly insignificant details mattered after all.  Kronika got complacent, didn't double-check the results of the game's current timeline (since nothing's ever changed before), and paid the price for it.

My guess is, something similar happens here.  Gullveig foresaw the point that Seidr would transform into her in this timeline, and never looked beyond that.  But then it turns out that the bond between Kiran & Seidr, as well as Nerthuz's pink energy, is strong enough that Seidr actually undoes the transformation—something Gullveig would have never thought possible.  And by the time she realizes what's happened, it's already too late—our heroes are already on their way to stopping her once and for all.

Edited July 22, 2023 by FionordeQuester

[Mercakete]

@Seafarer

Your 2nd option is totally possible. If Seidr just says "no" then it could very well be that Gullveig never comes into being (except that we need a way to extract the snake curse from her which we don't necessarily have yet.)

And that's the important bit here. Njordr only revealed his true colors because the event which ensures the cycle continues happened: Seidr contracted the golden serpent curse. He had to act and misdirect until that happened, but once it did, the threat of failure was gone.

As for Seidr blindly following or not blindly following, she comes off as someone with a predisposition to want to follow orders (there are people like that out there) and she's shown herself to not make connections very easily (and by that I mean "putting pieces together/figuring things out.") This makes her easy to use by someone she sees as an authority figure (in this case, Njordr) and it would be hard, even after knowing what he's like, for her to stop following his orders. So, even if it's put plainly to her, she may struggle with choosing not to follow him anymore.

All that said, defeating Njordr still works to break the time loop depending on when it takes place. In the scenario I spoke of, Gullveig was distracted, busy killing the Askrans of the future who knew nothing of what was going on. Thinking she knew where they were, she (given her tendencies and how deeply/shallowly she tends to think) likely wouldn't realize that other versions of them were elsewhere at the same time. Plus, we saw her actions: she goes back to being Kvasir and goes to the past immediately after making Heidr, which is immediately after killing Kiran. She doesn't stop and check to see if other versions of the Askrans are around, and when she goes back to being Kvasir, she loses her power. During this time -- right when the time loop is restarting -- Njordr is vulnerable if he's still alive.

It's entirely possible that Njordr dies sometime between Seidr getting cursed and Gullveig going off to melt the world. That could even be part of what makes Seidr lose her mind, as what was once familiar is now gone. That's just a possibility, though, and I don 't think IS' history with how they like setting up their stories supports it.

Another time where it would work is if Seidr was stopped from killing Heidr, but that didn't happen. Yet another would be if Kvasir never reached Njordr (so going back to the past to after Gullveig sent us back to the present could work) but I don't think that's going to be how this plays out either, exactly. The best time to stop Njordr (that hasn't already been ruled out by how the story progresses, and that follows story elements IS reliably includes in their Heroes stories) is before he sets all of this in motion, during the resetting of the time loop (after Heidr's sent to the past and Gullveig becomes Kvasir again), or ... I had another one but I forgot it.

Anyway, if Njordr gets defeated, it messes up the time loop and takes away Gullveig's reason for doing all the stuff she's doing/done/whatever. Plus, knowing IS, they wanted to make Njorder the book's big bad and want the players to feel sympathy toward Gullveig, so that's where the story's most likely to go regardless, following their writing pattern: fakeout big boss, real big boss revealed at the midpoint, big bad boss fight to round off the final fight of the book, sympathy for female characters, male characters die and only sometimes get sympathy. (Veronica was more of a "to be continued, but you should feel bad for her" in Book 1, Surtr was just written as "yeah, he's evil, good riddance" in Book 2, Hel had her mother/daughter moment with Eir at the end of Book 3, Book 4 has Freyja's infamous "feel sorry for her" slathered stuff, Book 5 has Eitri being motivated by loss (believing their divine dragon had abandoned them), Book 6 had Embla being all lonely and even accentuated this in future appearances, especially with Askr vouching for her all the time (like Freyr did for Freyja.)) Granted, I think we'll see some sympathy for Njordr in the future, too. After all, Freyr and Freyja may have been his kids, and he might be mourning them through all this.

Anyway, IS likes to write (in Heroes) definite big bads for final boss fights, and they like these to be people who weren't who you were opposing in the first half. Everything is following that in this book, too. (The first half, you thought the big bad was Gullveig if you only looked at the story itself. Now that we're in the 2nd half, Njordr's revealed to be the mastermind. He is for sure going to be the final boss of the book.)

@FionordeQuester

Indeed, I've found (especially with regard to recent books) the trailers shouldn't be taken as evidences toward the story contents too much. Their main purpose seems to be just getting the hype up and revealing major events with somewhat inaccurate contexts (to the point where they don't portray the characters correctly.) It's more "ooo! Excitement! Mystery! Don't you think a character like this would act this way?" rather than "This is an accurate portrayal of what the characters are like and what they do." So, best to look at the story without keeping the trailers in mind.

Taking Book 6 as an example since that one's complete, the opening trailer portrayed Ash as being less refined than she is (even though she really is clumsy), and even misrepresented how she fights. Contrary to the trailer, she transforms into a cow and shoots lasers. She does not summon lightning using her cowbell polearm. Similar situation with Elm, who looked a lot more personally invested in his mission than he was ever shown to be in the actual story. (In the trailer, he looked like he was very emotionally invested in fighting the Askrans/Veronica, but he was actually just kind of "I was told to so I'm here. Whatevs. Lady Embla deserves better than you guys.") Also, he does not (to my disappointment) use his tuning fork polearm to direct bats in order to attack. That said, his bat form is (in my opinion) cute, so it's more like "I would've liked to see both actually happen" than wishing for one over the other. (It's just that I found the "tuning fork -> sonic communication with bats" idea as genius, so it's sad that that was a trailer-only thing.)

Also, I just want to say I appreciate all the effort you put into your post. Nicely done. Now, moving on to your specific points.

Goat Aunt topic:

As for why she would give up the Ar so easily, that's simple. It's 1 of 2 reasons: either she's following a plan the Askrans gave her in a conversation we haven't seen yet, or she just doesn't actually care. It's best to think of her as bubble-headed and aloof without much interest in getting involved in all of this. That's not NO interest, just not interested enough to call the shots, get in the way (after Sharena's catgirl performance, anyway, since before then she was actively trying to keep the Askrans out of Njordr's place, and even warned them that he wouldn't tolerate them and all that. So, yes, she already knew her brother's low tolderance for humans, which actually makes his being open to them visiting in the present even more suspect), or help out all that much. If it doesn't require much effort, then she's willing to help since she thinks the humans are cute.

Seidr topic:

Not a bad idea. That could work. The main question there, though, is if IS thought to write that in. My projections about where the story is going are based on 3 things: what hard evidence/clues we have (such as dialogue that's already been published in the game), what the canon dictates can or cannot happen (so, world/situation "rules"), and IS' tendencies as writers (specifically within the context of Heroes since their writing is a bit different in other main series titles.) I'm constantly checking my theories against new data as it comes out in the story (as per the first 2 things I use for my predictions) and using it to narrow down where the story is going. So, that's my method, anyway. It has a really high success rate, I've found. (I don't ONLY use it for this game, after all.)

[Seafarer]

@Mercakete Yeah, I see where you're coming from, and I'm sure you're right about where IntSys is headed, but that's still thoroughly unsatisfying to me, and that's because of how changes to the past propagate. There are two common versions of it, right? Either changes to the past alter the future, erasing anything from that future, or changes cause a new timeline to split off.

If we take us killing Njörðr in the past as the victory condition, what happens? If it's a future-altering event, we erase everything of the old future with Gullveig, including our motivation to kill Njörðr in the past and our ability to time travel to do it. That's a paradox - killing Njörðr leads to us being unable to kill him, leading to us needing to go back and kill him, and so on forever.

So what if we make a new timeline? Well, now there's nothing to stop Gullveig travelling from the old timeline in an attempt to put our new timeline back on her schedule. If we can do it, so can she.

So we either need super time powers on our side to smooth out the paradox and allow us to continue to exist into the future of the altered timeline (which would kinda be a deus ex machina at this point, since paradoxes haven't been discussed throughout this entire time-travelling Book), or Gullveig needs to be convinced to stop. Or some other explanation of temporal propagation would be needed.

One crack theory that I had after seeing Fionorde's post is that Njörðr is in fact trying to break the time loop by encouraging Seiðr to make Heiðr before Seiðr gets cursed, so Heiðr is also never cursed and cannot infect Seiðr. He's turned "evil" because he needs to convince Gullveig that he's on her side and his only hope now is to loop again and have another go at convincing Seiðr. In that case, he could be convinced to pull a Freyr and sacrifice his past self to prevent his Ár being used to create Gullveig, leaving us to kill Kvasir in the past in order to erase Gullveig completely (and we could have Njörðr's time powers on our side to break the paradox there, in theory). But that's pretty far out, and I don't expect it to happen (and it also either erases Seiðr or leaves her cursed).

[FionordeQuester]

8 hours ago, Seafarer said:

So we either need super time powers on our side to smooth out the paradox and allow us to continue to exist into the future of the altered timeline (which would kinda be a deus ex machina at this point, since paradoxes haven't been discussed throughout this entire time-travelling Book), or Gullveig needs to be convinced to stop. Or some other explanation of temporal propagation would be needed.

That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking—that the only way to beat someone like Gullveig (who can literally rewind time, teleport, regenerate, and disintegrate with just a touch) is to get someone else who can match her abilities.  So if I were writing this... My chapters would go something like this:

Chapter 10:

Njorder keeps cackling maniacally, ranting about the futility of resisting fate.  They're screwed—so why not just lie down and die?  Put themselves out of their misery, instead of dragging it out?  He proceeds to flatten the party with his full power.  Only the timely intervention of Nerthuz allows them to escape.  Thus a long string of fights, all the while with Seidr struggling with her curse...

Chapter 11:

Seidr is barely hanging on... But, something's bothering her.  Why can't she remember anything about her past?  Then, Gullveig shows up to engage you in another series of battles.  Throughout each, she keeps dropping bread crumbs about what Seidr's mysterious past might be.  Eventually, when Seidr is at her lowest, Gullveig reawakens her memories... The awful truth within.

See her hair color?  How it's like a mix of Njorder's platinum blue and Nerthuz's pink?

  

Well, that's because Seidr had a mother as well—the sister of Nerthuz, in fact!  Nerthuz isn't Njorder's sister by blood, but by marriage! 

Now, said mother was the original target of the Golden Seer's curse.  She was the one who gave Seidr her inspirational saying about hope, in fact!  But, for whatever reason (whether it be punishment for an ancient sin or just an inevitable prophecy or whatever), the curse is targeting their line.  

So... Njorder killed her.  He did so in an attempt to prevent her from becoming Gullveig, as he feared she would.  Seidr either witnessed it first hand, or was otherwise traumatized at the loss... So, Njorder wiped her memories. 

Nerthuz was pretty angry about that, of course.  So angry, she stole Njorder's Ar, as revenge for what he did to her sister.

Still, that bit of nastiness aside, all seemed good for a time... Until the curse mysteriously appeared on her—it seems that slaying the original carrier just meant that it hopped to the next person in line.  What's more... Her memories awakened... And the memory of Njorder killing her mom was precisely what she didn't need to hang on to her humanity.  On the road Past!Njorder took to avoid certain doom... He caused it instead!  That's what his conversation with Kvasir was all about!

So, present timeline Seidr finally gives in to despair, and becomes the new Gullveig.  The old Gullveig, satisfied with this outcome, waltzes on back to the future—she's already won, after all... Right?

Chapter 12:

This one is all about trying to get Seidr back—to this end, the gang recruits Nerthuz.  And thus, after a harrowing series of fights, Kiran, Alfonse, and everyone else helps Seidr regain herself through the power of love, friendship, and Nerthuz's pink energy.  She is thus reborn as Seidrveig!  And guess what?  Seidrveig retains all of her new powers!  At last, someone in the party can fight Gullveig on her own terms!

But, their work isn't done yet!  Gullveig's eventually going to figure out what happened, so the gang needs to hotfoot it to the place where it all began... The day Njorder slew Seidr's mom.  Nerthuz can't come with, as two people can't occupy the same point in time (which is why Gullveig reincarnated as Kvasir, and sent Seidr back before she wiped her memory)... So, they head off.  They do so, and after their gone...

Njorder shows up on the scene.  

"Have they gone back?"  He asks.

"Yes they have."  Nerthuz answers.  Njorder bows his head and closes his eyes, in solemn silence...

"...So it shall be..."

Chapter 1:

By this point, Gullveig's figured out what's happened, and she's not happy about it.  She and Kvasir go back to engage the party in one last battle.  Kvasir is fought and redeemed, past!Njorder is slain, and then finally comes the super-mega-ultimate battle between Seidrveig and Gullveig! 

Then when all that nonsense is done, Seidrveig absorbs the curse afflicting her mom.  She's already conquered it, after all.  So now the day is saved!  Hooray!  But, one last scene...

Epilogue:

So, the party comes back to the present... And sees Njorder on the ground, semi-transluscent and fading fast.  Yet, expression is what surprises them most... Then comes a big exposition dump...

King Njorder couldn't stop the curse.  No matter how many different timelines he peered through with his Ar, he could not find any way of preventing the transformation.  Even if he killed the current carrier of the curse, it would just transfer over to someone else.  So, there was only one logical conclusion...

The curse had to be overcome from the inside.  But, doing so was going to take tremendous strength of will—far more than could be expected of anyone, much less an emotionally vulnerable young goddess like Seidr.  So instead of trying to stop the transformation, Njorder made it happen at the most advantageous time!

And thus... The quest he and Nerthuz constructed—as well as the vow he compelled Seidr to make with Kiran. 

See, the child was only half of what was important about it.  The other purpose behind it was to forge a bond between the two that would be ever strengthened by each new trial and hardship.  In this way, and with her own newfound maturity, Seidr would find the support structure and inner strength needed to overcome the Golden Seer's curse.

This was a risky gamble... But it was also the only way Gullveig wouldn't feel the need to interfere.  After all, she could never comprehend someone actually reversing the curse!  

Heidr's death was an unfortunate necessity for keeping up this nihilistic facade... But, if all went well, she would be reborn anyway.

At any rate, Njorder had to play the villain—otherwise, Gullveig might have suspected something.  Plus, Seidr and co. might have hesitated to slay him in the past.  And... He needs to atone for his crimes—his ruthlessness was part of why they got in this mess, after all. 

He then vanishes away... And at that moment, Heidr is born, curse free.  It's was as though Njorder had traded his life for hers... 

Seidr rules on as the new queen of the land, with her mother and Heidr alive and well at her side.  She bids a fond farewell to Kiran and friends, who then go on to their next adventure.  The end. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by FionordeQuester

[Lemmy]

I'm leaning toward Kvasir being the final boss myself, her powers would allow her to tell Njorder exactly the right thing to manipulate him.

Why I'm not sure, she tells us she's lonely, and she knows she'll eventually kill us, but if being lonely is her problem, is snakes everywhere a means to fix it ...

I'm assuming what Kvasir said got Seidr and possibly others to join the goat based gods.